IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 22 August 2008   (all times are UTC)

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03:31
<ogra>
warren, the ebox works in a partially usable way in ubuntu once booted, X performance wasnt great but usable ... booting was the slow part (5min for nfs, 2min for nbd)
03:32
warren, i pretty much suspect its caused by kernel suport for the integrated SiS CPU being regressed or so between 2.6.16 and later kernels
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03:39
<acp_>
hi can any one direct me to a howto troubleshooting usb webcam, I have a logitech quickcam notebo v4L1 I have plug it in my ltsp server and its working fine but when I plug it on my thinclient its not detected, but usbflash drive is detected.
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03:50
<ogra>
its not supported yet
03:50
(on clients that is)
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04:20
<acp_>
hi sory I change os, I post awhile ago regarding troubleshooting usb web cam on thinclient can any one redirect me to it,tnx
04:23
<ogra>
its not supported yet
04:26
<acp_>
hi ogra please confirm that webcam for thin client is not yet supported in ltsp-5, do you know any forum discussing this? tnx again for your time
04:26
<ogra>
right, its not supported in ltsp5 yet
04:28
ere would be the best forum :) beyond that the ltsp-developer mailing list on sourceforge or file an upstream whishlist bug on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/+filebug
04:28
<acp_>
thanks
04:29
<ogra>
(here with the resriction that most of my fellow developers are on US timezones, so wait some hours to get them showing up :) )
04:30
i'D personally like to work on somethng like webcam and microphone suport but not for this release yet
04:31
<acp_>
ic, I would really like to have that feature, specially Im running a internet cafe ltsp setup
04:32
<cyberorg>
it should be possible once local app support is done, it would be a matter of adding drivers in chroot and an app to use it
04:32
hi ogra :)
04:33
<ogra>
sure localapp support could help but that will still take 6 months or so until its done properly
04:34
and beyond that i mean in a real thin environment :) i.e. have a 64M client as callcenter device with ltsp+asterisk+empathy+webcam :)
04:34* ogra is about the lower the minimal reqs of ubuntu to 24M atm :)
04:34
<ogra>
compcache rules
04:35
<cyberorg>
24M is stretching it a bit :), i could boot with 64M but it was not very usable
04:36
<ogra>
well, you have to live with restrictions on 32M atm with ubuntu indeed ... forget about sound or localdev :)
04:36
but 32M works fine
04:37
and some poor countries only have P1 with 32M hanging around and are happy to be able to at least have a browser running for the kids
04:38
(though i would go with XDMCP in such setups anyway ... if you dont have sound or localdev you dont really need ldm)
04:38
<cyberorg>
unfortunately suse's default kernel does not boot on less than i586
04:38
<ogra>
i586 is P1
04:39
<cyberorg>
oh, i should test it then, minimum i have used pIII 64M
04:39
<ogra>
ubuntu has a -i386 kernel package thats even working on i486 (silly naming though)
04:39
but i never tried a 486 client :)
04:40
and we dont officially support them
04:40
<cyberorg>
i have not seen one working for a long time :)
04:43
<acp_>
hi is it nesesary to update myltsp chroot?
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06:12
<cyberorg>
nbd-client got "-persist to infinitely retry connections dropped by server." we can safely add small interval(10 min) time out?
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07:23
<Q-FUNK>
ogra: did you ever get a positive reply about whether {release}-updates always exists by policy, so that it can be added to ltsp-build-clients as sources.list?
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08:34
<jammcq>
g'morning friends
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08:35
<tarzeau>
HELLO
08:36
CAN I GIVE AN LTSP CLIENT MY VERY OWN XORG.CONF ?
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08:36
<warren>
"As it seems to affect only very wide logo, it would be safe to carry patche in our package if upstream is not interested?"
08:36
this attitude itself is telling
08:36
<Q-FUNK>
?!
08:37
<jammcq>
yeah, ?
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08:37
<warren>
"nobody replied to my mail, thus I am going to assume upstream doesn't care and I will patch it myself
08:37
jammcq: pointing out more opensuse stupidity
08:37
jammcq: they are a fork, we call them a fork, and this attitude makes it even more clear
08:37
<jammcq>
everybody is stupid from time to time
08:38
and zonker is trying to help out
08:38
<Q-FUNK>
so much for zeeland-ltsp
08:38
<cyberorg>
warren, it wasnt my mail
08:40
<jammcq>
warren, everybody needs a chance to get into the fold of ltsp-5. at first, we weren't so sure about you. we gave you a chance, and you've come through very nicely
08:40
<warren>
i'm going back to work
08:40
<cyberorg>
the question was to get feedback from developers
08:41
please stop attacking people for no reason
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08:46
<warren>
cyberorg: you don't see how your attitude in that post was bad?
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08:47
<tarzeau>
15:21 < tarzeau> HELLO
08:47
15:21 < tarzeau> CAN I GIVE AN LTSP CLIENT MY VERY OWN XORG.CONF ?
08:48
hello
08:48
<cyberorg>
warren, how is asking if we can apply patch to ldm for the issue that affects only our theme after not receiving any feedback about the issue bad? carry on doing you work, i dont want to keep you from anything
08:49
<warren>
cyberorg: that isn't true, it does effect the standarda theme
08:50
cyberorg: that is a good question, I would try to get sbalneav to answer. I didn't write that part.
08:50
<tarzeau>
how can i give an ltsp client my very own xorg.conf ?
08:50
<jammcq>
tarzeau: yes, it's possible
08:51
unfortunately, I don't recall the syntax to make it work. perhaps warren or ogra or someone else can point out the solution
08:51
<warren>
X_CONFIG or somethig?
08:51
<cyberorg>
warren, when there was no reply i assume no one else had any problem except us, how is that bad? no offense was intended with that question
08:51
<warren>
cyberorg: you also can't expect every mail to be seen by the rihgt person
08:52
<ogra>
tarzeau, X_CONF=/etc/xorg.xonf-tarzeau in lts.conf .... put that into /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/xorg.xonf-tarzeau (and in cse of ubuntu run ltsp-update-image)
08:52
<cyberorg>
warren, of course i understand that, that is why i replied to the mail asking for feedback in case it was missed the first time when posted by lejo
08:53
<warren>
etyack: that X_CONF suggestion above might be relevant for you as well
08:53
<ogra>
tarzeau, for debian (which still uses nfs, there is no need for the update-image step ... i think i remember you run debian over there)
08:53
<tarzeau>
ogra: exactly, i'm trying that right now
08:55
<ogra>
warren, sbalneav doesnt touch the gui parts, thats (been) my area (and is currently rather unmaintained or probably taken by Ryan52 )
08:56
i wouldnt object changes to the gui to be dynamically computed according to the actual screensize vs logo size ... i would object just dropping the part that makes sure it doesnt look odd though ...
08:57
just dropping it wont be the proper solution
08:59
so i'd be fine with suse patching it on their own (i dont mind if they break it for themselves) but would indeed prefer a proper patch we all could use upstream that takes screen size and widget sizes into accoun and scales the logo properly based on these values for example
09:00
a first step would be to file an upstream whishlist bug ;)
09:00
<cyberorg>
ogra, only if there were smart devs on our team :)
09:00
<ogra>
cyberorg, well, as i said i'm fine if you do what you think you need ... but please make upstream aware that there is a problem that should be solved ;)
09:01
<tarzeau>
ogra: it didn't work? X_CONF or X_CONFIG?
09:01
<cyberorg>
ogra, that was the purpose for posting the issue on -developers list :)
09:01
<etyack>
warren: yes
09:02
<tarzeau>
ogra: is it X_CONF or X_CONFIG ? i tried X_CONF and that didn't take the xorg.conf.wide
09:02
<ogra>
tarzeau, ltsp_config has X_CONF=${X_CONF:-"$XF86CONFIG_FILE"}
09:03
tarzeau, so you should as well be able to use XF86CONFIG_FILE
09:03
i cant remember what debian version you used ... it might be that this still uses the ols variable name (though it must be really old then)
09:03
*old
09:04
cyberorg, well, filing a bug would be better
09:04
<tarzeau>
ogra: and leave away the LIKE = 1920 which says: X_MODE_0 = 1920x1200 ?
09:05
<ogra>
cyberorg, but the dev list is better than nothing indeed :)
09:05
tarzeau, that should be ignored anyway as soon as you use a custom config file
09:06
<tarzeau>
ogra: ok retrying
09:06
<ogra>
at least in ubuntu the X configuration doesnt fire as soon as it sees a custom file being set
09:06
i'm pretty sure debian does something similar
09:06
though if you dont get anywhere you might need to wait for vagrantc
09:07
i'm not into the debian specifics wrt X configuration ... ubuntu doesnt use xdebconfgurator like debian
09:09
<_UsUrPeR_>
morning all
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09:28
<hp>
hi ogra, ok to bother you?
09:28
got some questions again
09:28
<ogra>
try it ... i'm not the only person in this channel though, there are 71 others to bother ;)
09:29
<hp>
so I tried installing an HP LaserJet 1022n on Ubuntu LTSP 5,
09:29
the printer is attached to a thin client
09:30
I configured the lts.conf, under the MAC address of the thin client, I put in PRINTER_0_DEVICE=/dev/usblp0
09:30
<ogra>
its an usb printer ?
09:30
<hp>
yup, its a USB printer
09:31
a few times I even put in printer port, printer type in the lts.conf
09:31
<ogra>
well, might be that you need to install the hplip in the chroot for these printers
09:31
<hp>
and then I would configure the printing via the system menu, like you guided
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09:31
<ogra>
no need for the port type
09:31
the device suffices
09:32
<hp>
I did check for the jetpipe, like you instructed me the other night
09:32
so jetpipe is in /usr/sbin
09:32
ok hplip
09:32
I have to install it in the chroot, I just do an apt-get install of it?
09:32
<ogra>
did you check if jetpie is started for the device ?
09:32
yeah
09:33
<hp>
I ran top but it wasn't there
09:33
<ogra>
hmm
09:34
<hp>
so I guess now I have to try the hplip thing, I was thinking of other utililities/packages for HP printers that I might be missing
09:35
<ogra>
well, the printer should just work actually, but i have seen a lot probs with HP GDI printers
09:35
does it usually work ... i.e. if you attach it directly to the server ?
09:35
<hp>
yes, it does work when attached to the server
09:36
whenever I configure it via the system menu, I do a print test page and then the system notifies me that the printer might not be connecte
09:37
then when I try to print a page of a text file, the printing status says "recoverable: Network host'192.168.2.50' is busy; will retry in 30 seconds...
09:38
<ogra>
well, if jetpipe doesnt run that rather smells like a client side prob
09:38
(you ran top on the client console, right ? not in the session or on the server)
09:39
<hp>
in the session
09:39
not on the client console
09:39
<ogra>
thats on the server then
09:39
<hp>
yes, I believe so
09:39
<ogra>
set: SCREEN_02=shell and SCREEN_07=ldm in your lts.conf
09:39
<hp>
i did, you told me to do that last time
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09:40
<ogra>
then hit ctrl-alt-f2 on the freshly booted client
09:40
and run top there :)
09:40
or ps ax
09:40
<hp>
ok will do that on monday :), then I should see jetpipe running when i do top, oops, I totally forgot doing ps ax
09:40
I could've done that :)
09:41
<ogra>
either will do :)
09:41
you should see jetpipe with the devicenae as argument
09:41
*name
09:41
<hp>
anyway, what if jetpipe doesn't show, what would be my option then
09:41
<ogra>
(jetpipe is a pretty dumb 20 line pythonc script)
09:42
ask here again so we can debug why it doesnt run
09:42
(it shoudl though)
09:42
<hp>
I'll take your word for it
09:42
<ogra>
;)
09:42
<hp>
but I will also get hplip just to be sure, right?
09:43
<ogra>
well, first check the jetpipe side
09:43
fi thats running fine your prob lies elsewheer
09:43
<hp>
I see
09:46
sure hope it works... Thanks again.
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10:39
<quarKit>
news from java audio problem...
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10:40
<quarKit>
i tried wine software, and i noticed that using ESD driver in winecfg it works
10:40
<etyack>
warren: we tested your updated ldm on our server with no problem. waiting for our client to give us the go ahead to install on their server.
10:41
<quarKit>
but i used esddsp java ecc ecc and it didn't worked
10:41
ehy?
10:41
why?*
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11:10
<dberkholz>
warren: no, it's named "kernel-genkernel-$arch-$name". initramfs is "initramfs-genkernel-$arch-$name". where name is e.g. "2.6.25-gentoo-r7"
11:11
<warren>
dberkholz: ok... you're going to have to go in and change the script after I check it in to handle your kernels
11:11
dberkholz: the script will just ignore your kernels at first, which is at least safe
11:11
<dberkholz>
do you guys not use the bzImage in fedora?
11:12
just curious why it's called vmlinuz
11:12
<warren>
dberkholz: not sure why it is named that way, but most distros name it vmlinuz-NAME
11:12
dberkholz: it is the bzImage
11:12
<dberkholz>
the uncompressed name is vmlinuz
11:12
guess people just did it that way to avoid changing their tools
11:12
<warren>
isn't the uncompressed name vmlinux?
11:12
<ogra>
ubuntu and devian use vmlinuz as well
11:12
*debian
11:13
<warren>
devian. it's like debian, without the morals.
11:13
<ogra>
right and bzImage should be the work name
11:13
heh
11:13
<dberkholz>
eh, maybe you're right on that
11:13
<warren>
dberkholz: for whatever reason I'm dealing with what it is today.
11:13
<dberkholz>
the "z" apparently indicates compression
11:13
<ogra>
yep
11:14
ppc uses vmlinux
11:14
iir
11:14
c
11:14
<warren>
brb food
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11:14
<dberkholz>
from kernel README: "The kernel image file is usually /vmlinuz, /boot/vmlinuz, /bzImage or /boot/bzImage."
11:15
<ogra>
btw ubuntu has initrd.img-$(uname -r)-$(flavour) and vmlinuz-$(uname -r)-$(flavour)
11:15
i.e. vmlinuz-2.6.26-5-generic
11:15
or vmlinuz-2.6.26-5-i386
11:16
(or vmlinuz-2.6.26-5-lpia for atom)
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11:29
<quarKit>
why wine with esd sounds good and not esddsp java?
11:34
<cyberorg>
for opensuse names could be anything that is required by ltsp, currently it is kernel-ltsp and initrd-ltsp
11:35
<warren>
without the version of the kernel as part of the filename?
11:35
cyberorg: no name is required by ltsp
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11:35
<warren>
cyberorg: just the cleanup script wants to know all the usual variations of names so it can cleanup old kernels
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12:20
<pleed>
Hi, does anyone have an idea why i cant login on my terminal clients? everytime i m trying the screen goes black and again gdm is started and prompts for a login.
12:26
<cyberorg>
pleed, what distro?
12:27
<johnny>
pleed, sure it is gdm?
12:27
and not ldm?
12:29
<pleed>
johnny: sorry it is ldm, long time ago i use a login manager. i m using debian.
12:30
<cyberorg>
strange, _UsUrPeR_ just reported the same on opensuse
12:30
<pleed>
well, maybe it is because of a missing window manager, thought i ve already install xfce but i didnt. telling you if it works in some minutes
12:31
<cyberorg>
pleed, try login directly on the server
12:31
<pleed>
cyberorg: it s a xen domU
12:32
okay it s working now
12:34
what about the terminal client performance needed? i had the idea to grab some old toshiba satellite (about 16-32mb memory) and use them as terminal clients.
12:34
Now i ve got it on a P3 and it s using all of its 256 mb ram
12:36
<ogra>
if you want to use all features (sound, printing, localdevices) you should estimate 128M
12:36
<cyberorg>
might just work with 32M, but to be really usable you need more ram
12:37
<ogra>
i think even debian needs about 48M for kernel and initramfs to boot (not sure they use the ubuntu hack for automatic nbd swap ... which would enable you to use 32M)
12:37
<pleed>
well i could use gentoo
12:38
maybe that will safe some performance
12:38
<ogra>
well, gentoo uses a 2.6 kernel and initramfs as well
12:38
not sure how much ram it needs with ltsp5 atm, its pretty new
12:38
johnny would be able to tell you
12:39
ubuntu definately works with 32M but dont expect the features to work
12:39
<pleed>
the people wont need any sound, just email,internet and programming stuff
12:39
<ogra>
64M are ok on ubuntu but i would really recoment 128
12:40
programming likely means you want them to be able to take stuff home
12:40
<pleed>
think i ll test it in qemu later reducing the ram to 64/32/16 and see how it works
12:40
<ogra>
so localdev should work, that needs some ram
12:40* ogra would recomend vbox
12:41
<pleed>
ogra: well we all use git
12:41
<ogra>
the network setup is done with two mouseclicks
12:41
???
12:41* ogra wonders what a vcs has to do with a virtual machine
12:41
<pleed>
ogra: because you said "take stuff home"
12:41
<johnny>
pleed, he's just saying that vbox is what we tend to use
12:41
<ogra>
ah
12:42
<johnny>
ogra! HEY
12:42
<ogra>
you mean you use git on a central server online ... now i get it :)
12:42
hey johnny :)
12:42
<johnny>
so. will the the intrepid ltsp stuff work in hardy?
12:43
<ogra>
i didnt plan to backport anything, no
12:43
<johnny>
not as backports
12:43
i mean forced install
12:43
just wondering if the packages really required anything in intrepid
12:43
<ogra>
no idea, thats nothing i usually try
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12:43
<johnny>
where's your ltsp install again?
12:43
lol
12:43
<ogra>
i guess it would work though
12:44
there is nothing massively changed server side
12:44
<johnny>
that's what i was hoping
12:44
<ogra>
so an intrepid image might work
12:44
<johnny>
are you refreshing the packages anytime soon?
12:44
or are they stuck?
12:44
<ogra>
i have a request from laga for an SRU and Q-Funk wa asking to enable hardy-updates by default
12:45
<pleed>
ogra: could you please specify vbox a little bit more because google has a lot of different things on it
12:45
<ogra>
so these two changes might get in
12:45
<johnny>
pleed, virtualbox
12:45
<ogra>
but currently i'm working towards featur freeze
12:45
which is next week, so thats my main focus
12:45
<johnny>
well that sounds like local apps won't be ready then?
12:45
if not, i'll have to set everything up manually
12:45
<ogra>
it will be ready as much as we have now
12:46
and i'll fix bugs as they show up before release
12:46
<pleed>
well dont understand why virtualbox is what i want. there are some old notebooks and i d like to make them usable.
12:46
<ogra>
maning sshfs withbe installed by default, the ldm changes will be in
12:46
<johnny>
pleed, he meant virtualbox isntead of qemu
12:46
<ogra>
and the xrexec script will be there
12:46
<johnny>
how about ssh 5.1 ?
12:46
<pleed>
sry, seems i m too confused today xD
12:46
<ogra>
pleed, setting up the networking stuff in qemu is quite painful compared to vbox
12:47
vbox needs two mouseclicks
12:47
qemu needs tun/tap setup etc
12:47* johnny clicks on ogra
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12:47
<pleed>
ogra: using qemu often with networking stuffe, but trying vbox. thanks
12:47
<ogra>
for testing i'D use a vbox server with vbox clients
12:47
<johnny>
yeah.. i do that..
12:47* ogra too
12:48* ogra feels clicked
12:48
<johnny>
altho more often.. i use vbox for the clients only.. as the server stuff is installed on my desktop anyways
12:49
i'm expecting to upgrade to intrepid asap
12:50
<ogra>
if you have non 686 clients wait for the next kernel update
12:50
there was an oversight that made th kernel team miss to enable m586
12:50
<johnny>
no
12:50
they are all 585
12:51
err
12:51
686
12:51
<ogra>
heh
12:52
<johnny>
our clients are actually waay overpowered
12:53
they need local apps
12:53
they need more ram first tho..
12:53
i'm probably going to have to intervene manually before intrepid is released, that is why i asked about the packages
12:54
<ogra>
yeah, manually will work
12:54
but the proper transparent implementation will likely be intrepid+1
12:54
<johnny>
i'll have to intervene manually then for that :)
12:54
ubuntu moves too slow for me
12:54
<ogra>
(and unlike others here i wont promote it until its really properly done :P )
12:55
<johnny>
hmm.. i'll also need a newer ssh.. :(
12:56
<ogra>
ask for a backport :)
12:56* cyberorg kicks ogra
12:56
<ogra>
:)
12:57
cyberorg, i think warren is in the same boat as you actually ...
12:57
<cyberorg>
ogra, release early, often :)
12:57
<warren>
I rather not share boats with them.
12:57
ogra: what boat?
12:57
<ogra>
warren, promoting localapps even though we only have the skeleton yet
12:58* johnny puts a hole in warren's boat so he has to share
12:58
<cyberorg>
ogra, there is a big red warning here: http://en.opensuse.org/LTSP/Localapps
12:58* ogra gives warren a snorkel in case he really doesnt want to share :)
12:58
<warren>
ogra: I didn't promote it at all
12:58
ogra: I didn't write any docs
12:59
ogra: I didn't tell my users to try it
12:59
<ogra>
warren, well, i was suspecting you to announce it for FC10
12:59
<johnny>
ogra, i only need firefox and flash, nothing else really
12:59
those are what eat up my system
12:59
<ogra>
ohh, docs ... that reminds me ...
13:00* ogra makes a big fat note on forehead to finish the .desktp file spec on the weekend
13:00
<warren>
ogra: I don't intend on promoting local apps until we have openssh-5.1 fully pushed in F-9 and I write some docs.
13:00
<ogra>
FC9 ß
13:00
?
13:00
<warren>
and looking over the spec having to do with .desktop files, it seems over engineered to me.
13:00
<ogra>
its transparent
13:00
not over engineered
13:01
<warren>
ogra: our openssh maintainer deemed 5.1 has being not very different from 5.0 and we did a ton of tests on it to be sure.
13:01
ogra: a month after we began testing it and it isn't in stable updates yet.
13:01
<ogra>
you wont have to do anything and just have localapps as soon as you install an ap with .dsktop file in the chroot
13:01
<warren>
but soon will
13:01
when and who will implement that part?
13:01
and why does it bother you if people do it the current way?
13:02
<ogra>
and have a blacklist variable in lts.conf if you want to suppress an app
13:02
<warren>
note that I'm not doing it yet
13:02
<_UsUrPeR_>
warren: I'm building a client image right now. I'll let you know how your fix goes.
13:02
<warren>
_UsUrPeR_: which fix?
13:02
oh
13:02
_UsUrPeR_: wasn't my fix
13:02
<ogra>
it bothers me that any admin has to do anything beyond installing an app
13:02
<warren>
_UsUrPeR_: and that was totally an X problem
13:02
_UsUrPeR_: the ldm fix only makes it fail gracefully after X died
13:02
<_UsUrPeR_>
warren: oh. etyack had emailed it to me. I assumed he got it from you.
13:03
<ogra>
i want my users to just have to run synaptic for the chroot and select the apps they want as localapps in a final implementation
13:03
<warren>
ogra: when and who will implement that?
13:03
<ogra>
me in intrepid+1
13:03
<warren>
ogra: until it happens, screaming "stop using this thing that works!" is a little annoying.
13:03
<ogra>
if nobody else steps up before
13:04
well, i'm not used to promote half implemented specs ... but feel free to do so, i wont shout anymore
13:04
<warren>
ogra: I might just do it if I achieve this pile of other things
13:05* ogra simply prefers to have things working correctly before he gives t to his users .,.. might indeed take longer that way
13:06
<ogra>
i'm just scared by things like the novell howto for setting up pulse on ubuntu ltsp on edgy (6.10) that *still* bites my users today
13:06
simply because they find it through google
13:06
and try to apply it on a system that has pulse set up already ... which then trashes everything in the end
13:07
we didnt have pulse support back then ... now we have a fully working pulse but the docs to break that still exist
13:08
<cyberorg>
who is Fnjordy?
13:08
<ogra>
so i like to step back until everything works fine before promoting anything ... thats what learned from it
13:08
<johnny>
ogra, that is a lie.. pulse sucks in hardy
13:08
<ogra>
johnny, not in ltsp :)
13:08
<johnny>
oh
13:09
well it sucks in general for normal desktop
13:09
<cyberorg>
ogra, those wiki pages are set up by http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/User:Fnjordy
13:09
<ogra>
admittedly the pulse setup on hardy desktops is madly bad
13:09
<johnny>
ok good that you admit that :)
13:09
<ogra>
cyberorg, yeah, i didnt blame anyone :) it even predates your involvement
13:09
<johnny>
i have no idea how pulse performs in ltsp, as i have no sound
13:10
<cyberorg>
you can edit incorrect information or post link to the proper docs there, or i will be happy to do it if you tell me what to change
13:10
<ogra>
well, a note "dont use on newer implementations" at the top would suffice i guess
13:10
<johnny>
dberkholz, any updates on my stuff?
13:11
<warren>
hmm
13:11
the nbdroot image doesn't need /boot/vmlinuz* /boot/initrd* and stuff
13:11
but does it need /boot/System.map-*?
13:11
<cyberorg>
warren, i get rid of /boot completely
13:12
<ogra>
warren, it still uses tftp booting, indeed it needs /boot/vmlinuz and firends
13:13
<warren>
ogra: in the nbdroot image?
13:13* warren tries booting without /boot
13:13
<ogra>
warren, no in tftproot ... but that has to come from aywhere
13:13
oh, you plan to exclude the dir from mksquashfs ?
13:14
<warren>
yes
13:14
<ogra>
well, thats only gaining yu a meg or two ...
13:14
<warren>
sure
13:14
but not needed
13:14
<ogra>
squashfs has a 1:% compression rate
13:14
<warren>
anything else that isn't needed...
13:14
<ogra>
1:5
13:14
<warren>
well the /boot contents are already compressed
13:15
<ogra>
true
13:16
the intresting parts of a kernel are in /lib/modules size wise ....
13:17
<cyberorg>
ogra, fixed
13:17
<ogra>
gracias
13:17
it was only an example why i dont like to have premature implementaions promoted though :)
13:19
<cyberorg>
ogra, thanks to localapp i got idea about icecream :)
13:19
<ogra>
oh, we had distcc users years ago here already :)
13:20
<cyberorg>
ogra, this one is little better that distcc ;)
13:20
<warren>
oh god
13:20
I'm being hassled about the nbdroot patches because it doesn't support ipv6.
13:20
<ogra>
lol
13:20
yay for networking purists :)
13:21
warren, tell them its unlikely you will ever have ltsp setups that exhaust class C v4 networks on one server :)
13:21
<warren>
ogra: I countered "nfsroot doesn't work with ipv6 either"?
13:22
<cyberorg>
warren, it is ugly, but see all the rm -rf here https://forgesvn1.novell.com/viewsvn/kiwi-ltsp/trunk/kiwi-ltsp/ltsp/suse-11.0/config.sh?revision=260&view=markup
13:22
<ogra>
that as well :)
13:22
though the new nfs might
13:22
(nfs v4 does support ipv6 i heard (never tried it though)
13:24
<warren>
cyberorg: heh.. I guess you don't need the rpmdb ...
13:25
<cyberorg>
no
13:25
<warren>
well that explains how you get your image so small
13:25
<cyberorg>
image can be rebuilt in few minutes it is not worth the effort keeping all the extra baggage for something that would be used once or twice in image's life cycle
13:26rafaelmf has joined #ltsp
13:27
<warren>
cyberorg: well thanks for this bit of info.
13:27
<cyberorg>
an no there is no evil plan in showing you this :)
13:28
it took me over 6 months to figure out what can be removed and still keep image working
13:28* warren takes the ketchup bottle.
13:30
<warren>
I might not trim it down that much.
13:33
<cyberorg>
i still have to trim it down it is extremely bloated
13:34
see this: http://wire.dattitu.de/archives/2005/05/24/DirkLinux-v0.1.html
13:34
<ogra>
how big is your resulting image ?
13:34
ubuntu is about 140M
13:34
which is totally fine imho
13:34
<cyberorg>
136M
13:35
ogra, just see the link :)
13:35
16M aught to be good enough
13:35* ogra sighs about briken certs
13:35
<ogra>
*broken
13:35
heh, thats a lot of removals
13:35
<cyberorg>
ogra, this http://wire.dattitu.de/archives/2005/05/24/DirkLinux-v0.1.html
13:36
that is my inspiration
13:38
<ogra>
heh
13:38
<cyberorg>
i'd be happy to get to 50M
13:38* ogra did stuff like that before :)
13:38
<ogra>
but thats only for personal use
13:38
its hard to keep something like that maintainable for masses
13:39
<cyberorg>
i got it down to 97M if i remove locales
13:39
<warren>
yeah, who wants locales?
13:39
<ogra>
today i just use a 2G USB key to run my router
13:39
<cyberorg>
warren, foreigners
13:39
<ogra>
they are so cheap, its not worth the time you have to put in to strip it down that hard
13:40
<cyberorg>
yeah, i got 8G stick for Rs 1400 ($1 = Rs 45)
13:40
prices are dropping every day
13:41
<ogra>
right
13:42
<cyberorg>
about $30 for 8G, it would have entire OS and thousands of mp3 to go with it :)
13:43* cyberorg goes to bed
13:45
<ogra>
yeah, now think that my time costs $60/h :)
13:45
i'm good, but i wont build a 16M image in 30min ...
13:51vagrantc has joined #ltsp
13:55Lns has joined #ltsp
13:55
<Lns>
Hey all...are there any existing LP/other bugs regarding gnome-panel crashing or otherwise experiencing very odd behavior in a TC session? Yesterday my TC's gnome-panel stopped responding all together (everything else seemed to work ok) and today a client of mine is experiencing issues as well.
13:56* ogra hasnt heard about that, no
14:01
<Lns>
i've had some sparatic issues now and in the past regarding gnome-panel...
14:02
just weird.
14:03
one small thing i noticed that might or might not have anything to do with it is my weather-applet on my own system is very slow to respond to clicks/right-clicks, and it seems to lock the GUI all together until it responds
14:03
which is normally 2-4 seconds
14:04
other applets seem to work ok
14:04
<ogra>
mine works fine
14:04
is that on a normal desktop ?
14:04
<Lns>
yeah..acting as a TC
14:04
actually my system monitor applet does the same thing
14:04
<ogra>
strange
14:04
<Lns>
yeah..weird, and even clock now that i'm checking things out
14:05
ack..left-click on clock now just locked my panel completely
14:05
menus won't respond
14:05
sysmon applet is still progressing but won't respond to mouse
14:06
what's the best way to restart gnome-panel for a certain user?
14:06
<ogra>
sudo pkill -u gnom-panel
14:06
i guess
14:06
<Lns>
i'll see if this is the case on another TC i have
14:07
ok that seemed to fix...weird
14:08* vagrantc tracked down some annoying issues with gnome when gnome-power-manager wasn't installed
14:08
<ogra>
really ?
14:09
that should actually improve things
14:09
<vagrantc>
yeah, logout would fail to happen consistantly.
14:09
<warren>
wasn't?
14:09
<ogra>
which gnome version ? 2.22 should have lots of fixes wrt g-p-m
14:09
<vagrantc>
if you login and log out without running any applications
14:09
<warren>
vagrantc: My logout failures with openssh-5.1 are with KDE and XFCE, although GNOME is fi ne.
14:09* vagrantc digs up the bug report
14:10
<vagrantc>
first noticed it on ltsp, of course, but then i tested it on a regular system.
14:11
http://bugs.debian.org/486007
14:11
gnome-session 2.22.3-1
14:11
<Lns>
one sec
14:11
<ogra>
hmm, that should be fine
14:11
probably somethng with dbus
14:12
<vagrantc>
although it was reassigned to gnome-paenl 2.20.3-3
14:12
<ogra>
2.20 definately had issues
14:12
though not gnome-panel but g-p-m
14:13
<vagrantc>
gnome-power-manager 2.22.1-2
14:13
<ogra>
the 2.20 release, yes
14:14
<vagrantc>
it's kind of a corner case ... how often do you log out without starting any applications?
14:14
<ogra>
rarely
14:14
<vagrantc>
but it's perplexing when it happens
14:14
<ogra>
but i do ... for i.e. testing input device changes or some such
14:14
<vagrantc>
yeah, me too.
14:15
testing ltsp, and various options for login ... making sure sound and localdev and localapps all work...
14:15
<ogra>
yep
14:15
<Lns>
it seems to not be the case (at least with a single logon) on another TC (koolu)
14:16
my w/s has an older ati radeon card in it
14:17
<warren>
I'm likely tagging both ltsp and ldm later today.
14:17
perhaps this evening
14:19
<Lns>
I'm using gnome v2.22.3
14:20
gnome-panel v 1:2.22.2-0ubuntu1.1
14:21
and in the past i've had random issues with people logging in and not getting gnome-panel at all (just gnome background, nautilus seems to work fine)
14:21
but that was a different version too
14:21
ctl+alt+bkspce and logging in seemed to work so it was pretty random
14:22
and did sometimes have the not-able-to-logout issue too which was fixed upon hardy upgrade
14:25
Does polkit interface directly w/gconf?
14:25
sorry if this is OT
14:25
<ogra>
no, it doesnt
14:26
polkit controls access to system parts ...
14:26
like sudo just more silly :P
14:26
<Lns>
more silly? ;)
14:26* ogra is not a polkit fan ...
14:27
<Lns>
how come?
14:27
<ogra>
well it just tries to reassemble sudo
14:27
attached to dbus
14:27
<Lns>
ah
14:27
<ogra>
and the UI is just crap
14:28
<Lns>
yeah it seems pretty beta to me atm
14:28
good concept though imho
14:28* ogra would have preferred improvements to the old and proven sudo instead of reinventing the wheel
14:29
<johnny>
yeah.. sometimes i wonder if davidz is smokin crack
14:29
<Lns>
i see the advantages regarding executing code vulnerabilities in a program
14:29
<ogra>
johnny, nope, marlboro
14:29
but thats probably near :)
14:29
<johnny>
warren, you should kick davidz's ass..
14:30
first we get hal.. and now devicekit
14:30
they should revoke his programmer's license
14:30
<ogra>
david moved on to do devicekit, Xkit crazy-something-else-kit
14:30
<johnny>
yeah
14:30
it's annoying
14:30
<ogra>
he doesnt do polkit and hal anymore
14:30
left that to others
14:30
<johnny>
well.. hal becomes devicekit
14:30
that is what read
14:30
just a wrapper on top of udev and friends
14:30
<ogra>
well
14:31
<johnny>
like it should have been from the beginning
14:31
<ogra>
udevmerged with hal become devkit
14:31
<johnny>
because gasp.. maintaining fdi files is hard
14:31
DUH
14:31
<ogra>
dbus moves into the kernel
14:31
(at leats the system bus)
14:31
<johnny>
prove it
14:32
i've never seen such a thing on kerneltrap
14:32
<ogra>
i cant but i paied the beer when kai sievers and david decided it :)
14:32
<johnny>
figured it would have been mentioned there, if that was the case
14:32
<ogra>
its their evil plan
14:32
<johnny>
i thought the kernel folks were moving more stuff to user space..
14:33
<ogra>
the system dbus was never really userspace :)
14:33
i mean it never made sense there
14:33
<johnny>
loll.. sure it is
14:33
it runs in userspace
14:33
<ogra>
right, but thats stupid
14:33
<johnny>
are they trying to match windows or something? throw all the crap in the kernel
14:33
<ogra>
only what belongs in the kernel
14:34
<johnny>
i'd really love to read the lkml thread on such things, when they exist
14:34
<ogra>
i dont think there is any lkml discussion yet
14:34
<johnny>
yeah.. but be ready for it
14:34
<ogra>
but its the future plan
14:34
<johnny>
sounds like a flamewar in the making
14:34
<mccann>
you guys are way off base about david
14:34
<johnny>
i know alot of folks who are upset with him mccann
14:35
<ogra>
it just makes sense to have the kernel attached dbus parts in kernel
14:35
<johnny>
after the fiasco of earlier hals
14:35
<mccann>
johnny: they are wrong
14:35
<johnny>
we were holding tons of patches to hal
14:35
that were not accepted
14:35spectra has joined #ltsp
14:35
<johnny>
until 0.5.11
14:35
<mccann>
who is "we"?
14:35
<ogra>
mccann, i had beer with him four weeks ago in boston ...
14:36
well, five
14:36
<mccann>
ogra: yeah I was invited and couldn't make it
14:36
<ogra>
gah
14:36
would have loved to meet you
14:36
<mccann>
same here
14:36
<johnny>
mccann, sounds like ogra is not off base at all..
14:37
as far as the devicekit plans.. i read it directly from davidz's blog
14:37
<ogra>
well, its not set in stone what wa discussed at that table in prague with a lot of beer ivolved :)
14:37
<mccann>
david is one of our open source heros and he doesn't deserve to be talked about like this
14:37
<ogra>
but much of it made a lot of sense
14:37
<johnny>
it sure looked like alot of work behind the scenes
14:37
<mccann>
anyway, carry on...
14:37
<johnny>
and then a HUGE code drop
14:37
thus the causes of much irritation
14:38
<Lns>
jerry...jerry.... =p
14:38
<johnny>
and then he goes ahead and decides that wait.. hal was all wrong
14:38
and decide to go to udev
14:38
folks were telling him that all along
14:38
<ogra>
it was a good first step
14:38
but not as perfect as it can be
14:38
<johnny>
sure.. but it didn't have to happen that way
14:38
<ogra>
look ltsp4 wasnt worng but unmaintainable ...
14:39
<johnny>
well i can't say anything about that, as i wasn't around to have to deal with it
14:39
<ogra>
if the concept wouldnt have been redone we wouldnt have ltsp at all anymore
14:39
simply because i wasnt maintainable as it was
14:39
<johnny>
it seems like just a tiny bit more thought into it would have gotten rid of many of the initial problems
14:40otavio has quit IRC
14:40
<warren>
oh crap
14:40
<ogra>
but its aim wasnt to solve the probs of the world
14:40
<warren>
ipv6 addresses have colons in them right?
14:40
<johnny>
warren, yumm colons :)
14:40
<ogra>
it was onl the plan to make it a bit better
14:40
warren, they forcefully do
14:40
<johnny>
ogra, i know.. but udev and sysfs were there since before :)
14:41
<ogra>
yeah, and now its the time to merge them
14:41
<johnny>
best thing that ever happened to 2.6 kernels in general
14:41
<ogra>
nothing worng with that apart from the naming scheme :)
14:42
<johnny>
other than the new development model..
14:42
yay for git..
14:42
and bitkeeper for that matter
14:42
<ogra>
well, its up the upstream to decide what upstream wants to use
14:43
i would have choosen bzr and would have gotten grief for that as well
14:43
<johnny>
bzr was too slow
14:43
<ogra>
you cnat please everone
14:43
<johnny>
bzr is still slow.. but not as slow as it used to be
14:43
<ogra>
bzr is fine in comb with the right server bits
14:43
<johnny>
ogra, can you tell me that the bzr guys read revctrl list? :)
14:43
i hope they do..
14:43
sometimes i feel they design in vacuum..
14:43
<ogra>
ask in #bzr ;)
14:43otavio has joined #ltsp
14:44
<ogra>
they all come from other VCSes for which they used to develop before
14:44
and bzr is imho still the most userfriendly one
14:44
<johnny>
they should have brought somebody in from monotone
14:45
i didn't find bzr any less or more friendly than any others
14:45
<ogra>
i do
14:45
<johnny>
i've used cvs,svn,git,mtn,bitkeeper
14:45
and a bit of darcs..
14:45
i am sad that git stole the steam from mtn tho
14:46
<ogra>
i'm not masochistic enough to use git
14:46
<johnny>
for simple operations it is easy enough
14:46
for remote pulls of large repos.. for anonymous checkouts.. i'd much rather use it than bzr, due to the speed
14:47
<ogra>
well, i use bzr daily ....
14:47
ubuntu is about to move away from source packages completely
14:47
<johnny>
that is a smart idea for sure
14:47
<laga>
that's going to be nice
14:47
i really need to read up on bzr
14:47
<johnny>
not much to read :)
14:48
all the systems have the one page summar that gets you started
14:48
<ogra>
well, features like bzr shelf etc are usually not on that one page
14:48
or the awesome avahi backend
14:50
<laga>
i wish it was git. :)
14:50
<ogra>
bah
14:50
<johnny>
the main difference between git/bzr/hg and mtn.. is that mtn doesn't like to forget
14:50
rebase is thus really hard to implement
14:50
or partial pulls for that matter
14:54* ogra goes cooking ...
15:01mhterres has quit IRC
15:01* Lns jumps up and down as he just received his LTSP Term 1220 PXE
15:01
<warren>
those things need sexier names
15:01
<Lns>
lol
15:01
yes
15:01
<Ryan52>
johnny: what's mtn?
15:02* Lns suggests "the ltsp sexy"
15:03
<Ryan52>
oh, monotone
15:04
<Lns>
brb...on my new tc =p
15:04Lns has quit IRC
15:06spectra_ has joined #ltsp
15:10mhterres has joined #ltsp
15:10
<johnny>
Ryan52, as you asked me awhile ago
15:10
i used a jabber irc transport
15:10
that's why my hostname/ip doesn't change
15:16Lns has joined #ltsp
15:17* Ryan52 wonders how that has anything to do with what I just asked
15:17
<johnny>
no..
15:17
this was a question you asked awhile ago.. when i was on flaky wifi
15:17* Lns is in love
15:18
<Lns>
this thing is faster than my P4 1.8ghz workstation! heh
15:18
<johnny>
time to go to red emma's
15:18johnny has left #ltsp
15:20spectra has quit IRC
15:25otavio has quit IRC
15:27otavio has joined #ltsp
15:30* Lns is having panel issues still :(
15:31
<Lns>
....wow
15:31
running gnome-volume-properties launches removable drives and media prefs
15:31
nice
15:31_UsUrPeR_ has quit IRC
15:32
<Lns>
oh that's talking about VOLUMES not volume. =p
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15:33
<Lns>
Volume control panel applet is very slow to respond with anything... running gnome-volume-control from terminal runs quick as expected..and actually lists the sound chipset i need to control the volume
15:36
hrm. disabling ESD software sound mixing makes the applet respond fast
15:37
but still doesn't list the sound chipset (via) I need to control the actual volume
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17:28
<warren>
posted draft of tftpboot cleanup script to ltsp-developer
17:28
it needs some cleanup itself...
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17:37
<gbolte>
kekeke
17:38
you need to write a self cleaning script that first cleans itself then goes and finds other scripts to clean
17:38
rofl
17:38
where is decent AI when you need it
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18:33
<warren>
The Compaq Evo T20 thin client arrived today
18:34
it has some weird 4 pronged 5V power plug that I've never seen before
18:34
so I can't power this thing
18:34
(Evo T20 is NSC Geode GX1)
18:35
<gbolte>
warren, need one of these maybe http://www.trademoon.com/ProdPics/Converted/231254-001.jpg
18:36
I guess thats its PSU
18:36
<warren>
gbolte: nope, it is a round plug with four pins in it
18:36
AC adapter
18:36
<gbolte>
yeah thats what I just showed you
18:36
http://www.trademoon.com/Product59654.aspx
18:36
Compaq Switching Power Supply Evo T20 T1000 T1010 T1500 T1510 Thin Clients
18:36
<warren>
$65!?
18:36
holy crap
18:37
I bought this because it was $15 and I wanted to have a GX1 test machine
18:37
<gbolte>
lol
18:38
warren, http://cgi.ebay.com/Compaq-231254-001-Power-Supply-T20-T1000-T1500_W0QQitemZ320277542864QQcmdZViewItem
18:38
<warren>
oh god
18:38
this isn't worth it
18:38
i'm better off just trashing this thing
18:39
I have no idea if it actually works
18:39
<gbolte>
lol or figure out the wireing and hack a cheap pc psu to run the damn thing thats what I would be doing right about now
18:39
start splicing wires
18:39
:D
18:40
<warren>
this is incredible lose
18:40
tells you DON'T BUY COMPAQ
18:40
<gbolte>
warren, just hack a damn psu
18:40
<warren>
proprietary expensive power supplies
18:40
<gbolte>
lol
18:40
<warren>
I have no idea what these four pins are
18:41
<gbolte>
well the original psu only put out 5V dc
18:41
so you are only talking + and -
18:41
should be fairly trivial to take it apart and find what those pins go to in the box
18:41
<warren>
well, I guess I don't lose anything if I destroy this machine
18:42
<gbolte>
yup
18:42
<warren>
50/50 chance
18:43
<gbolte>
eh I would just take it apart and look at where the pins go to
18:43
and then apply 5V accordingly via old atx psu
18:44
though I have also burnt up a few electronics in my time
18:44
lol
18:45
<warren>
I don't know what amperage this expects
18:45
<gbolte>
shouldnt matter, atx psu should allow it to draw plenty
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18:51
<gbolte>
warren, good luck on hacking the power on the t20
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<gbolte>
I am out
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19:46
<ab2>
hi running firefox as a localapp - i've been told will only appear in the ibex ubuntu release?
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20:36
<fedora_>
warren, ping
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21:54
<johnny>
uggh.. stupid ubuntu..
21:54
i just did some normal upgrades...
21:54
as in.. to the supposably stable hardy
21:54
now i can't login
21:55
i can't even ssh to it :(
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22:10
<johnny>
pam didn't like it
22:10
pam_smbpass got added with an option called missingok
22:10
i had to fix it with a livecd..
22:10
if this was somebody's only computer..
22:10
they would be awful upset
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22:44
<warren>
johnny: sounds like that update made it 100% secure
22:44
<johnny>
lol
22:44
well it's back now
22:44
it didn't turn out to be that
22:44
it was a kernel update that killed my sata controller
22:45
<warren>
still, that's bad.
22:45
<johnny>
was getting ERDY errors
22:45
<warren>
and you coudln't reboot into the old kernel?
22:45
<johnny>
well.. once i figured it out..
22:45
my gf still gets the grub menu choice
22:45
on her ubuntu box
22:45
but this one doesn't.. maybe somebody killed the timeout
22:45
<vagrantc>
x
22:46
<johnny>
this one was been on nearly the same install since dapper
22:46
<warren>
vagrantc: the cleanup thing might be missing things like vmlinux and gentoo's names
22:46
vagrantc: but it would at least do nothing in that case.
22:46
<johnny>
i replied to your email :)
22:46
<vagrantc>
warren: ah. ok.
22:46
<johnny>
ok.. i can finally go home
22:47
<vagrantc>
warren: better to be conservative when purging files. :)
22:47
<johnny>
bb in a bit
22:47
<warren>
johnny: yeah, but hte way the script is written, it is not easy to add another trigger file
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22:47
<vagrantc>
i would like to modularize update-kernels, actually... make separate plugins for mknbi, mkelfimage, wraplinux,etc.
22:49
<warren>
vagrantc: well, I'm not using update-kernels at all.
22:49
vagrantc: I found out that our initrd tool has its own plugins. like 6 lines of shell does everything I need.
22:49
<vagrantc>
nice
22:50
we might be able to plug into the initramfs-tools hooks for debian/ubuntu ... i was thinking about it the other day, actually.
22:50
<warren>
it even removes those same images when the kernel is uninstalled automatically
22:51
<vagrantc>
very nice.
22:51
<warren>
vagrantc: you might even have the same hooks, dkms uses them as well.
22:52
<vagrantc>
i haven't delved into initramfs-tools in a while, but even if it doesn't currently support the hooks, it probably wouldn't be hard to add them in the future.
22:52
<warren>
I also finished NBD root support for Fedora today.
22:52
<vagrantc>
nice
22:52
<warren>
I had to completely rewrite ltsp-update-image
22:52
it is like 7 lines long now
22:52* vagrantc is attempting to play with openwrt
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