IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 17 October 2009   (all times are UTC)

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00:04
<yawasare>
hi there
00:04
<alkisg>
Hi :)
00:04
<yawasare>
is anyone in the house good with ltsp?
00:05
hey alkisg?
00:05
you there
00:06
<alkisg>
!ask
00:06
<ltspbot>
alkisg: "ask" is Don't ask to ask a question, simply ask it, and if someone knows the answer, they'll respond. Please hang around for at least 15 minutes after asking a question, as not everybody constantly monitors the channel.
00:07
<yawasare>
i have ltsp server and thinclient boot into it, i have graphic face but anytime i put username and password it says fail am sure the userand password work even when i try to login on the main server it works put its doesnt work on client help guys
00:08
<alkisg>
Try to run these commands on the server:
00:08
sudo ltsp-update-sshkeys
00:08
sudo ltsp-update-image
00:08
<yawasare>
ok
00:08
<alkisg>
Then reboot the client
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00:27
<yawasare_>
alkisg thanks men is working
00:27
it allowed login in
00:28* cyberorg is in awe of alkisg's magic :)
00:31
<yawasare_>
so for this can i set applications that users can open and stuff? alkisg
00:31
<alkisg>
Sorry I was afk. cyberorg, heh :)
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00:32
<alkisg>
yawasare_, I didn't understand this, can you rephrase it?
00:32
If you mean to install programs for the users to open, sure...
00:33
<yawasare_>
yea
00:33
well what am doin is am in canada and setting computer up for school in Ghana West Africa, am donating to a school
00:34
<alkisg>
Go to system > settings > synaptic package manager and install whatever you want there
00:34
Nice!
00:35
<yawasare_>
what i wanted to know is that is i set it up and have number of clients can set app for users like when they login they can only open thse apps
00:35
if i
00:36
<alkisg>
Yes, when the users log in it's like they're sitting on the server
00:36
So they see the same programs etc
00:37
<yawasare_>
yea i see all programs on the main server, but i dont what thom to see all the programs
00:38
<alkisg>
Why? Can you give an example?
00:40
<yawasare_>
ok i have kids and adult using, i dont want the kids have access to all the programs on the main server
00:40
<alkisg>
If you mean to hide the menus, sure, you can do that, but the programs will still be there
00:41
Access is better managed on a lower level, e.g. a kid shouldn't be able to run "gparted" because he wouldn't be a member of the admin group
00:41
Not because it would be hidden from the menus
00:47
<yawasare_>
hiding will do it
00:56
well thank you soo much alkisg
00:56
am out
00:56
<alkisg>
You're welcome
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13:52
<silver_hook>
Hullo.
13:53
I think I was talking to someone here that I could try to get him a VM (at Cyberpipe) for testing or building LTSP on Gentoo?
13:53
Could that person identify itself ...I'll try to persuade the main admin in Cyberpipe if you still need it.
13:54
<Ryan52>
silver_hook: sounds like it could be johnny.
13:55
johnny: ^---
13:55
<silver_hook>
Could be...
13:55
johnny: Still need that Gentoo VM?
13:55
<johnny>
sure
13:56
<silver_hook>
johnny: It was you, right?
13:57
<johnny>
yes
13:57
altho.. my testers seem to have disappeared
13:57
:(
13:57
knipwim, where are you man?
13:57
<silver_hook>
johnny: What exactly do you need ...so I know how to sell it to our cheif admin?
13:58
He uses LTSP anyway, so it shouldn't be too hard ...but he's also quite a security guy, so he needs some assurance regarding access.
13:59
<johnny>
just a place to build/rebuild ltsp chroots mostly. ..but if i don't have anybody to also test it.. it's pointless
13:59
<silver_hook>
Well, I could still get you a VM and you can use it when you get someone.
14:00
Still easier then trying to get a VM when you find a tester, I suppose :P
14:00
<johnny>
i suppose
14:03
i was hoping to find somebody who wanted to share a box that they owned and let me remote in.. one that also had possibilities of testing terminal :)
14:04
<silver_hook>
Care to give me a contact, so I can patch you through to the guy, if he approves it?
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<jammcq>
hello friends
16:10
heh
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21:18
<sbalneav>
Evening all
21:32
<nubae>
gosh's quiet today
21:32
hi vagrantc
21:33
sbalneav,
21:33
<sbalneav>
Hey nubae
21:34
<nubae>
u know I was thinking.... sabayon con do with some telepathy
21:35
think about it... if u wanted to duplicate profiles....
21:35
what are the dbus bindings like for sabayon...
21:36* nubae goes look see...
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21:37
<nubae>
hi johnny
21:37
<sbalneav>
nubae: There are none.
21:37
<johnny>
hello nubae
21:38
<nubae>
hm.... welll it wouold be easy enough to add a method like duplicate profile
21:39
and signals of sabayon instances running on the network
21:40
of course.... remote profiling would be absolutely awsome
21:40
for help desks....
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21:41
<sbalneav>
I'd like to focus more on getting my apply profiles by group patches accepted upstream, and fixing crasher bugs, rather than more feeping creaturism :)
21:42
<nubae>
well, you're not so much adding new features
21:42
as expanding existing ones
21:44
though I guess if there are no dbus bindings at all for anything... it is creating stuff from scratch
21:44
shame....
21:45
I mean, just adding dbus bindings, even forgetting about telepathy for the moment would be an important step
21:45
<jammcq>
hey guys
21:46
<nubae>
hi jammcq
21:47
<jammcq>
hey
21:47
<sbalneav>
Hey jammcq
21:47
<jammcq>
I guess sbalneav is ignoring me
21:47
oooh, there he is
21:47
Scotty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
21:48
<sbalneav>
hey hey
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21:51
<johnny>
test
21:51
<nubae>
wow, this blog looks awfully familiar to nubae.com: http://robot101.net/
21:52
<johnny>
nubae, ?
21:52
<nubae>
now... I dont remember if I copied him :-)
21:52
style I mean
21:52
<johnny>
nubae, there are some neat bindings happening with dbus..
21:53
<nubae>
sabayon=
21:53
?
21:53
<johnny>
can you see me? what is my nickname?
21:54
<nubae>
johnny
21:54
<johnny>
ok..
21:54
<nubae>
ok lets back up here cause Im confused
21:55
does sabayon have dbus bindings?
21:56
<sbalneav>
No.
21:56
<nubae>
ok, now then.... what has neat bindings with dbus?
21:58
<johnny>
javascript
21:59
<nubae>
hmmmm... that's a little generic dont u think :-) thats like me saying, there are dbus bindings for python
22:00
<johnny>
desktop applications are going to be written in javascript
22:00
<nubae>
thats even more generic
22:01
<johnny>
as a web developer.. it is nice to see this...!!
22:01
<nubae>
surely the world isnt going to sporadically turn to writing all applications in javascript overnight
22:01
<jammcq>
johnny: you talking about chrome ?
22:02
<johnny>
jammcq, no.. altho .. the engine this new js development will be taking place under is based off webkit
22:02
<jammcq>
what engine is that?
22:02
<johnny>
oh.. sorry. .v8
22:02
<nubae>
well, we went from neat things happening with dbus, apparently in javascript applications for the desktop, though it is not apparent which ones yet
22:03
<johnny>
nubae, it wasn't possible to do desktop apps in js UNTIL dbus
22:04
<nubae>
well that isnt quite true, there have been many inter process communication frameworkds
22:04
the world just settled on dbus
22:05
<johnny>
nubae, but no javascript bindings for them..
22:05
<nubae>
but more importantly... the particular methods and signals that dbus would be implementing in a javascript app are what would be of interest
22:06
ie... it would be different for every app...
22:06
so I'm curious as to which app... u are referring to that does neat things with dbus
22:07
its just curiosity... I'm not putting u on the spot here or anything
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22:09
<nubae>
http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2007/09/using-the-tomboy-d-bus-interface.ars
22:09
that's a pretty neat dbus implemenation
22:09
something like that for sabayon would be nice (hint hint)
22:12
hmmm.... did I offend johhny? :-(
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22:13
<johnny>
uggh.. my transport went psycho
22:13
it kept logging me in and out
22:13
going to use empathy for now..
22:14
<nubae>
ah... ok... I thought I had offended u somehow :-)
22:14
<johnny>
nubae: oddjob, that's something neat that *uses* dbus bindings.. nothing at all to do with javascript tho
22:14
<nubae>
did u get the tommyboy link?
22:14
<johnny>
no
22:14
<nubae>
http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2007/09/using-the-tomboy-d-bus-interface.ars
22:15
thats a really nice simple implementation
22:15
<johnny>
iso are you wanting to know about about just any old thing that actually implements dbus bindings?
22:15
<nubae>
uggggh.... windows 7 to run on QT 4.6, say it aint so....
22:16
<johnny>
err
22:16
sorry..
22:16
anything that actually communications decently over dbus?
22:16
nubae: do you have d-feet?
22:17
<nubae>
sure
22:17
its great
22:17
whats even nicer though, for telepathy work is telepathy-inspector
22:17
<johnny>
yes.. i even have that installed..
22:17
i also have that streamer one
22:17
<nubae>
I'm a python coder though, so I'm really only interesting in python stuff
22:18
which is why dbus is pretty cool
22:18
<johnny>
gajim could use some help.. :)
22:18
<nubae>
its like cheating
22:18
<johnny>
nubae: the reason i care about dbus in javascript btw.. is as a way to communication for even just the simple things..
22:18
<nubae>
well nothing like directly accessing the telepathy dbus signals and methods
22:19
<johnny>
like communication with the desktop notification thing
22:19
<nubae>
well the reason I mentioned it before was that till I understood dbus properly I couldn't understand collaboration
22:20
<johnny>
oh..
22:20
<nubae>
since what is really happening under the hood is
22:20
dbus p2p
22:20
dbus from one program connecting to dbus on another program on another computer on another network
22:20
pretty cool stuff
22:20
<johnny>
and that's why ltsp should use it..
22:21
now that hal is disappearing.. things will become easier imo..
22:21
<nubae>
well u have to be pretty specific with how u create the dbus tubes...
22:21
I mean... u need a purpose
22:21
<johnny>
a purpose.. yes we have them :)
22:21
<nubae>
there isnt just a generic... lets dbus tube everything :-)
22:22
<johnny>
many
22:23
making it so the remote session actually knows what hardware is represented
22:23
so the stupid power button will work too :)
22:23
err shutdown button
22:24
<nubae>
anyway, I mentioned to sbalneav that sabayon would be a great contender for dbus tubing
22:24
but since it has no dbus methods or signals
22:24
<johnny>
i don't think it needs that many..
22:24
<nubae>
they'd have to be created first
22:24
<johnny>
what it should do..
22:24
<nubae>
which is kinda like recreating the wheel
22:25
true
22:25
<johnny>
i think i agree with what sbalneav is doing
22:25
<nubae>
doesnt need much
22:25
duplicate profile is the main one
22:25
I mean share profile
22:25
the dbus method would be duplicate profile
22:26
with a signal showing if a computer running sabayon is on the network
22:26
<johnny>
i think it is just too soon to even need soemthing like that
22:26
sabayon has a hard enough problem not trying to kill itself while doing normal tasks..
22:27
but not all of that is the fault of sabayon, probably not most even
22:27
building profiles is hard.. :)
22:27
and making that desktop environment not freak out on you.. also hard :)
22:27
<nubae>
yeah well, like all these things they must be worked on in tandem
22:27
<johnny>
like using a one keyboard laoyout but making a session for another
22:27
<nubae>
but its far easier to add a couple dbus bindings now, than later on down the line
22:28
<johnny>
why does sabayon specifically need that feature you're talking about?
22:29
i think you're doing it at the wrong level
22:29
<nubae>
hmmmm, why?
22:29
<johnny>
having it a level up the stack would be nice..
22:29
making this happen..
22:29
<nubae>
all I want is to have sabayon on one computer copy its profile to another computer
22:30
<johnny>
why not just have it so you can easily copy ANY profile.. or any file.. ?
22:30
<nubae>
right
22:30
that already happens
22:30
but I think thats not specific enough for the user
22:31
thats like saying, well... they can use ftp
22:31
<johnny>
just copying the file doesn't help
22:31
it's what you do with it that makes a sabayon profile anything other than just a zipped up clump of files
22:31
<nubae>
right, needs to integrate into the remote sabayon
22:31
thats why we use dbus
22:32
<johnny>
hmm? exactly how will the other computer know what to do with this group of files?
22:32
<nubae>
telepathy
22:32
<johnny>
how?
22:32
<nubae>
I mentioned before, what a dbus tube is right?
22:32
<johnny>
describe the work flow
22:32
<nubae>
us understand that?
22:33
<johnny>
i know what the tube is.. but what exactly are you going to do with it
22:33
<nubae>
normally... dbus is limited to one computer
22:33
<johnny>
descripe the work flow
22:33
<nubae>
it cannot jump across the network
22:33
<johnny>
well you can ssh tunnel it i bet..
22:33
<nubae>
well... telepathy allows it to jump across the network at will
22:33
<johnny>
i know that
22:33
<nubae>
u dont need to do that
22:33
telepathy takes care of the entire communications framework
22:34
<johnny>
you're missing the point
22:34
<nubae>
u dont have to worry about any of the low level stuff
22:34
<johnny>
describe exactly how you imagine this working?
22:34
<nubae>
what do u want me to describe to you, how telepathy works? the dbus bindings I imagine sabayon having?
22:34
<johnny>
no
22:34
<nubae>
what exacttly?
22:35
ok, lets back uo
22:35
up
22:35
a bit...
22:35
<johnny>
tell me what the user is gonna see :)
22:35
<nubae>
ok
22:36
sabayon right now allows me to create groups of users
22:36
and make a profile for groups of users
22:36
<johnny>
sure
22:36
<nubae>
right?
22:36
ok... but if I wanted to use your profile
22:37
well, a profile u created
22:37
ud probably have to email it to me
22:37
I might need to place it in some special dir
22:37
unzip it...
22:37
and a whole host of other things
22:38
i dunno
22:38
<johnny>
well.. are you familiar with how sabayon is deployed now?
22:38
in a non ltsp system..
22:38
<nubae>
however... if there was a dbus method in sabayon that simply duplicates the profile, it then sends it to the sabayon on the other computer via a dbus tube
22:39
ie... program A uses the dbus method on program B
22:39
on computer B
22:39
<johnny>
but why would it have to be sabayon?
22:39
<nubae>
because its just an example
22:39
this can be done with anything of course
22:40
but I just thought it would have been neat for sabayon
22:40
<johnny>
right now.. an enteprise deployment would consist of an imaged system that gets deployed to all computers. this image would contain an http url so when folks login, it downloads the profile and they get it
22:40
<nubae>
but since there are no dbus bindings the discussion is moot
22:40
sure,
22:40
<johnny>
hmm.. i don't use bindings for what you're talking about
22:40
<nubae>
could all be automated
22:40
<johnny>
i use bindings as in dbus connection methods in programming languages
22:41
<nubae>
why not, its perfect for it
22:41
<johnny>
not the exposed dbus interfaces of a specific program
22:41
<nubae>
forget ldap
22:41
tap into telepathy
22:41
<johnny>
because that's not what people say when they say dbus bindings
22:41
hmm? you're confusing me
22:41
why would they not use ldap.. they have to use it for the actual auth anyways
22:42
<nubae>
bindings are just the way to interface with dbus in a specific language
22:42
ie...
22:42
<johnny>
if they happen to use ldap..
22:42
<leio>
hey, anyone gotten any memtest to work over PXE recently? I get 0104 spam with all versions of memtest86 and memtest86+ I've tested
22:42
<nubae>
python-telepathy
22:42
are the dbus bindings for python for telepathy
22:42
I'd imagine there is also javascript-telepathy
22:43
its basically a way to cheat and not have to use C
22:43
thats how I look at it
22:43
<johnny>
ok.. yesi get it
22:43
<nubae>
now... telepathy allows u to network dbus
22:44
<johnny>
i'm just not imaging a real use for profiles outside of a standardized networks
22:44
<nubae>
and thats where it gets cool
22:44
<johnny>
nubae: i get it
22:44
i just don't see why i'd want to use the app you described
22:44
<nubae>
well because if u are in an enterprise
22:45
and for example, a new computer is given to u, u are a new employee or whatever
22:45
<sbalneav>
forget ldap?
22:45
<johnny>
i'd rather see telepathy talk to something else .. that looks for the profile rather than to sabayon..
22:45
<sbalneav>
wha?
22:45
<nubae>
and you have just been assigned to the design group
22:45
<johnny>
nubae: then you'd just get the profile already
22:45
by telling sabayon to get it from $URL
22:45
<nubae>
your computer turns on, sends out a dbus signal saying hey I'm new, need profile
22:45
<johnny>
since they are already providing it at URL*
22:46
<nubae>
so it looks up who u are
22:46
and gives u what u need
22:46
<johnny>
sure.. i just think sabayon is the wrong component to do that in
22:46
<sbalneav>
If you're in an enterprise, you're NOT going to forget LDAP, LDAP's going to be central to everything you do. And sabayon can retreive profile mappings from LDAP, and profile .zips from an HTTP address, so dbus doesn't need to be there.
22:47
<nubae>
whatever happens under the hood is not important... if it communicates using ldap, haze, libpurple, xmpp
22:47
whatever
22:47
<johnny>
nubae: but that already works ;)
22:47
<nubae>
its not important
22:47
<johnny>
without dbus
22:47
nubae: but have you heard of oddjob?
22:47
you can givei t a list of jobs to perform, and unprivileged users can perform them by talking over dbus
22:48
<nubae>
Im not really talking about dbus here anymore
22:48
<johnny>
now there's a user for your telepathy talking!
22:48
user*
22:48
<nubae>
but more about telepathy and the way it interfaces with dbus
22:48
<johnny>
use*
22:48
nubae: i understand that :)
22:48
i think it is great
22:48
and there are tons of uses.. even the usage you describe
22:48
<nubae>
well its great for me, cause I cant code C
22:48
<johnny>
i just think you're trying to do it at the wrong level
22:49
<nubae>
well, I disagree, I see a huge potential for auto-creating profiles by detecting the user through telepathy
22:49
<johnny>
at that point tho.. you could do the same with xmpp..
22:49
<nubae>
total traversal of NAT
22:50
<johnny>
directly i mean..
22:50
<nubae>
well, whether u use xmpp, ldap, local link, libpourple
22:50
haze idle google talk
22:50
it dfoesnt matter
22:50
telepathy does it all
22:50
<johnny>
sure.. but that's the most terrible part of telepathy
22:50
<nubae>
actually, I thought tghat too in the beginning
22:50
<johnny>
too much happens in the tubes that should be outside it imo
22:50
i agree with the tube concept
22:50
<nubae>
but now I see why its been done this way
22:51
the low level stuff has been completely modularised
22:51
and its as simple as calling mission control and telling it which connection I want it to use
22:51* johnny still doesn't even see pep in empathy..
22:51
<johnny>
nubae: you're not telling me anything i don't know
22:52
<nubae>
or to use the best one it thinks is good for the job
22:52
empathy =! telepathy
22:52
<johnny>
i know
22:52
<nubae>
empathy is a bad example of how telepathy has been integrated into a chat client
22:52
hastily done
22:52
to show something off
22:52
<johnny>
i finally have the empathy that shares desktops.. but over tubes
22:53
<nubae>
sure
22:53
its one use of dbus tube sharing
22:53
<johnny>
so.. yes.. i get the tube concept
22:53
<nubae>
in Sugar... every app does this
22:53
<johnny>
nubae: why don't you just implement this tubes thing for ltsp ..
22:53
<nubae>
which is really cool
22:53
<johnny>
telepathy for ltsp
22:53
<nubae>
well, where?
22:54
<johnny>
share a desktop :)
22:54
<nubae>
I dont see where d tubes and ltsp meet, can u explain?
22:54
that already exists
22:54
<johnny>
a chroot with a local app that replaces ldm
22:54
and does that share desktkop thing
22:55
<nubae>
hmmm not getting u
22:55
what would it do?
22:56
<johnny>
so.. standard bootup happens, but instead of ldm, you directly start "sharing a desktop"
22:56
<nubae>
btw... PEP support has to do with the server u are using
22:57
<johnny>
i run my own server..
22:57
<sbalneav>
Something that *IS* actually needed within LTSP is getting proper dbus support for added devices. Currently, we're handling this with udev rules, but this isn't the proper way. What SHOULD happen is when the device is plugged in locally, standard HAL stuff should happen, and there should be some kind of network dbus signal that should go from the thin client to the server to plumb the LTSPFS connection.
22:57
<johnny>
nubae: note.. " network dbus signal"
22:57
<jammcq>
sbalneav: isn't HAL going away?
22:57
being replaced by something else I think
22:58
<johnny>
jammcq: those events can get dispatched over dbus
22:58
just by other programs now..
22:58
<nubae>
sbalneav, Id need to understand that a little better, but it sounds to me like telepathy dbus tubes could help with that
22:58
<johnny>
specifically.. most of the hal functionality is going to be provided directly by what is in udev, as well as new sysfs entries
22:59
so.. that functionality is going to be obsoleted by udev
22:59
<sbalneav>
nubae: You seem to have a new hammer. Just remember: everything isn't a nail. :)
22:59
<johnny>
sbalneav: .. but he does have a point.. tubes are NETWORK DBUS
22:59
that's what they do..
22:59
<nubae>
sounds very zenish
23:00
still. we are talking here about system dbus
23:01
not session dbus
23:01
telepathy runs over the session dbus
23:01
<johnny>
nubae: so what you would do.. is uhmm.. takeover the functionality of certain dbus exposed interfaces before they reach their target on the host system
23:01
and get sent to the client
23:01
and vice versa..
23:01
so.. if you click shutdown in your remote session
23:01
it shuts down your computer
23:01
and not the server
23:01
<nubae>
yep
23:02
actually, now I see what u mean
23:02
<johnny>
ok.. now go do that :)
23:02
<nubae>
u could do this for a whole host of ltsp stuff
23:02
<sbalneav>
johnny: Didn't say he didn't.
23:02
<nubae>
we should first list them
23:02
before go do them
23:02
<johnny>
nubae: of course :)
23:03
<nubae>
so we have remote shutdown
23:03
what else?
23:03
<johnny>
display brightness?
23:03
<nubae>
sound
23:03
<johnny>
oh.. for the vice versa..
23:04
<nubae>
controlling sound would be extra cool
23:04
<johnny>
you see the local network card connection information
23:04
in network manager
23:04
in your remote session
23:04
<nubae>
well, if.... everyone gets a xmpp account along with their ldm account
23:04
<sbalneav>
sound control does work; that's what pulse does.
23:04
<nubae>
....
23:05
or replace ldm account with xmpp account
23:05
<johnny>
nubae: or xmpp server with pam auth
23:05
whatever fits to prototype it
23:05
<nubae>
well, xmpp brings in presence
23:05
avatars
23:05
<johnny>
avatars?
23:05
<sbalneav>
How are you planning to have the ssh login?
23:05
<nubae>
a whole host of nice neat things
23:06
<sbalneav>
Specifically, the ssh login with password expiry.
23:06
<nubae>
xmpp login
23:06
ssl
23:06F-GT has quit IRC
23:06
<sbalneav>
"ssl" doesn't answer the question :)
23:07
<johnny>
sbalneav: in one of his ideas.. you don't use ssh at all
23:07
<nubae>
well, your question was somewhat vague
23:07
right no ssh
23:07
<sbalneav>
ok. I'll be more specific.
23:07
<nubae>
telepathy does the comms
23:08
<johnny>
nubae: that's solving the problem in a different area tho
23:08
depends on which way you go tho..
23:08
<nubae>
well... its just exploration right now
23:08
but imagine this....
23:09
user is presented with user.... (password optional)
23:09
if xmpp server present, connects
23:09
downloads profile
23:09
etc
23:09
if no xmpp server present, local-link
23:09
<sbalneav>
We need to be able to handle standard login, using standard shadow-password functionality. This includes things like password expiry, password warning periods, and account suspention. We're currently doing this over ssh. We could also do this with PAM. Would you be implementing a full pam module using all this stuff, that would implement all current pam behaviours?
23:10
<nubae>
but then of course no authentication.... local-link xmpp cant do autthentication without dirty hacking
23:11
I still dont understand what you are asking sbalneav
23:11
<sbalneav>
Really?
23:11
Ok.
23:11
<johnny>
sbalneav: i don't think we're into those kind of specifics atm
23:12
just how the system works generally
23:12F-GT has joined #ltsp
23:12
<nubae>
well, I think u are asking about how telepathy works...
23:12
<sbalneav>
No, I'm not
23:12
because I don't care.
23:12
<nubae>
ok, then its a simple xmpp login
23:13
<sbalneav>
I only care if a new technology implements the behaviours we already have.
23:13
<nubae>
it does+
23:13
but in a much better way
23:13
<sbalneav>
So there's a pam XMPP module?
23:13
<johnny>
sbalneav: sure..
23:13
xmpp server pam modules that is
23:13
<nubae>
it was designed from the ground up as a interprocess communications framework
23:14
<johnny>
you auth to xmpp, xmpp auths to pam..
23:14
lots of servers have a pam module
23:14
<sbalneav>
sbalneav@phobos:~$ aptitude search libpam | grep xmpp
23:14
sbalneav@phobos:~$
23:14
<nubae>
auths to whatever you like
23:14
<sbalneav>
I'd say there's a big bupkis there :)
23:14
<johnny>
sbalneav: no.. it's server specific sbalneav
23:14
ejabberd for example has a pam auth module
23:14
<nubae>
ejabberd for example
23:14
yeah+
23:15
jeez think about it
23:15
sugars whole system runs like this
23:15
<johnny>
there is never gonna be an generic xmpp pam module..
23:15
<nubae>
theyre whole authentication runs via telepathy alone
23:15
as in fact will gnome in the future too
23:16
<sbalneav>
So what does the distributed auth then.
23:16
<nubae>
xmpp servers
23:16
<sbalneav>
ok.
23:16
<johnny>
and most xmpp servers can auth to pam
23:17
<nubae>
or if not present
23:17
local cached version of data
23:17
and thats where it gets kinda cool
23:17
<sbalneav>
So we have ldap servers TODAY, and we have a pam-ldap module TODAY. Why shouldn't we just do remote auth to LTSP workstations with LDAP, today?
23:17
<johnny>
sbalneav: sure..
23:17
you could do that
23:17
your xmpp can auth to ldap..
23:18
you can still use pam-ldap :)
23:18* jammcq has been talking about doing remote auth for LTSP with LDAP for many years
23:18
<nubae>
the important thing is to forget about the low level stuff
23:18
<johnny>
jammcq: that functinality is going to happen.. just in a different way
23:18
<nubae>
it doesnt matter
23:18
its built into both gnome and kde
23:18
and its called telepathy
23:18
let it do what its good at
23:18
<johnny>
nubae: i don't think you do a good job at describing it
23:19
<nubae>
well, its very very hard to describe
23:19
its really a set of dbus bindings
23:19
a very very big set of dbus bindings that do almost anything u can imagine with communicatino
23:19
but modularised completely too
23:19
<johnny>
but.. the point isn't to describe how telepathy works
23:19
<nubae>
so its not monolithic
23:20
<johnny>
the point is describe how an optimal system would work.. where that implementation might happen to use telepathy
23:20
<sbalneav>
telepathy's JUST ANOTHER PIPE. The PIPE isn't what's important. WE'VE GOT NOTHING ON EITHER END OF THE PIPE :)
23:20
<johnny>
i think we just said the same thing..
23:20
<nubae>
thats actually where I disagree
23:20
<johnny>
but in two completely different ways..
23:21
<sbalneav>
You guys are arguing about using either copper or PVC, meanwhile we have no water supply, and no toilets :)
23:21
<nubae>
u need to understand telepathy in its entirety to see how it can help
23:21
<sbalneav>
Well, I think one of the things I'd like to work on this hackfest is getting ldap in.
23:21
<johnny>
nubae: not really.. you could just describe how the sytem would work.. and how it fit together
23:22
<sbalneav>
That way, LDM can auth to LDAP.
23:22
<johnny>
over an ldap connection?
23:22
or still ssh.. but ssh talking to ldap?
23:22
<sbalneav>
Then we create a pam module that takes the stored PAM auth token, and plumbs the ssh connection.
23:22
<nubae>
oh wow....
23:22
why are we talking low level again
23:23
<jammcq>
cuz scotty is trying to actually implement something that works
23:23
and at some point, you have to talk low level
23:23
<nubae>
yes but we have already established that telepathy does all that
23:23
it authenticates
23:23
<johnny>
nubae: telepathy doesn't do it alone
23:23
<sbalneav>
NO IT DOESN"T
23:23
<nubae>
in any way u want it to
23:24
<sbalneav>
it's just a pipe.
23:24
<nubae>
actuallly it does
23:24
I call mission control
23:24
<sbalneav>
ok, so WHERE's the telepathy pam module?
23:24
<johnny>
sbalneav: you don't need one
23:24
<nubae>
mission control selects the connection manager I want
23:24
<johnny>
that's the point
23:24
<nubae>
it creates a connection
23:24
<johnny>
you might need an xmpp server with a pam module yes..
23:25
<nubae>
xmpp is what does all the magic
23:25
<sbalneav>
ok, so the XMPP server and PAM module are doing the auth
23:25
NOT TELEPATHY.
23:25
<nubae>
no
23:25
telepathy
23:25
which USES XMPP
23:25
<johnny>
nubae: does it still send an xmpp login request in xml?
23:25
<nubae>
yes
23:26
<johnny>
then it's xmpp doing the uath
23:26
wrapped by telpathy perhaps
23:26
<nubae>
but it can use haze
23:26
<johnny>
but still xmpp doing it
23:26
<nubae>
or libpurple
23:26
<johnny>
but haze just uses something else
23:26
<nubae>
or wilde
23:26
<sbalneav>
Well, go ahead and implement it then :)
23:26
<nubae>
ofr whatever u feel like
23:26
<johnny>
nubae: WE KNOW
23:26
in in those cases.. it auths to msn, irc, aim, etc
23:26
and their $whatever does the auth
23:27
<nubae>
well.. then why a i being told that telepathy doesnt do authentication
23:27
when it does?
23:27
<johnny>
telepathy is just a generic interface to those specific auths
23:27
<sbalneav>
because it's a pipe to send authentication information over
23:27
PAM does the auth
23:27
<johnny>
telepathy is just a freindly wrapper around their auth
23:27Bart__ has joined #LTSP
23:27
<nubae>
its a set of dbus bindings
23:27
<johnny>
nubae: that talk to those services!
23:27
specifically at some point
23:28
<nubae>
and its a whole host of interfaces
23:28
<johnny>
it's just an abstraction nubae
23:28
it's not a thing on it's own
23:28
<nubae>
right
23:28
right
23:28
<johnny>
ok.. so we understand that..
23:28
<nubae>
which is why its difficult to explain
23:28
<johnny>
nubae: not really
23:29
you're trying to do two things at once here
23:29
describe how the system actually works for a user
23:29
<nubae>
well... I cant even get the #telepathy guys to explain it properly
23:29
<johnny>
while many us us need to understand how the pieces fit :)
23:29
<Bart__>
Hi, sorry to interrupt, but can I attach a DVD burner on my thin client? So that the workstation can burn DVDs?
23:29
<johnny>
Bart__: sorry.. not yet
23:29
in fact.. part of this discussion is to perhaps solve tha issue
23:29
at least on very fast networks
23:30
<Bart__>
Oh I see. That was a quick. =)
23:30
<johnny>
Bart__: it's somewhere in there
23:30yanu has quit IRC
23:30
<johnny>
we just haven't hit the nail on the head yet :)
23:30
<nubae>
u could if, for example, there were dbus bindings that brasero had
23:30yanu has joined #ltsp
23:30* sbalneav bangs head on desk
23:30
<nubae>
u could then create a dbus tube to the thin client and call that
23:30
<johnny>
nubae: there are.. but you still have to transfer the files back to the system
23:30
<nubae>
yeah, thats why its a tube
23:31
its 2 way
23:31
or 3 or 4
23:31
<johnny>
you're thinking at the wrong level of where these bindings are again.. and it is cluttering the message
23:31
<nubae>
actually its p2p
23:31
<johnny>
application level isn't hte point
23:31
<sbalneav>
Bart__: No, but you could, potentially, run a DVD burner program as a local application.
23:31
<johnny>
we're talking about adjusting the part that computer describes
23:31
<nubae>
well, for the brasero thing I just sidetracked
23:31
wasnt on purpose
23:31
<Bart__>
Johnny thanks for all your help, I was able to fix all the problems in my Intel Atom Clients now
23:32
<johnny>
nubae: no.. thing is you're right..about the functionality that you are describing as good, just solving it at the wrong level
23:32
<nubae>
look... a good example is vino/vinagre
23:32
<johnny>
the important thing is adjusting what happens at the system and session level
23:32
nubae: we get it!
23:32
<Bart__>
sbalneav, yeah, but I need to burn something, guess I have to find other methods
23:32
<johnny>
it's just the wrong place to solve the problem
23:33
that we have
23:33
there are ways using telepathy to help us solve the problem.. i can see them
23:33
<sbalneav>
Bart__: This for a lab?
23:33
<nubae>
well, I'm not sure how session and system can communicate
23:33
<johnny>
nubae: turnig it into a dbus proxy.. that's how
23:33
<nubae>
cuase telepathy is totally session based
23:33
<johnny>
i don't see that as a problem
23:33
i mean. .it might limit a few things we can do..
23:33
<nubae>
I dont mean that
23:34
<Bart__>
For office... Because we have videos, and my officemates, we just burn those files off our file server then we present them to customers
23:34
<nubae>
there are already tons of dbus proxies for python in telepathy-python
23:34
<johnny>
nubae: ! :(
23:34
nubae: let me describe what i'd like to see
23:35
at a level that helps LTSP that could potentially happen in a short amount of time
23:35
in a somewhat low level way.. and i want you to think about how you can solve it
23:36
<nubae>
loook, I see in the simplest usage of telepathy.... remote control of whatever
23:36
<johnny>
nubae: c'mon dude..
23:36
<nubae>
what?
23:37
<johnny>
hold on a sec
23:37
<nubae>
using xmpp to do authentication is a wonderful idea, but it'll just never happen...
23:37
<johnny>
looking for a good example
23:37
<nubae>
so I'm being realistic
23:38
remote control of all aspects of thin client computers
23:38
<sbalneav>
Bart__: I remember reading some time ago a tutorial for setting up a DVD burning stattion that used Samba. You "printed" the ISO to the server, and it burned the dvd for you.
23:38
<nubae>
from sound/brightness/enable disable video
23:39
enable disable utube
23:39
stuff like that
23:39
<Bart__>
Anything possible I will try. Where can I start looking for this tutorial? I've searched google, and none can find
23:40
<johnny>
yes
23:40
<Bart__>
Also, can you suggest ideas how to make my thin clients faster? I've tried LDM_DirectX = True. Will running local apps also make it faster?
23:40
<johnny>
nubae: here's the remotte control i'm interested.. the specific thing we need implemented (imo)
23:41
that if we have say.. org/gnome/PowerManager/Brighness .. the one we see.. is not the one from the server.. but from the client
23:42
<sbalneav>
Bart__: Well, what kind of thin clients do you have? And what exactly is slow?
23:42
<johnny>
so.. something that would mix a set of server interfaces, with a set of client itnerfaces
23:42
so.. the user would see all the client monitor information
23:43
and i should be able to see both the remote storage, and local storage
23:43
if you can help us plumb those features.. the greatest problem to ltsp would be solved (imo)
23:43
<nubae>
hey that would be cool
23:43
like a thin client inspector
23:43
<Bart__>
Um, not really slow, but there's a .3 sec delay on mouse click, but with LDM_DirectX = false it's .7 sec, I have Intel Atom the dual core type, it's fast enough but I want to optimize it more, thanks.
23:43
<nubae>
almost on a debug level
23:43
<johnny>
sure.. that is one tiny thing you could do es..
23:43
but the important thing is that the you can override some of the exposed dbus interfaces by the ones from the client
23:44
or certain ones from the server
23:44
<nubae>
hmm... u lost me there
23:44
give me an example
23:44
<johnny>
uhm ?
23:44
i did
23:44
the power manager brightness thing..
23:44
<sbalneav>
Bart__: You may want to look at stgraber's PPA. There's been some repairs to the X libraries that fix latency problems.
23:45
<nubae>
i still dont get what the problem is there though?
23:47
<johnny>
having the logged in section seeing org.freedesktop.DeviceKit.Disks.DeviceAdded
23:47
if i plugin usb flash drive.. :)
23:47
plugged in on the thin client
23:48
<nubae>
by the way, telepathy (jumping low level again briefly) intends to wrap encryption around all the protocols it evenually will support
23:48
<Bart__>
Ok what does stgraber's PPA mean?
23:48
<nubae>
uding XTLS and jingle
23:49
<Bart__>
How do I install it?
23:49
<nubae>
oh yeah remote control flash player would be nice indeed
23:49
<johnny>
?
23:49
flash player?
23:49
i'm talking about hardware..
23:49
<nubae>
i bet flash player alread has dbus bindings
23:49
oh
23:50
<johnny>
i just need to talk to the dbus guys i guess
23:50
<nubae>
sorry I wasnt reading that part, thoguht uwere taling to bart
23:50
<johnny>
the nice thing about software that has come out recently..
23:50
<sbalneav>
Bart__: https://edge.launchpad.net/~stgraber/+ppa-packages
23:50
<johnny>
is that they are not using hard coded device strings and whatnot
23:50
and not having alsa.. but pulse..
23:51
<nubae>
johnny, u can call it whatever u like in dbus
23:51
<johnny>
huh?
23:51
<nubae>
as long as it contains u're domain name backwards
23:51
the device
23:51
<johnny>
uhm..
23:51
i'm referring to the fact that now they just listen in on signals for what to do
23:52
<nubae>
no
23:52
<johnny>
which means.. that if we can inject signals from remote
23:52
<nubae>
signals and methods
23:52
<johnny>
sorry.. send signals..
23:52
<nubae>
but backup
23:52
what specficially are u taling about here
23:52
which device
23:52
<johnny>
look.. i'm asking for your help on how to solve a most pressing problem for ltsp
23:52
no specific device
23:53
i just gave ou an example of the kinds of things i want to happen
23:53
a very specific example.. but only an example
23:54
<nubae>
ok, i must be blind, please repeate the specific example
23:54
<Bart__>
won't these packages break my client? do I need to start a new ltsp-build-client? what do you sugges sbalneav? thx
23:55
<johnny>
nubae: lemme try again
23:55
<nubae>
Bart__, backup
23:55
<sbalneav>
Bart__: Are you running jaunty?
23:55
<nubae>
as the saying goes
23:55
<johnny>
if i plug camera into a thin client machine, and i plug a flash drive into the server
23:56
if i'm logged into a session remotely.. i should see the camera, and the flash drive
23:56
but not the way we do now
23:56
with ltspfs
23:56
and checking /media ..
23:57
<nubae>
well, it doesnt have to be mututally exclusive
23:57
<johnny>
no.. but it could be :)
23:57
you could set policy at the server level..
23:57
via policykit
23:58
<nubae>
u really want to rewrite LTSP yet again?
23:58
<johnny>
no.. it wouldn't involve rewriting ltsp
23:58
basically just a dbus proxy :)
23:58
<nubae>
ok... stop there for a sec
23:58
<johnny>
back to that again..
23:59
<nubae>
for me a dbus proxy... is basically just a standin object in the lingo of your choice
23:59
for a dbus method or signal
23:59
<johnny>
hmm?
23:59
nubae: .. the proxy would mix in the methods and signals.. and their targets
23:59
<nubae>
ok... thats as simple as I can explain I think