IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 17 July 2018 (all times are UTC)
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| 12:17 | <Pyasv> Hi, I need help! When connecting to a thin client, the / home partition is not visible. What you need to register in prints lts.con?
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| 12:22 | <alkisg> Pyasv: hmm, more explanation is needed. Start with distro/version
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| 12:24 | <Pyasv> Description:Ubuntu 16.04.4 LTS
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| 12:25 | ltsp-client 5.5.7-1
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| 12:25 | <alkisg> OK, what are your client specs, how much ram do they have?
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| 12:25 | <Pyasv> ltsp-server 5.5.7-1
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| 12:26 | <alkisg> How much RAM do your clients have?
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| 12:26 | And what CPUs?
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| 12:26 | <Pyasv> 2gb
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| 12:26 | <alkisg> (so that we see if you want to use thin or fat clients)
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| 12:26 | OK, then you want to use fat clients, not thins
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| 12:27 | Did you follow some tutorial to set up ltsp?
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| 12:28 | Do this: sudo ltsp-info | nc termbin.com 9999
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| 12:28 | And tell us the output
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| 12:29 | <Pyasv> No LSB modules are available. http://termbin.com/d8i4
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| 12:29 | <alkisg> There are many ways to run ltsp
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| 12:29 | You are not using a good way. You have a thin client chroot, while your clients are good enough to use a fat chroot or a chrootless ltsp
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| 12:30 | <Pyasv> My task. There where the weak processor to use the thin client.
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| 12:30 | <alkisg> The clients are weak and you want to use them as thin clients?
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| 12:30 | Which CPU model do they have?
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| 12:31 | <Pyasv> atom
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| 12:31 | d525 1.8
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| 12:31 | <alkisg> Eh, they're not that bad, they would probably run better as fat clients
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| 12:32 | So anyway about your question. If you have thin clients, and you open the file manager, you see the server /home
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| 12:32 | <alkisg> But of course localapps (if you use those) work on the client and don't see /home
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| 12:32 | Open a terminal on the client and run: ls /home
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| 12:32 | Do you see the server home?
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| 12:35 | <Pyasv> Loaded in LDM. Asks to enter the user name. I enter but back to turn up in LDM
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| 12:36 | <alkisg> Pyasv: I see that we have language issues. Do you want me to help you with VNC?
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| 12:36 | (remote desktop)
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| 12:37 | <Pyasv> Yes, my English is bad
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| 12:38 | <alkisg> For me to help you with VNC, run this: sudo apt --yes install x11vnc; x11vnc -connect 193.92.203.16
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| 12:39 | <Pyasv> in the console writes "No directory, loggining in with HOME=/"
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| 12:40 | no, I want to boot into a thin client on a computer
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| 12:40 | <alkisg> Yes, I understand, but I can't help you without screen sharing, because of the language
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| 12:41 | VNC will allow me to see what is wrong with your server setup. The fix is on the server, not on the client.
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| 12:44 | <Pyasv> You want to connect to me on VNC?
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| 12:44 | <alkisg> Yes
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| 12:45 | <Pyasv> Good. 5 minutes
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| 12:46 | <alkisg> (03:38:58 μμ) alkisg: For me to help you with VNC, run this: sudo apt --yes install x11vnc; x11vnc -connect 193.92.203.16
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| 12:49 | <Pyasv> 81.9.19.254 pasword 123456
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| 12:50 | <derick_> on my client internet is not working. I have manaually change nameserver to 8.8.8.8. Is there a better way to make it work?
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| 12:50 | <alkisg> derick_: see the newer ltsp version
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| 12:50 | !install
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| 12:50 | <ltsp> install: http://wiki.ltsp.org/wiki/Installation/Ubuntu for Ubuntu, or http://wiki.ltsp.org/wiki/Installation for other distributions
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| 12:51 | <alkisg> Pyasv, you don't need to give me your ip and you don't need to run vnc. Run this: sudo apt --yes install x11vnc; x11vnc -connect 193.92.203.16
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| 12:52 | <derick_> alkisg : setup part is right I think. Its a networking related issue . ping 8.8.8.8 works | nslookup google.com does not | nslookup google.com 8.8.8.8 works
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| 12:52 | <alkisg> derick_: the newer ltsp has fixed a lot of networking issues
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| 12:53 | You obviously have a misconfigured dns, and I've uploaded fixes for that.
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| 12:53 | *resolv.conf
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| 12:54 | Pyasv: did you close it? I lost the connection
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| 12:54 | Run it again if you want
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| 12:57 | <derick_> alkisg : I am using ltsp-server package not ltsp-server-standalone.
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| 12:57 | <alkisg> derick_: ok, the code is there too
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| 12:59 | <derick_> alksig : but commands like ltsp-config dnsmasq --enable-dns does not work.
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| 12:59 | <alkisg> derick_: did you add the ppa, as the wiki says?
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| 13:00 | Pyasv: so, you're using fat clients,
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| 13:00 | and, with lubuntu in the chroot, and with an old version, that has problems with XSESSION,
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| 13:00 | so, you had to use LDM_XSESSION there which isn't a good thing to do. The correct thing to do would be to install a newer, fixed LTSP
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| 13:01 | Pyasv: so if you want to use 16.04, I suggest you install LTSP using this page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp?action=recall&rev=30
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| 13:01 | Pyasv: if you want 18.04, this page:
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| 13:01 | !install
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| 13:01 | <ltsp> install: http://wiki.ltsp.org/wiki/Installation/Ubuntu for Ubuntu, or http://wiki.ltsp.org/wiki/Installation for other distributions
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| 13:03 | <Pyasv> Thanks, I'll try
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| 13:03 | <alkisg> You're welcome
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| 13:46 | <Hyperbyte> LTSP actually works with 18.04?
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| 13:46 | o.O
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| 14:00 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: looks like you missed the announcement, https://sourceforge.net/p/ltsp/mailman/message/36369066/
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| 14:03 | <derick_> Yup. Now I am shutdown client from epoptes as well.
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| 14:23 | <Hyperbyte> alkisg, I'm not on the mailing lists
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| 14:24 | <alkisg> OK
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| 14:25 | <Hyperbyte> But that's good news.
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| 14:25 | I'm not feeling lucky yet to roll it out. :-D But maybe in a few months.
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| 14:26 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: sure; now it's the testing + bug solving period; later on it will be more stable but without bug solving; whatever suits you best :)
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| 14:27 | <Hyperbyte> When I migrated from 14.04 to 16.04 I think I spent a few months fixing all problems my users encountered
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| 14:29 | But that's mainly because of all the Ubuntu stuff.
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| 14:30 | Also, since the thin clients we're using are over 8 years old now, I might try to convince the company boss to buy beefier machines and start using fat clients instead of thin.
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| 14:31 | <alkisg> Yey! The last thin client installation will RIP :D
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| 14:31 | <Hyperbyte> It's tough though to find small, fanless clients that support dual monitor.
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| 14:31 | Far from the last. :-D
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| 14:31 | <alkisg> Really? They don't have 2 outputs, like hdmi + vga?
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| 14:31 | !cheap-client
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| 14:31 | <ltsp> cheap-client: https://www.gearbest.com/tv-box-c_11262/?attr=2081-1279
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| 14:31 | * alkisg looks... | |
| 14:31 | <Hyperbyte> At the radio/tv station in Dordrecht we'll still be using thin clients, but that's a matter of budget.
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| 14:32 | alkisg, I don't want VGA. I'd want HDMI+HDMI.
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| 14:32 | <alkisg> Ah ok then. Maybe you could find hdmi+dvi, if you can settle with that...
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| 14:32 | <Hyperbyte> Maybe. I'll have to do some research when the time is there.
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| 14:32 | It'll be in a year or so at earliest, so who knows what's on the market then.
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| 14:33 | <alkisg> For greek schools that want to use thin clients, I'll tell them to stick with 18.04 for as long as they like, and then I'll probably implement a new version of ltsp without thin client support...
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| 14:33 | <Hyperbyte> Oh maybe you know this
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| 14:33 | Since I migrated to 16.04 (from 14.04) people have been complaining about slowness...
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| 14:34 | Which I've tracked down to increased CPU usage on the clients.
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| 14:34 | <alkisg> From which process?
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| 14:34 | <Hyperbyte> So far I haven't dug into it properly, because I simply haven't had the time and the client hasn't prioritized the issue
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| 14:34 | But I figured maybe you know.
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| 14:34 | <alkisg> Do you know the process name? Or should I guesS?
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| 14:34 | <Hyperbyte> I believe it was X
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| 14:35 | <alkisg> X usually means LDM_DIRECTX=False instead of True
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| 14:35 | <Hyperbyte> First thing I checked, but the config seems okay
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| 14:35 | <alkisg> Did it actually reach the clients?
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| 14:36 | <Hyperbyte> How can I check if it's using compression or not? (I mean apart from checking the getltscfg -a stuff etc)
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| 14:36 | <alkisg> Here's one client with 2 hdmi and some other stuff: https://www.gearbest.com/tv-box-mini-pc/pp_358225.html?wid=1654075
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| 14:37 | * Hyperbyte boots a virtual PXE client as everyone has gone home | |
| 14:37 | <alkisg> ps aux will tell you if it's using ssh -X or not
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| 14:37 | And you could also check the actual forwarded ports...
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| 14:37 | <Hyperbyte> That's not a bad one
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| 14:38 | !learn client-dualscreen as https://www.gearbest.com/tv-box-mini-pc/pp_358225.html?wid=1654075
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| 14:38 | <ltsp> The operation succeeded.
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| 14:39 | <alkisg> And this one with DP+HDMI: https://www.gearbest.com/mini-pc/pp_1672353.html?wid=1433363
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| 14:39 | * alkisg would love an i7 mini client :D | |
| 14:40 | <Hyperbyte> That's a nice one, with 8 GB ram as well.
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| 14:42 | !learn client-dualscreen as https://www.gearbest.com/mini-pc/pp_1672353.html?wid=1433363
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| 14:42 | <ltsp> The operation succeeded.
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| 14:43 | <alkisg> And the cheaper one, https://www.gearbest.com/mini-pc/pp_009152598808.html?wid=1433363
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| 14:44 | <Hyperbyte> It's using ssh -Y
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| 14:45 | So I guess LDM_DIRECTX is okay
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| 14:45 | I also can't see the CPU usage I was seeing earlier... oh well
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| 14:46 | I'll dig further another time.
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| 14:46 | It's time to replace the hardware anyways....
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| 14:47 | <alkisg> Hyperbyte: ssh -Y means LDM_DIRECTX is not ok
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| 14:47 | It's compressed X
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| 14:47 | <Hyperbyte> Isn't ssh -X compressed and ssh -Y without?
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| 14:47 | <alkisg> No
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| 14:47 | Both are compressed
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| 14:47 | (if I remember well; it's been years since looking into thin clients... :D)
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| 14:48 | <Hyperbyte> -C flag?
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| 14:48 | <alkisg> Well actually it's the encryption part that's causing the ssh
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| 14:48 | the compression doesn't make much of a difference
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| 14:49 | The point is, on LDM_DIRECTX, neither -X nor -Y nor -C should be used
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| 14:49 | *when LDM_DIRECT=True
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| 14:49 | *that's causing the CPU usage
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| 14:49 | Meh I need to read what I'm writing before I press enter :D
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| 14:54 | <Hyperbyte> Hmmm... weird that it's using -Y then
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| 14:55 | LDM_DIRECTX="True" is outputted by getltscfg -a
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| 14:55 | and ps aux ssh -Y -t -S /var/run/ldm_socket_1260_server server
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| 14:56 | <alkisg> It might be a code glitch, and not actually use the -Y part of the connection even if it's there
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| 14:56 | <Hyperbyte> But isn't -Y to enable X11Forwarding?
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| 14:57 | AFAIK, -X enables secure X11forwarding and -Y insecure X11forwarding
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| 14:57 | <alkisg> Yes, i.e. the ltsp code might not be smart enough to disable it when LDM_DIRECTX=True, but smart enough not to use it :D
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| 14:57 | LDM_DIRECTX=True uses xauth + tcp forwarding, unrelated to ssh
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| 14:57 | <Hyperbyte> Ah.
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| 14:58 | <alkisg> *eh actually it's not called forwarding then, it's just normal networked xorg
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| 14:58 | <Hyperbyte> ps aux: /usr/lib/xorg/Xorg :7 vt7 -auth /var/run/ldm-xauth-sPVeKQE6P/Xauthority -listen tcp -config /var/run/ltsp-xorg.conf -depth 16 -br
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| 14:58 | That looks alright then?
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| 14:58 | <alkisg> Netstat will tell you
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| 14:59 | <Hyperbyte> Xorg listening on 6007
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| 14:59 | <alkisg> And does it have connections?
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| 14:59 | <Hyperbyte> Yes, quite a few.
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| 14:59 | <alkisg> And easier way: login to the client, and run echo $DISPLAY
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| 15:00 | If it's localhost:123, it's ssh, if it's a remote ip, it's directx
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| 15:00 | <Hyperbyte> it's an IP.
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| 15:01 | :-)
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| 15:01 | <alkisg> Great
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| 15:02 | <Hyperbyte> I guess it's just general slowness. The server is 5 years old, the clients are 8 years old...
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| 15:03 | Have to replace stuff eventually
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| 15:03 | Going from 16.04 to 18.04 would be a nice occassion
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| 15:03 | <alkisg> Which DE are you using?
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| 15:07 | <Hyperbyte> MATE
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| 15:14 | <alkisg> Nice, it's the one that gets the most testing :)
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| 15:16 | <Hyperbyte> When I went from 14 to 16, I also switched from Gnome classic or fallback or whatever it's called nowadays to MATE.
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| 15:18 | * alkisg will probably switch back to gnome in 20.04... | |
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| 16:15 | <derick_> Do I install ldm-ubuntu-theme package or it is not needed now?
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| 16:19 | Okay. It is not automatically installed.
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| 16:20 | It is automatically installed*
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| 17:07 | <alkisg> Heh. After 2 hours of suspend, a client's nbd0 (=/) disconnected, while nbd1 (=swap) didn't
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| 17:07 | I wonder if nbd-client -persist does the exact opposite of what it claims :D
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| 17:07 | <vagrantc> heh
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| 17:08 | might just be dumb luck, too
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| 17:09 | <vagrantc> did the swap actually have any used blocks, beyond just being initialized?
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| 17:09 | <alkisg> I managed to run ps aux, but it hanged on `free`, do I couldn't tell
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| 17:32 | <alkisg> vagrantc: could I upload LTSP test builds for stretch, now that I'm doing some bug squashing? And where, in experimental? Or in a repository of my own?
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| 17:35 | <vagrantc> alkisg: can't build for stretch, can only build for experimental or unstable
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| 17:35 | alkisg: unless you use a personal repository
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| 17:35 | <alkisg> Got it
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| 17:36 | Hmm, if anyone asks for it, I might
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| 17:36 | <vagrantc> if the bugfixes are feasible to backport to an old LTSP version, then you might be able to get it into stretch
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| 17:36 | selective, specific fixes, rather than new upstream versions
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| 17:37 | for new upstream versions with new features, upload to unstable, wait till it migrates to testing, and then upload to stretch-backports :)
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| 17:37 | <alkisg> vagrantc: nah, I don't have the stomach for cherry picking, but it might be worth it to put it in stretch-backports
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| 17:39 | <vagrantc> alkisg: next week i should have some time to toy with it, though i have no idea how our timezones will cross then :)
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| 17:39 | this week is going to be a bit crazy
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| 17:39 | <alkisg> Great; I think I'll have finished the bulk of the work till then
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| 17:41 | I was pondering to create systemd units for ltsp, but then we'd also need to address SCREENxx handling, (i.e. rewrite start_screen_sessions) and I'm not sure it's worth it at this time
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| 18:31 | <alkisg> Note to myself: vbox thin clients (thin chroot) load vesa the first time (/dev/dri/card0 missing) and work with 16bpp, but modesetting the second time which doesn't work with 16bpp. Chrootless ltsp maybe delays a second and loads modesetting from the first time.
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| 19:48 | <ltsp_SA_1> Hi, Does anybody here know how to change the ltsp client login screen?
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| 19:52 | <vagrantc> copy one of the the directories in /usr/share/ldm/themes/ to a new directory and set LDM_THEME=your-new-directory ... and edit it
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| 19:52 | e.g. change the images, adjust the colors in the gtkrc
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| 20:03 | <ltsp_SA_1> thanks
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| 20:09 | <Leolo_2> hello everyone
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| 20:10 | I'm looking for inexpensive, readily available, small, quiet thin clients
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| 20:10 | it seems like everything I try is either : order from israel (fitpc) or just doesn't work (shuttle dx30)
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| 20:10 | and I'm wondering what people here use.
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| 20:12 | <alkisg> !cheap-client
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| 20:12 | <ltsp> cheap-client: https://www.gearbest.com/tv-box-c_11262/?attr=2081-1279
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| 20:12 | <alkisg> ...although schools here just order normal i3 desktop PCs, just without disk :D
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| 20:13 | <Leolo_2> that's large and noisy though. a school probably has more room for that
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| 20:13 | <alkisg> Yeah it depends on the environment. See the link I pasted above ^
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| 20:14 | <Leolo_2> those will all work with ltsp? or do I just have to buy them and try?
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| 20:14 | <alkisg> They should, but most haven't been tested
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| 20:15 | You might need to do a trick in some of them, to put the kernel locally, autoupdated with an lts.conf directive
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| 20:15 | ...as uefi netbooting support isn't yet mature
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| 20:15 | <Leolo_2> oh god, uefi
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| 20:15 | "kernel locally" as in uSD?
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| 20:15 | <alkisg> All of them have local DOM
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| 20:16 | Not sd, internal storage
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| 20:16 | Like a small integrated ssd
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| 20:16 | Others 32gb, others 64... and you only need a few mb
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| 20:17 | <Leolo_2> some form of mmc
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| 20:17 | <alkisg> Right
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| 20:17 | In some cases, you should be able to just use legacy lan boot
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| 20:17 | But I haven't tested, so I wouldn't know which one would support that
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| 20:19 | <Leolo_2> so I have to order each one, wait for it to ship from china, and hope it works...
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| 20:19 | <alkisg> You can also google if anyone has ran linux on them
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| 20:19 | If they run linux, they surely can also run ltsp
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| 20:20 | <Leolo_2> with my luck, I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't
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| 20:20 | but yes, that's a good point
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| 20:21 | <alkisg> Those are intel based, x64, normal achitecture, nothing fancy like the berry/pi families
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| 20:21 | <Leolo_2> right
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| 20:21 | but this DX30 I'm fighting with right now even claims "Ubuntu" support in the product spects but won't work with my current LTSP setup
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| 20:21 | <alkisg> Does it boot from a usb stick?
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| 20:22 | And, what is the error message with ltsp?
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| 20:22 | <Leolo_2> no error message. it's
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| 20:22 | just
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| 20:22 | very
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| 20:22 | very
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| 20:22 | slow
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| 20:22 | and it won't do graphics. I haven't looked into that part yet
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| 20:22 | <alkisg> https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Celeron+J3355+%40+2.00GHz&id=2960 => 1229 score
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| 20:22 | An i3 has 5000 score, but 1229 isn't that bad
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| 20:23 | So if it's very slow for you, maybe you have something misconfigured?
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| 20:23 | <Leolo_2> as a test, I put my laptop's HDD in it, which has CentOS 6. and I'm getting an MCE error
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| 20:23 | <alkisg> E.g. maybe you're using it as a thin client with LDM_DIRECTX=False, instead of as a fat client?
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| 20:23 | <Leolo_2> no, even before it gets to X, it's slow
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| 20:24 | <alkisg> Does it have gigabit networking?
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| 20:24 | http://global.shuttle.com/news/productsDetail?productId=2114 says "yes" to gigabit
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| 20:24 | So, it should boot in less than a minute, and it should be able to show full screen youtube
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| 20:25 | If it doesn't do that, it needs some better configuration or something
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| 20:27 | <Leolo_2> right
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| 20:27 | but it doesn't
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| 20:27 | and the slow down is long before it gets to X
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| 20:28 | <alkisg> What's the output of `dmesg` ?
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| 20:32 | <Leolo_2> I can't even get that far
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| 20:33 | I mean there's a 3 minute delay between "dracut: Mounted root" and "dracut: Switching root"
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| 20:33 | <alkisg> Dracut? Not ltsp?
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| 20:33 | <Leolo_2> i'm using LTSP on CentOS
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| 20:33 | <alkisg> Ah, I don't know if that boots anywhere
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| 20:33 | :D
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| 20:34 | It's been unmaintained for ages
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| 20:34 | <Leolo_2> tell me about it
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| 20:34 | but I have it working. I have about 50 users on it. they are using FitPC2 computers
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| 20:34 | <alkisg> You could give it a try with ubuntu if you want, maybe some more recent kernel will make a difference
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| 20:34 | !install
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| 20:34 | <ltsp> install: http://wiki.ltsp.org/wiki/Installation/Ubuntu for Ubuntu, or http://wiki.ltsp.org/wiki/Installation for other distributions
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| 20:35 | <alkisg> Not to change the distro; just to see if it's possible to make it work
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| 20:35 | <Leolo_2> but those have to be ordered from Israel when we want to replace them, so we are looking for something with better availability
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| 20:35 | <alkisg> Intel nucs then?
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| 20:35 | <Leolo_2> also, something faster so the supervisors can use flash
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| 20:35 | the DX30 is a NUC
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| 20:36 | I thought NUC was an "idea" rather then a specific product
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| 20:36 | <alkisg> I think it's a series of very specific products
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| 20:37 | See pics here (text in greek): https://www.skroutz.gr/c/329/barebones.html?keyphrase=mini+pc+intel+nuc
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| 20:38 | You could get i3 NUCs, they should offer very good performance, although at a higher price
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| 20:38 | <Leolo_2> are you in greece?
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| 20:38 | <alkisg> Yup
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| 20:38 | * alkisg would love an i7 6770HQ one | |
| 20:39 | <alkisg> https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7-6770HQ+%40+2.60GHz&id=2759 => 9711 score, 8 times faster than the DX30 :D
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| 20:46 | <fiesh> it's really fascinating... our server now is _5_ years old, but its two CPUs each have a score of 21488 and are thus basically still super top notch
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| 20:46 | 20 years ago, anything older than 2 years was outdated garbage
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| 20:51 | <Leolo_2> the transistors in CPUs can't get much smaller, or they become suceptible to quantum effects
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| 20:51 | we've been in a performance plateau for a while now
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| 20:52 | I doubt CPUs will get much faster. which is why we are seeing quad core in cell phones
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| 20:53 | alksig - 20 minutes later and the DX30 is still trying to finish udev initialization
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| 21:09 | <||cw> it's mostly more cores, faster ram and IO buses, and less power use
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| 21:09 | which is fine, storage has been my bottleneck for some time.
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| 21:10 | <fiesh> ram is still brutally slow, but I'm not sure that'll change
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| 21:10 | in fact, I think ram has become slower compared to CPU performance
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| 21:12 | <Leolo_2> Detected CPU family 6 model 92
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| 21:12 | Warning: Intel CPU model - this hardware has not undergone testing by Red Hat and might not be certified. Please consult https://hardware.redhat.com for certified hardware.
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| 21:13 | <||cw> fiesh: latency has gone up, but throughput has increased to offset it in most uses
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| 21:14 | <Leolo_2> alkisg - here's the dmesg http://awale.qc.ca/ltsp/dx30-dmesg.txt
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| 21:14 | booting took about 30 minutes
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| 21:14 | but I got to xdm, which is a first
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| 21:27 | <fiesh> ||cw: yeah, throughput is better, but memory latency is oftentimes the biggest bottleneck for common software, especially older one that wasn't written with data locality in mind since it wasn't a thing back then...
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| 21:47 | <Leolo_2> woooo ! think I'm getting some progress. If I boot with kernel-ml off the HDD, the problem seems to clear up
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| 21:48 | yep !
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| 21:48 | 2 minutes to install kernel-lt is expected result
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| 21:51 | fyi, kernel-ml is the mainline kernel packaged for CentOS (currently 4.17.6) and kernel-lt is the long term kernel (currently 4.4.140)
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| 22:03 | <derick_> How can I use guestlogin and autologin feature together?
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