IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 29 May 2014   (all times are UTC)

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04:52
<cyberorg>
bucko, any reason you are using xen? test with real hardware client
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07:23
<Hyperbyte>
Hey Alkis. :-) Today is a national holiday in the Netherlands, so I'm off to the radio station in a bit to upgrade the fat client server from 12.04 to 14.04. It's running ltsp-pnp. Anything I should take into account? Any known problems with the upgrade I should keep in mind?
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08:15
<work_alkisg>
Hyperbyte: hello! Dunno, I'm waiting for all you guys to upgrade and test-drive the process before I tell teachers here to try it :D
08:15work_alkisg is now known as alkisg
08:15
<alkisg>
I do think there's a serious problem with nbd-server though...
08:15
vmlintu knows more about that
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08:40
<Hyperbyte>
Oh?
08:40
I haven't ran into any problems.
08:40
Well except that the naming of the nbd export was wrong
08:41
It was named /opt/ltsp/i386/ while it should've been named ltsp_i386
08:41
And I have some problems where permissions in /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/vmlinuz are wrong after ltsp-update-kernels
08:41
(not world readable)
08:53
<alkisg>
Hyperbyte: /opt/ltsp/i386 is the correct name
08:53
ltsp_i386 is the old, bad one
08:53
The problems with vmlinuz could be because you're not using the default umask?
08:58
<Hyperbyte>
alkisg, I haven't changed the umask I think. I didn't have the problems before the upgrade.
08:58
If ltsp_i386 is the old, then /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/pxelinux.cfg/default is wrong after upgrade to 14.04
08:59
<alkisg>
It could be... ubuntu keeps a .diff from debian in the packaging, so not many people are testing it
08:59
(people using the ppa have the debian packaging, not ubuntu's...)
08:59
<Hyperbyte>
I'm using standard Ubuntu packaging on the machine I've already upgraded.
08:59
<alkisg>
Right, it could have problems, sure
09:00
Report whatever you find to ubuntu
09:00
I.e. not upstream ltsp bugs, but ubuntu bugs
09:00
<Hyperbyte>
When I find some time, I'll do that.
09:00
<alkisg>
I don't know if stgraber will want to update the packaging though
09:01
I've been telling him to use the debian packaging for years, but he's worried about upgrade issues,
09:01
and I think that this is causing more support issues that it solves... but that's a subjective opinion
09:12
<Hyperbyte>
a-ha!
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09:49* wouter warns people that if they say "nbd", I've seen it ;)
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10:45
<work_alkisg>
wouter: you talked with vmlinut about that
10:45
I think it's reported upstream with some patches waiting to be committed
10:46
I don't have the link handy, it's the issue with the random source port not being random
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11:36
<Hyperbyte>
wouter, what's the problem you're running into?
11:42
<work_alkisg>
Hyperbyte: he wasn't; he was trying to help _us_ ltsp users with any nbd problems we might have
11:43
But vmlinut already reported it and is tracking it, so I don't think we need to worry...
11:43* work_alkisg hasn't been paying much attention to that particular bug
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12:23
<wouter>
um, hrm
12:23
I don't recall that
12:23
will look into it
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13:34
<bennabiy>
work_alkisg: The bug relating to the kernel 3.13 and higher?
13:35
http://www.spinics.net/lists/netdev/msg282079.html
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16:18
<pogopuschel_>
Hello! Does anyone here have experience with the usage of BerryTerminal and LTSP? :)
16:19
<vagrantc>
my brief experience convinced me to develop proper LTSP support for the raspberry pi
16:20
but your experience may differ
16:20
<pogopuschel_>
After logging in, I just get a blank screen and a x with ubuntu server 14.04. The .xsession-errors has some information in it, but I can't seem to find a proper solution on google
16:21
<vagrantc>
proper solution is probably to use a different desktop environment
16:21
<pogopuschel_>
Like without unity?
16:21
<vagrantc>
yeah
16:21
gnome-flashback, maybe?
16:21
!gnome-flashback
16:21
<ltsp>
I do not know about 'gnome-flashback', but I do know about these similar topics: 'gnome-fallback'
16:21
<pogopuschel_>
Mh, that could work.
16:21
<vagrantc>
!gnome-fallback
16:21
<ltsp>
gnome-fallback: Unity, compiz etc are sometimes slow or buggy. To select gnome-fallback as your default session, install the gnome-session-fallback package, and put this in your lts.conf: LDM_SESSION="gnome-session --session=gnome-fallback"
16:22* vagrantc wonders if that advice is dated...
16:22
<pogopuschel_>
Haha, probably :)
16:22
<vagrantc>
xubuntu or lubuntu might also be options, though they have a fe of their own glitches
16:23
<pogopuschel_>
So why does a desktop environment like unity not work on a thin client like berryterminal?
16:24
<vagrantc>
because a lot of modern desktop features require hardware acceleration that doesn't work well over the network.
16:25
developers are making assumptions that the software is running on the local hardware, with lots of swap space, and various other assumptions...
16:26
which is why LTSP development may shift more and more to fatclients
16:27
<pogopuschel_>
Hm, I see. So there is basically no chance to get that running over the network?
16:27
<vagrantc>
we'd love to hear about success stories, but it'll be challenging, at best.
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16:29
<pogopuschel_>
How does edubuntu do that?
16:30
XFCE?
16:31
<BuckO>
@vagrantc ... sure about fatcs? i'm seeing more and more 'only what is necessary' instalations in companies with terminal adjusted software..
16:41
<alkisg>
pogopuschel_: it uses gnome-flashback
16:41
<pogopuschel_>
I see.
16:41
<alkisg>
vagrantc: the advice is still valid (transitional packages) so let's leave it there until more people are using 14.04 than 12.04
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16:43
<alkisg>
(or, until jessie is out)
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16:50
<vagrantc>
BuckO: that's good news, but major players like gnome3 and libreoffice and firefox definitely seem to forget network transparency...
16:52
<championofcyrodi>
i just dealt with opennx->freenx-server on ubuntu 14.04 yesterday. Ultimately ended up installing xubuntu-desktop alongside the base installation to support NX session=startxfce4
16:53
There seems to be an issue with checking for graphics acceleration in gnome
16:53
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-session/+bug/1251281
17:01
<gbaman>
alkisg and vagrantc: That moment you discover that you are using NBD and that is why all the tweaks you have been trying havent been doing anything...
17:02
<vagrantc>
and people wonder why debian still defaults to NFS...
17:02
<gbaman>
:)
17:02
<vagrantc>
admittedly, NFS is good for the tweaking phase, and NBD is generally good for production...
17:02
<gbaman>
haha, well I switched back to NFS and it still didnt work, was trying to sort desktop backgrounds
17:03
<vagrantc>
"sort" ?
17:03
<gbaman>
now just have a giant stretched Raspberry across my screen
17:03
<vagrantc>
heh
17:03
<gbaman>
well trying to have a desktop background other than the usual debian one
17:04
the desktop-background.xml file is right..
17:04
is there a standard way to set the desktop background for all users?
17:06
<championofcyrodi>
I use the pam mkhomedir module with the /etc/skel folder to include default settings.
17:07
<gbaman>
actually, scratch that, fixed :)
17:09
<alkisg>
gbaman: a sysadmin can export his chroots with NFS for himself/testing, and with NBD for users/production, making testing easier ON a production environment... fortunately we fixed LTSP in recent version so that to select between NFS/NBD, one only needs a different cmdline
17:10
<gbaman>
Because pis have kernel on SD card and initrd, it is as simple as switching the cmdline.txt file out to switch back and forth :)
17:11
and is a single button in Raspi-LTSP to generate a new SD card image with the config files switched
17:12
<vagrantc>
it would be interesting to be able to select from an initramfs menu...
17:13
but i think initramfs-tools at least doesn't make that easy...
17:13
many of the scripts read from /proc/cmdline, and i don't think that's editable.
17:13* vagrantc waves
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17:16
<alkisg>
One can bind-mount over /proc/cmdline, although it's considered evil
17:17* alkisg thinks it's more evil to have the need to do that because no good alternative method is provided
17:18* vagrantc doesn't believe in genuine evil, but bind-mounts do allow something mighty close.
17:20
<alkisg>
vagrantc: RE: LP #1324545, so you're inclined to mark that as "won't fix"?
17:21
(of course the easy workaround there is for the sysadmin that knows the risks, to remove that line from ltsp-update-image.excludes)
17:22
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i think there are several bugs there, but i don't agree with the proposed fixes.
17:23
<alkisg>
I think it's the kind of bug that stays open for years, if we don't be very specific on what we want to do with it
17:24
<vagrantc>
i don't see exposing the server's private ssh keys as valid, and any sysadmin who doesn't get that, i question weather they should be a sysadmin...
17:24
alkisg: i just saw some very alarming assertions made and wanted to respond to them... but i do think it's worth coming up with some better options
17:25
<alkisg>
Gotcha
17:25
For ltsp-pnp, I don't want the (server's) ssh server running by default in thin/fat clients, but I can easily do that in the cleanup phase without affecting how chroots work
17:26
Like I do with passwd/shadow, i.e. removing all users
17:26
<vagrantc>
yeah, i thought there was passwd/shadow handling
17:26
<alkisg>
(currently that ltsp-update-image.excludes line, is what prevents sshd from running in ltsp-pnp clients)
17:27
(although I also regenerate the ssh keys in the cleanup phase, before omitting them with .excludes :D)
17:27
<vagrantc>
i don't really like this, but you could generate ssh host keys for the thin clients during ltsp-update-image or something...
17:28
<alkisg>
Done in /usr/share/ltsp/cleanup.d/50-ssh-keys
17:28
errr
17:28
<vagrantc>
you'd have a known key for all the thin clients, which has some security implications, but it's not as bad as the host keys being exported
17:28
<alkisg>
In /usr/share/ltsp/cleanup.d/51-sshd
17:28
<vagrantc>
er, not as bad as server host keys...
17:29
<alkisg>
I.e. we already do that
17:29
<vagrantc>
for ltsp-pnp
17:29
<alkisg>
Right
17:29
For --cleanup
17:29
You can use --cleanup with normal chroots too
17:29
<vagrantc>
do you regenerate them every time an image is built?
17:29
<alkisg>
It's designed for trhat
17:29
Yes
17:29
<vagrantc>
might be worth saving those for subsequent generation....
17:30
could stash them in /etc/ltsp/ or something
17:30
<alkisg>
In theory, ltsp-update-image --cleanup (without / like ltsp-pnp does it), tries to take care of all those security issues
17:31
<championofcyrodi>
vagrantc: adding something like, option host-name "hostname.domain.com"; to the dhcpd.conf now, to see if the client picks up the hostname from DHCP
17:33
<vagrantc>
championofcyrodi: is that a question or a statement?
17:33
<championofcyrodi>
statement.
17:33
i meant to try it yesterday when I asked, but got tied up with something else
17:34
<vagrantc>
i'd be interested to know if it works
17:34
<alkisg>
vagrantc: maybe ltsp-update-image can (1) create random keys, (2) put them in the server's trusted keys list, and (3) delete the server's trusted keys from the previous ltsp-update-image run?
17:35
Erm I'm missing one thing
17:35
Sorry, will re-state that in a while :)
17:35
<vagrantc>
alkisg: what do you mean by trusted keys?
17:35
<championofcyrodi>
on the note of chroots, I am curious about a working method to 'backup
17:35
' the image and be able to deploy to a new LTSP server.
17:35
<vagrantc>
in /etc/ssh/ssh_known_hosts ?
17:36
<alkisg>
vagrantc: yes, to be able to run `ssh ltspclient` without prompt
17:36
<vagrantc>
championofcyrodi: just copy the file to the new server
17:36
<alkisg>
But I'm missing the part where we don't want that in nbd :-/
17:36
<vagrantc>
alkisg: you'd need one entry per hostname...
17:36
<alkisg>
(the sshd key)
17:37
<vagrantc>
championofcyrodi: and then run ltsp-update-kernels and ltsp-update-sshkeys on the new server
17:37
<championofcyrodi>
ahh that's the part i missed. (ltsp-update-sshkeys)
17:38
i tried to tar.gz the chroot and re-use it, but i only used update-kernels and image.
17:38
And everytime i tried to log in, it would fail the login and reset back to the login screen.
17:39
<alkisg>
vagrantc: http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/trusty/en/man8/sshd.8.html#contenttoc7 => "Hostnames is a comma-separated list of patterns (‘*’ and ‘?’ act as wildcards); "
17:39
==> ltsp*
17:40
<championofcyrodi>
vagrantc: rebooting my client now to see if the dhcp change worked...
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17:40
<vagrantc>
championofcyrodi: making a tarball is easy to get some things wrong, just copy the NBD file
17:41
alkisg: oh wow!
17:41
<alkisg>
vagrantc: since we're on that subject... currently the ltsp clients know the server as "server"
17:41
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i wonder how many years ago wildcard matching was introduced
17:41
<alkisg>
But if it's actually named "somethingelse", then cups doesn't work, because reverse dns fails
17:41
<vagrantc>
maybe we should stop hard-coding server?
17:41
<alkisg>
Right, I think that'd be the best
17:42
ltspd can reply with the server's real hostname
17:42
<vagrantc>
it made sense back when the assumption was the LTSP network was an isolated network, but yeah, we're beyond that now.
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17:42
<alkisg>
Even if it's isolated, cups won't work
17:43
<vagrantc>
sure
17:43
<championofcyrodi>
awesomesauce...
17:43
it worked
17:43
vagrantc: add a feather to your cap.
17:44
<alkisg>
So vagrantc will be a fedora guy? :-/
17:47
<championofcyrodi>
oh yea... it was an expression... i forgot it's relevant to another linux distro...
17:47
hrm... now my short hostname appears to be the FQDN... trying something diff...
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17:49
<vagrantc>
i was the first person to get a proof-of-concept fedora implementation of ltsp5, believe it or not...
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17:50
<vagrantc>
not that it worked or anything
17:53
<championofcyrodi>
Unable to show a dialog outside the UI thread message loop: Google Chrome - The profile appears to be in use by another Google Chrome process (1854) on another computer (ltsp550). Chrome has locked the profile so that it doesn't get corrupted. If you are sure no other processes are using this profile, you can unlock the profile and relaunch Chrome.
17:54
ltsp550 was the old name, lol.
17:54
now, how to 'unlock the profile'. Since apparently I can.
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17:58
<vagrantc>
ouch
17:59
worst case is wiping out the ~/.chrome or whatever dir and starting with a clean slate
17:59
<championofcyrodi>
got it, rm ~/.config/google-chrome/SingletonLock
17:59
<vagrantc>
it'd loose bookmarks and other data
17:59
good aim!
17:59
<championofcyrodi>
So it looks like I have two choices with the host name...
17:59
set it to FQDN, or not.
18:00
i guess its okay not to, since DNS will resolve the FQDN
18:01
i had some issues with Cloudera Management software and FQDNs. Apparently the python socket library will not resolve the FQDN as 'null' if it is not specified in the DNS or hosts file.
18:01
will resolve the FQDN as null*
18:02
is it okay for $ hostname to resolve the FQDN on linux? instead of the short hostname?
18:05
on the default ubuntu 14.04 installer, i specify the fqdn for the computer name.
18:05
Then running hostname shows the 'short' hostname; while running hostname --fqdn will resolve the full name.
18:06
but with the ltsp client, I'm getting the same value for both
18:06
regardless of how it is specified in the dhcp settings
18:07
This  option  specifies  the  name of the client.  The name may or may not be qualified with the local domain name (it is preferable to use the domain-name option  to  specify the  domain  name).   See RFC 1035 for character set restrictions.  This option is only honored by dhclient-script(8) if the hostname for the client machine is not set.
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20:58* Hyperbyte is totally confused right now
20:59
<Hyperbyte>
ltsp-update-kernels on 14.04 keeps symlinking a kernel from 12.04. Even though that kernel is nowhere to be found on my machine. If I delete the 3.5.0 files, it just recopies them from somewhere...
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21:04
<||cw>
they aren't in the chroot's /boot?
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21:05
<Hyperbyte>
ltsp-pnp
21:06
I removed the packages and the files for the old kernel in /boot
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21:13
<Hyperbyte>
Nuts.
21:13
Can't find anything 3.5.0 related on my system, yet LTSP manages to dig it up once I run ltsp-update-kernels
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21:16
<Hyperbyte>
WTF... pxelinux.cfg/default is riddled with 3.5.0 references too
21:16
But I can't find them ANYWHERE on my system
21:17
LTSP started smoking crack on 14.04
21:23
<championofcyrodi>
Hyperbyte: I recall having some issues with the ltsp-update scripts in that they were updating using information in /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/
21:23
as well as /opt/ltsp
21:24
I don't remember what i concluded of the situation, but it did seem like what i thought would be updated from /opt/ltsp was actually being pulled from /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp, or vice versa, I can't recall anymore.
21:25
<Hyperbyte>
Yeah, it seems to have stopped now... it's -NUTS- I tell you!
21:26
<championofcyrodi>
"software is nice when it works."
21:26
<Hyperbyte>
:P
21:27
<championofcyrodi>
I'm still nervous about rolling out more thick clients to my infra... we have about 50 developers who are going to tear them apart, so i need to make sure they're rock solid first.
21:28
I chose 14.04 because I wanted to get as much support(time) as I could with these things.
21:28
anyway, i just finished fixing mail server issues, calling it a day. good luck!
21:39
<Hyperbyte>
Ciao!
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