IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 23 March 2012   (all times are UTC)

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08:17
<Hyperbyte>
Hey Alkis, morning. :-)
08:21
<alkisg>
Morning Hyperbyte, how's the weather there?
08:21
Good for skiing in the enormous 300m mountains? :P
08:25
<Hyperbyte>
eh?
08:25
You kidding me?
08:25
It's almost summer here, if you go by the weather.
08:25
15 degrees or so during daytime...
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08:39
<elias_a>
Hyperbyte: Alkis knows you guys do downhill skiing on artificial grass like the english do... :P
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08:45* alkisg hates pidgin for not notifying him about disconnects....
08:45
<alkisg>
(10:28:18 πμ) ***alkisg still goes skiing with his kids almost every Saturday here :)
08:46
<muppis>
alkisg, you should get irssi and screen for yourself.
08:47
<alkisg>
I tried irssi and weechat and screen and everything, but I'm still a GUI guy, I like the popup notifications and sounds and all...
08:47
<muppis>
Bummer. ;)
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09:07
<elias_a>
alkisg: Tell us about your other small perversions! :P
09:07
alkisg: Just kidding. How about deciding the date?
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09:08
<alkisg>
Hehe... let me ask the other guy, Yiannis, about it...
09:44
<elias_a>
alkisg: I am here for the rest of the day... no hurry...
09:44
<alkisg>
elias_a: thanks, Yiannis seems to not be around now, I guess he'll respond later on
09:46
<elias_a>
alkisg: Ok. No sweat.
09:46
alkisg: Where in Greece are you located=
09:46
?
09:46
<alkisg>
elias_a: in Ioannina
09:47
<elias_a>
alkisg: Ok.
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09:48
<alkisg>
elias_a: Yiannis just showed up, is Wednesday at 10:00 ok?
09:49
<elias_a>
alkisg: Roger that - it is OK.
09:49
<alkisg>
Cool
09:49
<elias_a>
alkisg: I just wanted to know it before I start "marketing" the event to the audience.
09:50
Finns know but as for the Scandinavians I want to have a fixed timepoint before I let them know...
09:50
<alkisg>
elias_a: when you're ready, please send some email with the proposed questions, and who will be attending etc
09:51
<elias_a>
"Let us discuss when it will be held..." :P
09:51
<alkisg>
So that maybe we try to include some other people from here, even text based if there are too many to use the video thing
09:51
<elias_a>
alkisg: Oh, sorry. I already posted it here. Just a moment.
09:52
alkisg: Here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JIRk9QG_QZR-kKpKw7rWUi8soIae2tr9ltXYUDkvM94/edit
09:53
I can handle around 50 participants so it will be no problem IMHO.
09:53
<alkisg>
Thanks!
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09:57
<elias_a>
alkisg: I can see you there :)
09:58
One thing we might want to bring up that both Greece and Finland are active in using LTSP.
09:58
<alkisg>
elias_a: we also both have google maps of some schools that use it (I took the idea from you): http://goo.gl/maps/nOoQ
09:58
<elias_a>
alkisg: I would like to break down two myths: 1) that free sw is el cheapo crap for those who cannot afford.
09:59
<alkisg>
elias_a: what are the duties of most of the people that will be attending? teachers? or just anyone interested in floss in schools?
09:59
<elias_a>
2) That using LTSP would be of this nature. IMHO LTSP is top of the line in every sense.
09:59
alkisg: The latter. And I do not know.
10:00
We could use a sign-up -form?
10:00
<alkisg>
Yeah in the future I want to push having only linux servers in schools, and people needing windows will boot them via LTSP + thin client-based vbox VMs
10:00
A sign-up form sounds nice, indeed
10:01
<elias_a>
alkisg: Or a backround interest form.
10:02
alkisg: Maybe we could just add it into the text doc?
10:02
<alkisg>
Maybe mentioning that there's a limit of attendees will also help in getting them to sign up
10:02
(not that we should expect more :))
10:04
<elias_a>
alkisg: Actually I think this is going to be hot stuff.
10:04
<alkisg>
There are services like http://www.surveymonkey.com/ with which people can fill their names, or a google sheet will also do
10:06
<elias_a>
alkisg: I have also a plethora of those in my use.
10:07
alkisg: I just do not want to chop the planning into too many separate parts.
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10:07
<elias_a>
I also want the attendees to see the whole DIY nature of this event.
10:07
<siahos>
hi
10:08
<alkisg>
elias_a: siahos is my other colleague I was talking about
10:08
<siahos>
hi elias_a
10:08
<alkisg>
siahos: you can see the log so far from http://irclogs.ltsp.org
10:08
<elias_a>
The spirit being "If you want to get out something out of this yo have to join, engage and contribute."
10:08
siahos: Hi!
10:11
<siahos>
elias_a: could you give me more details about the upcoming event?
10:12
<elias_a>
siahos: What kind of details?
10:13
<siahos>
the agenda, its purpose, the audience etc
10:13
<elias_a>
Agenda is in the planning doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JIRk9QG_QZR-kKpKw7rWUi8soIae2tr9ltXYUDkvM94/edit
10:14
The purpose is also there: let you tell what you have done to LTSP community.
10:14
<siahos>
ok can you let yannis.siahos@gmail.com to edit this?
10:15
<elias_a>
siahos: Is it not editable now?
10:15
Sorry - my mistake.
10:15
Now you can edit!
10:16
siahos: Please tell me if editing works.
10:16
<siahos>
ok
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11:06
<Hyperbyte>
09:39 <elias_a> Hyperbyte: Alkis knows you guys do downhill skiing on artificial grass like the english do... :P
11:06
We do?
11:06
I know there's some snowboarding/skiing facilities here with those "rolling" ski lanes :\
11:07
I don't care for it either way...
11:09
<knipwim>
longboarding for the win in the Netherlands
11:09
<elias_a>
Hyperbyte: You are absolutely correct. Cross country skiing is the winner.
11:09
<knipwim>
our biking lanes are very smooth
11:10
<elias_a>
knipwim: Longboarding?
11:11
<knipwim>
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/72/Longboard_skateboard.jpg/300px-Longboard_skateboard.jpg
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11:12
<elias_a>
knipwim: Having one aching leg and no muscles in upper body a winning strategy? Sure :D
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11:54
<siahos>
elias_a: I did some changes in the document, trying to give answers to your questions. If you have more questions just fill the document and let me know
11:56
<elias_a>
siahos: OK. I will start spreading info about the webinar. I will also share the link to the planning doc.
11:57
alkisg, siahos : Let's make this a good show!
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12:05
<siahos>
elias_a: ok
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12:13
<alkisg>
elias_a: hope so :)
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12:40
<elias_a>
alkisg, siahos: Well - I have some experience making these things happen. :)
12:41
<alkisg>
elias_a: if you want us to talk about epoptes too, put a couple of questions about it, and I'll ask Phantomas (the other epoptes dev) to join as well
12:41
!epoptes
12:41
<ltsp>
alkisg: epoptes: Epoptes is a computer lab administration and monitoring tool. It works on Ubuntu and Debian based labs with LTSP or non-LTSP servers, thin and fat clients, standalone workstations, NX clients etc. More info: http://www.epoptes.org
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14:07
<alkisg>
Is "ltsp-server-pnp" a good name for a new package that will try to do everything automatically? (use dnsmasq, work with either 1 or 2 NICs, not need ltsp-update-sshkeys, provide appropriate dnsmasq.conf and lts.conf, a pxelinux graphical menu for choosing chroots etc)
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14:08
<muppis>
pnp as in plug-and-pra...play?
14:08
<ogra_>
pray and pay !
14:08
<alkisg>
Heh, yup
14:08
<muppis>
Sounds good.
14:09
<highvoltage>
alkisg: there are limits to what packages can do automatically, it might be a good idea to rather have it as a script in an existing ltsp-server package
14:09
(but yeah, many people would appreciate something like that)
14:09
<alkisg>
highvoltage: I've tested that as part of sch-scripts the last 2 years, it worked pretty good for special use cases (schools etc that don't care so much about security and dont' have sysadmins)
14:10
So I want to strip that part of the functionality, i18n it, and then after it gets tested in broader audience, we can get its good parts and put them upstream in ltsp
14:11
The base idea is:
14:11
* client side: install an OS in vbox or real client, and ltsp-client and ldm-*-theme, done
14:11
* server side: install ltsp-server-pnp, run ltsp-publish-image <path-to-vbox-vdi>, done
14:12
Same for any fat desktop, and if one wants thin clients, he can use ubuntu-minimal or a light DE like lubuntu
14:13
At least greek schools will work with that for the next 2 years with 12.04, so we'll have 300+ schools as testers
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14:47
<elias_a>
alkisg: I think that will be of interest, too :)
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15:44
<Hyperbyte>
I really like our new meeting room!
15:44
http://twitgoo.com/5ml1yu
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16:06
<alkisg>
vagrantc: howdy, got time for a bit of chat about the pxelinux menus again? I'll start to implement it soonish...
16:11
<vagrantc>
alkisg: sure. if we come up with something good, we might get dba to include it in debian's syslinux package.
16:11
alkisg: although i'd like to try to upload epoptes today.
16:11
and ltsp...
16:12
<alkisg>
OK let's leave the chat for some other time then :D
16:12
<vagrantc>
but can probably wrap those up fairly quickly
16:13
alkisg: so there have been a few translation updates ... should i call it epoptes 0.5.0.1 or just go straight for 0.5.1?
16:13
<alkisg>
Why not 0.5.0-1 ?
16:13
Is it considered a new upstream version?
16:13
(with the new translations)
16:14
About pxelinux, my main idea is a plugin system with scripts, where each script can handle certain files. For ltsp, we look at ltsp/*/pxelinux.cfg/default, and grab the kernel cmdline from there, while other plugins can detect/handle memtest, freedos, .img floppies etc
16:15
Depend: syslinux for vesamenu, plus a nice background, either static or dynamically generated with imagemagick from some other picture (ldm themes etc)
16:15
So one would just run 'update-pxelinux-menus', no options
16:15
<vagrantc>
alkisg: well, i could ship the new translations as patches and call it 0.5.0-1 ... but yes, any changes outside of the debian dir will be a new upstream version.
16:16
<alkisg>
vagrantc: just go with 0.5.1 then
16:16
<vagrantc>
and i figured i may as well ship with changes
16:17
alkisg: so, essentially do what we're doing now, plus another wrapper that parses that information into something new?
16:18
<alkisg>
I'm also going to implement (again) ltsp-server-pnp, dnsmasq based, automatic configuration etc, mostly for schools without sysadmins, so that shouldn't go in any distro without getting more testing for some time. And I was wondering if the pxelinux menus should be a separate package, or if I should put it inside ltsp-server-pnp to save me some packaging time...
16:18
<vagrantc>
alkisg: if we make a good proposal for the pxelinux stuff, we can get it in debian.
16:18
in syslinux
16:19
<alkisg>
vagrantc: now we're putting ltsp-specific options from $CHROOT/.../update-kernels, that will still be needed to generate pxelinux.cfg/default files, that new update-pxelinux-menus wrapper will only handle what's already in the tftp dir
16:19
<vagrantc>
alkisg: cool.
16:20
i also have use-cases for using ifcpu64 detection now ... i want to make sure it supports multiple kernel variants
16:20
<alkisg>
OK, so I start with writing the code first, and I'll ping you when I have it ready for comments on both the code + the packaging strategy
16:21
Ideally it should only show menus that the client can boot with
16:21
<vagrantc>
i.e. a single i386 chroot can have 486, pae and amd64 kernel variants...
16:21
alkisg: you can set up hidden menus that ifcpu64 will boot the appropriate entry
16:21
i also want to be able to support both NFS and NBD...
16:22
<alkisg>
Also, for ltsp, if multiple kernels are present, it'd be nice to show them all
16:22
That nfs/nbd part should go to the ltsp code though
16:22
The generic update-pxelinux-menus can't know what the initramfs supports
16:22
(at least not without some files that have hints for it)
16:23
But the ltsp code can drop a script in /etc/pxelinux-menus.d to handle all that
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17:20
<elias_a>
alkisg, siahos: Thanks for good input in planning document!
17:21
<alkisg>
elias_a: you're welcome, although siahos did most of the work, I'm more of a coding guy :)
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17:21
<elias_a>
alkisg, siahos: This is going to be one parrot show. I will tell you guys which answer to repeat :D
17:22
<alkisg>
Haha, I hope participants ask their own questions too
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17:42
<elias_a>
Me too.
17:42
So do I
17:43
I second that opinion!
17:43
:P
17:55
<vagrantc>
alkisg: so, which are the files i need to edit for a new upstream version?
17:55
alkisg: in epoptes
17:55
epoptes-client/epoptes-client and epoptes/__init__.py ?
17:56
<alkisg>
vagrantc: yup, fgrep -r '0.5.0' *
17:56
In the long run I hope I'll be able to automate that :-/
17:56
<vagrantc>
alkisg: could add entries in debian/rules that fail to build if they don't match
17:57
i've done that on at least one other package i maintain
17:57
<alkisg>
Ideally I'd prefer to only have the version in the changelog, nowhere else
17:57
Maybe setup.py could replace it in all the files
17:57
<vagrantc>
in the debian/changelog ? that's not good upstream behavior :)
17:58
<alkisg>
I need to look at how python manages that...
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17:58
<vagrantc>
alkisg: what about shipping /usr/share/epoptes/VERSION /usr/share/epoptes-client/VERSION files?
17:58
<alkisg>
If upstream was ever to stop containing debian/, then it would need a separate changelog, so it would use that
17:58
No, I think I prefer the changelog in all cases, either debian/changelog or upstream ./Changelog
17:59
Less things to edit on each release :D
17:59* vagrantc likes autogenerating ChangeLog from vcs
17:59
<alkisg>
That would work too
17:59
Even less work... I like being lazy with that stuff :)
18:00
<vagrantc>
alkisg: are those strings really automatically updated by mkdst?
18:00
<alkisg>
vagrantc: I have a small script that does that, yes, nothing fancy though
18:01
Just a couple of seds
18:01
<vagrantc>
alkisg: need to update any of the po files or anything on release?
18:02
<alkisg>
vagrantc: no, launchpad updates the po's, I never touch them
18:02* vagrantc will tag epoptes 0.5.1 shortly
18:02
<alkisg>
:)
18:02
<vagrantc>
maybe we should have launchpad update the po stuff for ldm/ltsp too
18:02
<alkisg>
vagrantc: it might be good for .... ^
18:02
<vagrantc>
i've not done a good job of requesting translations lately
18:03
and some translators seem totally unresponsive
18:03
<alkisg>
It's also easier for people to translate them and it's not a burden for the developers to ask/merge translations etc
18:04
<vagrantc>
a number of the debian translation teams prefer to be able to peer-review the translations, which i'm not sure launchpad handles well
18:04
launchpad also doesn't seem to give credit or attribution for the individuals who contribute translations :(
18:04
<alkisg>
They do, but they keep it on launchpad
18:04
Even on a per-string basis
18:04* vagrantc would like to see that in the project itself
18:05
<alkisg>
Yeah it even strips the emails from the headers
18:07
<vagrantc>
meh.
18:07
if launchpad would fix that, i'd be much more willing to use those translations.
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18:07
<alkisg>
But in the end, epoptes managed to already get 18 translations, I guess that's what matters most for end users
18:09
<vagrantc>
it's true, i just want to encourage people to contribute- i know what got me hooked was the early on recognition that i helped.
18:09
<alkisg>
True, but seeing their names on launchpad is good enough for junior translators
18:09
<vagrantc>
alkisg: could you manually generate a list of attributions from launchpad, and then commit that somehow?
18:10
or even have a post-commit hook that does that...
18:11
<alkisg>
E.g. https://translations.launchpad.net/epoptes/trunk/+pots/epoptes/hu/+translate
18:11
It's possible to make a script that parses that and gets the names etc
18:11
But it'd be much work, I wonder if launchpad has another interface for that
18:12
<vagrantc>
could hope.
18:13
alkisg: when i go to that URL, it gives me two choices ... license unnder BSD license, or not license at all ... but then the files it commits say it's licensed under whatever the project wants it to be licensed under.
18:13
not good.
18:14
license inconsistancies are a ticking time bomb.
18:15
<alkisg>
Ah here's a better page to get the contributor names: https://translations.launchpad.net/epoptes/trunk/+pots/epoptes/hu/+details
18:15
"Contributors to this translation" ...
18:15
<vagrantc>
on a per-translation basis...
18:15
<alkisg>
I heard something about the move of translations to BSD a couple of years ago, but I didn't have time to read much about it
18:16
If one makes a script to parse one page, parsing all pages is easy, the URL can be generated by the po/* files
18:18
<vagrantc>
the licensing discrepancies are weird, though.
18:19
<alkisg>
Overall I think it's worth it for projects with only a few translations though
18:19
To translate epoptes from launchpad, less than 1 hour is needed
18:20
<vagrantc>
yes, i recognize that that's a good thing, but the licensing discrepancies worry me.
18:20
<alkisg>
So while giving credit is a very good thing to do, making it easy to have the software translated in many languages is more important imho
18:20
<vagrantc>
i see them as unrelated issues
18:22
<alkisg>
I agree, I'd prefer it too if they fixed all the licensing problems. And also if they removed or at least made the software-center banner about paid apps a lot smaller, it takes half of my daughter's screen. But anyway I'm more focused on getting the job done. :)
18:23
<vagrantc>
i understand that :)
18:24
hopefully (and probably) that won't ever actually end up un-doing the job ... lack of attribution and false licensing are things that only matter when you're in a difficult situation and things are going badly.
18:25
<alkisg>
If they did solve all those problems that you mention though, more people and teams would be willing to put their projects to be translated in launchpad... I don't know why they don't try to cooperate more.
18:25
<vagrantc>
hear hear
18:28
<alkisg>
Ouch pxelinux doesn't make it easy to have international fonts... I guess the menus will be english-only (or latin anyway)
18:29
LTSP itself should put a LABEL part too, otherwise the auto-generated one will be too simplistic
18:29
Maybe looking at /etc/issue and mentioning the chroot name as well
18:30
(the chroot /etc/issue of course)
18:35
vagrantc: as a starting point, I think I should update the LTSP code to put in pxelinux.cfg/default *all* the kernels, and both nbd and nfs entries for them, if they're enabled (some flag somewhere). The newest kernel would go first.
18:36
Without pxe menus, that would behave as it does now, but with pxe menus, the update-pxelinux-menus script could easily pick them up then
18:36
<vagrantc>
alkisg: that makes sense.
18:36
<alkisg>
vagrantc: can I also stop generating the vmlinuz symlinks? Any reason to keep them?
18:36
<vagrantc>
alkisg: putting the vmlinuz/initrd.img symlink as the first entry
18:37
alkisg: i should really get rid of the symlinks for wheezy, and we should sort versions using linux-version
18:37
alkisg: dunno if ubuntu is shipping linux-version
18:37
we don't have a distro-independent way to compare versions.
18:38
presumeably the newest version should always be first?
18:38
or have a mechanism to select the default version
18:38
<alkisg>
Hehe, $ linux-version
18:38
Το πρόγραμμα 'linux-version' δεν είναι αυτή τη στιγμή εγκατεστημένο. Μπορείτε να το εγκαταστήσετε πληκτρολογώντας:
18:38
sudo apt-get install linux-base
18:38
$ LANG=C linux-version
18:38
Sorry, command-not-found has crashed! Please file a bug report at:
18:38
...
18:38
<vagrantc>
hah
18:38
looks like greek to me!
18:39
<alkisg>
I did try to paste the english text here, but it crashed on me :D
18:39
<vagrantc>
:)
18:39
<alkisg>
It seems it only works in greek :P
18:39
For update-pxelinux-menus, the default version would be in /etc/default/pxelinux-menus
18:39
(or pxemenus if we want a shorter project name)
18:40
Now for ltsp... hmm...
18:40
...yet another /etc/ltsp/update-kernels.conf variable?
18:40
<vagrantc>
alkisg: maybe this is something that should be implemented with a distro-specific function?
18:41
<alkisg>
The kernel sorting, yes, but the default, why?
18:41
<vagrantc>
ah.
18:41
<alkisg>
default=<most recent>, by default, or <specific filename> if manually specified (and it exists)
18:43
<vagrantc>
filename, or just version?
18:43
probably best to use filename, in case different distros have differing naming conventions
18:44
<alkisg>
I'd say either filename or index (after sorting them)
18:44
I think grub does the same
18:47
Maybe for starters we can do a small generic implementation similar to dpkg --compare-versions
18:47
vmlinuz-3.2.0-19-generic-pae > vmlinuz-3.2.0-3-generic-pae, but that's all
18:49
<vagrantc>
for the generic implementation, sort -n is probably good enough, and then distros can implement their own functions if needed?
18:49
<alkisg>
Try: sort -n <<EOF
18:49
vmlinuz-3.2.0-19-generic-pae
18:49
vmlinuz-3.2.0-3-generic-pae
18:49
vmlinuz-3.2.0-12-generic-pae
18:49
EOF
18:51
Do we have python as a dependency already? We could easily do it with python...
18:51
<vagrantc>
weird.
18:52* vagrantc wonders if copying linux-version would work
18:53
<vagrantc>
fork it and call it ltsp-linux-version ...
18:55
alkisg: epoptes shows up in the "Internet" menu on LXDE ... always seemed more like a "System Tools" sort of thing to me.
18:55
dunno if it shows up in a more logical place on gnome...
18:56
<alkisg>
vagrantc: x11vnc, remmina etc go there too
18:56
<muppis>
Isn't LXDE based on gnome? It read category from .desktop -file.
18:56
<alkisg>
That was my original "motivation", but if it makes more sense to put it in system tools, lets.
18:58
<vagrantc>
LXDE isn't based on GNOME, but they both implement freedesktop.org specs
18:58
<muppis>
vagrantc, I stand corrected.
18:58
<vagrantc>
alkisg: not sure what's better
18:59
muppis: you could recline corrected too, if you want :)
18:59
<muppis>
:D
18:59
<vagrantc>
(of course, like all specifications, sometimes the implementations vary a bit...)
19:00* vagrantc tries to upload epoptes 0.5.1-1 to debian
19:00
<vagrantc>
hopefully they've accepted my signing key update
19:00
i might be able to sign with the master key if i have to... though not sure how to trick gpg into doing that
19:01
adventures in gpg...
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19:17
<vagrantc>
ugh. really need to resolve the /usr/share/ltsp/ltsp-common-functions issue
19:17
or just conflict for the moment
19:18
it's a pretty corner-case i suspect that you want both ltsp-client and ltsp-server installed in the same machine.
19:18
although i recognize there are grandiose plans for the future... :)
19:19
<knipwim>
perhaps with a ltsp-libs package
19:20
on which both depend
19:21
<vagrantc>
that's actually probably the correct way to handle it... hard to justify for such a small package.
19:21* vagrantc wonders if there are other things that would make sense in a common package
19:23* vagrantc wants ltsp-localapps to be installable separate from the chroot generating stuff ... but that sould also really be it's own package, technically
19:23
<knipwim>
we could put all distro specific functions in ltsp-libs, whether it's for the server or for the client
19:24
<vagrantc>
the easiest workaround hack is to use update-alternatives
19:24
<knipwim>
in gentoo they can't be installed on the same system
19:24
<vagrantc>
there are times where it's unclear if something would be useful in the server, client, or both ...
19:24
so it might make sense to ship it in both
19:25
and sometimes things get moved between the two
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19:28
<knipwim>
we'll always end up with a common-functions when we don't want redundant code
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20:54
<alkisg>
vagrantc, knipwim, I think that ltsp-common-functions should be separate on those packages, in a weird case I might have ltsp-server 6 and ltsp-client 5 installed, with uncompatible functions inside that file
20:55
So maybe putting the file in separate places in the client and server package makes more sense
20:55
We could even put the client in /usr/share/ltsp-client, but that goes too far
20:55
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i can see that too.
20:55
<alkisg>
So maybe just a file rename on package generation time
20:56
<vagrantc>
sounds reasonable, will need to re-write code to handle it
20:56
<alkisg>
ltsp-common-functions becomes client-common-functions or server-common-functions
21:01
knipwim, cyberorg: any problem with packaging that? ^
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21:01
<alkisg>
(I think stgraber had agreed to that...)
21:06
vagrantc: you didn't need to change debian/changelog for 0.5.1?
21:06
(epoptes)
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21:13
<vagrantc>
alkisg: that's coming
21:13
alkisg: we'll see if my upload sticks
21:13
<alkisg>
ΟΚ
21:14
<vagrantc>
i'll just push the change ...
21:14
it's a pretty silly commit message.
21:15* vagrantc loves that epoptes is essentially the same on ubuntu/debian
21:15
<alkisg>
I'd like ltsp to converge a lot too
21:16
<vagrantc>
indeed ... it's the most divergent at this point
21:17
ok, epoptes made it to debian
21:18
<alkisg>
Afaik debian/ can even contain both sysvinit and upstart (and maybe even systemd) jobs without problems, so I don't think there are any technical reasons not have the same ltsp package in both debian+ubuntu...
21:18
*to
21:19
<vagrantc>
most of the packaging divergence just happened over time, really.
21:20
<knipwim>
alkisg: hmmm, it's not entirely clean
21:21
<alkisg>
knipwim: how so?
21:21
Is it difficult to rename files on package generation time?
21:21
<knipwim>
no, packaging is not a problem
21:22
some functions are defined twice
21:22
<alkisg>
...say more...?
21:22
<knipwim>
because they're used on the client and server
21:22
<vagrantc>
same file, just copied to two different places.
21:22
<alkisg>
But not both files are included at once
21:23
<knipwim>
vagrantc: check
21:23
<alkisg>
(and even it they would, they would be overriden, so the last included version would still work, even though they'd have to be compatible)
21:23
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i'm just adding a conflicts for now, until we can fix it properly.
21:24
<alkisg>
vagrantc: I want to do that for precise though...
21:24
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i hope to fix it for wheezy, but not today :)
21:24
<alkisg>
Sure
21:24
Ah, you're uploading ltsp, ok
21:24
<knipwim>
btw, where does a gentoo ltsp-vendor-functions go?
21:25
in the root?
21:25
or in in /functions/$distro
21:25
<vagrantc>
knipwim: haven't figured that out yet :)
21:26
<alkisg>
In the future, are we going to package all "ltsp-gentoo-functions" etc as "ltsp-vendor-functions", always with the same name?
21:26
<knipwim>
more generic, is there a convention for the locations of all the files upstream
21:26
alkisg: yes
21:26
i packaged all gentoo's init-ltsp.d functions in common already
21:27
<vagrantc>
oh, yeah, i wanted to do that too
21:27
not today...
21:27
<knipwim>
vagrantc: make sure to do ltspfs as well
21:28
alkisg: but along the lines of packaging distro specific functions to generic names
21:28
<alkisg>
We don't really need common/ then, plain init-ltsp.d/ would do while sourcing/executing stuff
21:28
...and we could even drop mentioning ltsp all the time, just init.d
21:28
<knipwim>
it would be nice if the upstream files reflected this more consistently
21:29
<alkisg>
Indeed
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21:29
<alkisg>
So maybe init.d-gentoo
21:29
Or plugins/ltsp-build-client-gentoo
21:30
and the common ones in plain plugins/ltsp-build-client/
21:31
And, common-functions, common-functions-debian...
21:31
<knipwim>
where all command plugins end up in either server/plugins or client/plugins
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21:33
<knipwim>
to separate those from for instance server/configs or client/jetpipe
21:33
<alkisg>
Yup, and common-functions-debian would end up as common-functions-vendor, sourced without need for distro detection at the end of common-functions
21:34
<knipwim>
ltsp-vendor-functions i think, but yes
21:34
<vagrantc>
i do prefer init-ltsp with init-ltsp.d
21:34
the .d dir should be the same as the command that calls it
21:34
(also to avoid confusion with /etc/init.d)
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21:35
<vagrantc>
y'all are talking ltsp 5.4 alrady :P
21:35
<alkisg>
Haha
21:35
LTSP 6 is around the corner... :D
21:35
<knipwim>
:)
21:36
it's not really new functionality, just architecture
21:37
<vagrantc>
with a lot of room for mistakes, or plugins shipped by other folks to break :)
21:37
not that we've ever had a hard and fast rule for version bumps
21:38
<knipwim>
you mean plugins not in the trunk?
21:38
<alkisg>
At some commit we could also drop the extra 0 at the front of ltsp-build-client plugins
21:39
<vagrantc>
knipwim: yes, plugins outside of the trunk (i.e. ltspfs/ldm) or even third party plugins.
21:39
alkisg: yes, i've been resistant to the extra 0 since we invented those plugins.
21:40
<knipwim>
wouldn't we be only changing stuff in the trunk, which could be placed in the current dir structures by packaging?
21:40
<vagrantc>
you have otavio to blame for that.
21:41
knipwim: if suddenly a third-party vendor drops something in debian-foo.d and now it only uses common...
21:42
<knipwim>
we could still look for plugins in the distro dir for a while
21:42
<vagrantc>
at one point, i head tell of just using function-based plugins
21:42
knipwim: not the way init-ltsp.d is currently written
21:42
but for ltsp-build-client, yes.
21:43
though anyone developing for init-ltsp.d is on the bleeding edge :)
21:43
<knipwim>
true, although that part could be rewritten
21:45* alkisg would prefer init-ltsp.d to change from symlinks to a structure similar to ltsp-build-client before precise is shipped, so that no shipped version of ltsp uses symlinks in there
21:45
<vagrantc>
it was exactly the complexity of ltsp-build-client why it was written the way it was.
21:45
<alkisg>
Copy common/ to init-ltsp.d, and overwrite with distro/
21:45
<vagrantc>
although i disagreed with that choice.
21:46
it's a lot more complicated from a packaging point of view, and more annoying to keep track of...
21:46
<alkisg>
So the scripts would be in /usr/share/ltsp/init-ltsp.d/, without subfolders
21:46
Why is it complicated?
21:47
<vagrantc>
the symlink approach is complicated
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21:47
<alkisg>
In debian, you can install the common dir, and then the debian one
21:47
Ah
21:47
Why not drop it before it gets shipped then?
21:47
<vagrantc>
i've got till june before my freeze :)
21:48
<alkisg>
OK, if anyone agrees, I can send a packaging patch to stgraber for the next upload
21:48
<vagrantc>
if you think you can get it into precise, i'm all for it
21:48
<alkisg>
It's not a big change in trunk, just a couple of lines,
21:48
and a couple of lines in the packaging
21:48
<vagrantc>
alkisg: handling installation of symlinks will be needed, though
21:48
<alkisg>
...why?
21:49
<vagrantc>
because a symlink to a directory that doesn't exist should not get installed.
21:49
it should instead install the file that the symlink points to
21:49
not sure how trivial it will be to get the packaging to do that.
21:49
<alkisg>
But there would be no symlinkes neither in trunk nor in the resulting .deb
21:49
Which symlinks are you referring to?
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21:50
<vagrantc>
alkisg: the current symlinks between debian and ubuntu?
21:50
<alkisg>
Ubuntu's debian/install:
21:50
<vagrantc>
5.3.6-1 uploaded to debian
21:50
<alkisg>
init-ltsp.d/common/* init-ltsp.d/
21:50
init-ltsp.d/Debian/* init-ltsp.d/
21:50
init-ltsp.d/Ubuntu/* init-ltsp.d/
21:50
Done
21:51
We'd just need empty files if we wanted to "erase" some of your overrides
21:51
<vagrantc>
got it.
21:51
<alkisg>
And I do like that, because I can better see the diffs
21:51
*delta
21:51
<vagrantc>
can we rely on dh_install to install them in that order?
21:51
<alkisg>
I believe so, but we can check it
21:52
<knipwim>
doesn't debian just follow the symlinks?
21:52
or ubuntu, so that init-ltsp.d/Ubuntu/* init-ltsp.d/ will be enough?
21:52
at least that's the case for gentoo
21:52
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i mean, it might work that way now, but that might be something that i could see changing.
21:52
<alkisg>
knipwim: the point is to not have symlinks in trunk
21:53
<vagrantc>
knipwim: the install rules actually will install the symlinks.
21:54
<alkisg>
vagrantc: well if it ever breaks, we can do it from debian/rules, no?
21:54
<knipwim>
ideally debian and ubuntu would have their own "debian-based" common dir
21:54
<vagrantc>
alkisg: guess so.
21:54
<alkisg>
Python's setup.py does a similar thing, moves files around in debian/tmp before dh_install sees them
21:55
knipwim: I prefer the "CSS" style... debian is the base, so ubuntu/ should contain the diff
21:55
And e.g. mythbuntu would install 4 folders in that order
21:55
common -> debian -> ubuntu -> mythbuntu
21:55
(or linux mint etc etc)
21:55
<vagrantc>
mythbuntu rebuilds the packages?
21:56
<alkisg>
(no idea, just an example :))
21:56
<vagrantc>
linux mint is a better example, then :)
21:57
at any rate, that sounds reasonable.
21:57
<alkisg>
So e.g. I develop a fat clients plugin, put it in ubuntu/, vagrantc tests and finds that it works on debian, moves it in debian/, done
21:57* vagrantc loves the example that actually happened, more or less
21:58
<vagrantc>
alkisg: speaking of fat chroots, i'm not a big fan of the using the presence of xsessions to detect fat chrootness.
21:59
why not just use the FAT_CLIENT environment variable?
21:59
<alkisg>
I think the next precise upload is on 29th, I'll prepare a patch for that, and ask stgraber if he wants to include it, if so I'll change the 2-3 lines of code that reference that dir
21:59
vagrantc: it's for autodetection, the lts.conf variable overrides the autodetection
21:59
<vagrantc>
alkisg: sure.
22:00
<knipwim>
is there another way to detect if a window manager is installed?
22:00
<vagrantc>
that was the goal?
22:00
<alkisg>
In which case you wouldn't like a chroot that contains some DE installed to be booted as fat by default?
22:00
<knipwim>
i guessed that
22:01
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i guess not.
22:01
<knipwim>
you need some clue to determine if a chroot is fat or not
22:01
<vagrantc>
i guess it's fine, it's easy to override...
22:01
<knipwim>
yeah, i meant DE instead of WM
22:01
<alkisg>
The goal is: I install ubuntu in vbox, then ltsp-client on top, then export it as nbd. I.e. ltsp-build-client was never ran, no "marks" like /etc/ltsp_fat_chroot
22:01
<vagrantc>
the old method was more explicit, though.
22:01
<alkisg>
The old method depended on ltsp-build-client
22:01
<vagrantc>
right.
22:02
<alkisg>
Which we agreed can now be optional :)
22:02
<vagrantc>
once everything is patched up.
22:02
<alkisg>
I think that part is pretty much ok... why would one install a DE in the chroot if not to use it?
22:02
And if he really doesn't want to use it, he can just set LTSP_FATCLIENT=False
22:04
You'd prefer it if one that uses vbox for fat clients installation, would have to manually tag it as fat?
22:04
E.g. create /etc/ltsp_fat_chroot himself?
22:04
<knipwim>
btw, i think we can remove common/010-chroot-tagging in the ltsp-build-client plugins as well
22:04
<vagrantc>
or edit lts.conf ?
22:04
<alkisg>
The chroot lts.conf can be overriden by tftp though, but yeah, a file in /etc/ltsp/some-conf would also do
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22:05
<vagrantc>
whatever, it works fine.
22:05
:)
22:05
<alkisg>
I think the DE=fat equation will be more common than the DE!=fat
22:05
So if we do want the tagging part, I'd vote for the opposite
22:05
I.e. LTSP_FATCLIENT=False in $CHROOT/etc/ltsp/some-conf
22:06
(which would be the default, before lts.conf is sourced or something)
22:06
..
22:06
<vagrantc>
i use LTSP for so many non-typical cases, it seems a bit strange to me, but i'm definitely the oddball and there is a simple workaround.
22:06
<alkisg>
knipwim: yes I don't think /etc/ltsp_chroot is needed either
22:09
<vagrantc>
ok, i've uploaded two of my favorite packages today... time to play in the sunshine!
22:10* alkisg => pumpkin, 'night all :)
22:11
<knipwim>
nn
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