IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 10 September 2010   (all times are UTC)

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02:14
<gnunux>
hi
02:26
<alkisg>
Good morning
02:26
!compiz
02:27
<ltspbot>
alkisg: "compiz" :: if compiz is giving you problems, one way to disable it for all users is: sudo gconftool-2 --direct --config-source xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.mandatory --type string --set /desktop/gnome/session/required_components/windowmanager metacity
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08:13
<markit>
hi, I know I can't provide enough info, but I've the strange behaviour that some "clients" (old pc with gpxe installed) sometime work, other times load the OS but stick with the ubuntu logo (with points running). Resetting sometime make them work, sometime not
08:13
any known issue that could give this problem?
08:14
I've a wireshark dump of this situation, but I'm not good enough to understand it
08:14
<alkisg>
I've heard about nbd-proxy causing such problems: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/+bug/589034
08:14
<markit>
or maybe I should enable some "local login" and try to troubleshooting
08:15
alkisg: let me see, thanks
08:15
is for a school, being 100% working is PARAMOUNT
08:15
<alkisg>
You could also remove "quiet splash" from /var/lib/tftpboot//ltsp/i386/pxelinux.cfg/default, so that you don't see the ubuntu logo but the error message(s)
08:16
<markit>
teacher has not the skill to troubleshoot, and if some students (2 for each client, sigh) can't work, they do noise and all the class is better come back to classroom
08:16
alkisg: good tip also, thanks
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08:16
<markit>
btw, I find more fascinating the flow of kernel messages than a splash screen!
08:17
lol, the guy of the bug is running a server lime mine (he has 120, me 100tx)
08:17
btw, a real nightmare!
08:18
yesterday I had the server here at my home for an update
08:18
I was interrupted and went back after 20 minutes or more
08:18
the screen was black (normal), but I had no way to "resume" it!!!
08:18
ssh connectino was fine, clients fine also
08:19
I unplugged and re-plugged the monitor, pressed keys, mouse, etc. no way
08:19
this is also a disaster if happens at school
08:19
<alkisg>
Yeah, and I imagine that at businesses it's even more of a disaster
08:20
E..g in school I can always just teach kids without PCs if they brake or if we have a power outage
08:20
*break
08:20
<markit>
at business if you have 20 pc and one does not boot, the other 19 do their work
08:21
here children start disturbing... so I've been said by one of the teachers
08:21
btw, back to the bug, let me read
08:21
alkisg: btw, are you a teacher?
08:21
<alkisg>
Yup
08:22
<markit>
have you tried italc?
08:22
<elias_a>
italc :(
08:22
<alkisg>
Yes, for 2 years. Then I abandoned it because it hangs all the time, and we developed our own solution.
08:22
<elias_a>
Where's privacy?
08:23
<markit>
alkisg: oh, is available somewhere?
08:24
you are scaring me
08:24
2 teacehrs have said that they use computer like a "personal projector", the teacher does things
08:24
and all kids have to see his desktop in their monitor
08:24
so attention is better than with projector
08:24
<alkisg>
elias_a: teacher: "kids, listen to me". kids: ...fooling around. The teacher repeats that for 10-20 times, depending on his patience. Then a classroom administration tool comes to the rescue: lock all screens => order in classroom again :)
08:24
<markit>
that means that I do need such a solution
08:25
alkisg: lol
08:27
<alkisg>
markit: it's greek only for now. dgross in #edubuntu has translated it to english and he's using it, but we won't be officially internationalizing for the next 2 years due to lack of time. http://wiki.ubuntu-gr.org/sch-scripts/screenshots
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08:27
<markit>
but why not improva italc and create a different solution instead? this way nothing will be 100% working
08:28
wow, looks nice
08:28
argh, greece
08:28
<alkisg>
I mailed the italc ML and ask if we can send patches, but I never got a reply
08:29
...and I wouldn't want to work in qt/C++ anyway, to much difficult to maintain and add new features
08:29
Now we have a lot more features than italc, in a fraction of the time it would take us just to fix the existing italc bugs
08:29
<markit>
mm I've installed kubuntu with ltsp :)
08:30
alkisg: so what is the problem with italc? because he wants to have windows support also?
08:30
btw, I don't know greek!!! if it was english, I could have provided italian translation, but greek is too much for me
08:30
<alkisg>
No, because it's not working
08:30
<markit>
:)
08:31
<alkisg>
It's hanging too frequently, in most labs you can't complete 1 hour of projection without losing half of the clients because of hang ica processes...
08:31
...and in newer labs, it won't even start, it crashes from the start.
08:31
<markit>
I do need a solution, I do need it 100% working, and I do need it in italian or english... how can I do?
08:32
<alkisg>
Pay the guy that has italc a few thousand euros to finish it?
08:32
I don't know of any other way
08:32
dgross has an english translation of sch-scripts, but just for his personal use, we're not interested in internationalization for the next 2 years.
08:33
<markit>
why "for the next 2 years"?
08:34
<alkisg>
Me and the other main developer are doing some stuff (e.g. I'm doing a phd) so we won't be continuing development, we finished greek support for 10.04 but we'll only pick it up again for 12.04 LTS
08:34
The other developers are available, but they don't know enough to add internationalization support...
08:35
<markit>
oh, so you developed it without internationalization support, not that you miss the strings for other languages only :(
08:35
<alkisg>
Yup, due to lack of time for 10.04
08:35
<markit>
yes, not a blame, I'm sad because is not easy to help for me
08:35
are at least comments in english in the source?
08:35
<alkisg>
Yes
08:36
<markit>
and do you think is easy to recompile? I could do a string substitution in the code
08:36
if dgross gives me the english version
08:36
but who is dgross? how can I talk with him?
08:36
<alkisg>
No need for compilation, it's in python/gtk
08:36
he hangs out in #edubuntu
08:36
...and here, some times
08:37
But I believe your best option is italc. Not good enough, and it hangs, but without paying, I don't think you can find any better classroom administration tool atm.
08:38
<markit>
well, paramount is that is Free (as in freedom) software and it work reliable
08:38
your code should be gpl, since included in edubuntu, right?
08:38
<alkisg>
Yup, such a thing doesn't exist :)
08:39
<markit>
and you tell me is very stable, right?
08:39
<alkisg>
My code is gpl 3 but it's not included in edubuntu (yet)
08:39
<markit>
gpl3? thanks a lot, you are so good :)
08:39
<alkisg>
It's stable for our specific setup/needs only.
08:39
Here's the source: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~sch-devs/sch-scripts/trunk/
08:39
<markit>
alkisg: sorry to bore you, but can't figure out myself what it does... my needs are at the moment "only"
08:39
<alkisg>
But as i said, better go for italc.
08:40
<markit>
a) have teacher's display on each children's one
08:40
b) be able to have a look at what childrens are doing, one by one
08:40
<alkisg>
E.g. the teacher in our setups is always sitting on the server
08:40
<markit>
c) lock their pc, as you stated
08:40
yes, he is on the server
08:41
<alkisg>
dgross needed to have the teacher sit on a thin client, and we fixed the source to allow that, but maybe in other cases the setups won't match
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08:41
<markit>
mmm in kde you can't turn off the server if you are on a client, whatever user you are logged in
08:41
<alkisg>
Broadcasting + viewing + locking + sound off + automatic client discovery etc, yes it does all that
08:41
<markit>
and also with few money, using the server provides one more client for children
08:41
<alkisg>
Well, I'm betting it won't work fine in KDE
08:42
We only tested in it gnome
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08:42
<markit>
I installed kde because is what I use, I don't know programs for gnome or it's quirks or whatever
08:42
<alkisg>
Maybe the things you want will work; not sure; but I don't think it's worth it if italc runs in your lab
08:43
<markit>
but I've discovered that ltsp seems "gnome tested only", and this is a big problem
08:43
<alkisg>
Yes, most ltsp people use gnome
08:43
<markit>
alkisg: you are not the only one have told me "oh, italc is bad bad bad", so why hurt myself?
08:44
<alkisg>
markit: in one (and only) lab, italc was running fine for me for 2 years
08:44
<markit>
is so embarassing when you promised a stable system, not like M$ crap, and it does not book properli, mouse hangs and then also italc crashes :(
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08:44
<alkisg>
In other 4-5 labs, it didn't, but maybe you'll be lucky :D
08:44
Who promises that FLOSS is stable?
08:44
<markit>
and I've talked with another peson that provided patches for italc, and got no answer, so bad
08:44
<alkisg>
We should make him pay!
08:45
<markit>
don't understand your mix of "stable" with "pay"
08:45
good designed and tested sw is a matter of programmer's skill
08:45
not "pay"
08:45
<alkisg>
(04:45:59 PM) markit: is so embarassing when you promised a stable system, not like M$ crap, ==> I was joking about that statement
08:45
<markit>
I don't think foss is the "low cost substitution of 'real' programs"
08:45
<alkisg>
Who promised that e.g. an ubuntu system would be stable?
08:46
<markit>
alkisg: oh, I got now, sorry
08:46
<alkisg>
No, I've had more complains about proprietary programs than about floss programs
08:46
<markit>
too tired... this night I was at 3.45 am still here trying to solve the "black screen of death" problem
08:46
and this morning has been another nightmare
08:46
<alkisg>
But I still wouldn't consider a system stable until it's been runnning without problems for months...
08:46
<markit>
sure, wise statement
08:47
<alkisg>
Anyway, /me needs to go back to making windows edu apps run under linux... cya later
08:47
<markit>
install kdeedu package ;)
08:47
alkisg: thanks A LOT for your tips and also your program GPL3
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08:47
<alkisg>
markit: I've converted those so far: http://ts.sch.gr/repo/images/education-menu.png
08:48
...and I need to do about 50 more... we don't use kdeedu much here
08:48
<markit>
wow, long list
08:48
alkisg: the problem I think is that in edu world there are too much fragmentation
08:48
but we will talk about it once I've solved my urgent troubles, lol
08:49
<alkisg>
...I agree, and I we say in #edubuntu, the second bigger problem is that we have more opinions than coding hands :)
08:49
*as we say...
08:49
bbl
08:50
<markit>
lol and I'm contributing to the wrong side
08:50
(increase opinions)
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09:40
<thunsucker>
are these obvious signs that an ltsp server is overloaded: screens randomly go blank, mice and keyboards stop working.........and then magically the screens/mice/keyboard start working again
09:40
they don't usually happen together
09:40
usually it's the screen or the mice/keyboard
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09:48
<moquist>
Hm. These people upgraded edubuntu to (eventually) Ubuntu 10.04, and some stuff broke. So I installed openssh-server in the thin client root and ran ltsp-update-image, and now the TC is stuck at (initramfs), probably (IIRC) not getting root (even though the server says the TC has connected to the nbd_server.
09:49
It's been a long time since I worked with this stuff. :-p
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11:00
<Kyle__>
Moin moin!
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11:30
<thunsucker>
moquist: you still around?
11:31
moquist: you should not run ltsp-update-image in the chroot, you need to run that on the actual ltsp server
11:44
<moquist>
right, I did
11:44
I ended up moving /opt/ltsp over and running ltsp-build-client
11:44
that hadn't been done since the OS upgrade
11:44
now we've got some TCs booting and some not
11:45
and at least we're back to the original problem on the ones that boot: login sessions just die partway through the setup
11:45
gnome shows the background and dies, KDE seemed to get further before it died
11:46
syslog on the server just shows polkitd registering the authentication agent, and then says it's been disconnected
11:46
I don't actually use either Gnome or KDE myself, so I'm just about to try to figure out how to debug that
11:47
I use ion3...so I'm going to give that a whirl just to see what it does. I don't think the 2nd graders are really going to be into ion3, though, so I'll still have to figure out Gnome... ;)
11:56
I'm not sure this one is actually an ltsp issue. I don't really think it is.
11:57
ion3 is working great... ;)
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12:04
<Kyle__>
moquist: Out of curiosity, have you set a default ldm session?
12:04
moquist: When I did that (and did it incorrectly ;) I saw it try and start the session, then die, on each client.
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12:06
<Kyle__>
moquist: Dude, I"m looking at the ion3 screenshots, and that is _definately_ the type of WM I would have used....
12:06
Sweet.
12:06
Teach the 2nd graders....
12:06
<moquist>
heh
12:07
well, it *is* an LTSP-specific problem
12:07
logging into the server directly works fine
12:07
I'm about to google 'sshd channel 11: open failed'
12:07
'cuz that happens, and then it dies
12:08
right, so it would seem one side is trying to connect to something on the other that isn't there
12:09
can I turn on ssh debugging easily...sure. in ssh_config, or something.
12:09
Kyle__: I haven't set a default ldm session, but it's possible they have here.
12:09
sessions work OK for some users with different group memberships
12:09
<thunsucker>
moquist: ion3 looks awesome
12:09
<moquist>
thunsucker: check out notion then, instead
12:10
ion3 is abandoned
12:10
<Kyle__>
Oh...Weird :/
12:10
<moquist>
Kyle__: but I've tried 'Gnome - failsafe' and... it wasn't.
12:10
<Kyle__>
Is your ldm.conf pretty streightforward?
12:10
<moquist>
haven't touched it
12:11
on the client or server?
12:11
it's been waaaay too long... :/
12:11* moquist starts looking
12:11
<Kyle__>
oh. on the server.
12:11
<moquist>
path?
12:11
locate & find /etc have failed me so far
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12:12
<Kyle__>
/var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/<arch>/lts.conf
12:12
<moquist>
yeesh. and google just returns a million hits for ldmconf.exe, which is definitely not what I want
12:13
Kyle__: lts.conf is actually empty right now
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12:13* moquist remembered/found where lts.conf was
12:13
<moquist>
it had stuff, but I ended up deleting it.
12:13
<Kyle__>
O_o
12:13
I didn't actually think it would work empty.
12:13
<moquist>
it was from Edubuntu 6.04 or something, IIRC, upgraded to Hardy, then to Lucid (which is when they called me about this sessions-dying problem)
12:13
oh. it does.
12:14* moquist double checks
12:14
<moquist>
maybe something repopulated it
12:14
nope. just comments.
12:14
wasn't sure if ltsp-build-client would do something with the file or not... but nope.
12:14
<Kyle__>
moquist: physical hardware or VM?
12:14
<vagrantc>
if y'all are looking for an ion3 without a completely insane upstream, try tritium ... started maintaining it in debian this year.
12:14
<moquist>
physical
12:15
<thunsucker>
vagrantc: i will check that out
12:15
<moquist>
vagrantc: I'm planning to switch from ubuntu to debian next time an upgrade comes around, and I'll be reconsidering WMs then...I'll check it out, too.
12:15
<Kyle__>
OK. Because I upgraded from a VM of jaunty to lucid, and it works, but now there's a slight funkiness to it.
12:17
<thunsucker>
moquist: is starting over from a fresh lucid install be out of the question?
12:17
<moquist>
thunsucker: last resort
12:17
this is an ltsp-specific problem, so it seems like it should be solveable without redoing the whole OS
12:19
<thunsucker>
moquist: i agree, a shorter fix might be to uninstall ltsp, clean house a little
12:19
<moquist>
I just cranked up ssh logging, so maybe I'll get more info
12:19
<thunsucker>
moquist: then reinstall ltsp from scratch
12:19
<moquist>
thunsucker: yeah. I might head that direction soon.
12:19
let's see what increased ssh logging tells me...
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12:20
<vbundi>
hey guys... is it safe to install evince inside the chroot so that localapps-firefox can open pdf files after downloading them?
12:20
<moquist>
thunsucker: I've never installed ltsp "from scratch", or if I did, it was once and 4-5 years ago. Not my first avenue. :)
12:21
<thunsucker>
moquist: it's farely straight forward, eventhough I've never touched edubuntu
12:21
<moquist>
vbundi: I sure the heck would, but what do I know? ;)
12:21
thunsucker: well, it's just ubuntu
12:21
so it should be the same process
12:21
<thunsucker>
i agree just adds a few steps for the edubuntu addons
12:22
i use a custom rdesktop screen script on my installs
12:25
<vbundi>
moquist: gee thanks ;)
12:26
<thunsucker>
vbundi: don't see why it would hurt the chroot
12:28
<vbundi>
it adds a bunch of extra dependencies
12:28
gconf and stuff... I don't want to bloat it up
12:32
<abeehc-_>
vbundi: i have evince in my chroot
12:32
and openofice and lord knows what else
12:32
it's a PITA making FF work as localapp properly with gnome
12:32
make sure you have ff-gnome-support or whatever package inthe chroot
12:33
though i'm slowly moving away from localapps
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12:38
<vbundi>
thanks abe
12:38
abeehc-_ yea :)
12:43
<abeehc-_>
anytime
12:45
<alkisg>
vbundi: why don't you try ltsp-remoteapps instead, to launch evince on the server? Won't that be simpler?
12:46
<vbundi>
alkisg: I tried this and did not have any luck last time
12:46
<alkisg>
OK, if you need help troubleshooting just ping :)
12:47
<vbundi>
well maybe I tested wrong.. heres what I did
12:47
alksig: ltsp-localapps xterm and from that I ran ltsp-remoteapps xterm
12:47
which does nothing
12:47
<alkisg>
LTSP_REMOTEAPPS=True in lts.conf is needed
12:48
or similar, let me see...
12:48
<vagrantc>
yeah, remoteapps is disabled by default
12:48
<alkisg>
REMOTE_APPS=True
12:49
<vagrantc>
gah. not documented in ltsp-docs...
12:49
<alkisg>
What does firefox do, when evince isn't installed?
12:49
Does it try to launch evince anyway, or does it say that no app is associated?
12:49
<abeehc-_>
i've found it didn't work well
12:49
but it might be that gnome-support package
12:49
as opposed to evnince I can't remember
12:50
cause yeah the file association to open a file from ff doesn't work
12:50
I can't recall why I moved evince to the chroot after all.. I think it was an attempt to solve the association problem when i found in the end that support-package solved the problem
12:50
<alkisg>
If it tries to run something, then a script can be put there (e.g. in /usr/bin/evince) which runs ltsp-remoteapps evince "$@"
12:52
<vbundi>
alkisg: says app not associated
12:53
<alkisg>
Ah, then it's more difficult, one should put the association too...
12:53
<vbundi>
alkisg: LTSP_REMOTEAPPS=True... of course.
12:53
thanks again guys
12:53
<alkisg>
No that was wrong, the correct is: (08:50:20 PM) alkisg: REMOTE_APPS=True
12:53
<vbundi>
doh, strike that from the record. ;)
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12:58
<AndyGraybeal_>
does the screensaver work in ltsp? it blanks my screen after a minute, but i think that's it. when i select "ants" or something it doesn't work.
12:59
i mean, my scren just blanks
13:00
<johnny>
the "or something" matters
13:00
ants is an opengl screensaver
13:00
that could be why
13:01
<AndyGraybeal_>
well... i mean any screen saver; i hvae a custom screen saver that is a 'logoff' script
13:01
<johnny>
ah ok
13:01
<AndyGraybeal_>
that i would like to work
13:01
<johnny>
works for me :)
13:01
oh.. you probably just have screen blanking before the saver kicks in
13:01
i hope..
13:01
that's all i do.. is screen blanking
13:01
<AndyGraybeal_>
that might be the case.. it seems like it.
13:01
<johnny>
saves power
13:01
<AndyGraybeal_>
how do i turn off the screen blanking ?
13:02
because i want it to log off
13:02
<johnny>
the same place as the screen savers..
13:02
<AndyGraybeal_>
k
13:02
<johnny>
at least in gnome
13:02
<AndyGraybeal_>
yea
13:02
<johnny>
there's a gconf key to set it globally
13:02
i don't know it tho
13:02
<AndyGraybeal_>
yea, i understand - i got the key
13:03
i've set the screen saver to a logoff script.. and it works great when i go into the 'screensavers' dialog box.. it'll automatically log me out. but when the screen goes blank, i wait a few minutes and i'm still logged in. i've set the thing to log me out after a minute of inactivity.. (just for testing purposes) but it never logs me out.
13:04
if that makes any sense
13:04
let me try another non-opengl screensaver
13:05
<muppis>
Comes to mind, does it run that script as user?
13:05
.. as different user.
13:05
<AndyGraybeal_>
muppis: i'm not exactly sure
13:06
and i don't know how to find out honestly... it's in the screensavers thingie
13:06
and it's been a couple of weeks since i had a chance to work on this so i don't remember some of the details.
13:07
<muppis>
Me neither. Never done any screensaver for Gnome.
13:09
<moquist>
ohhhhh. 'Segmentation fault at address 0x2f8' in the Xorg log on the TC
13:14mistik1 has joined #ltsp
13:14pmatulis has quit IRC
13:14
<AndyGraybeal_>
ah.. idle is 5 minutes
13:16
<markit>
alkisg: hi, I've run a /whowas dgross but seems is not known... could you check this nick?
13:17
<alkisg>
markit: gimme 10'...
13:19
<vagrantc>
oooh. i want a screensaver configuration to log out users...
13:19
i've hacked together some ugly scripts ... but i've been thinking about using a screensaver to do it...
13:19
<AndyGraybeal_>
vagrantc: :)
13:20
<markit>
alkisg: btw, I've checked italc svn... on the site the release is 10
13:20
sorry
13:20
1.0.11
13:20
while svn is still at 1.0.3
13:20
<alkisg>
Yes, he's recently been trying to add a few features
13:20
<markit>
I've the bad feeling that you can't collaborate much with this project
13:20
<alkisg>
Since 2 years he was planning for a major rewrite, italc 2.0, but..
13:20
<markit>
and I don't understand why
13:21
<alkisg>
I think he wanted to make money off of it, didn't make any, and abandoned it for the most part
13:21
<markit>
alkisg: isn't a shame that does not happen that some government takes the project, involves a pari of university and brings it to a high level for the whole world behalf?
13:21
<alkisg>
It is indeed
13:22
<markit>
is a point that makes me sad... foss is so important and so neglected
13:22
<alkisg>
It would save themselves a lot of money (e.g. instead of schools buying netsupport) and it would make many other teachers happy too :)
13:22
I'm hoping that they'll see the light in a couple decades :D
13:22
<markit>
exactly
13:23
oh, so fast? lol
13:23
<vagrantc>
they'll get it about 5 years after it's really relevent anymore
13:23
<markit>
vagrantc: I bet on this!
13:23jhutchins_lt has quit IRC
13:24
<markit>
in any case, foss should find a really working "business model" in a way that everyone is keept free, and skilled contributors can gain a linving on it
13:24M4gic5t0rM has quit IRC
13:24
<alkisg>
The government here supported sch-scripts for local use, I hope that they'll continue supporting us so that we internationalize it in 2 years
13:25
<markit>
alkisg: this is a good news
13:25
<muppis>
Here in Finland one town changed back to MS products instead of using LTSP in schools.. They claimed that it's cheaper than buying support from outside.
13:25
<alkisg>
A good classroom administration tool is missing from floss world :-/
13:25
<vagrantc>
muppis: sad to hear
13:25
<markit>
alkisg: I've had a look at some sources of your project, but full of greek strings, impossible for me to understand
13:25
<muppis>
They should had hire one or two supportpersonal rather than buying it outside.
13:25
<alkisg>
markit: yup, no i18n support for now
13:26
<markit>
alkisg: isn't a ubuntu package available? I've found by chance one yesterday
13:26
<alkisg>
We have one in the greek schools ppa, https://launchpad.net/~ts.sch.gr/+archive/ppa/
13:26
<markit>
alkisg: ltsp-controlaula
13:26
<alkisg>
...still greek, sad to say :)
13:26
Ah, I tried that once
13:26
Then I had to format my pc to get rid of it
13:27
It wrote everywhere in a portinst script and didn't bother removing stuff on uninstallation
13:27
<muppis>
vagrantc, yes it was, especially knowning something about MS's princing policy. My friends compared to drugdealing..
13:28
<vagrantc>
muppis: it seems like funding a few local people to support it would be orders of magniture more useful and cheaper than hiring outside support
13:28
<markit>
alkisg: don't know in Greece, but here in italy some schools have migrated to foss, but each school does everything on it's own, reinventing the wheel
13:28
so depressing
13:29
<muppis>
vagrantc, outsourcing is still the magic word around here in city govermenta.
13:29
goverments..
13:30
<markit>
muppis: where are you from? (italy here)
13:30
<muppis>
markit, Finland.
13:30
<markit>
oh, I thought was the FOSS eaven, no?
13:31
common feeling here is that northern countries are very well organized, and spend money and use resources wisely
13:31
so FOSS is the perfect fit
13:31
<muppis>
markit, in companies and communities yes, but not in public sector yet..
13:34
Well.. We still got hope. Why I got involved to LTSP, one of local schools decide to drop need of MS licences to gain savings.
13:35
<markit>
muppis: do you thing that the Freedom is never a good point to convince for migration? Ethical reasons don't count enough?
13:36
because often M$ gives big discounts to school, and in addition to professors, so they are motivated to adopt M$evilware to have for personal usage also
13:36
or school books come with CD with windows-only programs
13:37
<moquist>
bah. why would X segfault on the TC for some users but not others??!?
13:38
<vagrantc>
markit: i think the simple ethics of freedom probably aren't enough ... you need to demonstrate the practical benefits of freedom ...
13:38
<muppis>
markit, I think most of people in city goverments thinks that free software can't get support anywhere, or it had to find by themselfs.
13:38
<alkisg>
!compiz
13:38
<ltspbot>
alkisg: "compiz" :: if compiz is giving you problems, one way to disable it for all users is: sudo gconftool-2 --direct --config-source xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.mandatory --type string --set /desktop/gnome/session/required_components/windowmanager metacity
13:39
<vagrantc>
the translateability of free software and the possibility to do local branding can be compelling
13:39
<alkisg>
moquist: that's a frequent reason ^^^
13:39
<markit>
muppis: also they think is the same as "freeware", or that is the "poors people choice", deceptive software for miserable people
13:40
instead Freedom is a BIG PLUS, you should be willing to pay more for the privilege of being free
13:40
<moquist>
alkisg: ah. thanks.
13:40
<markit>
this problem puzzles me a lot
13:40
<muppis>
As I think, two big customers of our company can gain lot of savings by using LTSP than unupdated XP..
13:40
markit, that might be true.
13:41
<alkisg>
markit: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2010-August/003564.html
13:41
(about dgroos)
13:41
<markit>
ltsp for rdestop to some Win200X server or for run "GNU/Linux" software natively?
13:42
<muppis>
But I think most important reason is that they don't know where to get support when needed if software is obtained free from internet. Or, like I just said, they think it had to search all over the net.
13:43
Natively, as they mostly use web-based systems anyway.
13:43
<markit>
muppis: instead the "aproach" I've found so far here is: is free = worth nothing
13:44
<muppis>
markit, :)
13:44
<markit>
or, I'm using since free, so don't want to spend money on support
13:44
if they save 1000$ from M$ license, they don't invest .. 800 for support or help
13:44
is a crazy world...
13:45
<vagrantc>
cost is often a poor argument for moving to FOSS
13:45
<markit>
I've got the conclusion that the problem is psycological more than technical
13:45
vagrantc: I do belive in it, and I suffer when I get the impression that is the only argument people lissen and understand
13:45
<elias_a>
muppis: Getting support is exactly the reason why some companies are quite successful in their business....
13:45
<alkisg>
Redistribution + automatic configuration is the best arguments for us here...
13:46
+cost, but we have a lot of piracy so that doesn't say much
13:46
<muppis>
I call it Uncle Scrooge -syndrome. Spending milloin to save cents..
13:46
<markit>
alkisg: reading the message url you gave me. Very interesting! btw, is not cited the possibility for the teacher to see children's screen.. is it implemented?
13:46
<elias_a>
Actually the turn key solutions based on LTSP are shown to be cheap.
13:47
<alkisg>
markit: yup, with vinagre/x11vnc ( automatic, just double click on the student)
13:47
<vagrantc>
if the only argument you have is that it costs less, you will loose.
13:47
even if that's true, it should merely come across as a bonus
13:47
<elias_a>
I have to hit the bed now. Cheerio!
13:47
<markit>
vagrantc: totally agree, but was yet not able to be persuading with ethics
13:47
<vagrantc>
an "oh, by the way, this thing that's so much better for all the above reasons, it *happens* to be cheaper"
13:48
<markit>
vagrantc: but to be sincere many foss project are not very good
13:48
like italc
13:48
<vagrantc>
no doubt about that
13:48
<markit>
or maybe alkisg will loose interest in it'sproject and abandon it
13:48
and we will have "2 half solutions"
13:48
<alkisg>
Nope, I have to keep developing it because I use it every day
13:48
<markit>
instad in a just one but incredible good
13:49
<alkisg>
(in contrast with the italc student which stopped caring when he graduated)
13:49
<markit>
alkisg: just an exaple of how foss dev often works, take for example CAD... 24 projects, none "good enough"
13:50
alkisg: do you think will be feasable have a "core" and 2 interface version, one for gtk and one for kde?
13:50
<alkisg>
markit: I agree, maintaining floss projects isn't for everyone... one should have good reasons to commit to that
13:50loather-work has quit IRC
13:50
<moquist>
alkisg: success!
13:50
alkisg: that was perfect. thank you!
13:50
<alkisg>
markit: yes, the networking backend is separated (not cleanly, but well enough)
13:50
<markit>
alkisg: yes, and nog get depressed because many people don't help but just pretend
13:50
<alkisg>
moquist: you're welcome
13:50
<markit>
and if you ask for donations... no money at all arrives!!!
13:50adrianorg has joined #ltsp
13:51
<alkisg>
markit: but, noone will develop a kde frontend if he doesn't use kde :)
13:51
<markit>
alkisg: I do use kde :)
13:51
<alkisg>
(and we discourage it here because of lack of interested developers in greece)
13:51
markit: well, if you know python and qt, jump on :)
13:51
<markit>
I know ... ruby lol
13:52
I'm so often on the "other" side of the main flow...
13:52
sigh
13:52
<muppis>
Never got familiar with KDE and ain't good with GNOME..
13:53
<vagrantc>
if i have to use a "normal" seeming environment, i go with LXDE
13:54* alkisg would like to investigate lxde+debian based fat clients...
13:54
<alkisg>
(lubuntu is quite bloated)
13:54* vagrantc too
13:55
<vagrantc>
although, if i start doing fat clients, people will probably demand GNOME
13:55jhutchins_lt has joined #ltsp
13:55
<markit>
kde is so nice, qt so well designed... gnome is push by "big business boys"
13:56
and is "mono free" so far ;)
13:56
<vagrantc>
i find KDE painful...
13:56Lns has joined #ltsp
13:56
<markit>
vagrantc: how is that? maybe you convince me to change :)
13:56
<alkisg>
Right, but right now, gnome works fine for us, and kde doesn't (not only for ltsp, but for other apps too) :)
13:57
<markit>
alkisg: like?
13:57
<vagrantc>
markit: the user interface has all sorts of moving widgets and buttons and really confuses experienced and new users alike ... unless they *happen* to like all that. :)
13:57
<muppis>
Shame that apps like Yakuake never ported for Gnome.
13:57
<markit>
vagrantc: probably gnome shell will be the same, I suppose (never seen, just guessing)
13:58
<vagrantc>
i'm not really one to look for converts, but i honestly have seem many first-time computer users far more confused by KDE that most other environments
13:58
<markit>
vagrantc: I find the menu bar at the top of the screen the "I've got wrong a good idea" example... Mac has it but works differently, and the right way facilitating mouse movements
13:58
<Lns>
oh noes a gnome vs kde war! *ducks*
13:59
<vagrantc>
markit: i don't like gnome either, mind you :)
13:59
<markit>
Lns: not a war, just confronting experiences and points of view
13:59
<Lns>
;)
14:00
<markit>
Lns: isn't the way every war starts? good intentions and confrontation... lol
14:00
<Lns>
imho kde tries to be like other GUIs too much. Gnome has its own look and feel seperate from the rest, which I appreciate.
14:00
<Kyle__>
Lns: Pfft. I'm using virtualbox's VBoxSDL instead of a WM for most of my users ;)
14:00
Lns: Not even KDE or GNOME.
14:00
<vagrantc>
LXDE outperforms them all.
14:00* vagrantc uses tritium
14:01* Lns loves using fluxbox whenever possible
14:01
<Lns>
the awesome thing is that there *is* a choice.
14:01
<markit>
in any case, also this "desktop fragmentation" is not very good for GNU/Linux spread
14:01
fabolous having choices, but...
14:01
<Lns>
markit: disagree with that
14:02
variety is the spice of life.
14:02andrew_ubuntu has joined #ltsp
14:02
<markit>
Lns: I've tried gnome also (remix on netbook).. you find "gnome version" of kde apps, so there are double efforts
14:02
<vagrantc>
can't have freedom without freedom
14:02
<markit>
and often none a good program
14:02
<Lns>
markit: you can run kde apps in gnome and vise versa (mostly)
14:03
<markit>
Lns: I know and I started that way,, but found I was running all kde apps inside gnome, so installed kde again :)
14:03
<Lns>
I think the spreading of Linux is going great. People who find a use for it are using it, and those who don't like it don't use it as much. It's a perfect scenario.
14:04
Like me - I use LTSP in particular to 'extend' my beefy PC upstairs downstairs so I can watch streaming movies, etc. and have my same environment as upstairs.
14:04
not to mention other environments for my business
14:04
<markit>
Lns: another thing that puzzles me is that if you show someone a Mac, he says "oh, so beautiful". If you show the same on gnome/kde, they say "oh, linux? so difficoult, is just for experts like you"
14:05
<Lns>
It's not for everyone, but when you find a good use case it's really cool.
14:05
<markit>
in any case, I'm in trouble at school now
14:05
thanks to alkisg, I've found the bug that makes client booting so miserable experience
14:05
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/+bug/589034
14:05
<Lns>
markit: right. well that's because they need to use it a little bit and realize it's not that difficult. ;)
14:06
<markit>
at least, I hope is this and the "suggested workaround" will work
14:06
Lns: yes, but if you use a mac you perceive yourself as "superior product owner"
14:06
if you use gnu/linux, is not that way you feel
14:07
btw, also branding is totally crazy with gnu/linux
14:07
every distro has it's one
14:07
<muppis>
Good night for all of you.
14:07
<markit>
while apple has just an.. apple to show on laptops
14:07
night muppis :)
14:08
<alkisg>
good night muppis
14:08
markit: do comment on that bug... :)
14:09
<markit>
alkisg: the fun thing is that nbd-proxy has been introduced or improved recently (I've not read carefully) to improve stability
14:09
so if I patch I will get better boot, but more instability
14:09
<alkisg>
Erm, for ltsp-cluster roaming sessions only
14:09
Nah
14:10
<AndyGraybeal_>
okay.. so i'v set the 'idle_delay' to 1, screesavers is set to 'cosmos-slideshow'.. the 'mode' is set to 'single' which means it's not set to 'blank-only
14:10* alkisg has that disabled for all greek school installations
14:10
<alkisg>
(nbd-proxy)
14:10
<markit>
alkisg: you happen to be a ltsp guru.. how is that?
14:10
<AndyGraybeal_>
' and it still blanks on me (i pressed enter too fast accidentally)
14:10
<alkisg>
markit: I've been using it, so I dived in :)
14:10
<markit>
alkisg: I use a lot of things I've no idea how they work, lol
14:10
also develop that program seems not trivial
14:11
in short, my compliments!
14:11
<alkisg>
I've been a windows programmer for 17 years, that helped a bit
14:11
Thanks!
14:11
(but most thanks go to the core ltsp devs :))
14:12
<markit>
me too, all my legacy programs are in Delphi.. and the only thing I can do in foss is with ruby on rails, I still have to find the time and will to start C++ or python programming for help some project
14:13
<alkisg>
Heh, mostly Delphi here too! And I have to use it for my phd too, to continue a programming language + IDE I've once developed, and now I hate booting windows in a vm to work on ...:-/
14:13
<markit>
reading the rest of the message: sudo apt-get install sch-scripts
14:14
<alkisg>
Ah, better find dgroos if you decide to install that
14:14
He'll help you get it to english
14:14
<markit>
great, I've a vm (vm server based on proxmox project, heard about it?) where to test it
14:15
never tried Lazarus?
14:15
http://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Main_Page
14:15
proxmox is a bare metal installation, so beware before trying it
14:15
<alkisg>
I played with lazarus for 1 day, I wasn't too satisfied...
14:15
<andrew_ubuntu>
Question for you LTSP experts out there... How do you enable desktop effects for Nvidia cards? I've installed the proprietary driver, but I can't change my monitor's resolution nor can I enable "visual effects". Had to put XSERVER=nvidia in the lts.conf to get my native resolution of 1280x1024, otherwise it would default to 800x600!
14:16
<alkisg>
I've been using vbox here, works fine for all my needs
14:16
<markit>
when I read "proprietary drivers" I become sad :(
14:16
<johnny>
you must install the proprietary drivers locally
14:16
and on the server
14:16
probably there are instructions tho
14:16
<markit>
alkisg: for desktop maybe is better vbox, but you could use for a ltsp server on one vm machine, and a web server in another vm, etc.
14:16
fast to setup (15 min for installation, web based management)
14:17
<alkisg>
markit: vbox has a headless mode too, I didn't find anything I want to do that vbox doesn't do it, so I stack with it
14:17
stuck, maybe
14:17
<markit>
who knows? :)
14:18
ok, was just a suggestion, openvz container are really resource savings, while kvm provides full virtualization. Clustering and live migration complete the picture
14:18* alkisg wants to test lxc (linux containers) in the future
14:18
<markit>
so I suggest you just to have a look at the feature, maybe one day you will find that you need such a solution
14:19
<alkisg>
ty
14:19
<andrew_ubuntu>
Ok. Thanks Johnny. I didn't install the drivers on the server, so I'll try that now. I've been using clients w/ Intel VCs, and they work out of the box... but they "claim" they get a white screen when the login, so I thought I'd try Nvidia VCs....
14:19
<markit>
mmm i use dnsmasq too, I love it
14:20* alkisg too, simon implemented proxydhcp for us and saved us :)
14:20
<alkisg>
(==boot ltsp clients with a cheap router as the dhcp server)
14:21
<markit>
I'm reading about "profiles",, what are them?
14:21
is acl enabled and used with edubuntu?
14:21
<alkisg>
Where did you read about profiles? In what context?
14:21
<markit>
I've more and more the feeling that use with kubuntu and not edubuntu is nearly impossible for me
14:22
alkisg: a "following message" https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2010-August/003565.html
14:22
but maybe was not the same thread, lol
14:22
I'm too tired probably
14:23
<alkisg>
There's a menu editor in edubuntu (to show different menus on each education level) and there's sabayon for locking down settings, both use profiles
14:23
<AndyGraybeal_>
is there a reason my screensaver isn't working? (like for instance.. i don't have it set to the GL ones anymore, i have it set to "picture slideshow" -- my screen simply goes blank though -- here is my mandatory gconf settings for reference: http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/jpJAetW3 ; my default gconf keys are empty.
14:26
i'm wondering if i've done something wrong somewhere along the line.
14:29
maybe i'll take out all my mandatory keys regarding the screensaver and see what happens.
14:37shogunx has quit IRC
14:43
<AndyGraybeal_>
other people are able to run screensavers right (like the "Pictures folder")?
14:44
<abeehc-_>
i've seen them work fine before
14:44
I'd take a look at the client video capabilities
14:44
as far as the gl ones go
14:44
<andrew_ubuntu>
Johnny: After installing nvidia-glx-185 on the server (same package I installed in the client chroot) I still can't get compiz (desktop effects) working for nvidia clients. Any other ideas?
14:46
and I can't find any documentation on this either... was following the https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/AtomIon page since this is an Intel Atom w/ Nvidia Ion graphics, but it doesn't mention anything about compiz nor installing the drives on the server-side too... so, I'm at a loss. Not going to spend too much more time on this. I'll just move on to ATI next ;).
14:46
<AndyGraybeal_>
abeehc-_: well, not even trying to run 'gl' screensavers.. just the 'pictures' folder.. or anything simple -- my main goal is to run a 'logoff' script. it appears that it won't even run a my 'pictures folder' scrensaver. it just blanks the screen
14:47
<abeehc-_>
i trust you have some pictures in your pictures folder
14:48
<johnny>
it's really recommended that nvidia sucks :)
14:48
<andrew_ubuntu>
LOL
14:48
<johnny>
sorry.. i'm not going to try to debug their proprietary drivers
14:48
<AndyGraybeal_>
abeehc-_: lots :)
14:48
<johnny>
i bought intel hardware on purpose
14:49
<andrew_ubuntu>
ya, I don't blame ya
14:49
<johnny>
of course.. not the terrible gma 500 tho :(
14:49
nvidia for me.. is only for games
14:49
<AndyGraybeal_>
abeehc-_: the 'preview' works great. in fact the 'preview' of my logout script works great too... logs me right off.
14:49
<johnny>
if i was a big gamer.. which i'm not :)
14:49
hah AndyGraybeal_
14:49
<andrew_ubuntu>
I use Nvidia on my XP box only because I game.... and I like the physx effects.
14:50
<abeehc-_>
that's interesting i'm out of ideas sorry
14:50
<AndyGraybeal_>
but i can't get it to run as a screensaver, nor do my screensavers actually run, just blank screen. i even deletd all my mandatory gconf keys.. just in case.
14:50
er... i mean not all just the ones related to 'gnome-screensaver'
14:50
abeehc-_: thank you
14:50
<abeehc-_>
yeah i can't even choose a different one from the blank screen in gnome-screensaver-preferences
14:52
<andrew_ubuntu>
johnny: thanks for your help though... much appreciated. I'm happy with the Intel clients I have, except for the white screen... it goes away after the scroll their mouse, so I dunno what causes that. I assumed it was video card, but it *generally* only happens when the login the first time in the morning. They are 4 hours away, so I can't see w/ my own eyes what they are talking about. Other than that, the LOVE LTSP!!!
14:52
"the LOVE LTSP!!!"... ugh, I hate typos. ;)
14:53
<AndyGraybeal_>
abeehc-_: thanks for helping
15:01
i'm thinking i should email the list and see what happens.
15:01
<alkisg>
AndyGraybeal_: is gnome-screensaver running for the user on the client?
15:01
ps -ef | grep gnome-screensaver
15:01
(on the server)
15:02
<AndyGraybeal_>
alkisg: no it looks like isn't running as the user.
15:02
<alkisg>
Try running it manually and check if it works
15:02
<AndyGraybeal_>
1001, 1020, and 'andy' (my username is andy.graybeal)
15:02
alkisg: okay
15:03
<alkisg>
(never looked into screensavers, just guessing here...)
15:03
also, if you click "preview" on the screensavers dialog, it works, right?
15:04
<AndyGraybeal_>
alkisg: yes, it is running as 'andy.graybeal' but it says '1001' which is my number in the /etc/passwd file.
15:04
<alkisg>
Ah, ok then
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15:04
<AndyGraybeal_>
i ran gnome-screensaver and it said that it's already running for this session
15:05
it says andy.graybeal:x:1001:1007
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15:10
<AndyGraybeal_>
okay, get this.. i just ran 'gnome-screensaver-command --activate' and it blanked my screen! (it didn't run my 'Pictures Folder')
15:12
<vbundi>
hey guys, I just changed the ip on my machine, ran ltsp-update-sshkeys and my terminals don't get a response from server
15:12
what did I miss here...?
15:12
<alkisg>
vbundi: ltsp-update-image
15:13
<vbundi>
oh I didn't think I had to do that after server ip change
15:13
alkisg: thx
15:13
<alkisg>
np
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15:14
<sidartha>
anyone have success installing chromium as a local-app?
15:15
<AndyGraybeal_>
is there a reason why when i type the wrong password in, it says 'server timeout' instead of 'wrong password'?
15:16
it puts my folks off and they come to me and say the server is down :) it's a little funny when they do, but a little scary too.
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15:18
<vbundi>
alkisg: still doesn't work... maybe I missed something else
15:19
alkisg: like something in a conf file, does the order matter of the ltsp-update* commands?
15:22
alkisg: nm lol
15:23
<alkisg>
:)
15:23
AndyGraybeal_: sad story, we'll need pam-ssh to have good error messages there.
15:23
sidartha: afaik chrome doesn't run over sshfs because of locking, it needs an nfs home
15:24
(NFS_HOME=/home in lts.conf, with the appropriate export on the server)
15:26
<sidartha>
thanks
15:32
<vbundi>
alkisg: I thought I had fixed it... doesn't appear to be working
15:35
alkisg: ok nm I fixed it... I had changed password authentication to no in sshd_config
15:35
is there any way I can make it so that people can't ssh into my server without an sshkey?
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15:37
<markit>
vbundi: in sshd_conf should be something like "allowpasswordlogin" or something like that, I guess
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15:39
<vbundi>
markit: yep that's how I figured, but after doing that, users can't log in to the LTSP server
15:39
<markit>
oh, sure
15:40
the only thing that comes in mind to me would be 2 different instances of sshd, one bind to a different port, but I think is not an easy setup for some obscure consequences
15:41
<vagrantc>
vbundi: you want some users to be able to log in with a password, but not others?
15:47
<markit>
vagrantc: probably he wants ltsp users work, and remote connection be only with the key (for remote admin purpouses)
15:48
<alkisg>
I think sshd_config supports different configurations based on ip rangs
15:52
<vbundi>
vagrantc: I want to be able to ssh into this server from the internet, but ONLY with a Pre-shared key, not password auth
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16:09
<Sorinan>
The jetpipe on client keeps crashing whenever I try to print something, sometimes restarting by itself, sometimes not. Does anyone knows why?
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16:25
<vbundi>
alkisg: I will look into that.
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18:22
<Kyle__>
Can anyone explain why a gnome session would compleetly change and look like hell after a minor _MINOR_ update?
18:24
<johnny>
because you broke something?
18:24
<Kyle__>
Amazing.
18:24
<johnny>
revert it ? prove it was the update
18:24
<Kyle__>
Anything deeper.
18:24
<johnny>
prove it
18:24
<Kyle__>
johnny: Other than everything working fine across dozens of machines until I updated the image? No, can't really proove it.
18:24
<johnny>
the image?
18:24
fat clients?
18:25
<Kyle__>
johnny: Yes, I updatd the fat-client image.
18:25
<johnny>
what was the update
18:25
<Kyle__>
apt-get update
18:25
<johnny>
what was updated?
18:25
c'mon dude
18:25
try being helfpul
18:25* Kyle__ nods
18:25
<johnny>
really tho.. my suggestion is that you revert your update and narrow down what package it was
18:26
<Kyle__>
lemmie see what shows up logged. It's been awhile since I've had to track down updates in ubuntu.
18:26
Humm.
18:27
Actually scratch that. I ran the update on the server, not the client. I've got it reversed.
18:27
And asside from firefox branding and assorted packages, looks like pulse got updated.
18:28
And python-lazr...whatevfer the hell that is.
18:29
I'm wondering if the group names changed.
18:32
Any idea why pulseaudio coudln't start? This is just too damned weird :/
18:34* Kyle__ grumbles. 6:30 is not the time to be doing this
18:35
<markit>
is partially OT here... I've just installed italc, but auto-discover feature find nothing (I've a client connected instead). Wondering if is searching on the wrong interface (I've eth0 -> ltsp clients, and eth1 -> school lan). Any idea about how to configure?
18:36
Kyle__: 6.30 am or pm?
18:36
<Kyle__>
PM.
18:36
<markit>
not that bad then :)
18:36
<Kyle__>
I spent all day working on stuff, bouncing machines, making sure things moved properly.
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18:36
<Kyle__>
I didn't actually log into the gui on any of them though... otherwise I would have seen this earlier.
18:36
GRRR
18:36
<markit>
oh, I've a long history of "depressing" experiences too
18:37
<Kyle__>
markit: And I wanted today to be that one day this week I didn't work late ;) ahh well.
18:37
What are you working onat this hour?
18:38
<markit>
Kyle__: at this precise moment, I've just installed italc and trying to figure out how to make work
18:39
had bad day with ltsp clients hang just before ldm login
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18:39
<markit>
I've fortunatly found help here pointing me to a bug with a suggested patch, I will see tomorrow if works (applied in ssh)
18:39
italc is in test here in a VM instead
18:39
<Kyle__>
Ahh.
18:40
Are you using NFS homes?
18:49
its' audio. The clients can't use audio for some reason, and it's hanging up gnome something fierce, and also effectively killing VMs from starting normally.
18:49
Hum. So how to get the client audio working again?
18:53
<markit>
Kyle__: no nfs homes... I've no idea about what they are. Also I'm using kubuntu
18:54
so can't help with gnome audio, sorry
18:54
<Kyle__>
markit: If you use fat clients, it's a nice way to handle files. IMO
18:55
<markit>
Kyle__: oh I use thin clients (well, old fashioned pc with gpxe on hd)
18:55
<Kyle__>
AHh.
18:56
<markit>
I've to become a guru of ACL though... at the moment I've no idea about how implement things and share some area, and let teacher R/W on studen's homes
18:56
Kyle__: do you use italc?
18:56
<Kyle__>
No. Don't even konw what that is.
18:56
What is it?
18:57
<markit>
http://italc.sourceforge.net/home.php
18:57
I've heard is buggy, hope new version is much better, but ubuntu has not the last one available
18:57
is a feature I've been required to have in my scholl's setup
18:57
<Kyle__>
Ahh. I've seen it mentioned before. Neat stuff.
18:57
Really?
18:58
<markit>
really what of the above sentences? :)
18:58
<Kyle__>
It's required. That's the surprising part.
18:58
<markit>
for me too :) seems many teachers use the pc room as a sort of "show to all" only way
18:59
instead of a projector, they say that student's attention is much longer and better if they have to stare at theirs monitor
18:59
instead of the wall with the projected image
18:59
or the blackboard
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19:00
<markit>
are you working for a school installation too?
19:01
<Kyle__>
Hu. I can see that would be usefull here too.
19:01
University.
19:02
Some professors Want the students to not use the computer at all, and have even asked if I could disable them for their lecture period. Others want the students to be able to browse facebook/etc durring class, so they stay happy.
19:02
Crazy.
19:02
Still otherws want a web-filtering-proxy so they can look up info on questions, but not certain places where they could get a streight answer.
19:02
Gotta love it.
19:03
<markit>
:)
19:04
<Kyle__>
Wow. Yea, audio dying really killed my setup... that was it. VirtualBox just hangs, and doesn't start if there's no audio and it expects it.
19:05
And my default session is a stateless WindowsXP VM.
19:05
Well, mostly stateless.
19:05
<johnny>
well now that everybody can have phones with their own internet
19:05
nots ure what the filtering would do
19:05
kinda lost cause on that front
19:05
<Kyle__>
Yea I know.
19:05
<johnny>
pulseaudio is not a minor update :)
19:06* Kyle__ hates pulseaudio.
19:06
<johnny>
especially if they changed any settings
19:06
i love it
19:06
use it all the time
19:06
route my usb speakers
19:06
route my bluetooth audio
19:06
route to my other box
19:06
works a treat
19:06
<Kyle__>
It's evil, it's a waste of resources, and mostly duplicates what the alsa drivers already do ;)
19:06
<johnny>
no.. .. no no
19:06
<Kyle__>
But I'm not biased against it at all...Nope.
19:06
<johnny>
you're all wrong about everything you just said
19:06
<Kyle__>
;)
19:06
<johnny>
especially the alsa part
19:06
they want to drop dmix
19:06
from the kernel drivers
19:07
in that case you woudn't be able to play 2 streams at once
19:07
without a sound server
19:07
<Kyle__>
johnny: one of the whole reasons for pulse in the first place was to have multiple streams on cards with poor drivers.
19:07
<johnny>
no.. it's to have multiple streams total
19:07
<Kyle__>
With the better oss drivers, and _all_ the alsa drivers, yo ucan do that anyway.
19:07
<johnny>
the alsa devs wanted dmix gone
19:07
no.. they wanted dmix gone :)
19:07
<Kyle__>
Meh.
19:07
<johnny>
because it's a hack
19:07
<Kyle__>
I honestly need to lookup dmix then, because I'm not familiar with it.
19:08
<johnny>
dmix is how alsa with multiple sounds works!
19:08
or was
19:08
this was the time when the only options were esd and arts
19:08
<Kyle__>
Seriuosly? I thought that was at a driver leve in there.
19:08
<johnny>
so they hacked up dmix
19:08
<Kyle__>
Ah.
19:08
<johnny>
no.. it's not
19:08
it's a plugin
19:08
<Kyle__>
I hated those two also. Furiously.
19:08
<johnny>
as well you should
19:08
i agree with that for sure
19:08
that's why we all started using dmix
19:08
<Kyle__>
johnny: I always had multiple streams with my sound, and nothing running for it outside of kernelspace.
19:09
<johnny>
but now pulse is even on moible devices
19:09
Kyle__, so?
19:09
i wonder if this is new
19:09
i haven't used plain alsa in uhmm..
19:09* johnny tries to remember
19:09
<johnny>
4 years maybe..
19:09
<Kyle__>
johnny: So unless dmix was running in-kernel as part of the alsa driver, that's not how it used to work.
19:09
<johnny>
switched to pulse as soon as they got the kinks out
19:09
wel tha'ts how it worked up until 4 years ago
19:09
dmix was required
19:09* Kyle__ would argue that hasn't happened yet ;)
19:10
<johnny>
blame the drivers :)
19:10
<Kyle__>
johnny: I assure you dmix was not required. But yes, we can blame the drivers :)
19:11
Heh. These machines are going to look like they're stuck and not booting when they pull over new VM images now.
19:11* Kyle__ shrugs
19:11
<Kyle__>
Rsync is my friend.
19:11
Guess I'll only put new ones out at night.
19:18* Kyle__ slinks off into the night
19:23
<johnny>
Kyle__, it was in there by default in most distros..
19:23
<Kyle__>
johnny: REally?
19:23
I wish it wasn't in the one I"m using
19:23* Kyle__ can't leave it. It's not working
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20:40
<Kyle__>
Ow Ow ow ow ow.
20:42
OK, for anyone searching the logs of this channel for help, the pulse-audio not starting, incredibly long login times, etc I was experiencing? It was due to ubuntu's rpc.statd not starting, or staying running, on it's own. Once that's going, All the audio issues with ubuntu clients goes away.
20:42
Again, don't use ubuntu as an NFS server, it caused all the problems.
20:43
The short, horrible fix? screen -d -m rpc.statd -Fd
20:43
I missed my daughter's bedtime because I was fixing this s**t. I hate ubuntu.
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22:17
<johnny>
Kyle__, ah yes, alkisg mentioned issues related to statd already
22:17
i haven't experienced that myself
22:17
i hope a fix is in the works
22:17
oh yes.. i havent experienced it..because i'm still using sshfs :)
22:17
forgt that.. i meant to switch to nfs, but haven't
22:18
Kyle__, i was hoping for null cipher support in sshfs
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