IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)
Channel log from 10 September 2010 (all times are UTC)
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| 02:14 | <gnunux> hi
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| 02:26 | <alkisg> Good morning
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| 02:26 | !compiz
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| 02:27 | <ltspbot> alkisg: "compiz" :: if compiz is giving you problems, one way to disable it for all users is: sudo gconftool-2 --direct --config-source xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.mandatory --type string --set /desktop/gnome/session/required_components/windowmanager metacity
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| 08:13 | <markit> hi, I know I can't provide enough info, but I've the strange behaviour that some "clients" (old pc with gpxe installed) sometime work, other times load the OS but stick with the ubuntu logo (with points running). Resetting sometime make them work, sometime not
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| 08:13 | any known issue that could give this problem?
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| 08:14 | I've a wireshark dump of this situation, but I'm not good enough to understand it
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| 08:14 | <alkisg> I've heard about nbd-proxy causing such problems: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/+bug/589034
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| 08:14 | <markit> or maybe I should enable some "local login" and try to troubleshooting
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| 08:15 | alkisg: let me see, thanks
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| 08:15 | is for a school, being 100% working is PARAMOUNT
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| 08:15 | <alkisg> You could also remove "quiet splash" from /var/lib/tftpboot//ltsp/i386/pxelinux.cfg/default, so that you don't see the ubuntu logo but the error message(s)
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| 08:16 | <markit> teacher has not the skill to troubleshoot, and if some students (2 for each client, sigh) can't work, they do noise and all the class is better come back to classroom
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| 08:16 | alkisg: good tip also, thanks
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| 08:16 | <markit> btw, I find more fascinating the flow of kernel messages than a splash screen!
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| 08:17 | lol, the guy of the bug is running a server lime mine (he has 120, me 100tx)
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| 08:17 | btw, a real nightmare!
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| 08:18 | yesterday I had the server here at my home for an update
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| 08:18 | I was interrupted and went back after 20 minutes or more
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| 08:18 | the screen was black (normal), but I had no way to "resume" it!!!
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| 08:18 | ssh connectino was fine, clients fine also
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| 08:19 | I unplugged and re-plugged the monitor, pressed keys, mouse, etc. no way
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| 08:19 | this is also a disaster if happens at school
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| 08:19 | <alkisg> Yeah, and I imagine that at businesses it's even more of a disaster
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| 08:20 | E..g in school I can always just teach kids without PCs if they brake or if we have a power outage
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| 08:20 | *break
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| 08:20 | <markit> at business if you have 20 pc and one does not boot, the other 19 do their work
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| 08:21 | here children start disturbing... so I've been said by one of the teachers
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| 08:21 | btw, back to the bug, let me read
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| 08:21 | alkisg: btw, are you a teacher?
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| 08:21 | <alkisg> Yup
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| 08:22 | <markit> have you tried italc?
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| 08:22 | <elias_a> italc :(
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| 08:22 | <alkisg> Yes, for 2 years. Then I abandoned it because it hangs all the time, and we developed our own solution.
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| 08:22 | <elias_a> Where's privacy?
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| 08:23 | <markit> alkisg: oh, is available somewhere?
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| 08:24 | you are scaring me
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| 08:24 | 2 teacehrs have said that they use computer like a "personal projector", the teacher does things
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| 08:24 | and all kids have to see his desktop in their monitor
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| 08:24 | so attention is better than with projector
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| 08:24 | <alkisg> elias_a: teacher: "kids, listen to me". kids: ...fooling around. The teacher repeats that for 10-20 times, depending on his patience. Then a classroom administration tool comes to the rescue: lock all screens => order in classroom again :)
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| 08:24 | <markit> that means that I do need such a solution
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| 08:25 | alkisg: lol
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| 08:27 | <alkisg> markit: it's greek only for now. dgross in #edubuntu has translated it to english and he's using it, but we won't be officially internationalizing for the next 2 years due to lack of time. http://wiki.ubuntu-gr.org/sch-scripts/screenshots
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| 08:27 | <markit> but why not improva italc and create a different solution instead? this way nothing will be 100% working
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| 08:28 | wow, looks nice
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| 08:28 | argh, greece
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| 08:28 | <alkisg> I mailed the italc ML and ask if we can send patches, but I never got a reply
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| 08:29 | ...and I wouldn't want to work in qt/C++ anyway, to much difficult to maintain and add new features
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| 08:29 | Now we have a lot more features than italc, in a fraction of the time it would take us just to fix the existing italc bugs
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| 08:29 | <markit> mm I've installed kubuntu with ltsp :)
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| 08:30 | alkisg: so what is the problem with italc? because he wants to have windows support also?
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| 08:30 | btw, I don't know greek!!! if it was english, I could have provided italian translation, but greek is too much for me
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| 08:30 | <alkisg> No, because it's not working
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| 08:30 | <markit> :)
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| 08:31 | <alkisg> It's hanging too frequently, in most labs you can't complete 1 hour of projection without losing half of the clients because of hang ica processes...
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| 08:31 | ...and in newer labs, it won't even start, it crashes from the start.
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| 08:31 | <markit> I do need a solution, I do need it 100% working, and I do need it in italian or english... how can I do?
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| 08:32 | <alkisg> Pay the guy that has italc a few thousand euros to finish it?
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| 08:32 | I don't know of any other way
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| 08:32 | dgross has an english translation of sch-scripts, but just for his personal use, we're not interested in internationalization for the next 2 years.
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| 08:33 | <markit> why "for the next 2 years"?
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| 08:34 | <alkisg> Me and the other main developer are doing some stuff (e.g. I'm doing a phd) so we won't be continuing development, we finished greek support for 10.04 but we'll only pick it up again for 12.04 LTS
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| 08:34 | The other developers are available, but they don't know enough to add internationalization support...
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| 08:35 | <markit> oh, so you developed it without internationalization support, not that you miss the strings for other languages only :(
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| 08:35 | <alkisg> Yup, due to lack of time for 10.04
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| 08:35 | <markit> yes, not a blame, I'm sad because is not easy to help for me
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| 08:35 | are at least comments in english in the source?
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| 08:35 | <alkisg> Yes
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| 08:36 | <markit> and do you think is easy to recompile? I could do a string substitution in the code
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| 08:36 | if dgross gives me the english version
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| 08:36 | but who is dgross? how can I talk with him?
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| 08:36 | <alkisg> No need for compilation, it's in python/gtk
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| 08:36 | he hangs out in #edubuntu
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| 08:36 | ...and here, some times
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| 08:37 | But I believe your best option is italc. Not good enough, and it hangs, but without paying, I don't think you can find any better classroom administration tool atm.
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| 08:38 | <markit> well, paramount is that is Free (as in freedom) software and it work reliable
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| 08:38 | your code should be gpl, since included in edubuntu, right?
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| 08:38 | <alkisg> Yup, such a thing doesn't exist :)
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| 08:39 | <markit> and you tell me is very stable, right?
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| 08:39 | <alkisg> My code is gpl 3 but it's not included in edubuntu (yet)
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| 08:39 | <markit> gpl3? thanks a lot, you are so good :)
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| 08:39 | <alkisg> It's stable for our specific setup/needs only.
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| 08:39 | Here's the source: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~sch-devs/sch-scripts/trunk/
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| 08:39 | <markit> alkisg: sorry to bore you, but can't figure out myself what it does... my needs are at the moment "only"
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| 08:39 | <alkisg> But as i said, better go for italc.
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| 08:40 | <markit> a) have teacher's display on each children's one
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| 08:40 | b) be able to have a look at what childrens are doing, one by one
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| 08:40 | <alkisg> E.g. the teacher in our setups is always sitting on the server
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| 08:40 | <markit> c) lock their pc, as you stated
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| 08:40 | yes, he is on the server
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| 08:41 | <alkisg> dgross needed to have the teacher sit on a thin client, and we fixed the source to allow that, but maybe in other cases the setups won't match
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| 08:41 | <markit> mmm in kde you can't turn off the server if you are on a client, whatever user you are logged in
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| 08:41 | <alkisg> Broadcasting + viewing + locking + sound off + automatic client discovery etc, yes it does all that
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| 08:41 | <markit> and also with few money, using the server provides one more client for children
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| 08:41 | <alkisg> Well, I'm betting it won't work fine in KDE
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| 08:42 | We only tested in it gnome
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| 08:42 | <markit> I installed kde because is what I use, I don't know programs for gnome or it's quirks or whatever
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| 08:42 | <alkisg> Maybe the things you want will work; not sure; but I don't think it's worth it if italc runs in your lab
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| 08:43 | <markit> but I've discovered that ltsp seems "gnome tested only", and this is a big problem
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| 08:43 | <alkisg> Yes, most ltsp people use gnome
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| 08:43 | <markit> alkisg: you are not the only one have told me "oh, italc is bad bad bad", so why hurt myself?
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| 08:44 | <alkisg> markit: in one (and only) lab, italc was running fine for me for 2 years
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| 08:44 | <markit> is so embarassing when you promised a stable system, not like M$ crap, and it does not book properli, mouse hangs and then also italc crashes :(
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| 08:44 | <alkisg> In other 4-5 labs, it didn't, but maybe you'll be lucky :D
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| 08:44 | Who promises that FLOSS is stable?
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| 08:44 | <markit> and I've talked with another peson that provided patches for italc, and got no answer, so bad
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| 08:44 | <alkisg> We should make him pay!
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| 08:45 | <markit> don't understand your mix of "stable" with "pay"
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| 08:45 | good designed and tested sw is a matter of programmer's skill
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| 08:45 | not "pay"
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| 08:45 | <alkisg> (04:45:59 PM) markit: is so embarassing when you promised a stable system, not like M$ crap, ==> I was joking about that statement
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| 08:45 | <markit> I don't think foss is the "low cost substitution of 'real' programs"
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| 08:45 | <alkisg> Who promised that e.g. an ubuntu system would be stable?
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| 08:46 | <markit> alkisg: oh, I got now, sorry
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| 08:46 | <alkisg> No, I've had more complains about proprietary programs than about floss programs
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| 08:46 | <markit> too tired... this night I was at 3.45 am still here trying to solve the "black screen of death" problem
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| 08:46 | and this morning has been another nightmare
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| 08:46 | <alkisg> But I still wouldn't consider a system stable until it's been runnning without problems for months...
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| 08:46 | <markit> sure, wise statement
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| 08:47 | <alkisg> Anyway, /me needs to go back to making windows edu apps run under linux... cya later
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| 08:47 | <markit> install kdeedu package ;)
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| 08:47 | alkisg: thanks A LOT for your tips and also your program GPL3
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| 08:47 | <alkisg> markit: I've converted those so far: http://ts.sch.gr/repo/images/education-menu.png
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| 08:48 | ...and I need to do about 50 more... we don't use kdeedu much here
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| 08:48 | <markit> wow, long list
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| 08:48 | alkisg: the problem I think is that in edu world there are too much fragmentation
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| 08:48 | but we will talk about it once I've solved my urgent troubles, lol
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| 08:49 | <alkisg> ...I agree, and I we say in #edubuntu, the second bigger problem is that we have more opinions than coding hands :)
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| 08:49 | *as we say...
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| 08:49 | bbl
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| 08:50 | <markit> lol and I'm contributing to the wrong side
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| 08:50 | (increase opinions)
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| 09:40 | <thunsucker> are these obvious signs that an ltsp server is overloaded: screens randomly go blank, mice and keyboards stop working.........and then magically the screens/mice/keyboard start working again
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| 09:40 | they don't usually happen together
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| 09:40 | usually it's the screen or the mice/keyboard
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| 09:48 | <moquist> Hm. These people upgraded edubuntu to (eventually) Ubuntu 10.04, and some stuff broke. So I installed openssh-server in the thin client root and ran ltsp-update-image, and now the TC is stuck at (initramfs), probably (IIRC) not getting root (even though the server says the TC has connected to the nbd_server.
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| 09:49 | It's been a long time since I worked with this stuff. :-p
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| 11:00 | <Kyle__> Moin moin!
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| 11:30 | <thunsucker> moquist: you still around?
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| 11:31 | moquist: you should not run ltsp-update-image in the chroot, you need to run that on the actual ltsp server
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| 11:44 | <moquist> right, I did
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| 11:44 | I ended up moving /opt/ltsp over and running ltsp-build-client
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| 11:44 | that hadn't been done since the OS upgrade
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| 11:44 | now we've got some TCs booting and some not
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| 11:45 | and at least we're back to the original problem on the ones that boot: login sessions just die partway through the setup
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| 11:45 | gnome shows the background and dies, KDE seemed to get further before it died
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| 11:46 | syslog on the server just shows polkitd registering the authentication agent, and then says it's been disconnected
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| 11:46 | I don't actually use either Gnome or KDE myself, so I'm just about to try to figure out how to debug that
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| 11:47 | I use ion3...so I'm going to give that a whirl just to see what it does. I don't think the 2nd graders are really going to be into ion3, though, so I'll still have to figure out Gnome... ;)
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| 11:56 | I'm not sure this one is actually an ltsp issue. I don't really think it is.
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| 11:57 | ion3 is working great... ;)
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| 12:04 | <Kyle__> moquist: Out of curiosity, have you set a default ldm session?
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| 12:04 | moquist: When I did that (and did it incorrectly ;) I saw it try and start the session, then die, on each client.
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| 12:06 | <Kyle__> moquist: Dude, I"m looking at the ion3 screenshots, and that is _definately_ the type of WM I would have used....
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| 12:06 | Sweet.
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| 12:06 | Teach the 2nd graders....
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| 12:06 | <moquist> heh
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| 12:07 | well, it *is* an LTSP-specific problem
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| 12:07 | logging into the server directly works fine
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| 12:07 | I'm about to google 'sshd channel 11: open failed'
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| 12:07 | 'cuz that happens, and then it dies
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| 12:08 | right, so it would seem one side is trying to connect to something on the other that isn't there
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| 12:09 | can I turn on ssh debugging easily...sure. in ssh_config, or something.
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| 12:09 | Kyle__: I haven't set a default ldm session, but it's possible they have here.
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| 12:09 | sessions work OK for some users with different group memberships
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| 12:09 | <thunsucker> moquist: ion3 looks awesome
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| 12:09 | <moquist> thunsucker: check out notion then, instead
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| 12:10 | ion3 is abandoned
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| 12:10 | <Kyle__> Oh...Weird :/
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| 12:10 | <moquist> Kyle__: but I've tried 'Gnome - failsafe' and... it wasn't.
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| 12:10 | <Kyle__> Is your ldm.conf pretty streightforward?
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| 12:10 | <moquist> haven't touched it
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| 12:11 | on the client or server?
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| 12:11 | it's been waaaay too long... :/
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| 12:11 | * moquist starts looking | |
| 12:11 | <Kyle__> oh. on the server.
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| 12:11 | <moquist> path?
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| 12:11 | locate & find /etc have failed me so far
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| 12:12 | <Kyle__> /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/<arch>/lts.conf
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| 12:12 | <moquist> yeesh. and google just returns a million hits for ldmconf.exe, which is definitely not what I want
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| 12:13 | Kyle__: lts.conf is actually empty right now
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| 12:13 | * moquist remembered/found where lts.conf was | |
| 12:13 | <moquist> it had stuff, but I ended up deleting it.
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| 12:13 | <Kyle__> O_o
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| 12:13 | I didn't actually think it would work empty.
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| 12:13 | <moquist> it was from Edubuntu 6.04 or something, IIRC, upgraded to Hardy, then to Lucid (which is when they called me about this sessions-dying problem)
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| 12:13 | oh. it does.
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| 12:14 | * moquist double checks | |
| 12:14 | <moquist> maybe something repopulated it
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| 12:14 | nope. just comments.
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| 12:14 | wasn't sure if ltsp-build-client would do something with the file or not... but nope.
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| 12:14 | <Kyle__> moquist: physical hardware or VM?
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| 12:14 | <vagrantc> if y'all are looking for an ion3 without a completely insane upstream, try tritium ... started maintaining it in debian this year.
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| 12:14 | <moquist> physical
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| 12:15 | <thunsucker> vagrantc: i will check that out
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| 12:15 | <moquist> vagrantc: I'm planning to switch from ubuntu to debian next time an upgrade comes around, and I'll be reconsidering WMs then...I'll check it out, too.
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| 12:15 | <Kyle__> OK. Because I upgraded from a VM of jaunty to lucid, and it works, but now there's a slight funkiness to it.
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| 12:17 | <thunsucker> moquist: is starting over from a fresh lucid install be out of the question?
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| 12:17 | <moquist> thunsucker: last resort
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| 12:17 | this is an ltsp-specific problem, so it seems like it should be solveable without redoing the whole OS
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| 12:19 | <thunsucker> moquist: i agree, a shorter fix might be to uninstall ltsp, clean house a little
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| 12:19 | <moquist> I just cranked up ssh logging, so maybe I'll get more info
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| 12:19 | <thunsucker> moquist: then reinstall ltsp from scratch
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| 12:19 | <moquist> thunsucker: yeah. I might head that direction soon.
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| 12:19 | let's see what increased ssh logging tells me...
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| 12:20 | <vbundi> hey guys... is it safe to install evince inside the chroot so that localapps-firefox can open pdf files after downloading them?
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| 12:20 | <moquist> thunsucker: I've never installed ltsp "from scratch", or if I did, it was once and 4-5 years ago. Not my first avenue. :)
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| 12:21 | <thunsucker> moquist: it's farely straight forward, eventhough I've never touched edubuntu
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| 12:21 | <moquist> vbundi: I sure the heck would, but what do I know? ;)
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| 12:21 | thunsucker: well, it's just ubuntu
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| 12:21 | so it should be the same process
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| 12:21 | <thunsucker> i agree just adds a few steps for the edubuntu addons
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| 12:22 | i use a custom rdesktop screen script on my installs
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| 12:25 | <vbundi> moquist: gee thanks ;)
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| 12:26 | <thunsucker> vbundi: don't see why it would hurt the chroot
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| 12:28 | <vbundi> it adds a bunch of extra dependencies
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| 12:28 | gconf and stuff... I don't want to bloat it up
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| 12:32 | <abeehc-_> vbundi: i have evince in my chroot
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| 12:32 | and openofice and lord knows what else
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| 12:32 | it's a PITA making FF work as localapp properly with gnome
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| 12:32 | make sure you have ff-gnome-support or whatever package inthe chroot
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| 12:33 | though i'm slowly moving away from localapps
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| 12:38 | <vbundi> thanks abe
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| 12:38 | abeehc-_ yea :)
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| 12:43 | <abeehc-_> anytime
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| 12:45 | <alkisg> vbundi: why don't you try ltsp-remoteapps instead, to launch evince on the server? Won't that be simpler?
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| 12:46 | <vbundi> alkisg: I tried this and did not have any luck last time
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| 12:46 | <alkisg> OK, if you need help troubleshooting just ping :)
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| 12:47 | <vbundi> well maybe I tested wrong.. heres what I did
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| 12:47 | alksig: ltsp-localapps xterm and from that I ran ltsp-remoteapps xterm
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| 12:47 | which does nothing
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| 12:47 | <alkisg> LTSP_REMOTEAPPS=True in lts.conf is needed
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| 12:48 | or similar, let me see...
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| 12:48 | <vagrantc> yeah, remoteapps is disabled by default
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| 12:48 | <alkisg> REMOTE_APPS=True
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| 12:49 | <vagrantc> gah. not documented in ltsp-docs...
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| 12:49 | <alkisg> What does firefox do, when evince isn't installed?
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| 12:49 | Does it try to launch evince anyway, or does it say that no app is associated?
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| 12:49 | <abeehc-_> i've found it didn't work well
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| 12:49 | but it might be that gnome-support package
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| 12:49 | as opposed to evnince I can't remember
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| 12:50 | cause yeah the file association to open a file from ff doesn't work
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| 12:50 | I can't recall why I moved evince to the chroot after all.. I think it was an attempt to solve the association problem when i found in the end that support-package solved the problem
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| 12:50 | <alkisg> If it tries to run something, then a script can be put there (e.g. in /usr/bin/evince) which runs ltsp-remoteapps evince "$@"
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| 12:52 | <vbundi> alkisg: says app not associated
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| 12:53 | <alkisg> Ah, then it's more difficult, one should put the association too...
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| 12:53 | <vbundi> alkisg: LTSP_REMOTEAPPS=True... of course.
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| 12:53 | thanks again guys
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| 12:53 | <alkisg> No that was wrong, the correct is: (08:50:20 PM) alkisg: REMOTE_APPS=True
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| 12:53 | <vbundi> doh, strike that from the record. ;)
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| 12:58 | <AndyGraybeal_> does the screensaver work in ltsp? it blanks my screen after a minute, but i think that's it. when i select "ants" or something it doesn't work.
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| 12:59 | i mean, my scren just blanks
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| 13:00 | <johnny> the "or something" matters
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| 13:00 | ants is an opengl screensaver
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| 13:00 | that could be why
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| 13:01 | <AndyGraybeal_> well... i mean any screen saver; i hvae a custom screen saver that is a 'logoff' script
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| 13:01 | <johnny> ah ok
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| 13:01 | <AndyGraybeal_> that i would like to work
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| 13:01 | <johnny> works for me :)
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| 13:01 | oh.. you probably just have screen blanking before the saver kicks in
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| 13:01 | i hope..
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| 13:01 | that's all i do.. is screen blanking
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| 13:01 | <AndyGraybeal_> that might be the case.. it seems like it.
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| 13:01 | <johnny> saves power
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| 13:01 | <AndyGraybeal_> how do i turn off the screen blanking ?
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| 13:02 | because i want it to log off
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| 13:02 | <johnny> the same place as the screen savers..
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| 13:02 | <AndyGraybeal_> k
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| 13:02 | <johnny> at least in gnome
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| 13:02 | <AndyGraybeal_> yea
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| 13:02 | <johnny> there's a gconf key to set it globally
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| 13:02 | i don't know it tho
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| 13:02 | <AndyGraybeal_> yea, i understand - i got the key
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| 13:03 | i've set the screen saver to a logoff script.. and it works great when i go into the 'screensavers' dialog box.. it'll automatically log me out. but when the screen goes blank, i wait a few minutes and i'm still logged in. i've set the thing to log me out after a minute of inactivity.. (just for testing purposes) but it never logs me out.
| |
| 13:04 | if that makes any sense
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| 13:04 | let me try another non-opengl screensaver
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| 13:05 | <muppis> Comes to mind, does it run that script as user?
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| 13:05 | .. as different user.
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| 13:05 | <AndyGraybeal_> muppis: i'm not exactly sure
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| 13:06 | and i don't know how to find out honestly... it's in the screensavers thingie
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| 13:06 | and it's been a couple of weeks since i had a chance to work on this so i don't remember some of the details.
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| 13:07 | <muppis> Me neither. Never done any screensaver for Gnome.
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| 13:09 | <moquist> ohhhhh. 'Segmentation fault at address 0x2f8' in the Xorg log on the TC
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| 13:14 | mistik1 has joined #ltsp | |
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| 13:14 | <AndyGraybeal_> ah.. idle is 5 minutes
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| 13:16 | <markit> alkisg: hi, I've run a /whowas dgross but seems is not known... could you check this nick?
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| 13:17 | <alkisg> markit: gimme 10'...
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| 13:19 | <vagrantc> oooh. i want a screensaver configuration to log out users...
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| 13:19 | i've hacked together some ugly scripts ... but i've been thinking about using a screensaver to do it...
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| 13:19 | <AndyGraybeal_> vagrantc: :)
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| 13:20 | <markit> alkisg: btw, I've checked italc svn... on the site the release is 10
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| 13:20 | sorry
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| 13:20 | 1.0.11
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| 13:20 | while svn is still at 1.0.3
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| 13:20 | <alkisg> Yes, he's recently been trying to add a few features
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| 13:20 | <markit> I've the bad feeling that you can't collaborate much with this project
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| 13:20 | <alkisg> Since 2 years he was planning for a major rewrite, italc 2.0, but..
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| 13:20 | <markit> and I don't understand why
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| 13:21 | <alkisg> I think he wanted to make money off of it, didn't make any, and abandoned it for the most part
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| 13:21 | <markit> alkisg: isn't a shame that does not happen that some government takes the project, involves a pari of university and brings it to a high level for the whole world behalf?
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| 13:21 | <alkisg> It is indeed
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| 13:22 | <markit> is a point that makes me sad... foss is so important and so neglected
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| 13:22 | <alkisg> It would save themselves a lot of money (e.g. instead of schools buying netsupport) and it would make many other teachers happy too :)
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| 13:22 | I'm hoping that they'll see the light in a couple decades :D
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| 13:22 | <markit> exactly
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| 13:23 | oh, so fast? lol
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| 13:23 | <vagrantc> they'll get it about 5 years after it's really relevent anymore
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| 13:23 | <markit> vagrantc: I bet on this!
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| 13:23 | jhutchins_lt has quit IRC | |
| 13:24 | <markit> in any case, foss should find a really working "business model" in a way that everyone is keept free, and skilled contributors can gain a linving on it
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| 13:24 | M4gic5t0rM has quit IRC | |
| 13:24 | <alkisg> The government here supported sch-scripts for local use, I hope that they'll continue supporting us so that we internationalize it in 2 years
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| 13:25 | <markit> alkisg: this is a good news
| |
| 13:25 | <muppis> Here in Finland one town changed back to MS products instead of using LTSP in schools.. They claimed that it's cheaper than buying support from outside.
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| 13:25 | <alkisg> A good classroom administration tool is missing from floss world :-/
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| 13:25 | <vagrantc> muppis: sad to hear
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| 13:25 | <markit> alkisg: I've had a look at some sources of your project, but full of greek strings, impossible for me to understand
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| 13:25 | <muppis> They should had hire one or two supportpersonal rather than buying it outside.
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| 13:25 | <alkisg> markit: yup, no i18n support for now
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| 13:26 | <markit> alkisg: isn't a ubuntu package available? I've found by chance one yesterday
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| 13:26 | <alkisg> We have one in the greek schools ppa, https://launchpad.net/~ts.sch.gr/+archive/ppa/
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| 13:26 | <markit> alkisg: ltsp-controlaula
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| 13:26 | <alkisg> ...still greek, sad to say :)
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| 13:26 | Ah, I tried that once
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| 13:26 | Then I had to format my pc to get rid of it
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| 13:27 | It wrote everywhere in a portinst script and didn't bother removing stuff on uninstallation
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| 13:27 | <muppis> vagrantc, yes it was, especially knowning something about MS's princing policy. My friends compared to drugdealing..
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| 13:28 | <vagrantc> muppis: it seems like funding a few local people to support it would be orders of magniture more useful and cheaper than hiring outside support
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| 13:28 | <markit> alkisg: don't know in Greece, but here in italy some schools have migrated to foss, but each school does everything on it's own, reinventing the wheel
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| 13:28 | so depressing
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| 13:29 | <muppis> vagrantc, outsourcing is still the magic word around here in city govermenta.
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| 13:29 | goverments..
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| 13:30 | <markit> muppis: where are you from? (italy here)
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| 13:30 | <muppis> markit, Finland.
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| 13:30 | <markit> oh, I thought was the FOSS eaven, no?
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| 13:31 | common feeling here is that northern countries are very well organized, and spend money and use resources wisely
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| 13:31 | so FOSS is the perfect fit
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| 13:31 | <muppis> markit, in companies and communities yes, but not in public sector yet..
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| 13:34 | Well.. We still got hope. Why I got involved to LTSP, one of local schools decide to drop need of MS licences to gain savings.
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| 13:35 | <markit> muppis: do you thing that the Freedom is never a good point to convince for migration? Ethical reasons don't count enough?
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| 13:36 | because often M$ gives big discounts to school, and in addition to professors, so they are motivated to adopt M$evilware to have for personal usage also
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| 13:36 | or school books come with CD with windows-only programs
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| 13:37 | <moquist> bah. why would X segfault on the TC for some users but not others??!?
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| 13:38 | <vagrantc> markit: i think the simple ethics of freedom probably aren't enough ... you need to demonstrate the practical benefits of freedom ...
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| 13:38 | <muppis> markit, I think most of people in city goverments thinks that free software can't get support anywhere, or it had to find by themselfs.
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| 13:38 | <alkisg> !compiz
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| 13:38 | <ltspbot> alkisg: "compiz" :: if compiz is giving you problems, one way to disable it for all users is: sudo gconftool-2 --direct --config-source xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.mandatory --type string --set /desktop/gnome/session/required_components/windowmanager metacity
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| 13:39 | <vagrantc> the translateability of free software and the possibility to do local branding can be compelling
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| 13:39 | <alkisg> moquist: that's a frequent reason ^^^
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| 13:39 | <markit> muppis: also they think is the same as "freeware", or that is the "poors people choice", deceptive software for miserable people
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| 13:40 | instead Freedom is a BIG PLUS, you should be willing to pay more for the privilege of being free
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| 13:40 | <moquist> alkisg: ah. thanks.
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| 13:40 | <markit> this problem puzzles me a lot
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| 13:40 | <muppis> As I think, two big customers of our company can gain lot of savings by using LTSP than unupdated XP..
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| 13:40 | markit, that might be true.
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| 13:41 | <alkisg> markit: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2010-August/003564.html
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| 13:41 | (about dgroos)
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| 13:41 | <markit> ltsp for rdestop to some Win200X server or for run "GNU/Linux" software natively?
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| 13:42 | <muppis> But I think most important reason is that they don't know where to get support when needed if software is obtained free from internet. Or, like I just said, they think it had to search all over the net.
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| 13:43 | Natively, as they mostly use web-based systems anyway.
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| 13:43 | <markit> muppis: instead the "aproach" I've found so far here is: is free = worth nothing
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| 13:44 | <muppis> markit, :)
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| 13:44 | <markit> or, I'm using since free, so don't want to spend money on support
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| 13:44 | if they save 1000$ from M$ license, they don't invest .. 800 for support or help
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| 13:44 | is a crazy world...
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| 13:45 | <vagrantc> cost is often a poor argument for moving to FOSS
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| 13:45 | <markit> I've got the conclusion that the problem is psycological more than technical
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| 13:45 | vagrantc: I do belive in it, and I suffer when I get the impression that is the only argument people lissen and understand
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| 13:45 | <elias_a> muppis: Getting support is exactly the reason why some companies are quite successful in their business....
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| 13:45 | <alkisg> Redistribution + automatic configuration is the best arguments for us here...
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| 13:46 | +cost, but we have a lot of piracy so that doesn't say much
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| 13:46 | <muppis> I call it Uncle Scrooge -syndrome. Spending milloin to save cents..
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| 13:46 | <markit> alkisg: reading the message url you gave me. Very interesting! btw, is not cited the possibility for the teacher to see children's screen.. is it implemented?
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| 13:46 | <elias_a> Actually the turn key solutions based on LTSP are shown to be cheap.
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| 13:47 | <alkisg> markit: yup, with vinagre/x11vnc ( automatic, just double click on the student)
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| 13:47 | <vagrantc> if the only argument you have is that it costs less, you will loose.
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| 13:47 | even if that's true, it should merely come across as a bonus
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| 13:47 | <elias_a> I have to hit the bed now. Cheerio!
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| 13:47 | <markit> vagrantc: totally agree, but was yet not able to be persuading with ethics
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| 13:47 | <vagrantc> an "oh, by the way, this thing that's so much better for all the above reasons, it *happens* to be cheaper"
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| 13:48 | <markit> vagrantc: but to be sincere many foss project are not very good
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| 13:48 | like italc
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| 13:48 | <vagrantc> no doubt about that
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| 13:48 | <markit> or maybe alkisg will loose interest in it'sproject and abandon it
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| 13:48 | and we will have "2 half solutions"
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| 13:48 | <alkisg> Nope, I have to keep developing it because I use it every day
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| 13:48 | <markit> instad in a just one but incredible good
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| 13:49 | <alkisg> (in contrast with the italc student which stopped caring when he graduated)
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| 13:49 | <markit> alkisg: just an exaple of how foss dev often works, take for example CAD... 24 projects, none "good enough"
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| 13:50 | alkisg: do you think will be feasable have a "core" and 2 interface version, one for gtk and one for kde?
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| 13:50 | <alkisg> markit: I agree, maintaining floss projects isn't for everyone... one should have good reasons to commit to that
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| 13:50 | <moquist> alkisg: success!
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| 13:50 | alkisg: that was perfect. thank you!
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| 13:50 | <alkisg> markit: yes, the networking backend is separated (not cleanly, but well enough)
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| 13:50 | <markit> alkisg: yes, and nog get depressed because many people don't help but just pretend
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| 13:50 | <alkisg> moquist: you're welcome
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| 13:50 | <markit> and if you ask for donations... no money at all arrives!!!
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| 13:51 | <alkisg> markit: but, noone will develop a kde frontend if he doesn't use kde :)
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| 13:51 | <markit> alkisg: I do use kde :)
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| 13:51 | <alkisg> (and we discourage it here because of lack of interested developers in greece)
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| 13:51 | markit: well, if you know python and qt, jump on :)
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| 13:51 | <markit> I know ... ruby lol
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| 13:52 | I'm so often on the "other" side of the main flow...
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| 13:52 | sigh
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| 13:52 | <muppis> Never got familiar with KDE and ain't good with GNOME..
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| 13:53 | <vagrantc> if i have to use a "normal" seeming environment, i go with LXDE
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| 13:54 | * alkisg would like to investigate lxde+debian based fat clients... | |
| 13:54 | <alkisg> (lubuntu is quite bloated)
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| 13:54 | * vagrantc too | |
| 13:55 | <vagrantc> although, if i start doing fat clients, people will probably demand GNOME
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| 13:55 | <markit> kde is so nice, qt so well designed... gnome is push by "big business boys"
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| 13:56 | and is "mono free" so far ;)
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| 13:56 | <vagrantc> i find KDE painful...
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| 13:56 | Lns has joined #ltsp | |
| 13:56 | <markit> vagrantc: how is that? maybe you convince me to change :)
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| 13:56 | <alkisg> Right, but right now, gnome works fine for us, and kde doesn't (not only for ltsp, but for other apps too) :)
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| 13:57 | <markit> alkisg: like?
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| 13:57 | <vagrantc> markit: the user interface has all sorts of moving widgets and buttons and really confuses experienced and new users alike ... unless they *happen* to like all that. :)
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| 13:57 | <muppis> Shame that apps like Yakuake never ported for Gnome.
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| 13:57 | <markit> vagrantc: probably gnome shell will be the same, I suppose (never seen, just guessing)
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| 13:58 | <vagrantc> i'm not really one to look for converts, but i honestly have seem many first-time computer users far more confused by KDE that most other environments
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| 13:58 | <markit> vagrantc: I find the menu bar at the top of the screen the "I've got wrong a good idea" example... Mac has it but works differently, and the right way facilitating mouse movements
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| 13:58 | <Lns> oh noes a gnome vs kde war! *ducks*
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| 13:59 | <vagrantc> markit: i don't like gnome either, mind you :)
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| 13:59 | <markit> Lns: not a war, just confronting experiences and points of view
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| 13:59 | <Lns> ;)
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| 14:00 | <markit> Lns: isn't the way every war starts? good intentions and confrontation... lol
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| 14:00 | <Lns> imho kde tries to be like other GUIs too much. Gnome has its own look and feel seperate from the rest, which I appreciate.
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| 14:00 | <Kyle__> Lns: Pfft. I'm using virtualbox's VBoxSDL instead of a WM for most of my users ;)
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| 14:00 | Lns: Not even KDE or GNOME.
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| 14:00 | <vagrantc> LXDE outperforms them all.
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| 14:00 | * vagrantc uses tritium | |
| 14:01 | * Lns loves using fluxbox whenever possible | |
| 14:01 | <Lns> the awesome thing is that there *is* a choice.
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| 14:01 | <markit> in any case, also this "desktop fragmentation" is not very good for GNU/Linux spread
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| 14:01 | fabolous having choices, but...
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| 14:01 | <Lns> markit: disagree with that
| |
| 14:02 | variety is the spice of life.
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| 14:02 | andrew_ubuntu has joined #ltsp | |
| 14:02 | <markit> Lns: I've tried gnome also (remix on netbook).. you find "gnome version" of kde apps, so there are double efforts
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| 14:02 | <vagrantc> can't have freedom without freedom
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| 14:02 | <markit> and often none a good program
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| 14:02 | <Lns> markit: you can run kde apps in gnome and vise versa (mostly)
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| 14:03 | <markit> Lns: I know and I started that way,, but found I was running all kde apps inside gnome, so installed kde again :)
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| 14:03 | <Lns> I think the spreading of Linux is going great. People who find a use for it are using it, and those who don't like it don't use it as much. It's a perfect scenario.
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| 14:04 | Like me - I use LTSP in particular to 'extend' my beefy PC upstairs downstairs so I can watch streaming movies, etc. and have my same environment as upstairs.
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| 14:04 | not to mention other environments for my business
| |
| 14:04 | <markit> Lns: another thing that puzzles me is that if you show someone a Mac, he says "oh, so beautiful". If you show the same on gnome/kde, they say "oh, linux? so difficoult, is just for experts like you"
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| 14:05 | <Lns> It's not for everyone, but when you find a good use case it's really cool.
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| 14:05 | <markit> in any case, I'm in trouble at school now
| |
| 14:05 | thanks to alkisg, I've found the bug that makes client booting so miserable experience
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| 14:05 | https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/+bug/589034
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| 14:05 | <Lns> markit: right. well that's because they need to use it a little bit and realize it's not that difficult. ;)
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| 14:06 | <markit> at least, I hope is this and the "suggested workaround" will work
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| 14:06 | Lns: yes, but if you use a mac you perceive yourself as "superior product owner"
| |
| 14:06 | if you use gnu/linux, is not that way you feel
| |
| 14:07 | btw, also branding is totally crazy with gnu/linux
| |
| 14:07 | every distro has it's one
| |
| 14:07 | <muppis> Good night for all of you.
| |
| 14:07 | <markit> while apple has just an.. apple to show on laptops
| |
| 14:07 | night muppis :)
| |
| 14:08 | <alkisg> good night muppis
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| 14:08 | markit: do comment on that bug... :)
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| 14:09 | <markit> alkisg: the fun thing is that nbd-proxy has been introduced or improved recently (I've not read carefully) to improve stability
| |
| 14:09 | so if I patch I will get better boot, but more instability
| |
| 14:09 | <alkisg> Erm, for ltsp-cluster roaming sessions only
| |
| 14:09 | Nah
| |
| 14:10 | <AndyGraybeal_> okay.. so i'v set the 'idle_delay' to 1, screesavers is set to 'cosmos-slideshow'.. the 'mode' is set to 'single' which means it's not set to 'blank-only
| |
| 14:10 | * alkisg has that disabled for all greek school installations | |
| 14:10 | <alkisg> (nbd-proxy)
| |
| 14:10 | <markit> alkisg: you happen to be a ltsp guru.. how is that?
| |
| 14:10 | <AndyGraybeal_> ' and it still blanks on me (i pressed enter too fast accidentally)
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| 14:10 | <alkisg> markit: I've been using it, so I dived in :)
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| 14:10 | <markit> alkisg: I use a lot of things I've no idea how they work, lol
| |
| 14:10 | also develop that program seems not trivial
| |
| 14:11 | in short, my compliments!
| |
| 14:11 | <alkisg> I've been a windows programmer for 17 years, that helped a bit
| |
| 14:11 | Thanks!
| |
| 14:11 | (but most thanks go to the core ltsp devs :))
| |
| 14:12 | <markit> me too, all my legacy programs are in Delphi.. and the only thing I can do in foss is with ruby on rails, I still have to find the time and will to start C++ or python programming for help some project
| |
| 14:13 | <alkisg> Heh, mostly Delphi here too! And I have to use it for my phd too, to continue a programming language + IDE I've once developed, and now I hate booting windows in a vm to work on ...:-/
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| 14:13 | <markit> reading the rest of the message: sudo apt-get install sch-scripts
| |
| 14:14 | <alkisg> Ah, better find dgroos if you decide to install that
| |
| 14:14 | He'll help you get it to english
| |
| 14:14 | <markit> great, I've a vm (vm server based on proxmox project, heard about it?) where to test it
| |
| 14:15 | never tried Lazarus?
| |
| 14:15 | http://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Main_Page
| |
| 14:15 | proxmox is a bare metal installation, so beware before trying it
| |
| 14:15 | <alkisg> I played with lazarus for 1 day, I wasn't too satisfied...
| |
| 14:15 | <andrew_ubuntu> Question for you LTSP experts out there... How do you enable desktop effects for Nvidia cards? I've installed the proprietary driver, but I can't change my monitor's resolution nor can I enable "visual effects". Had to put XSERVER=nvidia in the lts.conf to get my native resolution of 1280x1024, otherwise it would default to 800x600!
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| 14:16 | <alkisg> I've been using vbox here, works fine for all my needs
| |
| 14:16 | <markit> when I read "proprietary drivers" I become sad :(
| |
| 14:16 | <johnny> you must install the proprietary drivers locally
| |
| 14:16 | and on the server
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| 14:16 | probably there are instructions tho
| |
| 14:16 | <markit> alkisg: for desktop maybe is better vbox, but you could use for a ltsp server on one vm machine, and a web server in another vm, etc.
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| 14:16 | fast to setup (15 min for installation, web based management)
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| 14:17 | <alkisg> markit: vbox has a headless mode too, I didn't find anything I want to do that vbox doesn't do it, so I stack with it
| |
| 14:17 | stuck, maybe
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| 14:17 | <markit> who knows? :)
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| 14:18 | ok, was just a suggestion, openvz container are really resource savings, while kvm provides full virtualization. Clustering and live migration complete the picture
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| 14:18 | * alkisg wants to test lxc (linux containers) in the future | |
| 14:18 | <markit> so I suggest you just to have a look at the feature, maybe one day you will find that you need such a solution
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| 14:19 | <alkisg> ty
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| 14:19 | <andrew_ubuntu> Ok. Thanks Johnny. I didn't install the drivers on the server, so I'll try that now. I've been using clients w/ Intel VCs, and they work out of the box... but they "claim" they get a white screen when the login, so I thought I'd try Nvidia VCs....
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| 14:19 | <markit> mmm i use dnsmasq too, I love it
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| 14:20 | * alkisg too, simon implemented proxydhcp for us and saved us :) | |
| 14:20 | <alkisg> (==boot ltsp clients with a cheap router as the dhcp server)
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| 14:21 | <markit> I'm reading about "profiles",, what are them?
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| 14:21 | is acl enabled and used with edubuntu?
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| 14:21 | <alkisg> Where did you read about profiles? In what context?
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| 14:21 | <markit> I've more and more the feeling that use with kubuntu and not edubuntu is nearly impossible for me
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| 14:22 | alkisg: a "following message" https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2010-August/003565.html
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| 14:22 | but maybe was not the same thread, lol
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| 14:22 | I'm too tired probably
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| 14:23 | <alkisg> There's a menu editor in edubuntu (to show different menus on each education level) and there's sabayon for locking down settings, both use profiles
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| 14:23 | <AndyGraybeal_> is there a reason my screensaver isn't working? (like for instance.. i don't have it set to the GL ones anymore, i have it set to "picture slideshow" -- my screen simply goes blank though -- here is my mandatory gconf settings for reference: http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/jpJAetW3 ; my default gconf keys are empty.
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| 14:26 | i'm wondering if i've done something wrong somewhere along the line.
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| 14:29 | maybe i'll take out all my mandatory keys regarding the screensaver and see what happens.
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| 14:37 | shogunx has quit IRC | |
| 14:43 | <AndyGraybeal_> other people are able to run screensavers right (like the "Pictures folder")?
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| 14:44 | <abeehc-_> i've seen them work fine before
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| 14:44 | I'd take a look at the client video capabilities
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| 14:44 | as far as the gl ones go
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| 14:44 | <andrew_ubuntu> Johnny: After installing nvidia-glx-185 on the server (same package I installed in the client chroot) I still can't get compiz (desktop effects) working for nvidia clients. Any other ideas?
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| 14:46 | and I can't find any documentation on this either... was following the https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/AtomIon page since this is an Intel Atom w/ Nvidia Ion graphics, but it doesn't mention anything about compiz nor installing the drives on the server-side too... so, I'm at a loss. Not going to spend too much more time on this. I'll just move on to ATI next ;).
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| 14:46 | <AndyGraybeal_> abeehc-_: well, not even trying to run 'gl' screensavers.. just the 'pictures' folder.. or anything simple -- my main goal is to run a 'logoff' script. it appears that it won't even run a my 'pictures folder' scrensaver. it just blanks the screen
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| 14:47 | <abeehc-_> i trust you have some pictures in your pictures folder
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| 14:48 | <johnny> it's really recommended that nvidia sucks :)
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| 14:48 | <andrew_ubuntu> LOL
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| 14:48 | <johnny> sorry.. i'm not going to try to debug their proprietary drivers
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| 14:48 | <AndyGraybeal_> abeehc-_: lots :)
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| 14:48 | <johnny> i bought intel hardware on purpose
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| 14:49 | <andrew_ubuntu> ya, I don't blame ya
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| 14:49 | <johnny> of course.. not the terrible gma 500 tho :(
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| 14:49 | nvidia for me.. is only for games
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| 14:49 | <AndyGraybeal_> abeehc-_: the 'preview' works great. in fact the 'preview' of my logout script works great too... logs me right off.
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| 14:49 | <johnny> if i was a big gamer.. which i'm not :)
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| 14:49 | hah AndyGraybeal_
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| 14:49 | <andrew_ubuntu> I use Nvidia on my XP box only because I game.... and I like the physx effects.
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| 14:50 | <abeehc-_> that's interesting i'm out of ideas sorry
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| 14:50 | <AndyGraybeal_> but i can't get it to run as a screensaver, nor do my screensavers actually run, just blank screen. i even deletd all my mandatory gconf keys.. just in case.
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| 14:50 | er... i mean not all just the ones related to 'gnome-screensaver'
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| 14:50 | abeehc-_: thank you
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| 14:50 | <abeehc-_> yeah i can't even choose a different one from the blank screen in gnome-screensaver-preferences
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| 14:52 | <andrew_ubuntu> johnny: thanks for your help though... much appreciated. I'm happy with the Intel clients I have, except for the white screen... it goes away after the scroll their mouse, so I dunno what causes that. I assumed it was video card, but it *generally* only happens when the login the first time in the morning. They are 4 hours away, so I can't see w/ my own eyes what they are talking about. Other than that, the LOVE LTSP!!!
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| 14:52 | "the LOVE LTSP!!!"... ugh, I hate typos. ;)
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| 14:53 | <AndyGraybeal_> abeehc-_: thanks for helping
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| 15:01 | i'm thinking i should email the list and see what happens.
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| 15:01 | <alkisg> AndyGraybeal_: is gnome-screensaver running for the user on the client?
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| 15:01 | ps -ef | grep gnome-screensaver
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| 15:01 | (on the server)
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| 15:02 | <AndyGraybeal_> alkisg: no it looks like isn't running as the user.
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| 15:02 | <alkisg> Try running it manually and check if it works
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| 15:02 | <AndyGraybeal_> 1001, 1020, and 'andy' (my username is andy.graybeal)
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| 15:02 | alkisg: okay
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| 15:03 | <alkisg> (never looked into screensavers, just guessing here...)
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| 15:03 | also, if you click "preview" on the screensavers dialog, it works, right?
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| 15:04 | <AndyGraybeal_> alkisg: yes, it is running as 'andy.graybeal' but it says '1001' which is my number in the /etc/passwd file.
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| 15:04 | <alkisg> Ah, ok then
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| 15:04 | <AndyGraybeal_> i ran gnome-screensaver and it said that it's already running for this session
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| 15:05 | it says andy.graybeal:x:1001:1007
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| 15:10 | <AndyGraybeal_> okay, get this.. i just ran 'gnome-screensaver-command --activate' and it blanked my screen! (it didn't run my 'Pictures Folder')
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| 15:12 | <vbundi> hey guys, I just changed the ip on my machine, ran ltsp-update-sshkeys and my terminals don't get a response from server
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| 15:12 | what did I miss here...?
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| 15:12 | <alkisg> vbundi: ltsp-update-image
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| 15:13 | <vbundi> oh I didn't think I had to do that after server ip change
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| 15:13 | alkisg: thx
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| 15:13 | <alkisg> np
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| 15:14 | <sidartha> anyone have success installing chromium as a local-app?
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| 15:15 | <AndyGraybeal_> is there a reason why when i type the wrong password in, it says 'server timeout' instead of 'wrong password'?
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| 15:16 | it puts my folks off and they come to me and say the server is down :) it's a little funny when they do, but a little scary too.
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| 15:18 | <vbundi> alkisg: still doesn't work... maybe I missed something else
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| 15:19 | alkisg: like something in a conf file, does the order matter of the ltsp-update* commands?
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| 15:22 | alkisg: nm lol
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| 15:23 | <alkisg> :)
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| 15:23 | AndyGraybeal_: sad story, we'll need pam-ssh to have good error messages there.
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| 15:23 | sidartha: afaik chrome doesn't run over sshfs because of locking, it needs an nfs home
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| 15:24 | (NFS_HOME=/home in lts.conf, with the appropriate export on the server)
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| 15:26 | <sidartha> thanks
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| 15:32 | <vbundi> alkisg: I thought I had fixed it... doesn't appear to be working
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| 15:35 | alkisg: ok nm I fixed it... I had changed password authentication to no in sshd_config
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| 15:35 | is there any way I can make it so that people can't ssh into my server without an sshkey?
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| 15:37 | <markit> vbundi: in sshd_conf should be something like "allowpasswordlogin" or something like that, I guess
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| 15:39 | <vbundi> markit: yep that's how I figured, but after doing that, users can't log in to the LTSP server
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| 15:39 | <markit> oh, sure
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| 15:40 | the only thing that comes in mind to me would be 2 different instances of sshd, one bind to a different port, but I think is not an easy setup for some obscure consequences
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| 15:41 | <vagrantc> vbundi: you want some users to be able to log in with a password, but not others?
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| 15:47 | <markit> vagrantc: probably he wants ltsp users work, and remote connection be only with the key (for remote admin purpouses)
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| 15:48 | <alkisg> I think sshd_config supports different configurations based on ip rangs
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| 15:52 | <vbundi> vagrantc: I want to be able to ssh into this server from the internet, but ONLY with a Pre-shared key, not password auth
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| 16:09 | <Sorinan> The jetpipe on client keeps crashing whenever I try to print something, sometimes restarting by itself, sometimes not. Does anyone knows why?
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| 16:25 | <vbundi> alkisg: I will look into that.
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| 18:22 | <Kyle__> Can anyone explain why a gnome session would compleetly change and look like hell after a minor _MINOR_ update?
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| 18:24 | <johnny> because you broke something?
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| 18:24 | <Kyle__> Amazing.
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| 18:24 | <johnny> revert it ? prove it was the update
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| 18:24 | <Kyle__> Anything deeper.
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| 18:24 | <johnny> prove it
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| 18:24 | <Kyle__> johnny: Other than everything working fine across dozens of machines until I updated the image? No, can't really proove it.
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| 18:24 | <johnny> the image?
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| 18:24 | fat clients?
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| 18:25 | <Kyle__> johnny: Yes, I updatd the fat-client image.
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| 18:25 | <johnny> what was the update
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| 18:25 | <Kyle__> apt-get update
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| 18:25 | <johnny> what was updated?
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| 18:25 | c'mon dude
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| 18:25 | try being helfpul
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| 18:25 | * Kyle__ nods | |
| 18:25 | <johnny> really tho.. my suggestion is that you revert your update and narrow down what package it was
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| 18:26 | <Kyle__> lemmie see what shows up logged. It's been awhile since I've had to track down updates in ubuntu.
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| 18:26 | Humm.
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| 18:27 | Actually scratch that. I ran the update on the server, not the client. I've got it reversed.
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| 18:27 | And asside from firefox branding and assorted packages, looks like pulse got updated.
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| 18:28 | And python-lazr...whatevfer the hell that is.
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| 18:29 | I'm wondering if the group names changed.
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| 18:32 | Any idea why pulseaudio coudln't start? This is just too damned weird :/
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| 18:34 | * Kyle__ grumbles. 6:30 is not the time to be doing this | |
| 18:35 | <markit> is partially OT here... I've just installed italc, but auto-discover feature find nothing (I've a client connected instead). Wondering if is searching on the wrong interface (I've eth0 -> ltsp clients, and eth1 -> school lan). Any idea about how to configure?
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| 18:36 | Kyle__: 6.30 am or pm?
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| 18:36 | <Kyle__> PM.
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| 18:36 | <markit> not that bad then :)
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| 18:36 | <Kyle__> I spent all day working on stuff, bouncing machines, making sure things moved properly.
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| 18:36 | <Kyle__> I didn't actually log into the gui on any of them though... otherwise I would have seen this earlier.
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| 18:36 | GRRR
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| 18:36 | <markit> oh, I've a long history of "depressing" experiences too
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| 18:37 | <Kyle__> markit: And I wanted today to be that one day this week I didn't work late ;) ahh well.
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| 18:37 | What are you working onat this hour?
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| 18:38 | <markit> Kyle__: at this precise moment, I've just installed italc and trying to figure out how to make work
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| 18:39 | had bad day with ltsp clients hang just before ldm login
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| 18:39 | <markit> I've fortunatly found help here pointing me to a bug with a suggested patch, I will see tomorrow if works (applied in ssh)
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| 18:39 | italc is in test here in a VM instead
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| 18:39 | <Kyle__> Ahh.
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| 18:40 | Are you using NFS homes?
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| 18:49 | its' audio. The clients can't use audio for some reason, and it's hanging up gnome something fierce, and also effectively killing VMs from starting normally.
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| 18:49 | Hum. So how to get the client audio working again?
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| 18:53 | <markit> Kyle__: no nfs homes... I've no idea about what they are. Also I'm using kubuntu
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| 18:54 | so can't help with gnome audio, sorry
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| 18:54 | <Kyle__> markit: If you use fat clients, it's a nice way to handle files. IMO
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| 18:55 | <markit> Kyle__: oh I use thin clients (well, old fashioned pc with gpxe on hd)
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| 18:55 | <Kyle__> AHh.
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| 18:56 | <markit> I've to become a guru of ACL though... at the moment I've no idea about how implement things and share some area, and let teacher R/W on studen's homes
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| 18:56 | Kyle__: do you use italc?
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| 18:56 | <Kyle__> No. Don't even konw what that is.
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| 18:56 | What is it?
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| 18:57 | <markit> http://italc.sourceforge.net/home.php
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| 18:57 | I've heard is buggy, hope new version is much better, but ubuntu has not the last one available
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| 18:57 | is a feature I've been required to have in my scholl's setup
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| 18:57 | <Kyle__> Ahh. I've seen it mentioned before. Neat stuff.
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| 18:57 | Really?
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| 18:58 | <markit> really what of the above sentences? :)
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| 18:58 | <Kyle__> It's required. That's the surprising part.
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| 18:58 | <markit> for me too :) seems many teachers use the pc room as a sort of "show to all" only way
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| 18:59 | instead of a projector, they say that student's attention is much longer and better if they have to stare at theirs monitor
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| 18:59 | instead of the wall with the projected image
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| 18:59 | or the blackboard
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| 19:00 | <markit> are you working for a school installation too?
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| 19:01 | <Kyle__> Hu. I can see that would be usefull here too.
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| 19:01 | University.
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| 19:02 | Some professors Want the students to not use the computer at all, and have even asked if I could disable them for their lecture period. Others want the students to be able to browse facebook/etc durring class, so they stay happy.
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| 19:02 | Crazy.
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| 19:02 | Still otherws want a web-filtering-proxy so they can look up info on questions, but not certain places where they could get a streight answer.
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| 19:02 | Gotta love it.
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| 19:03 | <markit> :)
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| 19:04 | <Kyle__> Wow. Yea, audio dying really killed my setup... that was it. VirtualBox just hangs, and doesn't start if there's no audio and it expects it.
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| 19:05 | And my default session is a stateless WindowsXP VM.
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| 19:05 | Well, mostly stateless.
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| 19:05 | <johnny> well now that everybody can have phones with their own internet
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| 19:05 | nots ure what the filtering would do
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| 19:05 | kinda lost cause on that front
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| 19:05 | <Kyle__> Yea I know.
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| 19:05 | <johnny> pulseaudio is not a minor update :)
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| 19:06 | * Kyle__ hates pulseaudio. | |
| 19:06 | <johnny> especially if they changed any settings
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| 19:06 | i love it
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| 19:06 | use it all the time
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| 19:06 | route my usb speakers
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| 19:06 | route my bluetooth audio
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| 19:06 | route to my other box
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| 19:06 | works a treat
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| 19:06 | <Kyle__> It's evil, it's a waste of resources, and mostly duplicates what the alsa drivers already do ;)
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| 19:06 | <johnny> no.. .. no no
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| 19:06 | <Kyle__> But I'm not biased against it at all...Nope.
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| 19:06 | <johnny> you're all wrong about everything you just said
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| 19:06 | <Kyle__> ;)
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| 19:06 | <johnny> especially the alsa part
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| 19:06 | they want to drop dmix
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| 19:06 | from the kernel drivers
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| 19:07 | in that case you woudn't be able to play 2 streams at once
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| 19:07 | without a sound server
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| 19:07 | <Kyle__> johnny: one of the whole reasons for pulse in the first place was to have multiple streams on cards with poor drivers.
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| 19:07 | <johnny> no.. it's to have multiple streams total
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| 19:07 | <Kyle__> With the better oss drivers, and _all_ the alsa drivers, yo ucan do that anyway.
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| 19:07 | <johnny> the alsa devs wanted dmix gone
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| 19:07 | no.. they wanted dmix gone :)
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| 19:07 | <Kyle__> Meh.
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| 19:07 | <johnny> because it's a hack
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| 19:07 | <Kyle__> I honestly need to lookup dmix then, because I'm not familiar with it.
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| 19:08 | <johnny> dmix is how alsa with multiple sounds works!
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| 19:08 | or was
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| 19:08 | this was the time when the only options were esd and arts
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| 19:08 | <Kyle__> Seriuosly? I thought that was at a driver leve in there.
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| 19:08 | <johnny> so they hacked up dmix
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| 19:08 | <Kyle__> Ah.
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| 19:08 | <johnny> no.. it's not
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| 19:08 | it's a plugin
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| 19:08 | <Kyle__> I hated those two also. Furiously.
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| 19:08 | <johnny> as well you should
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| 19:08 | i agree with that for sure
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| 19:08 | that's why we all started using dmix
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| 19:08 | <Kyle__> johnny: I always had multiple streams with my sound, and nothing running for it outside of kernelspace.
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| 19:09 | <johnny> but now pulse is even on moible devices
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| 19:09 | Kyle__, so?
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| 19:09 | i wonder if this is new
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| 19:09 | i haven't used plain alsa in uhmm..
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| 19:09 | * johnny tries to remember | |
| 19:09 | <johnny> 4 years maybe..
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| 19:09 | <Kyle__> johnny: So unless dmix was running in-kernel as part of the alsa driver, that's not how it used to work.
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| 19:09 | <johnny> switched to pulse as soon as they got the kinks out
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| 19:09 | wel tha'ts how it worked up until 4 years ago
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| 19:09 | dmix was required
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| 19:09 | * Kyle__ would argue that hasn't happened yet ;) | |
| 19:10 | <johnny> blame the drivers :)
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| 19:10 | <Kyle__> johnny: I assure you dmix was not required. But yes, we can blame the drivers :)
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| 19:11 | Heh. These machines are going to look like they're stuck and not booting when they pull over new VM images now.
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| 19:11 | * Kyle__ shrugs | |
| 19:11 | <Kyle__> Rsync is my friend.
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| 19:11 | Guess I'll only put new ones out at night.
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| 19:18 | * Kyle__ slinks off into the night | |
| 19:23 | <johnny> Kyle__, it was in there by default in most distros..
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| 19:23 | <Kyle__> johnny: REally?
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| 19:23 | I wish it wasn't in the one I"m using
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| 19:23 | * Kyle__ can't leave it. It's not working | |
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| 20:40 | <Kyle__> Ow Ow ow ow ow.
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| 20:42 | OK, for anyone searching the logs of this channel for help, the pulse-audio not starting, incredibly long login times, etc I was experiencing? It was due to ubuntu's rpc.statd not starting, or staying running, on it's own. Once that's going, All the audio issues with ubuntu clients goes away.
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| 20:42 | Again, don't use ubuntu as an NFS server, it caused all the problems.
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| 20:43 | The short, horrible fix? screen -d -m rpc.statd -Fd
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| 20:43 | I missed my daughter's bedtime because I was fixing this s**t. I hate ubuntu.
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| 22:17 | <johnny> Kyle__, ah yes, alkisg mentioned issues related to statd already
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| 22:17 | i haven't experienced that myself
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| 22:17 | i hope a fix is in the works
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| 22:17 | oh yes.. i havent experienced it..because i'm still using sshfs :)
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| 22:17 | forgt that.. i meant to switch to nfs, but haven't
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| 22:18 | Kyle__, i was hoping for null cipher support in sshfs
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