IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 2 March 2012   (all times are UTC)

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09:20
<asmok>
alkisg: about autossh/reverse ssh - what kind of setup you have?
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09:22
<asmok>
alkisg: I use now this simple line from rc.local , server creates pipe to the middle server and I can login in server
09:22
no matter what kind of network there is
09:23
alkisg: I'm in Finland and servers will be in Mexico City
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09:24
<asmok>
alkisg: autossh -M 20022 -f -q -N -R 19999:localhost:22 pipe0@69.xxx.xxx.199 -p 10022
09:26
Do you have something extra beside ssh-keygen, reverse ssh and autossh?
09:27
To me this works quite well now in testing environment, any suggestions?
09:31
I found Gentoo howtos very usefull: http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Category:OpenSSH
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09:46
<wim_>
hi, when i install packages (like gnome-session) in a FAT client env with "ROOT=/opt/ltsp/wheezy ltsp-chroot aptitude install gnome-session" i always ge this error. Setting up openjdk-6-jre-headless (6b24~pre2-1) ...
09:46
the java command requires a mounted proc fs (/proc)
09:46
I tought that ltsp-chroot automatically mount /proc
09:46
When I install it with chroot /opt/ltsp/wheezy, mount -t proc /proc /proc I don't get this error. Is there a bug in ltsp-chroot package?
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09:56
<knipwim>
wim_: it doesn't mount automatically i think
09:57
checkout ltsp-chroot -h for the mount proc option
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10:15
<rickogden>
morning all
10:16
<wim_>
#knipwim: many thanks
10:17
<rickogden>
if I have an LTSP fat client, and I have local-swap enabled, do items the user puts in /tmp reside on the client?
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10:40
<rickogden>
is there any way of changing the size of the /tmp mount?
10:41
<alkisg>
What /tmp mount?
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10:44
<alkisg>
rickogden: USE_LOCAL_SWAP=True means: use any available swap partitions in the client harddisk
10:44
Do your clients have hard disks with swap partitions?
10:45
<rickogden>
yep
10:45
and they are mounted
10:45
what I need to do is increase the size from 1.6gb
10:47
<alkisg>
How big is your swap partition, and how much RAM do your clients have?
10:47
Also, why do you need 1.6 Gb in /tmp?!
10:48
<rickogden>
running virtualbox on the fat clients
10:49
and they need get given a 6gb virtual disk in an exam
10:49
<alkisg>
Put it in /home
10:49
And share it with nfs or something
10:49
NFS_HOME=/home
10:49
<rickogden>
they need their individual copies
10:50
<alkisg>
So, in each /home/username
10:50
Easier in this case
10:50
<rickogden>
I don't have the disk space to provide each student with 6gb of storage
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10:50
<rickogden>
on the server, plus I dread to think the havoc that would play with the network
10:50
this way it's all kept local
10:50
have a 10gb swap partition
10:50
plus 4gb of RAM
10:50
<alkisg>
Sending 6 gb images for local storage would play havoc with the network, not booting a vm
10:51
So how are you sending the images?
10:51
On boot? Statically?
10:51
<rickogden>
pen drives
10:51
<alkisg>
And do you really think that's faster?!
10:51
<rickogden>
it's also a compressed image (< 1gb) which they extract
10:51
not my module
10:52
<alkisg>
Do the clients have ext3/4 partitions?
10:52
<rickogden>
no
10:52
unfortunately not :(
10:52
<alkisg>
And you can't format the 10gb swap partition as ext?
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10:53
<rickogden>
I don't have access to the machines, we're computer science and we put in a request with central IT for a swap partition
10:53
so they put that on at the start of the year
10:53
<alkisg>
Heh, if you're booting them with ltsp, you're root, you can do anything
10:53
But OK I understand
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10:54
<rickogden>
disable access to local hard drives
10:54
<alkisg>
Nah, that's very easy to bypass with ltsp, and especially with fat clients
10:54
So...
10:54
Since tmpfs can't be larger than your RAM,
10:54
<rickogden>
is that RAM+swap?
10:54
<alkisg>
No, just ram
10:55
<rickogden>
ah! That's the issue
10:55
<alkisg>
I think the default is for it to use 50% of your ram
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10:55
<rickogden>
that sounds right (32bit client with 4gb of ram on the system)
10:56
<alkisg>
It's also resizable, i.e. it doesn't use it right away, only when it needs it, but up to 50%
10:56
<rickogden>
yeah, I guessed as much :)
10:56
so it's not possible to use the swap for it?
10:57
<alkisg>
so, your easiest option is to reformat those swap partitions as ext3, and mount them in /tmp
10:57
Harder options involve sharing a single .vdi from the server, with .diffs for each student
10:57
<rickogden>
yeah, we were discussing that
10:57
<alkisg>
You can easily reformat them back as swap when you're done
10:58
It's just a single mkfs call, you can even put it in an rcfile in lts.conf
10:58
<rickogden>
ooh that's a good idea!
10:59
<alkisg>
(remember to have USE_LOCAL_SWAP=false when you do that)
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10:59
<rickogden>
yeah :)
11:00
do you just specify in fstab where to mount /tmp then?
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11:23
<alkisg>
Yes, and you also need CONFIGURE_FSTAB=false
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11:33
<alkisg>
The usual way to export ltsp images is to use ltsp-build-client, run ltsp-update-image etc. I was thinking of an alternative idea, and I'd like to hear thoughts on its usability, especially when non-experienced sysadmins and fat client setups are involved.
11:33
The sysadmin doesn't run ltsp-build-client. Instead, it installs his OS normally, either on virtualbox, qemu or on a real client.
11:33
Then he installs the "ltsp-client" package, which creates two additional grub entries:
11:33
1) Boot this system as an ltsp client (uses local disk instead of networked nbd disk, for low bandwidth networks)
11:33
2) Publish this system to an ltsp server
11:33
When option (2) is selected, the user is prompted for a username/password of the server, and sshfs + mksquashfs are used to generate and export the nbd image.
11:34
From the server side, the sysadmin is expected to declare his generated /home/user/path/to/nbd-image to /etc/nbd-server/conf.d, just once.
11:34
Does this sound reasonable? Maintaining a fat chroot from virtualbox, and publishing it from a grub menu?
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11:39
<alkisg>
Hmm, actually, not a grub menu, but a recovery console entry
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11:56
<rickogden>
alkisg: that sounds rather good
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11:57
<rickogden>
I certainly like the idea of building the client an a real client (rather than a chroot)
12:06
hmm, I've just read that tmpfs can use swap…
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12:12
<alkisg>
It can and it does use swap, but I don't think it can get larger than the physical ram size
12:13
...unless of course if it has an option for it, check the man page
12:17
<rickogden>
that's what I'm checking
12:22
which script mounts the the /tmp directory?
12:24
wondering what happens when I add the switch: -s8G to it
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16:00
<LuizAngioletti>
howdy
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16:35* vagrantc waves to alkisg
16:35
<alkisg>
Hi vagrantc!
16:36
<vagrantc>
so, how's epoptes doing?
16:36
<alkisg>
What's better, an "ltsp-publish-image" command which can run mksquashfs from a .vdi or .qcow2 file, or a "Publish this client disk to the LTSP server" grub menu, which can be used once the qemu/vbox client is booted as a real or VM machine?
16:37
The first one uses the CPU of the server, so it should be faster, the second one should be more robust as the file system is already mounted from inside the VM or real disk, and sshfs+mksquashfs are easy to implement then
16:38
<vagrantc>
alkisg: boot loader menu options are weird.
16:38
<alkisg>
We'll have one anyway, "Boot as an LTSP client"
16:38
It's very useful in low bandwidth networks
16:38
People can install their OS normally on the hard disk, and use the ltsp-client package as a layer to have common home + authentication
16:38
+ lts.conf settings etc
16:39
<vagrantc>
i don't have any problem with the model, just publishing the image from the boot menu.
16:39
<alkisg>
So after they select that, a SCREEN_07=publish-image screen script can take over for the rest, ssh + sshfs + mksquashfs
16:39
That SCREEN_07 would be in lts.conf, affecting only the client that the sysadmin wants to use as a template
16:39
(either VM or real)
16:40
So with the same grub option, all other will just boot as normal ltsp clients, and this template client will go to a "wizard" that will ask username/password and connect to the server and publish the disk
16:41
<vagrantc>
so why have a separate option for this?
16:41
i.e. why not just use "Boot as an LTSP client"?
16:41
<alkisg>
Yup... I was just trying to describe it too quickly at first
16:41
<vagrantc>
and then some clients have the publish image feature enabled.
16:41
<alkisg>
That will indeed be the only additional grub option
16:42
<vagrantc>
but i still like the option to run from the server...
16:42
<alkisg>
We may implement both :)
16:42
I just saw some problems with qemu-nbd and vdfuse when the .vdi was not cleanly unmounted
16:42
I had to boot the VM, run fsck, poweroff, and then they were able to mount it
16:43* alkisg also would like "publish image" to sync to a btrfs image instead of running mksquashfs, should be much faster
16:44
<alkisg>
Now about epoptes... we solved all the known bugs, but Phantomas wants to also implement a "show real names" submenu
16:44
<vagrantc>
the --create-fs-image option seemed to work fine with btrfs
16:44
<alkisg>
So we can either tag it now, or in 4-5 hours, whatever suits you better
16:45
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i'll need to go in about 6-7 hours, so if you feel confident you can get it into a shippable state, i can upload it today, otherwise i might not have time till monday
16:46
<alkisg>
OK let me ping Phantomas, if he can have it ready in a couple of hours, otherwise we can just tag it now and leave the new feature for some other time
16:47
<vagrantc>
ltsp migrated to testing, so i wanted to get an upload that fixes some bugs in that, too.
16:58
alkisg: should i bother testing epoptes before those changes go in?
16:58
<alkisg>
vagrantc: Phantomas doesn't respond, so yeah, let's upload it as is
16:59
<vagrantc>
now the question of weather to test ltsp first, or epoptes...
16:59
<alkisg>
I'm testing it too, if you want to test it, go ahead...
17:00
<vagrantc>
i always test my uploads, except that one ltspfs upload during the LTSP BTS
17:00
:)
17:00
<alkisg>
Hehe
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17:05
<alkisg>
vagrantc: when ltsp clients don't shut down cleanly (e.g. poweroff -fp or nbd disconnect errors), we have a feature in epoptes which detects that and removes them from the detected clients list.
17:05
That feature seems to have broken, so let's leave epoptes for Monday+.
17:05
<vagrantc>
hrm.
17:07
ok, i'll focus on ltsp today, then.
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17:07
<alkisg>
Thanks, if we happen to make it soon enough, I'll ping you
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18:17
<vagrantc>
alkisg: is ltsp-setup completely obsolete now?
18:17
<alkisg>
vagrantc: yes, waiting for someone to delete it :)
18:18
(and remove it from the Start on: entries of ltsp-client-core)
18:20
<vagrantc>
alkisg: is ltsp-setup completely obsolete now?;(
18:20
bah.
18:20
5.3.3 seems kinda borked compared to 5.3.2
18:20
not sure what i'm missing yet...
18:21
really need to figure out the merging of init-ltsp.d dirs...
18:21
at build time
18:22
<alkisg>
knipwim said he didn't like the idea very much, that he preferred symlinks
18:23
If you put common/* and Debian/* in debian/ltsp-client-core.install, what will that do with duplicates?
18:23
Overwrite them, or complain?
18:24
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i want to merge the symlinks at build time
18:25
having to track each an every file added in common or ubuntu or debian and ponder weather i should add it to Debian seems a bit much on the package maintainers... easy to miss something
18:26
<alkisg>
vagrantc: yes, I understand, wouldn't what I said above solve the problem, if dh_install doesn't complain?
18:26
<vagrantc>
i don't even have a clue with what's broken now...
18:26
<alkisg>
ltsp-client-core.install:
18:26
init-ltsp.d/common/* init-ltsp.d/
18:26
init-ltsp.d/Debian/* init-ltsp.d/
18:27
<vagrantc>
alkisg: ah, now i see what you mean
18:27
<alkisg>
If that would put them in the same dir, overwritting common/ files with Debian/ -specific ones, then it should be easy...
18:27
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i think it will overwrite the latter, but won't handle symlinks well.
18:27
<alkisg>
We won't have symlinks in that case though
18:27
Only overrides
18:27
<vagrantc>
right
18:27
<alkisg>
(and additional scripts of course)
18:27
<vagrantc>
of course, since ubuntu and debian share so much, but not all, we've still got the tracking problem
18:28
<alkisg>
No I think in this case we should do:
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18:28
<alkisg>
ltsp-client-core.install: common/ Debian/ Ubuntu/
18:28
I.e. ubuntu will override debian which will override common
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18:29
<vagrantc>
alkisg: but i don't want ubuntu's plugins, i want debian's plugins :P
18:29
not that there's much difference at the moment
18:30
<alkisg>
vagrantc: debian would only have common/ and debian/
18:30
Ubuntu in its packaging would have all three
18:30
Of course the shared plugins would be in debian/
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18:31
<vagrantc>
ah, looks like knipwim just copied code from the plugins into common, which changges some behavior
18:31
<alkisg>
It's like html css, derivatives override their ancestors
18:31
<vagrantc>
alkisg: got it.
18:32
er, copied code from ltsp-init-common into the init-ltsp.d dirs, but some behavior is changed from that
18:35
init-ltsp.d shouldn't call any daemons or start processes, just configure things
18:36
wow.
18:36
my /etc/network/interfaces is really borked
18:37
it contains "auto 10.55.55.1:/opt/ltsp/i386"
18:37
i.e. it's treating the mountpoint as an interface?
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18:37
<xsl>
what ltsp version will be in precise pangolin?
18:37
5.3.3?
18:38
<vagrantc>
5.3.something
18:38
i think ubuntu's basically in bugfix only mode, as i understand it
18:39
<xsl>
since its going to be an LTS release
18:39
Long Term Support
18:41
<vagrantc>
it's currently got 5.3.2, it will likely see a few more bugfixes, which may or may not mean they include a newer upstream version.
18:42
doh. my leftover lts.conf from a previous install confused me. 5.3.3 seems to be fine.
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18:44
<vagrantc>
does gentoo use /etc/network/interfaces?
18:44* vagrantc was thinking that was debian derivatives only
18:46* vagrantc is thinking init-ltsp.d/common/50-interfaces should move out of common, although gentoo symlinks it currently
18:46
<alkisg>
vagrantc: do you think policy-rc.d should be part of the ltsp-client package, or ltsp-chroot should "install" it only temporarily and remove it afterwards?
18:48
<vagrantc>
the whole init-ltsp.d/common dir seems silly ... if every distro does their own thing, the common dir is just a repository for shared things
18:48
?
18:49
alkisg: i did eventually find some sort of policy recommendation suggesting that it not be part of a package... but it wasn't very concrete
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18:50
<vagrantc>
alkisg: it's currently handled by an ltsp-build-client plugin, yes?
18:50
<alkisg>
The problem with putting it in ltsp-chroot is that if it doesn't exit cleanly, it might leave the system in a bit of a mess...
18:50
Yes
18:51
But it'd be nice if we could move from normal installations to ltsp chroots and vice versa without additional trouble
18:51
<vagrantc>
alkisg: yes, i understand that problem ... which is why the policy-rc.d script reacts to certain variables being set.
18:52
and those variables should be set by ltsp-chroot
18:52
ah, but you don't want the ltsp-build-client part?
18:52
you want it somewhere else
18:52
<alkisg>
Yes, suppose I install an OS in a powerpc client
18:52
Then transfer the result to the server
18:52
And then want to keep maintaining it as usual on the server
18:53
So, I have an ltsp chroot that wasn't built with ltsp-build-client
18:53
I'm missing start-stop-daemon, policy-rc.d etc
18:53
<vagrantc>
alkisg: we could ship it in ltsp-client-core as long as we use update-alternatives
18:53
<alkisg>
I've no idea what policy says, but I do think that this would be the cleanest way to do it :)
18:54
<vagrantc>
this is why you're asking me :)
18:54
<alkisg>
Yup... so it's now part of your TODO list, dear ltsp packager :D
18:55
<vagrantc>
i can see one other package that obviously ships a policy-rc.d in the debian archive ... but that doesn't say much
18:55
because they're supposed to use update-alternatives to manage it.
18:55
and update-alternatives could point policy-rc.d to anywhere...
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19:17
<vagrantc>
i haven't tested sound support in quite some time...
19:18
<alkisg>
Pulseaudio included?
19:19
bbl
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19:19
<vagrantc>
yes, it's there, i've just been testing from virtual machines and haven't really tested sound
19:36
hm. the DEVICE variable is used in several possibly incompatible ways in init-ltsp.d ...
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19:43
<vagrantc>
04-server, 09-hostname, 50-cleint-mac, 50-interfaces, 50-jetpipe all use the DEVICE variable a little differently.
19:43
wheee.
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19:49
<vagrantc>
ok, think i found at least one of the problems.
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19:56
<vagrantc>
fixed two of those bugs.
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19:56* vagrantc wonders if we shouldn't set NET_DEVICE=${DEVICE} or some such
19:59
<vagrantc>
with those two patches, ltsp 5.3.3 seems to work fine on debian
20:01* Hyperbyte high fives vagrantc
20:01* vagrantc responds only slightly capably
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20:05
<vagrantc>
meh. what in tarnations is updating /var/cache/apt/*.bin ?
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20:27
<vagrantc>
well, i haven't figured out what's creating it ... but i figured out that it gets created if the files don't already exist ... no idea what's purging those files on chroot creation.
20:29
but running apt-get update seems to fix it.
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21:05
<vagrantc>
well, i figured out a workaround at least... ugh.
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21:36
<stgraber>
vagrantc: at least on Ubuntu apt ships a cron.d job that triggers once a day to update the lists and do some more stuff
21:38
<vagrantc>
stgraber: the problem is that apt-get clean purges /var/cache/apt/*.bin ... which i think is a bug in apt. and then just about any call to apt re-creates those files.
21:38
<stgraber>
oh, that's what's making my i386 containers super slow then!
21:38
I was wondering why these .bin were vanishing every hour or so ';)
21:39
<vagrantc>
might be. i just reported a bug on apt in debian abou tit.
21:39
<stgraber>
and I'm indeed running apt-get clean every hour (configration manager)
21:40
<vagrantc>
which i finally figured out why it sometimes happens on my LTSP setups and sometimes not ... sometimes i'll manually install a package or something.
21:41
stgraber: http://bugs.debian.org/661947
21:42
<stgraber>
vagrantc: mentioned it on IRC in the ubuntu development channel too to make sure we get some additional noise about it ;)
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21:49
<alkisg>
19:43<vagrantc>04-server, 09-hostname, 50-cleint-mac, 50-interfaces, 50-jetpipe all use the DEVICE variable a little differently. ==> we shouldn't be using CAPS in temporary variable names...
21:49
We should make a convension to use them only for exported variables
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21:51
<alkisg>
But yeah net-eth0.conf doesn't have good naming convensions, DEVICE in caps for interface, filename in lowercase for the boot filename....
21:54
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i renamed the ones in 04-server and 50-jetpipe
21:54
<alkisg>
Yup just saw the commits, nice. But I do think that using caps for temporary var names is a bad idea...
22:04
'night all
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