IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 11 September 2014   (all times are UTC)

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02:46* work_alkisg waves
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02:46
<alkisg>
vagrantc: about port 6007, isn't that "-nolisten tcp"?
02:49
<vagrantc>
alkisg: that's what i was wondering
02:50
alkisg: -nolisten tcp is definitely enabled
02:50
<alkisg>
I don't have it here in my thin client
02:50
So, it does listen on tcp...
02:50
I mean, we need to pass "-nolisten tcp" when we're not using LDM_DIRECTX=True
02:51
<vagrantc>
/etc/X11/xinit/xserverrc:exec /usr/bin/X -nolisten tcp "$@"
02:51
thought we use xinit ... maybe it doesn't call xserverrc i guess
02:52
<alkisg>
xinit /usr/share/ltsp/xinitrc /usr/sbin/ldm -- :7 vt7 -auth /var/run/ldm-xauth-sWqADSace/Xauthority -depth 16 -br
02:52
That's my xorg command line here
02:52
And, X :7 vt7 -auth /var/run/ldm-xauth-sWqADSace/Xauthority -depth 16 -br
02:52
<vagrantc>
sure
02:53
i guess we can't handle that in the xinitrc wrapper... as it's not going to pass the arguments to X
02:54
<alkisg>
In my local Ubuntu installation, my xorg command line is: /usr/bin/X :0 -auth /var/run/lightdm/root/:0 -nolisten tcp vt7 -novtswitch -background none
02:54
Which means that xserverrc isn't used there either
02:54
<vagrantc>
not following you there...
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02:55* vagrantc has no idea where xserverrc is used
02:55
<alkisg>
I mean that I think that /etc/X11/xinit/xserverrc is never used, it's not our fault that it's not executed
02:55
So we just need to conditionally pass -nolisten tcp from our own xinitrc
02:55
<vagrantc>
alkisg: but you just told me something is using -nolisten tcp on your local install
02:55
<alkisg>
Right, so probably lightdm does that
02:56
./screen.d/ldm:exec xinit $xinitrc /usr/sbin/ldm -- ${DISPLAY} vt${TTY} -auth ${XAUTHORITY} ${X_ARGS} -br >/dev/null 2>&1
02:57
That "exec" line needs to be inside an "if"
02:57
If LDM_DIRECTX is True, don't add -nolisten tcp
02:57
Add -nolisten tcp all the other times, either in kiosk, or in rdesktop, or in fat clients etc
02:57
<vagrantc>
or just add it to X_ARGS ?
02:58
<alkisg>
From screen-x-common, sounds good
02:58
<vagrantc>
remote or local apps have any issues
02:59
<alkisg>
local apps => why?
02:59
remote apps => should use the same method as LDM_DIRECTX, so the ssh tunnel when it's false
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03:03
<vagrantc>
just the cases i thought of that might have issues
03:03
but seems fine
03:06
hah. get_xfs_settings
03:06
alkisg: LDM with DIRECT_X=true is the only place where that's needed, right?
03:07
<alkisg>
I think so, yeah - but I'm not sure that currently remoteapps are using the ssh tunnel
03:08
<vagrantc>
we could set a default variable and then unset it in that case
03:08
remoteapps use the ssh tunnel
03:08
<alkisg>
*the only place that it's NOT needed (the -nolisten tcp)
03:09
<vagrantc>
so i'm thinking of setting a new variable, that defaults to "-nolisten tcp", and unsettng it in the ldm screen script when LDM_DIRECTX=true
03:10
because you could have a setup with LDM_DIRECTX=true with SCREEN_07=ldm and SCREEN_08=rdesktop
03:10
<alkisg>
Why use a variable instead of X_ARGS directly?
03:11
Hmm...
03:12
<vagrantc>
because it's easier to unset a variable that doesn't have other variables in it
03:12
other values in it
03:12
<alkisg>
(sorry I wrote before reading, ok...)
03:12
<vagrantc>
i.e. -depth $X_COLOR_DEPTH and -config $X_CONF
03:12
thanks for bringing it up ... it left me unsettled
03:13
or we hard-code it in all the others, and conditionally enable it in ldm screen script
03:13
that would be simple, too.
03:14
i think i'm inclined towards that, really.
03:15
except we have to hard-code it in multiple places...
03:15
<alkisg>
Yes the downside is a commit with multiple files changed
03:16
We *can* strip "-nolisten tcp" from X_ARGS in ldm when needed, it's just a bit more ugly
03:16
It's a smaller .diff though
03:19
<vagrantc>
i think xdmcp needs to leave it out
03:20
we should probably drop support for the old compatibility without the xinit stuff
03:21
er, /usr/share/ltsp/xinitrc
03:21* alkisg doesn't remember what "startx" is for...
03:21
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i renamed startx to xdmcp
03:21
<alkisg>
Whoops sorry didn't see that it's a symlink
03:21
<vagrantc>
yeah
03:22
<alkisg>
OK that's a much smaller diff then
03:22
We only need to put that in xterm, xfreerdp, kiosk, and ldm?
03:23
<vagrantc>
that's my guess
03:23
<alkisg>
...hardcoding sounds fine... :)
03:24
Dropping the "if [ -x /usr/share/ltsp/xinitrc ]; then" sounds good too
03:25
<vagrantc>
maybe we should do that first.
03:39* vagrantc pushes in ltsp
03:54* vagrantc pushes to ldm
04:08
<alkisg>
Nice!
04:10
vagrantc: don't we also need an "if LDM_DIRECTX=True" ?
04:11
if ! boolean_is_true "$LTSP_FATCLIENT" ; then
04:11
==>
04:11
if ! boolean_is_true "$LDM_DIRECTX"; then
04:13
With a sidenote that, if LTSP_FATCLIENT=True, and LDM_DIRECTX=True, that means that remoteapps won't use the ssh tunnel
04:18
bbiab...
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06:48
<det_>
ltsp` , a few days ago you sad: "If you changed your LTSP server IP on Ubuntu, your clients will be unable to login. To fix this, you need to run: sudo ltsp-update-sshkeys && sudo ltsp-update-image" I don't understand what should i do. I've executed update sshkeys after i moved i386.img file with linux mint to ubuntu's lts server. Then i've made image update, but (hah) it just recreated old ltsp system image.
06:51
I will repeat: 2 servers, 1 main ltsp with ubuntu, 2 - testing server with mint on ltsp. I want to use mint image for users (in chroot), but i can't reinstall main system from ubuntu to mint.
06:51
So i've copied mint image to ubuntu's ltsp, but users can't login.
06:54
I did even more. I've made a tar archive of whole mint's chroot system, moved it to main ltsp server, and when i try #ltsp-update-sshkeys -b /opt/ltsp/mint && ltsp-update-image -b /opt/ltsp/mint
06:54
It says : No LTSP chroots found, please run ltsp-build-client
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10:44
<hlavender>
Has anyone thought about setting up a subreddit for LTSP?
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12:49* bennabiy has nothin to do with reddit, and would not visit it for anything
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14:27
<ajbotani>
Good Morning! How do I solve the problem with PAE enabled kernel? My Thin Client is a little old.
14:28
<alkisg>
Install the debian 486 kernel in the chroot
14:29
<ajbotani>
How to proceed, can you help me with a step by step?
14:30
<alkisg>
Sorry, no time to help step by step on how to install a debian package
14:30
https://packages.debian.org/wheezy/linux-image-3.2.0-4-486
14:32
<ajbotani>
seria com o comando sudo ltsp-build-client --arch i486
14:32
would be with the command sudo ltsp-build-client --arch i486
14:33
<alkisg>
No, with chroot and wget and apt-get install
14:34
<ajbotani>
Got it, thanks!
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17:03
<hurin>
hello
17:04
is there a soft client to connect a virtual desktop?
17:04
<alkisg>
You mean e.g. a virtual thin client that runs inside virtualbox or kvm?
17:04
<hurin>
like, if my users have Windows PCs but they need access to their Linux Desktop, can they connect using a program?
17:05
<alkisg>
x2go
17:06
<hurin>
asesome, thank you, I will dig into that
17:06
<championofcyrodi>
the new NoMachine 4.0 client will work well
17:06
has collaboration features and stuff too
17:06
you'd just need to install it on the linux desktops as well
17:06
<hurin>
nomachine connects flawlessly, but only one user at a time
17:07
<alkisg>
championofcyrodi: what does that need on the server part?
17:07
<hurin>
nomachine 4 works as server and client
17:07
the same piece is installed on both ends
17:07
but only 1 user at a time
17:07
in my scenario, several users of a Linux desktop need remote access
17:07
<championofcyrodi>
another instance of nomachine. when they went to version 4, the got rid of the open NX protocol and started their own NX protocol using port 4000
17:08
instead of SSH
17:08
<hurin>
just as Remote DEsktop Protocol does for Windows to WIndows
17:08
<championofcyrodi>
i think they actually just call the protocol "NX"
17:08
<alkisg>
Ah like teamviewer, yes that doesn't help multiple users that want remote access to the same server
17:08
x2go is the best I've found for that so far
17:08
<championofcyrodi>
i remember seeing multiple 'sessions' started and being able to connect to those sessions with nomachine.
17:09
<alkisg>
VNC can be used too but with no benefit over x2go, it's worse
17:10
<hurin>
@championofcyrodi nomachine used to work for me at one time, now I can't use it to connect a nomachine 3 or 4 client
17:11
<championofcyrodi>
right... they dont support NX over SSH anymore.
17:11
https://www.nomachine.com/AR10K00728
17:11
unless of course, you buy their enterprise version
17:12
like 'Workstation, Terminal Serer, Cloud Server, etc...'
17:13
<hurin>
so version 4 works very well but only 1 user at a time
17:13
will check if x2go does the trick
17:13
<championofcyrodi>
you can still find version 3.5 here http://www2.vrdc.cornell.edu/news/ecco/step-4-using-ecco/nx-client-3-5/
17:13
<hurin>
I can't believe there isn't a good solution for this on Linux Desktops x(
17:13
have you people ever felt the need for such a software?
17:14* alkisg is using x2go regularly, it's fine
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17:15
<championofcyrodi>
there is a solution x2go, nomachine, rdesktop, and plain jane X11 forwarding.
17:15
but honestly, most of us probably just use SSH/console/vi/vim/nano
17:15
tmux
17:16
even IRC has console based chat clients
17:16
<hurin>
mmm, I wouldn't call them solutions. I have found all of those options complex, incompatible, limited and hard to configure. Would you agree?
17:16
<championofcyrodi>
yes. I would agree that you have found all those options to be complex, incompatible, etc..
17:16
<hurin>
hehehe
17:17
but they are, objectively
17:17
<championofcyrodi>
what are your windows users doing on linux?
17:17
<hurin>
well
17:17
<championofcyrodi>
when i had Windows workstation in the past, i got all done with Xming & PuTTY
17:17
<hurin>
those are linux jump-boxes
17:17
<championofcyrodi>
jump-boxes?
17:18
<hurin>
they have a differnt network connection that allows access to a cloud with lab servers
17:18
not much I can do to change that part....
17:19
<championofcyrodi>
so a 'jump-box' is a workstation with a network connection to a cloud?
17:19
<hurin>
but I can implement linux machines, IF I can solve the remote desktop dilema
17:19
yes
17:19
<championofcyrodi>
you can run linux applications with X11 forwarding over SSH.
17:19
on the windows workstation just install xming
17:19
and download putty.exe
17:20
then when you run putty, enable x11 forwarding. then connect with SSH like normal.
17:20
then when you run gui applications like 'xclock' it will show up on windows
17:20
<hurin>
I agree. xming does the trick up to some point. One of my friends set it up and he was able to grab the entire desktop
17:20
<championofcyrodi>
yes you can also try to run the desktop session
17:20
but it does not always integrate well
17:20
which is why usually you just run the applications
17:21
like $ gedit &
17:21
<hurin>
thing is, users have to deal with Putty, and they require it to be a dummy proof solution
17:21
<championofcyrodi>
putty allows you to save configurations for connection... not much more dummy proof you can get besides clicking 'connect'
17:22
if they can't do that... they may need to be taking a pre-requisite course before using your workstations.
17:22
#training
17:22
<hurin>
I have played with the idea of building a qt based project to provide a turnkey client solution (qt client + ssh + xming or something)
17:22
<championofcyrodi>
seems like overkill
17:23
i'm sure putty takes arguments. you could make a BATCH file that runs it all
17:23
(since it's windows)
17:23
<hurin>
hehe yup
17:23
humor me for a second on this thought
17:25
windows has a simple click to open technology called RDP. Users only put their user/password and are able to obtain their entire desktop experience as if the were sitting in front of their PC. One single application hidding any possible complexity behind it (protocols, security, media, clipboard, copy/paste, so on)
17:25
why isn't there a similar "solution" for linux environments??
17:26
oh! and there is the multi user capability as well.
17:26
<Hyperbyte>
hurin, you mean something like X2Go?
17:27
<championofcyrodi>
hurin: i understand your frustration. x2go is what you need to use. but no, it's not going to be as easy as windows native remote desktop.
17:27
to configure
17:28
especially since you will be using windows as a client and linux as a server
17:28
<hurin>
yeah I guess x2go can do this http://askubuntu.com/questions/247115/remote-desktop-for-multiple-users
17:28
<championofcyrodi>
again, i use free-nx and nomachine 3.5 to do windows->linux
17:28
but there are a lot of options
17:28
x2go seems to be the latest and greatest though
17:28
<hurin>
really!!!?? you still use nomachine 3.5??
17:28
<championofcyrodi>
so you should use that
17:29
<hurin>
have you tried kde desktops??
17:29
<championofcyrodi>
for windows -> linux
17:29
yes
17:29
i have tried kde
17:29
<hurin>
dude, I would love to know how
17:29
<championofcyrodi>
i don't use kde
17:29
<Hyperbyte>
hurin, yes, X2Go can do that.
17:30
<championofcyrodi>
i use xfce4 for nomachine 3.5
17:30
using CUSTOM startup script /usr/bin/startxfce4
17:30
which gives me the entire XFCE desktop. being a lightweight desktop i find it works well for remote sessions.
17:30
but on the actual workstation i use unity
17:31
which i guess is using LDM now
17:31
actually i'm sure it is... since i have custom configurations for greeting screen
17:31
<hurin>
I have tried the trusty repositories from here https://launchpad.net/~freenx-team/+archive/ubuntu/trusty
17:32
and windows client 3.5, I see the authentication succeed, then a black screen, then it drops....
17:32
<championofcyrodi>
it's because your trying to connect with gnome which has a bug supporting 2D desktops..
17:32
because the NX client fails the 3D accel check...
17:32
one sec.
17:32
and you'll see an error about 'the fail whale is dead!'
17:33
which is why i love free software.
17:33
(sarcasm)
17:34
so to get windows nomachine to freenx w/o blank screen...
17:34
on the linux box: #First install Xubuntu
17:34
apt-get install -y xubuntu-desktop
17:35
apt-add-repository ppa:freenx-team -y
17:35
apt-get update
17:35
apt-get install -y freenx-server
17:35
then for your desktop session when connecting from windows with nomachine... use the command 'startxfce4'
17:36
It's where you normally see "GNOME", "KDE", "XFCE", "CUSTOM" you'll want to choose custom.
17:36
<hurin>
got it. I will try that tonight
17:36
so kde is not an option
17:37
at least with nomachine
17:38
Hyperbite, do you know if x2go supports kde_?
17:39
thank you very much championofcyrodi
17:40
<championofcyrodi>
p
17:40
np
17:41
<hurin>
wooow
17:41
x2go supports kde! http://wiki.x2go.org/lib/exe/fetch.php/doc:x2go1.png
17:41
<Hyperbyte>
duh.
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18:04
<||cw>
hurin: kde runs on X, so yeah...
18:06
ubuntu's unity is the only one that's dumb
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18:50
<hurin>
lol, ok, I won't be using dumb for sure
18:50
i jumped to kde since ubuntu 10.10
18:50
<vagrantc>
alkisg: what was that comment you had about something missing from my last commits?
18:51
"< alkisg> vagrantc: don't we also need an "if LDM_DIRECTX=True" ?"
18:52
alkisg: i put code in the ldm screen script for that, where were you thinking?
18:52
+if ! boolean_is_true "$LTSP_FATCLIENT" ; then
18:52
+ X_ARGS="-nolisten tcp $X_ARGS"
18:53
and "< alkisg> if ! boolean_is_true "$LTSP_FATCLIENT" ; then"
18:53
ah.
18:53
i did it wrong.
18:53
alkisg: thanks again
18:54
i suppose -nolisten tcp makes sense for fatclients as well
18:55* vagrantc tests
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19:05
<alkisg>
vagrantc: right, I meant that we shouldn't test for thin/fat at all, just for ldm_directx
19:06
-nolisten tcp for fats should be the default, right, no need to special-case it
19:07
<vagrantc>
i typoed the first one
19:07
well, mentally typoed
19:08
i think LTSP_FATCLIENT will actually need special casing as well, though
19:08
since the default for ldm is to not have "-nolisten tcp"
19:08
<alkisg>
The default for ldm should be -nolisten tcp,
19:09
and it should be removed when LDM_DIRECTX=True
19:09
What else is needed there?
19:09
No mention of thin/fats at all, no special casing
19:10
<vagrantc>
it's easier to add it than remove it
19:10
<alkisg>
Specifically, you only need to change one word in your commit
19:10
boolean_is_true $LTSP_FATCLIENT ==> boolean_is_true $LDM_DIRECTX
19:10
<vagrantc>
yes, but that will leave it for LTSP_FATCLIENT, which it shouldn't.
19:11
so yes, i committed the wrong code.
19:11
<alkisg>
Meh bzr says service unavailable... can't see the diff online... pulling...
19:12
(10:10:57 μμ) vagrantc: yes, but that will leave it for LTSP_FATCLIENT, which it shouldn't. ==> I don't think that's true
19:12
Let's sum up with a table:
19:13
FAT? no. DIRECTX? no ==> -nolisten
19:13
FAT? yes. DIRECTX? no ==> -nolisten
19:13
FAT? no. DIRECTX? yes ==> listen
19:13
FAT? yes. DIRECTX? yes ==> listen
19:13
So "listen" is the same as "directx"
19:13
It doesn't depend on thin/fat
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19:15
<vagrantc>
ah, FAT with DIRECTX would be fore remoteapps without ssh...
19:15
<alkisg>
Yup
19:15
For faster remoteapps
19:16
So when I'm saying "LDM_DIRECTX=True", I'm declaring that I prefer speed over security for both my thin and fat clients (remoteapps)
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19:18
<vagrantc>
ok, so it really is just a typo, not needing to get into more complicated stuff.
19:19
<alkisg>
Only 1 word needs to be changed, yup
19:19
<vagrantc>
for a strict fat client, specifying DIRECT_X won't make any difference, only when you get into localapps
19:19
er, remoteapps
19:20
<alkisg>
It will make it more secure
19:20
No ports open
19:20
<vagrantc>
sure
19:20
<alkisg>
Nothing else, yeah
19:20
<vagrantc>
wish i hadn't botched that commit, thanks for catching it!
19:21
and i used the correct variable in the commit log, just not the code, which makes it extra confusing
19:21
<alkisg>
I'm just worried if all this will work as it is, or if we need to fix a few things in remote/localapps
19:21
It will need some testing...
19:21
vagrantc: I think you can lower your standards and uncommit :D
19:21
Noone will notice!
19:21
<vagrantc>
and i botched my commit message for the fix, thankfully i'm not able to push!
19:22
alkisg: i've tried localapps on a thin client, and remoteapps with a fat client ...
19:22
haven't tried kiosk or xterm or xfreerdp, though
19:22
<alkisg>
With both directx=true/false?
19:23
<vagrantc>
i think so...
19:23
<alkisg>
Cool :)
19:23
<vagrantc>
because localapps runs on the local hardware, it doesn't connect via tcp
19:23* vagrantc will test a few more times to be sure
19:24
<alkisg>
I haven't looked at the code recently, but I was under the impression that remoteapps weren't using the ssh tunnel even with the default LDM_DIRECTX=False
19:24
So I was expecting they'd work, but not as "expected"
19:24* alkisg checks...
19:30
<alkisg>
Hmm no I can't find anything wrong, I don't know what I was thinking
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19:45
<vagrantc>
alkisg: yup, works with the four scenarios you outlined above
19:45
<alkisg>
Cool! :)
19:46
<vagrantc>
now to test the other variants
19:47
which means i actually need to test the screen scripts mentioned.... heh.
19:47
been a long time since i tested the rdp support
19:47
<alkisg>
Haha, I think that's outside the scope of "commit testing" :)
19:48
You'll end up rewritting the kiosk plugin once more :P
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19:49
<vagrantc>
hah!
19:49
i've actually been using ltsp with kiosk mode with my raspberry pi
19:50
it's my only real-world ltsp useage at the moment
19:50
so the kiosk script should've give me any surprises...
19:50
i.e. i've been testing it lately
19:51
<alkisg>
Surfing with a pi... ouch?
19:51
Isn't that too slow?
19:51
Ah you have javascript disabled etc... might be light enough that way
19:51
<vagrantc>
i just use it to play music off of libre.fm
19:52
disabled some browser features
19:52
but overall, it's useable.
19:52
it's actually one of the 256MB ram pi boards, too
19:52
no swap ...
19:52
ut single webpage streaming multimedia via html5
19:53
useable ... once in a while it stutters for a bit
19:53
<alkisg>
Libre music! Love it! :)
19:53* alkisg wants to upload something there.. sometime...
19:54
<vagrantc>
oooh!
19:54
ok, i've tested everything but xfreerdp
19:57
apt get install xrdp ...
19:59
hrm. well, xfreerdp doesn't seem to work with the defaults...
20:02
but it works when specifying RDP_SERVER=server and RDP_OPTS=-f
20:03
so the -nolisten tcp seems to work.
20:03
<alkisg>
"xfreerdp server -f" ?
20:03
I don't think we default to "server"...
20:04
<vagrantc>
it's got some defaults if no arguments are passed that don't seem to kick in
20:07
if [ $# -eq 0 ]; then RDP_OPTIONS=${RDP_OPTIONS:--f -u ''} RDP_SERVER=${RDP_SERVER:-server}
20:11
but it doesn't seem to work
20:12
<alkisg>
vagrantc: try: RDP_OPTIONS=${RDP_OPTIONS:-"-f -u ''"}
20:12
If it works commit it, it seems like a bug to me
20:13
<vagrantc>
alkisg: $# is returning 1 when $@ is apparently empty
20:15
probably whitespace or something
20:15
huh.
20:15
not that...
20:16
<alkisg>
vagrantc: can you hexdump /proc/pidofxfreerdp/cmdine ?
20:16
<vagrantc>
it's in the screen script, not in freerdp
20:17
<alkisg>
"$script_path" "$args"
20:17
<vagrantc>
maybe it's being passed a null argument
20:18
<alkisg>
We're not allowing for empty $args there...
20:18
<vagrantc>
test -z "$@" ... wouldn't catch ' ' as an arg...
20:18
<alkisg>
"$*"
20:20
But it still needs to be fixed properly for empty args in the future...
20:20
<vagrantc>
the future where we're on ltsp 5.10564 in 2056?
20:20
<alkisg>
:D
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20:23
<vagrantc>
ok, so the -u '' is not getting rendered correctly
20:23
but leaving out "-u ''" works at least with xrdp
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20:26
<vagrantc>
if [ -z "$*" ]; then RDP_OPTIONS=${RDP_OPTIONS:-"-f -u ''"} RDP_SERVER=${RDP_SERVER:-"server"}
20:26
that worked for me.
20:27* vagrantc seems to recall some history with this stuff being reverted and unreverted and reapplied numerous times...
20:27
<alkisg>
Nah I think that was before I rewrote it...
20:27
It should be fine as you said above ^
20:28
<vagrantc>
if "$*" evaluates to " " then there's an issue ...
20:28
<alkisg>
That means that someone ran xfreerdp " "
20:28
<vagrantc>
seems unlikely.
20:29
<alkisg>
or, in lts.conf, SCREEN_07=xfreerdp ' '
20:29
So yeah we shouldn't care about that...
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20:31* alkisg waves
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20:31
<vagrantc>
alkisg: thanks again!
20:33
of course, seems like rdp support may be broken in ldm
20:34
or maybe it just requires RDP_SERVER and RDP_OPTIONS
20:39
ah, it just hard-codes rdesktop rather than xfreerdp
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22:00
<vagrantc>
stgraber: so, i noticed that the rdesktop plugin, unsurprisingly hard-codes rdesktop, though dropping in xfreerdp instead works fine...
22:00
the default dependencies in ltsp pull in xfreerdp these days, so it might make sense to rework that to allow either, just like the screen scripts?
22:01
i've got a patch that allows setting it from an environment variable, but it doesn't work if the var isn't set
22:02
http://paste.debian.net/120472/
22:03
might be better to check for the presence of the binaries and fallback
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