IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 28 March 2008   (all times are UTC)

00:00
<dberkholz>
johnny: git
00:00
<johnny>
uggh.. the evil git
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00:00
<johnny>
i do have it installed tho
00:01
<dberkholz>
johnny: drop me an email with a dsa ssh key attached, and we'll begin getting you set up
00:01
<johnny>
ok
00:01
will do that in a few
00:01
<dberkholz>
i need to fwd that on to the overlays admins, and then they'll have to get you set up with an account
00:02
<johnny>
aha.. so.. the waiting game again
00:02
guess i should sent it to you earlier if you needed it
00:02
<dberkholz>
they're usually pretty decent about it
00:02
well i didn't get the overlay till a couple days ago
00:03
<johnny>
now that i stepped away from ltsp for a bit, i'm sure i'll be a bit clearer now
00:03
just need to get the initramfs setup, and then do the init scripts
00:03
after that, should be pretty close to booting it
00:03
booting it properly that is
00:04
i have it booting now, it just needs the unionfs or aufs stuff
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00:07
<johnny>
dberkholz, want me to send to your gentoo address then?
00:08
<dberkholz>
johnny: yes please
00:08
<vagrantc>
you don't need to implement unionfs/aufs ...
00:08
at least, for the most simple case.
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00:29
<johnny>
you mean nfsroot?
00:29
or?
00:31
i tend to work on part of a project until i get stuck, and then i step away from that part and move onto something else for a lil while
00:31
and then return to it later
00:38
<vagrantc>
johnny: you can use tmpfs bind mounts with any root filesystem
00:38
johnny: i.e. i've been using it with NBD+ext2+tmpfs bind mounts
00:38
because squashfs and unionfs have been so unstable in debian
00:39
haven't tried aufs yet
00:39
<johnny>
unionfs has a problem for me
00:39
in any case
00:39
it's not available except as a kernel patch anymore
00:39
it's in mm, but won't be merged into 2.6.25
00:40
aufs can still be compiled as an external module
00:40
<vagrantc>
well, if you just want to get ltsp working, it would be easy to not use unionfs
00:40
or any union sort of filesystem
00:40
that's the point i'm making :)
00:40
<johnny>
sure
00:40
i think i need a bit of advice on that in any case
00:40
<vagrantc>
and i should instead be sleeping.
00:40
<johnny>
oh :(
00:41
<vagrantc>
johnny: there's some simple code in client/initscripts/ltsp-setup ...
00:51
<dberkholz>
johnny: you weren't around when i mentioned this last, i think, but other option is fuse unionfs
00:51
<johnny>
i was , and i was thinking about it
00:51
wasn't sure if it was any good after reading the pages
00:51
i found funionfs and unionfs-fuse
00:52
sothere are two fuse unionfs implmentations
00:52
<dberkholz>
pick the one other people use
00:52
unionfs-fuse sounds familiar
00:52
<johnny>
looks like neither :)
00:53
i don't know anybody personally using either one of those two
00:53
i'm going to look into their mailing lists next
00:53
i was investigating this before i left town on monday
00:55
<dberkholz>
ah, the unionfs-fuse guy is a gentoo user
00:56
i knew his name sounded familiar
00:56
<johnny>
i tried to get online when i was at the hotel.. it was nonsense tho:(
00:56
<dberkholz>
so you could probably get good support =)
00:56
<johnny>
i'm going to go with vagrantc's suggestion for the moment
00:56
we can investigate that later
00:56
i'm going to clean up the initscript to be more gentooish
00:57
<dberkholz>
johnny: sounds nice. vagrantc's mentioned some ideas of making it plugin-based like the client builder
00:57
<cyberorg>
any kind of unionfs is out, as no distro kernel maintainers are happy about them
00:57
<dberkholz>
johnny: so if it looks like almost everything is the same, then we could look into just maintaining differences rather than a whole separate script where we need to refix the same bugs
00:58
<johnny>
i agree dberkholz
00:58
<dberkholz>
johnny: so i'd try to hold off on too much gentooifying, just the minimum necessary
00:59
<johnny>
shouldn't be much work
01:00
<dberkholz>
johnny: not in the interests of work, in the interests of merging things together later
01:00
<johnny>
i mean to make it work at all
01:00
<dberkholz>
oh, alright
01:04
<vagrantc>
warren split out a bunch of functions ... so hopefully you can just whip together a gentoo-like init script that calls the appropriate functions ...
01:04
<dberkholz>
vagrantc: nifty.
01:04
<vagrantc>
although i'd hesitate to do a plugin-based system for initscripts, since that's a bit filesystem intensive
01:04
<dberkholz>
about the only significant difference should be how dependencies are specified
01:04
vagrantc: sure ,if it's just one file ltsp/plugins.sh or whatever ,that's fine too
01:05
man i suck at putting commas before spaces
01:06
<vagrantc>
although, only one of the two init scripts used by debian actually has functions split out ...
01:10
<johnny>
which ones do you use?
01:11
<vagrantc>
both
01:11
client/initscripts/ltsp-core and client/initscripts/ltsp-setup
01:11
one does the configuration stuff, one actually starts the sessions and things
01:11
oh yeah, sleep.
01:12
i'd best be out of here :)
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03:05
<Pascal_1>
salut
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03:26
<daduke>
Pascal_1: bonjour
03:27
<Pascal_1>
bonjour !! ;-)
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06:03
<Pascal_1>
klausade, ?? have you got some news about my problem ?
06:04
did you test my chroot ?
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07:20
<cliebow>
botnet takes advantages of holes in Windows operating systems -- pretty much every version of Windows, excluding Windows Server 2003.
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08:07
<gvy>
cliebow, looks like a boring headline :)
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08:08
<cliebow>
heh..botnet is not unlike skynet..soon it will become self aware..I"LL BE BACK..
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08:11
<t-kid>
helow
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08:21
<score>
hi, i'm running gutsy's ltsp packages. it seems like over time, i've ended up with nbdrootd and nbd-server processes running when i only have around 60 thin clients. any idea whether this is a bug or normal?
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08:31
<laga>
score: i dont see what's wrong with thatr
08:33
<score>
sorry, i guess i left out the number of processes .. 400
08:35
<laga>
score: ok, that's quite a lot.. you should talk to ogra_cmpc
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08:38
<ogra_cmpc>
score, grep nbd /etc/hosts.allow
08:38
does that return anything ?
08:38
<gvy>
ogra_cmpc, ! :)
08:38
<ogra_cmpc>
hey
08:39
<score>
ogram_cmpc: nbdrootd: ALL: keepalive
08:39
<ogra_cmpc>
good
08:39
it should clean up the stale nbdroot processes within 10h or so usually
08:39
<score>
ogra_cmpc: these have been running since march 10th
08:39
<ogra_cmpc>
not sure ehat tcpd uses as default atm
08:40
thats strange
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08:40
<ogra_cmpc>
it definately cleans up here
08:41
<score>
ogra_cmpc: is there a way i can distinguish which are actually in use?
08:42
<ogra_cmpc>
probably with a netstat command or so, sorry i'm extremly busy with work atm
08:45
<score>
ogra_cmpc: that's fine. running netstat and sorting the results shows that there are a few conections on 2000 from the same ips.
08:45
i see one that has 7.. seems bad
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08:54
<cliebow>
dtrask: know od=f anything entry level for a 22 year old?
08:58
<dtrask>
cliebow: od=f?
08:58
wazzat?
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09:05
<cliebow>
/od=f/of
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09:20
<cliebow>
!v
09:20
<ltspbot>
cliebow: Error: "v" is not a valid command.
09:21
<gvy>
vagrantc, ! :)
09:22
<dtrask>
cliebow: in terms of what? Entry level what? OS computer...????
09:22
<gvy>
vagrantc, any spare time at hand?
09:22
<dtrask>
cliebow: not sure I understand the question
09:22
<cliebow>
entry level it
09:23
<dtrask>
cliebow: position?
09:23
<cliebow>
oh..help desk or something?
09:23
this kid has been through smtc..knows some php..
09:23
<dtrask>
yeah...or school tech
09:23
<cliebow>
sure..
09:24
<vagrantc>
gvy: probably shouldn't get too involved in things at the moment...
09:24
<cliebow>
slackware
09:24
<dtrask>
a school district tech would be a good place to start....great "school of hard knocks" place to get some good exposure
09:24
<cliebow>
thought you might have heard something through the grapevine
09:24
<dtrask>
not yet, but will keep ears open....also check servingschools.com
09:25
<cliebow>
yep..had him do that..
09:25
thanks
09:25
<dtrask>
it's the Maine database for school jobs....including technicians...I think I saw some posted last week
09:25
np welcome
09:26
<gvy>
vagrantc, well, if you decide to look over led's branch, it's at r702 branched off 674.1.7 (tagged as 5.1.1)
09:27
vagrantc, led says he's going to maintain a patch to get working package since startx (around xfs/nc) is too broken for him to work around
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09:27
<vagrantc>
gvy: startx was renamed to xdmcp ...
09:27
<gvy>
vagrantc, er, screen-x-common
09:27
<vagrantc>
too broken to work around?
09:28
<gvy>
yup
09:28
<vagrantc>
gvy: i'd be curious to hear more than "it's broken"
09:28
gvy: and why doesn't led communicate directly?
09:28
<gvy>
sleeping 5s for each probed xfs (both listening or not) is rather broken :(
09:28
<vagrantc>
communicating by proxy seems awkward...
09:28
<gvy>
vagrantc, his english is rather read-only i guess
09:29
vagrantc, yup :( imagine how the proxy "likes" that
09:29
vagrantc, so he prefers patches/commits :)
09:29
<vagrantc>
gvy: the xfs code is likely to be removed entirely, and isn't enabled by default
09:29
<gvy>
"to work around": with variable settings
09:29
<ogra_cmpc>
using xfs nowadays is a huge waste, font rendering is done client side for 90% of the apps nowadays
09:30
<gvy>
vagrantc, well, we will check if anything breaks without it (xfs being deprecated anyways), but not yet
09:30
ogra_cmpc, yup
09:30
the problem's 10%
09:30
vagrantc, er, more precisely it's netcat acting weirdly to me
09:30
<ogra_cmpc>
fix the 10% then :) file upstream bugs
09:30
<gvy>
but then brokennes is using netcat. :)
09:31
ogra_cmpc, i've recently contacted pdksh upstream :)
09:31
<ogra_cmpc>
:)
09:31
<gvy>
a month's turnaround, and "thanks for patches, maybe will hand some day to someone"
09:31
<ogra_cmpc>
there are various implementations of netcat
09:31
<gvy>
patches over 5 years or so. :)
09:31
<ogra_cmpc>
did you try if a different one works better ?
09:31
<gvy>
ogra_cmpc, ah, forgot that -- thanks, will try another
09:31
<vagrantc>
gvy: if it's the timeout
09:32
gvy: i'd consider lowering the default timeout ...
09:32
<gvy>
vagrantc, or that :)
09:32
<vagrantc>
gvy: if you're using XFS, though, i'd recommend just setting XFS_SERVER and be done with it
09:32* ogra_cmpc wonders what nc is used for in the xdmcp script
09:32
<gvy>
vagrantc, thanks, passing things thaaaaat way....
09:33
seems like bsd netcat here
09:33
<vagrantc>
ogra_cmpc: if USE_XFS=True, and XFS_SERVER isn't set, it looks for XFS running on each of your possible login servers.
09:33
<ogra_cmpc>
i know we use it in ldm to get the data from ldminfod ... i wasnt aware xdmcp doe use it for anything
09:33
ah
09:34
<vagrantc>
so i guess we should set the timeout to 1 second, and encourage people just to set XFS_SERVER if they're actually using XFS.
09:34
if that 1 second delay per server is too much
09:34* ogra_cmpc curses intel for hardwiring hotkeys in bios ...
09:34
<ogra_cmpc>
*sigh*
09:34
<gvy>
vagrantc, then they should care themselves, yup
09:34
<ogra_cmpc>
life could be so easy without silly manufacturer ideas
09:34
<vagrantc>
and like ogra_cmpc says, xfs is basically deprecated
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09:34
<gvy>
ogra_cmpc, adding that to acpi and ipmi cursery upon them? :)
09:35
vagrantc, yeah
09:35
<ogra_cmpc>
no acpi events from hardwired keys
09:35
neither a way to send any
09:35
<Blinny>
ogra_cmpc: dell put a button on the latest batch of laptops we ordered that boots to a separate partition. It's not in the boot order, completely bypasses any boot order directives in the BIOS..
09:36
<vagrantc>
gvy: could you register your branch with launchpad to be mirrored?
09:36
<ogra_cmpc>
Blinny, well, i could live with that ... for me the prob is that the display doesnt wake up properly without hitting the brightness up key after resume
09:36
<vagrantc>
gvy: it seems rather slow to pull
09:36
<ogra_cmpc>
which would be easy to solve if i had any handler to send an event to
09:36
<gvy>
vagrantc, how should i do that? (i'm registered with lp)
09:36
vagrantc, yeah, very slow but i don't know *why*
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09:37
<gvy>
you can test anything off that ftp, might be 100+kb/s to you
09:37
up to 1Mb/s
09:37
but not that dog slow
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09:37
<Blinny>
Bah. At least your computer turns on correctly. I've got people who press the power button that is right beside the real power button and then can't do any work. Oh, and it continues to boot into the 2nd partition every time you press the "real" power button, until you press the fake one again, at which point it boots the real partition.
09:37
<ogra_cmpc>
gvy, there is an "add branch" under cod on your personal LP page
09:37
<Blinny>
Since there's no way to disable it I put a little sticker with a 'X' over the button.
09:37
<ogra_cmpc>
*code
09:38
<gvy>
ogra_cmpc, thx
09:38
<vagrantc>
gvy: https://code.launchpad.net/~vagrantc/+addbranch
09:39
gvy: substituting vagrantc for your username, of course.
09:39
i've gotta ignore irc for a while.
09:40* ogra_cmpc crawls back into his hole again as well
09:41* gvy probably too to get something done
09:41
<cyberorg>
vagrantc, i didn't bzr push last commits, please check now :)
09:43
<klausade>
Pascal_1: sorry, been busy. I can tell you that my pam-scrip setup that does work fine with ltsp 5.0.8debian3 does not work with your chroot. well not realy fine, seems atm only onauth and onsessionopen works, not onsessionclose. wonder why onsessionclose doens't work.
09:43
<Pascal_1>
then same problem than me
09:43
what is your version of ltsp ?
09:44
and what depot you use ?
09:45
oups ltsp 5.0.8debian3
09:45
what is the way to install this version N
09:45
<klausade>
Pascal_1: does onauth and onsessionopen work for you?
09:45
<Pascal_1>
yes
09:45
only onclose
09:45
doesnt works
09:45
<klausade>
Pascal_1: ok.
09:45
don't use my version of ltsp, it's old.
09:45
<Pascal_1>
vagrantc, did you see that ?
09:45
there is a version wich works
09:46
<klausade>
Pascal_1: i'll be meeting vagrantc next week in spain :-)
09:46
<Pascal_1>
shake his hand for me
09:46
<ogra_cmpc>
you go to extremadura as well ?
09:46
<Pascal_1>
for his great patience about me
09:47
<klausade>
ogra_cmpc: yes.
09:47
<ogra_cmpc>
cool
09:47
<klausade>
ogra_cmpc: you?
09:47
<ogra_cmpc>
nah
09:47
trying to cut down travelling time atm
09:48
i'll be in prague end of april ... and likely in seville a month later
09:49
preparing a release until april 24th ... so no time to waste atm
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09:55
<daduke>
hey vagrantc and ogra_cmpc! I'm playing with debian-live now, for the LTSP USB stick, you might remember. I have something that's booting now, and I can start ldm by hand at least, but how does LTSP determine the terminal server to connect to?
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10:01
<vagrantc>
daduke: you'll have to set LDM_SERVER in /etc/lts.conf
10:02
daduke: normally, it defaults to detecting it based on your root filesystem ... but if your root filesystem is a CD or USB stick ... well, that just doesn't work :)
10:02
<daduke>
vagrantc: ah ok. is this sorta implicit for NFS boot? I don't have it in our main lts.conf
10:02
vagrantc: I see. thanks.
10:02
<vagrantc>
daduke: it's only needed if it can't detect it...
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10:03
<daduke>
vagrantc: lemme try then.
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10:04
<ogra_cmpc>
it grabs it from the dhsp data normally
10:04
*dhcp
10:04
in combination with the kind of chroot you use
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10:05
<daduke>
ogra_cmpc: all right. This obviously doesn't work for CD boot ;)
10:05
<ogra_cmpc>
your image will neither know anout nbd-server nor about rootserver for nfs
10:05
*about
10:05
<daduke>
right
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10:06
<ogra_cmpc>
even though, assuming you still use dhcp at some point to get an IP you could still abuse rootserver for it
10:07
<daduke>
ogra_cmpc: hmm maybe, but DHCP and ltsp are different servers in our case...
10:11
<gvy>
vagrantc, mirrored here: https://code.launchpad.net/~shigorin/ltsp/ltsp-altlinux
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10:12
<gvy>
ogra_cmpc, maybe using avahi for autodiscovery might be reasonable some day... at least that's what avahi maintainer suggested here. :)
10:12
<ogra_cmpc>
thats trivial
10:12
i have some code on an old used laptop somewhere
10:13* gvy didn't look into avahi yet, just heard a lot
10:13
<ogra_cmpc>
but only proof of concept for the python ldm
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10:26
<Pascal_1>
klausade, you didnt told me wich repository you use to install your version of ltsp ?
10:27
<klausade>
Pascal_1: from ltsp-backports, but that what last summer.
10:27
<Pascal_1>
arf ok
10:27
but i dont understand why it works with an old version
10:27
<vagrantc>
gvy, cyberorg: i probably won't have much time to review changes till april 1st
10:27
gvy: maybe as late as april 9th
10:28
<gvy>
vagrantc, np
10:29
<vagrantc>
cyberorg: i don't see why you fork 001-load-configuration-file ...
10:29
cyberorg: seems like the extra stuff you do could be done in an extra plugin.
10:30
<cyberorg>
vagrantc, ok, remove that
10:30
<vagrantc>
cyberorg: also, why leave commented code in 020-rootpath ?
10:31
<klausade>
Pascal_1: with the old version(ldm written in python) only onaouth and onsessionopen works. Not onsessionclose
10:31
<cyberorg>
vagrantc, i explained that, we dont want rootpath created, kiwi will not run if it exists
10:31
<ogra_cmpc>
Pascal_1, likely because klausade uses an ancient ldm version
10:31
<Pascal_1>
klausade, you told me that it worked for you ?
10:31
<cyberorg>
oh, you mean it should be removed
10:31
<vagrantc>
cyberorg: yes, but why not delete all the lines in *your* plougin that begin with #
10:31
<klausade>
ogra_cmpc: it was better before...
10:31
<ogra_cmpc>
before what ?
10:31
<Pascal_1>
klausade, no if onsession close doesnt works
10:31
<klausade>
ogra_cmpc: before computers
10:32
<ogra_cmpc>
heh
10:32
<vagrantc>
cyberorg: the original is in the common plugin if you need to diff
10:32
<Pascal_1>
klausade, i understood that you make it works with your version
10:32
<klausade>
Pascal_1: i thouht it used to work onsessionclose also. Now I'm not sure. But, I'm testing now.
10:32
<Pascal_1>
;-)
10:33
<cyberorg>
vagrantc, revision 689
10:33
<Pascal_1>
anyway vagrantc told me that he confirmed that ldm doesnt speak to pam on logout
10:33
<vagrantc>
cyberorg: and then the ROOT=$LTSNFSPATH ... why not just use ROOT ?
10:34
<klausade>
Pascal_1: the funny thing is that onsessionclose works with cron:CRON[5356]: PAM-script: Command is: /etc/security/onsessionclose
10:34
<Pascal_1>
arf starnge
10:34
strange
10:34
<cyberorg>
vagrantc, we have two destination path NFSPATH and SQUASHPATH
10:34
<Pascal_1>
vagrantc, i forgot to ask you if the problem was the same with ubuntu
10:35
<vagrantc>
cyberorg: but basically, looks ready to merge.
10:35
<cyberorg>
but yes, i can name NFSPATH to ROOT in my scripts
10:36praveer_fedora has joined #ltsp
10:37
<cyberorg>
vagrantc, i'd leave it as it is currently, just to keep everything working
10:37
<vagrantc>
cyberorg: sure.
10:38
cyberorg: there was some other variable name change thing ... but maybe you fixed that up already?
10:38
<cyberorg>
vagrantc, yes, removed those plugins, will be using the ones in common
10:38
<vagrantc>
cyberorg: do you have commit access ?
10:39
<cyberorg>
vagrantc, nope
10:39
<vagrantc>
cyberorg: ok, i'll merge and push, then.
10:40
gvy: i think you have some more invasive changes ... ?
10:40
i.e. outside of just the plugin dir
10:40
<cyberorg>
vagrantc, none
10:40
one was Xsession path, don't know what was the outcome of that
10:40
<warren>
I think we can give them commit access after we are confident they know if changes could possibly break other distros.
10:41
<vagrantc>
cyberorg: i was talking to gvy
10:41
<warren>
Also they must know how not to push without renumbering the revision numbers
10:41
<cyberorg>
vagrantc, ah, just saw his name :)
10:41
<warren>
And if they are not sure if they will break another distro, ask on the list
10:41
<vagrantc>
warren: yes. although now that we've upgraded to pack-0.92 ... we *should* be able to set the append_revisions_only flag
10:42
<warren>
vagrantc, ah
10:42
<gvy>
warren, halo
10:42ogra_cmpc is now known as ogra
10:42
<vagrantc>
warren: need to test it, though.
10:42mccann has joined #ltsp
10:42
<warren>
if anyone is interested, I'm doing a k12linux devel meeting in #fedora-meeting in about 1 hour 20 minutes.
10:42
<gvy>
warren, i'm getting led subscribed to the list, currently he's not ready to push into trunk -- probably after the initial merge will be easier
10:43
that is, cleaning up bit by bit is easier than chunking around...
10:43
<vagrantc>
gvy: if we can get one branch per feature, that would make merging a *lot* easier.
10:44
unfortunately, bzr's cherry-picking isn't as good as i'd like. you can do it, but it doesn't keep track of the changes very well.
10:44
<gvy>
vagrantc, a minute...
10:45
<vagrantc>
unless that's been fixed recently ... but i somehow doubt it
10:46
<cyberorg>
seeing all this feedback i feel glad that rest of the civilized world uses git or svn
10:47
<vagrantc>
well, bzr is several orders of magnitude better than svn.
10:47
<ogra>
and its really a quaetion of how you organize your work if you get advantage of it
10:48
*question
10:48* ogra wonders if warren reads /msg
10:51
<vagrantc>
gvy: there's definitely some changes i would reject
10:51
<gvy>
vagrantc, could you mention the revisions?
10:51
<vagrantc>
gvy: the changes to client/update-kernels BOOTPROMPT_OPTS ...
10:51
gvy: i'm just looking at the whole diff at the moment.
10:51
<gvy>
ah
10:53
<vagrantc>
gvy: i like the use of /etc/ltsp_chroot to figure out the chroot information ...
10:53Blinny has quit IRC
10:53
<vagrantc>
i've been meaning to figure out a standardized way to do that for some time...
10:54
<ogra>
wasnt /etc/ltsp_chroot our standarized one ?
10:54
<vagrantc>
yes, but we've never used it
10:54
<ogra>
i do
10:54
at least in ltsp-client preinst
10:55
<vagrantc>
gvy: definitely don't like the changes to ltsp-common-functions ...
10:55
gvy: i refuse to use 0 and 1 as booleans in shell scripts, because the potential for confusion is *huge*
10:56* warren notes that other upstream developers may have additional requirements on top of what I said earlier.
10:56
<vagrantc>
gvy: and boolean_is_false could merely be a negation of boolean_is_true.
10:56
gvy: is_yes and is_no just seem pointless.
10:57
<warren>
mccann, ping
10:57
<mccann>
warren: hey
10:57
<vagrantc>
warren: regarding tagging versions, i think we should make a practice of the commit immediately after tagging a version to increment the version in release.conf ...
10:58
<warren>
mccann, we have a k12linux devel meetig in #fedora-meeting at 1PM if you are available. Part of it I will be talking about ldm's issues, including ConsoleKit.
10:58* vagrantc wishes ~ were universally recognized
10:58
<warren>
vagrantc, you mean before tagging?
10:58
vagrantc, oh I see, so the number of snapshots after is always higher
10:58
<vagrantc>
warren: well no, because once you've tagged it, it should start working on the snapshot ... yeah
10:59
<warren>
vagrantc, that might be a little confusing to see a checkin of a higher number after...
10:59
<vagrantc>
but there's no universal way to suggest snapshots ...
10:59
<warren>
vagrantc, none of the other upstreams do it this way that I know of
10:59
<gvy>
vagrantc, well you're not forced to use is_* or 0/1 :)
10:59
<ogra>
warren, i think th emobile team recently solved it for the startx script in ubuntu, i was planning to pull the same stuff into ldm here
10:59
<mccann>
warren: ok I can probably sit in for a bit
10:59
<vagrantc>
gvy: but there's *no* point to it.
10:59
<warren>
vagrantc, well, in the context of packages, you can stop doing ~. revision numbers denote changes on top of the version number.
10:59
<ogra>
(i havent looked how hackish that is though)
11:00
<warren>
ogra, using what?
11:00
<ogra>
Ck in ldm
11:00
<vagrantc>
gvy: if support for it is in the code, people may use it, and i object to allowing those changes.
11:00
<warren>
I mean, using what command?
11:00
mccann, I'll talk about ldm and ConsoleKit at the beginning of the meeting then
11:00
<gvy>
vagrantc, for us, there's no point in heaps of stuff in ltsp... [ -n "$(echo ... | grep ...)" ] is horrific as well
11:00
<warren>
mccann, and we can have minutes to post in public too.
11:00
<ogra>
warren, i'll have to dig that up, there was something they backported from the last CK upstream commits
11:00
some script to enable the session
11:01
<warren>
ogra, it is all within the startx script or requires external stuff?
11:01
<gvy>
vagrantc, and i can provide at least one case *for* using distinct tests for "true" and "false"
11:01
it's when you default to different things
11:01
basically "if yes, or otherwise..."
11:01
and "if no, or otherwise..."
11:02
my shell scripting experience had quite a few of such cases
11:02
<ogra>
warren, there was a script added to upstream CK that they call from startx now
11:02
<vagrantc>
gvy: it is possible, yes.
11:02
<warren>
mccann, any idea what ogra is talking about?
11:03
ogra, mccann is our CK maintainer.
11:03
<gvy>
vagrantc, and i don't mind if there's proper discussion and these are dropped with reworking the code to clean it up along the agreed boolean standard :)
11:03
<ogra>
i know :)
11:03
<vagrantc>
gvy: well, until we have that discussion, i reject the changes.
11:03
<mccann>
warren: yeah I mentioned it to you yesterday, ck-launch-session :)
11:03
<gvy>
but frankly, i'm surprised to see such strong opposition to such simple thing
11:03
<vagrantc>
i've got to go now.
11:03
<gvy>
vagrantc, thanks anyways
11:03
<warren>
mccann, is that part backportable to F-8 or requires too much?
11:04
<ogra>
warren, mccann right, thats the one
11:04
i got a session though with our sshd, even without the script
11:04
<warren>
mccann, if an ssh session uses ck-launch-session, is it easy to automatically unregister when the ssh connection dies/
11:04
<ogra>
i just have 6the prob that remote sessions are not allowed anything
11:05
<mccann>
warren: http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=ConsoleKit.git;a=blob;hb=HEAD;f=tools/ck-launch-session.c
11:05
<warren>
mccann, oh, you would do like ck-launch-session /usr/bin/gnome-session?
11:05
<mccann>
yeah
11:06
<warren>
so when /usr/bin/gnome-session dies, ck-launch-session can unregister from CK?
11:06
<mccann>
that's the idea anyway
11:06
you should test it tho
11:06
<warren>
mccann, will this ck-launch-session work on F-8?
11:07
<mccann>
and test that it sets up the session correctly
11:07* gvy writes an async message to ML so that boolean question can be aired offline
11:07
<mccann>
warren: it should. There isn't much to it. But you should test it
11:07
<warren>
mccann, will do. thanks.
11:07* warren gets some quick food
11:10Pascal_1 has quit IRC
11:12
<gvy>
500 Internal error: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~shigorin/ltsp/ltsp-altlinux/annotate/ledest%40gmail.com-20080327153943-sk2gdajsrinxfd7p?file_id=ltspcommonfunctions-20080312182155-3niy8jrp3s3218mg-1
11:12
should it be reported somewhere?
11:13
<ogra>
gvy, ask #launchpad
11:13* gvy prefers term "quick silent food"
11:13
<gvy>
ogra, tnx
11:15Pascal_1 has joined #ltsp
11:18
<warren>
yesterday they said they're working on the 500 errors
11:19spectra has joined #ltsp
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11:22
<gvy>
warren, ah, hopefully it's the remnant, not the result :)
11:23* gvy has had different results during different works
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11:53
<warren>
mccann, #fedora-meeting in 8 minutes.
11:55
ogra, vagrantc: if you're interested I'm going to be talking about ldm first in #fedora-meeting
11:55
<ogra>
i'll lurk a bit between my other work
11:56
<warren>
k
11:57
<vagrantc>
warren: i'll drop in, but i'm mostly preparing to leave town
11:58
<warren>
vagrantc, k
11:58
vagrantc, where are you btw?
11:58
<vagrantc>
warren: buffalo, ny ... going to nyc tomorrow ... then to madrid
12:06Pascal_1 has joined #ltsp
12:08
<gvy>
vagrantc, wish you easy landings!
12:10joebaker has joined #ltsp
12:10
<gvy>
vagrantc, I've finished the message to the list -- with snippets and examples, not only some frustration on tastes :) re-reading before hitting send...
12:11
<vagrantc>
gvy: cool.
12:11
gvy: and of course, i'm only mentioning the things i have issue with ... though there's a few plugins or ideas i'll probably grab for debian :)
12:12
<gvy>
vagrantc, yeah, i do understand you :)
12:12
but want to resolve issues, even if in constructive way *grin* :)
12:13
<vagrantc>
even if? :)
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12:14
<gvy>
vagrantc, yup 8)
12:15
(well jokes aside, it's not that odd if :)
12:17
<enter>
12:18
vagrantc, i'll post re BOOTPROMPT_OPTS as well, was asking questions myself too
12:18
still that one seems way more trivial (and the post should be tiny)
12:19
<vagrantc>
gvy: BOOTPROMPT_OPTS is more an issue of changing default behavior, rather than adding functionality ... i like the idea of it being more flexible.
12:19
<gvy>
vagrantc, exactly
12:19
<ogra>
mccann, initially ldm was only a fullscreen gtk wion with 2 input fields that killed itself after input and ran ssh -X user@server /etc/X11/Xsession
12:19
mccann, with the c rewrite the setup got a lot more complex
12:19
<vagrantc>
gvy: overall, i think all the update-kernels code needs a good overhaul.
12:20
<ogra>
we use 2 ssh clients now and a comunication API between front and backend
12:21
<gvy>
vagrantc, well, we're at r706 now (not pushed yet, more intrusive)
12:21
<vagrantc>
gvy: i'd really like to see ALTLinux-specific changes in a separate branch from proposed general changes
12:22
<gvy>
vagrantc, umm... me too, was picking up bzr's concept of branches with some pain (using git's all-in-one-dir)
12:22
<vagrantc>
gvy: yes, it's totally different.
12:23
<gvy>
and at the same time explaining all of that to led, with mini-tutorial, man bzr and git experience flying around :)
12:23
<ogra>
mccann, the first ssh connection does the password handling and sets up the actual tunnel and a socket ... that way you can interact with sshd in case of a password expiry etc ... once the first connection is established, the greeter goes away and attaches a second client to the socket running the actual Xsession
12:24
<gvy>
vagrantc, part of decision to do things up to the point currently published was getting feedback and not wasting more (ours and yours) time on re-shuffling branches
12:24rasmuson_ has joined #ltsp
12:25
<mccann>
ogra: ok thanks
12:25
<gvy>
i've initially thought that branches are git-cheap in bzr, but was wrong... so we decided to stack the reasonable amount of changes which should be either trivially merged (non-conflicting by design) or an easy review
12:25
a few hours ago i've drawn the scheme with "merge" branch and "devel" one :)
12:25
<ogra>
mccann, if gdm can handle such a setup (and some extras like rc.d scripts before and after the second call) there would be no need for ldm
12:26
<vagrantc>
gvy: the issues arise where we disagree on easy review :)
12:26
<gvy>
vagrantc, so we're learning how things are done here, too, but of course not in a moment
12:26
vagrantc, yup :) and as you agreed to try and review, it's not my call to coerce you into anything :)
12:26
vagrantc, let's postpone it until you have time? or to the ML
12:27
missing transport doesn't really help development
12:29
<vagrantc>
gvy: well, i'm catching a train tomorrow morning... and my todo list isn't as full as it looked initially
12:29
<gvy>
vagrantc, ah, thought "rather immediately" as it happens
12:30
<vagrantc>
gvy: y'all are the first to use > 095 ...
12:30* vagrantc thought from day 1 it should just be 00-99
12:32
<vagrantc>
gvy: so, after reviewing the whole diff ... those are pretty much my only issues.
12:33
<gvy>
vagrantc, not that bad to me :)
12:34
<vagrantc>
gvy: it's mostly plugins to ALTLinux, so you can do things however crazy you want. :)
12:35
<gvy>
vagrantc, well, people could look inside and catch that craziness, would be bad ;)
12:35
<vagrantc>
gvy: just the boolean changes and BOOTPROMPT_OPTS, both of which i'm sure we can work out.
12:35
<gvy>
yup
12:35
<vagrantc>
gvy: true, true.
12:35
setting a bad/good example...
12:36
<gvy>
vagrantc, could you read the second half of the list message? there are links to good examples (by my measure) there as well
12:36
btw i considered proposing libshell some time down the road anyways. :)
12:36
<vagrantc>
gvy: a fair number of the ALTLinux plugins look like they would also work for Debian with a fre changes.
12:36
s,fre,few,
12:37
gvy: i'd like to try and keep outside dependencies to a minimum... but if it's widely accepted, by all means :)
12:41
widely accepted and makes our code better
12:41
that is
12:41
and is stable and not changing all the time, like bzr...
12:43
<gvy>
vagrantc, well, that might involve lugging a copy around -- don't think it's widely used atm
12:43
quite stable though
12:45ledest has joined #ltsp
12:45
<gvy>
finally
12:45
vagrantc, ledest; ledest, vagrantc :)
12:45* vagrantc waves to ledest
12:46praveer_fedora is now known as praveer_cool
12:47
<gvy>
vagrantc, so regarding bools: is "the third [empty] state" argument reasonable to you?
12:48
as i've posted, see no problem with is_yes()/is_no(), if these hurt then sed -ir heals :)
12:48
<vagrantc>
gvy, ledest: when making commits that are distro-specific, we've been using "$DIST: $comments" for the commit message
12:49
gvy: i think is_yes, is_no is just an alias for the other names ...
12:49
gvy: and i haven't read your email yet, by the way ...
12:49
<gvy>
vagrantc, exactly
12:49
<vagrantc>
gvy: so, i don't see much reason to just define an alias ...
12:49
<gvy>
well, a one-line form is "np" :)
12:50
vagrantc, btw ledest put "ALTLinux: ..." in r703 not even knowing of that rule :)
12:51
<vagrantc>
gvy: yeah... the earlier commits are more like "Added ALTLinux-specific ..." which seems verbose. again, not a huge deal. :)
12:51
<gvy>
vagrantc, hope we'll get used to how it uses to be here. :)
12:54
btw is there a "developer's corner" on the wiki? i've looked more closely and cannot see any
12:54
i'd drop a "$DIST: $comments" there too
12:54* vagrantc finds wiki.ltsp.org difficult to use
12:57steph_ has left #ltsp
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13:00
<vagrantc>
gvy: merged ..690
13:00
gvy: i.e. the easy stuff :)
13:01
<gvy>
vagrantc, http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/DevelopersCorner :)
13:02
vagrantc, good :) what's hurting next?
13:05elisboa has joined #ltsp
13:05
<gvy>
e.g. in r691 (expand server/ltsp-build-client, server/ltsp-update-kernels, expand server/ltsp-update-sshkeys)
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13:15
<gvy>
vagrantc, yay, pushed upstream r683 :)
13:15* gvy offers a hand
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13:20
<rjune_>
!seen gadi
13:20
<ltspbot>
rjune_: gadi was last seen in #ltsp 2 days, 1 hour, 24 minutes, and 46 seconds ago: <Gadi> agreed
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13:46
<johnny>
uggh..launchpad codebrowsing is broke again :(
13:46
stupid proxy error
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14:00
<warren>
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=436906 default pulseaudio daemon launching options
14:01
Isn't this another case similar to X -ac?
14:01
Anybody on the network can direct whatever noise they want at somebody's client?
14:01
<klausade>
Pascal_1: you might have gotten mail.
14:02
<Pascal_1>
yes i didnt make the link between you and the name on the mail !!
14:03
but the problem is about pal / ldm then i think it didnt works
14:03slidesinger has quit IRC
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14:03
<klausade>
Pascal_1: my initial tests shows that it works here with your chroot and kdm.
14:04
<Pascal_1>
by default it use ldm/gdm no ?
14:04
i've got to install kde on my debian ltsp server ?
14:05
<ogra>
warren, the thing its that its no regression to any former ltsp versions .... surely we can impriove it :)
14:06
<klausade>
Pascal_1: you use gdm+gnome? I can test that here later.
14:06
<warren>
ogra, it seems extremely cavalier to ship with a gaping security hole.
14:06
<Pascal_1>
debian is gnome default i think
14:06
<ogra>
warren, sound was always wide open ... and i dont really se a security issue here ... probably a fun one though if students can play sound on others machines :)
14:06
warren, feel free to fix it :)
14:07
<warren>
ogra, if students have headsets on, other people can really scare the heck out of them.
14:07
ogra, did you push fixes to xauth for your existing and new LTSP versions in Ubuntu?
14:08
You seriously need to treat this more seriously.
14:08
<ogra>
yeah, we used to do that at school on the terminals ... you could really scare people while playing a nethack session with wei5rd noises, that wa a lot of fun :)
14:08
<warren>
The xauth issue alone deserves a CVE report
14:08
it is very serious that anybody on the network can spy on or hijack your session
14:08
<ogra>
warren, well, if it would be seriously something that enables you to take over the machine i would be worried
14:09
<warren>
yes it is
14:09
<ogra>
but thats simply not the case
14:09
<johnny>
does it affect ltsp4 too?
14:09
<warren>
oh really?
14:09
johnny, no
14:09
<ogra>
johnny, it affects all networked sound systems
14:09
<warren>
ogra, ldm with LDM_DIRECTX?
14:09
<johnny>
i think he's talking about the -ac flag, not sound
14:09
<ogra>
pulse is the first one adding a rudimentary security to that
14:09
<warren>
ogra, in fact your ldm uses X -ac makes it insecure even with ssh
14:10
<johnny>
sound is seperate issue
14:10
right?
14:10
<ogra>
warren, are we talking about sound now or about fixed X issues ?
14:10
<warren>
ogra, did you already push fixes to all your distros for the X -ac issue?
14:10
<ogra>
-ac is fixed
14:10
and will be in the ubuntu release as wello
14:10
<warren>
that one really deserved a CVE
14:10
<ogra>
feel free
14:11
<johnny>
i'll bbl folks.. gotta talk to credit card processing people
14:12
<ogra>
id really appreciate a proper security fix for pulse ... but thats surely moretricky than you think to lock it per session ...
14:12
the plugins only allow filtering on IP base...
14:12
which doeswnt gain you anything
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14:21
<gvy>
ogra, just in case: a top security expert, Nakamura-san iirc, got his Sun workstation hacked some ten years ago or so
14:21
by a kid called Kevin Mitcnick
14:22
just because his X was listening to the wide open network
14:22
iirc an input window was opened
14:22
<ogra>
i didnt object that the X bug is serious
14:22
<gvy>
on the whole screen
14:22
capturing all the input... :)
14:22
ogra, well, it's rather an amusing story, not a cve comment :)
14:23
<ogra>
but i do for sound ... we dont support capturing there, all a hacker could do would be to play a sound through your speakers
14:23
<laga>
heh
14:23dan_young has quit IRC
14:23
<laga>
i remember the security issue in windows vista.. where an attacker could play back voice commands ;)
14:23
<ogra>
and given the lockdown options we have (that could lock out IPs but thats about it) i dont see a way to easily make it secure
14:23
<laga>
not sure if that was ever exploited
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14:24
<ogra>
you dont gain anything by restricting to the server IP for example
14:24
since all ltsp users can still play sounds through your speakers
14:24
<opapo>
When I restart my client the server gets restarted
14:25
<laga>
that's what you get for IRCing as root ;)
14:25
<gvy>
warren, i hope that some day we'll just do an audit of the branch, and will have backing by Dmitry Levin for that either
14:25
<opapo>
I installed Edubuntu server on a VM
14:25
<gvy>
warren, since it's not exactly decent to understand that the decision to use good ol
14:25
<opapo>
Then I had another vm that was the client
14:25
<warren>
I just talked with Lennart (pulseaudio lead developer), he has a secure solution
14:25
<gvy>
ol' xdmcp seems to be actually more secure as well than using ssh, ldm and finally -ac
14:26
<ogra>
warren, one thats implementable ?
14:26
<warren>
ogra, I'm studying it
14:26
<ogra>
and works attached to the ssh tunnel ?
14:26
thats our only way to attach securely to the session
14:26
<gvy>
well, cookies might be the way
14:27
<ogra>
we have a secure connection
14:27
why should we use cookies
14:27
<gvy>
ogra, and restricting by server ip *does* gain the inability of the rest of lan (if it's not a terminal network alone) to make fun :)
14:27
<ogra>
all we need to manage is to tie the sound to it
14:27
<gvy>
ogra, no -- cookies over secure connections, then use within pulse to allow/deny
14:28
<ogra>
well, we have and use an xatom cookie already
14:28
<gvy>
sound over ssh was a bad idea to me a few years ago... delays fly high
14:28
<ogra>
we could just use that
14:28
<gvy>
yup
14:28
<ogra>
i dodnt say to puch the payload though the tunnel :)
14:28
<gvy>
ah :)
14:28
<ogra>
*push
14:28
<gvy>
*punch
14:28
<ogra>
ltspfs doesnt do that either
14:29
but it uses the ssh security for validation
14:29
<warren>
xatom cookies are for ltspfs?
14:29
<ogra>
pulse should do the same
14:29
<warren>
not pulse right?
14:29
<ogra>
right
14:29
but nothing forbids us to use them generally
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14:30
<ogra>
inn any case i'm not really concerned about the issue .. if you find a fix, great if you dont, it will go on to work as it always did
14:31
-ac was actually a regression ... beyond being a huge security hole
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15:02* gvy is away: ~
15:02
<gvy>
bb, going home for weekend
15:02
thanks & luck
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