IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 21 March 2013   (all times are UTC)

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07:46
<epoptes_user9>
hi. I've come with a question about epoptes. anyone here familiar with it?
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07:49
<alkisg>
!ask | echo epoptes_user9:
07:49
<ltsp>
epoptes_user9: ask: Don't ask to ask a question, simply ask it, and if someone knows the answer, they'll respond. Please hang around for at least a full hour after asking a question, as not everybody constantly monitors the channel.
07:52
<epoptes_user9>
ltsp: thanks. just downloaded epoptes to opensuse 12.3. When I try and open it I get the message: "User jon must be a member of group epoptes to run epoptes." Question: how do I add user jon to group epoptes?
07:53
<alkisg>
epoptes_user9: gpasswd -a epoptes jon
07:53
With sudo or su, whatever opensuse uses
07:54
<epoptes_user9>
alkisg: i'll try it now thanks.
07:55
<alkisg>
epoptes_user9: note that you need to logout/login again, in order for group changes to take effect
07:55
There should also be some GUI tool in opensuse for user management
07:55
<epoptes_user9>
alkisg: i get the error message: "user 'epoptes' does not exist"
07:56
<alkisg>
epoptes_user9: sorry, it's the other way around then: gpasswd -a jon epoptes
07:56
<epoptes_user9>
alkisg: ok
07:56
looks good. i'll logout/in now
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08:29
<elias_a>
!lastseen vmlintu
08:29
<ltsp>
Error: "lastseen" is not a valid command.
08:29
<elias_a>
Oops.
08:51
<knipwim>
!seen vmlintu
08:51
<ltsp>
vmlintu was last seen in #ltsp 1 week, 1 day, 23 hours, 26 minutes, and 1 second ago: <vmlintu> alkisg: where can I find ltspd?
08:57
<elias_a>
knipwim: Thank you!
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09:18
<vmlintu>
elias_a: how's it going?
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09:33
<elias_a>
vmlintu: Wow! The invisible man has returned! :D
09:34
<vmlintu>
elias_a: just too busy coding a bettter world
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13:40
<sbalneav>
Morning all
13:57
<Hyperbyte>
Morning. :)
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14:00
<elias_a>
Mourning!
14:01
<ogra_>
!s
14:01
<ltsp>
s: Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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14:05
<sbalneav>
Hey ogra_!
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14:06* ogra_ hands sbalneav a https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-RGqGhbZCxmI/UUraE5SMbGI/AAAAAAAABWE/IRwgZvae-5c/s707/smooth_canadian.jpg
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14:08
<sbalneav>
That's what all us Canadians look like, you know.
14:09
http://iraffiruse.net/post/787221983
14:10
<ogra_>
haha
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14:49
<cpm__bis>
Hello!!! I am in a classroom in France where 20 pc are running well under LTSP. I am enjoy! :-)
14:50
(elementary school)
14:50
Question: if several students connect with the same user then Firefox won't launch twice or more.
14:51
Any idea to solve this case without create one user by student?
14:52
<laurense>
I think you must somehow try to prevent firefox creating the lock file
14:52
or to let the clients create the lock file on a lokal temporary filesystem
14:53
Ik don't know how to implement it in ltsp, also a newbie on that area
14:54
but on starting firefox it will check for some kind of lock file
14:55
<cpm__bis>
In this way, you hope that Firefox's file are sharable ^^
14:56
Thank's for the idea. :o)
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14:58
<laurense>
cpm__bis: alkisg helped me a lot a while ago, maybe he has a good idea about this problem?
14:58
<alkisg>
Hi guys
14:58* alkisg checks the irclogs...
14:58
<laurense>
unfortunatly he missed the conversation
14:59
<alkisg>
cpm__bis: it's strongly recommented that you use a different user per pc. Not the same user for all PCs.
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15:02
<laurense>
cpm__bis: if it doesn't matter which user the students are working with you could look into auto login with a user per workstation
15:03
<cpm__bis>
alkisg, Hi. Yes, It is the way I am working on. But I try to check other way. From what you tell me, there is no new way. Thank's a lot :-)
15:03
<laurense>
or enabling the guest logon
15:03
that way creating a profile for the duration of the session
15:04
<alkisg>
Local guest accounts is another thing, yeah, they don't even need to be server users
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15:05
<cpm__bis>
hooo, indeed, it is a solution but how configure it? I know how do it for one user on one computer.
15:06
I will check the lts.conf possibilities.
15:06
<alkisg>
You don't want the users to be able to save data?
15:06
<cpm__bis>
Of course YES :)
15:06
<alkisg>
So guest accounts are NOT what you want :)
15:06
Go on with the "one user per client" plan
15:07
<cpm__bis>
oki, many thanks.
15:08
Another point: have you got a URL explaining how configure default GNOME 2 desktop. I'd like configure same menu and icons for all students.
15:08
<alkisg>
Gnome 2? Which distribution and version are you using?
15:08
<cpm__bis>
Debian squeeze stable + backports.
15:09
<alkisg>
Ah, ok. There are docs for that in gnome.org
15:09
<cpm__bis>
I choose it because use Gnome 2 that is really good for student. ^^
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15:09
<alkisg>
But those are windows techniques
15:09
<jammcq>
good morning friends
15:09
<alkisg>
Morning jammcq
15:09
<cpm__bis>
hello
15:09
<alkisg>
cpm__bis: it's much easier in linux if you let each student have his own desktop, settings, files etc
15:11
<cpm__bis>
Students are very young, the idea was to put selected icon on the desktop. But you are right, learn them to put icon on the desktop is a good idea. I will push it. :o)
15:11
<alkisg>
Teachers here start with the same objectives, "how to lock everything", until they realize it's much easier to let students do whatever they want, and just reset stuff when needed
15:12
You can have a script put icons or symlinks to their desktops on login
15:12
That's quite easy
15:13
<cpm__bis>
really? Good news. I will try this. I am goto the Gnome 2 documentation. Thank's you alkisg, laurense for your help. Have a good day from Paris (France)!
15:13
<alkisg>
Good day from Greece to you too :)
15:14
<laurense>
no problem
15:14
Good day form the Netherlands to you too
15:14
<cpm__bis>
hahaah, excellent! :o)
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15:27
<alkisg>
cpm__bis: also, if you want to move to wheezy, this is similar to gnome2: http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=gnome-session-fallback
15:30
<sbalneav>
alkisg: So, this weekend, I'm going to try to glue together udisks-glue, sshfs, and some scripting I've been working on for auto-key generation into a replacement localdev implementation.
15:31
<cpm__bis>
alkisg, thank, I tested gnome session fallback and I do not approve it. :-/
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15:42
<alkisg>
sbalneav: cool! we don't use localdevs at all here though so I won't be able to test them much, but it certainly is a good step towards ltsp6
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15:49
<alkisg>
So wait, no ldm, cdpinger, getltscfg, xatomwait, ltspfs, ... LTSP 6 won't have .c files at all?! :D
15:50
<jammcq>
:(
15:50
<alkisg>
...we could also rewrite ldminfod in shell/inetd, and remove python too :P
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16:19
<Phantomas>
alkisg: and ltspd? :p
16:20
Or you named ltspd ldminfod? :P
16:21
<sbalneav>
alkisg: Well, it will have the pam module.
16:25
<alkisg>
The pam module is a separate package
16:26
Phantomas: that's what I was saying "rewrite ldminfod in shell", but I was just joking about it
16:27
<Phantomas>
alkisg: I thought we were calling it ltspd :P
16:27
<sbalneav>
Plus, we may still need xatomwait, but if we're going to run an sshd down on the thin client, then maybe not.
16:27
<alkisg>
Phantomas: ldminfod is an existing component of ltsp. ltspd aims to replace it, along with lts.conf
16:28
<Phantomas>
alkisg: ah, ok then
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17:23
<Enslaver>
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-EPEL-2013-0727/ltsp-5.4.5-4.el6
17:23* vagrantc takes notes
17:24
<warren>
Enslaver: I didn't expect that you'd submit it to the actual repository so soon
17:24
Enslaver: it didn't pass the required package reviews
17:25
Enslaver: please don't push it to updates, updates-testing is OK for now.
17:25
<Enslaver>
i submitted to testing
17:26
<warren>
yeah, just that we're violating policy to be in testing
17:26
<Enslaver>
hows that?
17:26
<warren>
this technically requires a package review, which currenlyt it has no chance of passing.
17:27
<Enslaver>
yeah there's no way all of this will make it into EPEL anyway
17:28
i mean heck, the way we're building the client is to call other repo's
17:29
<warren>
that can be fixed later
17:29
we have approval (sort of) to put our kernel in EPEL
17:29
like I had it before
17:29
<Enslaver>
calling it?
17:29
I might have a better solution actually
17:29
<warren>
?
17:30
<Enslaver>
the other day i got a nbd dkms rpm working
17:30
so it will compile the nbd.ko module for whatever kernel the user is running, provided the kernel-devel package is installed, thats option 1
17:31
option 2 is to include the initrd.ltsp with the binary server rpms
17:31
and only keep it in the tftpboot directory
17:32
that way we can keep it all at the same level, which can be different from the actual client kernel
17:32
<warren>
dkms?
17:32
or the newer akmod standard?
17:32
trouble with either is it requires having the compiler in the chroot?
17:33
<Enslaver>
yup, gotta have it in the chroot :( but can be removed after it's complete, just takes ltsp-build-client a bit longer
17:33
<warren>
Enslaver: EL6 kernel is supposed to have a stable ABI, meaning with a little hacking you can make a binary nbd.ko that loads in any version of EL6 kernel
17:33
<Enslaver>
unsigned nbd.ko
17:33
which i don't mind
17:34
i just didn't think EPEL would want that being put in people's modules directory
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17:36
<warren>
Enslaver: not a problem, install it with ltsp-client
17:37
<Enslaver>
ltsp-client rpm tho, which has to be hosted on EPEL as well, correct?
17:37
ideally anyway
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17:45
<Enslaver>
To future proof this we may want to explore something other than nbd :( it seems rh just doesnt want people having it, maybe to convert us borgs to use spice?
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18:47
<sbalneav>
Enslaver: NFS?
18:48
<Enslaver>
For squashfs images
18:49
<warren>
Enslaver: make the nbd.ko that can load into any EL6 kernel
18:49
<Enslaver>
Ive played with dmsquash-live a little, it could be a good solution, if not, then iscsi
18:49
<warren>
Enslaver: and fedora has nbd.ko already
18:51
<Enslaver>
I have nbd.ko compiled for all arches, is there a specific way to compile them so they load with any kernel symbols?
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19:47
<||cw>
Enslaver: if only kernel modules worked that way...
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19:47
<Enslaver>
i know that you have to distribute the symbols with them but i know theres a way to compile them into the module, i just can't remember
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20:09
<alkisg>
Enslaver: did you try mounting a squashfs image as root, over NFS instead of NBD? Maybe the performance hit isn't that bad...
20:09
<Enslaver>
yeah i had it mounted as a loop device, mounted on /opt/ltsp/i386 and it still was painful
20:10
<jammcq>
but where was it mounted as a loop device, on the server?
20:10
or on the client?
20:10
on the server would be like the worst of both worlds
20:11
not even sure you could do it on the client
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20:12
<vagrantc>
you can loopback mount files served over NFS...
20:14
<alkisg>
Enslaver: yeah I meant on the client, from the initramfs... e.g. nfsmount server:/opt/ltsp/images/i386.img /run/i386.img; mount -o loop,ro /run/i386.img /rootmnt; pivot-root /rootmnt or something
20:16
<Enslaver>
so nfs mount the shared folder inside the initramfs t
20:16
then mount it as a loop device?
20:16
<alkisg>
Yup
20:16
<Enslaver>
hmm
20:16
that one I haven't tried
20:16
<alkisg>
You can also export a file with NFS, not a folder, right?
20:17
But anyway if not, the whole /opt/ltsp/images folder, ok
20:19
<vagrantc>
you'd save something having the sqaushfs compression, and disk caching in ram might be a little more efficient
20:19
<alkisg>
Compression + lack of metadata
20:20
<jammcq>
my guess is it would give performance somewhere between normal NFS and NBD
20:20
<alkisg>
It could even be a bit more stable wrt disconnects/reconnets
20:21
<jammcq>
hmm, could be
20:21
<alkisg>
(than nbd)
20:21
<jammcq>
interesting idea at least
20:21* alkisg tries an hdparm comparison there...
20:24
<alkisg>
hdparm => inappropriate ioctrl for device, trying dd...
20:25
nbd=40 MB/sec, nfs=25 MB/sec
20:26
<jammcq>
yeah, nbd is a pretty light protocol
20:26
very low overhead
20:26
nbd is pretty chatty
20:27
<alkisg>
Still, it's much better than plain nfs, which is about 5 times slower then compressed nbd
20:28* alkisg tries a tar...
20:29
<jammcq>
what are you dd'ing? something from inside the squashfs filesystem?
20:29
<alkisg>
The first try was /dev/nbd0 vs /mnt/i386.img (where /mnt is server:/opt/ltsp/images over NFS)
20:29
Now I'll try some actual files, with tar
20:30
<jammcq>
but you aren't using squashfs, right?
20:30
<alkisg>
The images are squashfs'ed
20:30
<jammcq>
but you are grabbing the whole image? or something inside the image?
20:30
<alkisg>
The first try was the whole image
20:30
The second try now, will be tar'ring files from inside the image
20:31
Both images are squashfs images
20:31
<jammcq>
so you are mounting the squashfs file on the client?
20:31
and then tarring something inside it?
20:31
<alkisg>
For the second try, yes
20:31
<jammcq>
k
20:31
<alkisg>
tar > /dev/null
20:31
<jammcq>
that's the good test
20:32
<Enslaver>
well i've been playing with iscsi enterprise target for net booting squashfs root
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20:32
<jammcq>
iscsi sounds interesting, but I think there's a small audience for that
20:32
<Enslaver>
which might also allow for not requiring a /var/lib/tftpboot directory
20:33boxmgehz is now known as |Paradox|
20:33
<alkisg>
Enslaver: how are you going to netboot without pxelinux?
20:33
<Enslaver>
small audience that uses iscsi?
20:33
<jammcq>
yeah
20:34
<Enslaver>
I haven't seen a place without iscsi
20:34
<ogra_>
Enslaver, in schools ?
20:35
<sbalneav>
I don't have it, all the schools in Brazil deploying LTSP probably don't have it, the libraries in the US that use LTSP probably don't have it....
20:35
<jammcq>
is it just a matter of setting up a service ?
20:35
<ogra_>
i wrote the nbd implementation at a time where iscsi wasnt existing btw ...
20:35
<sbalneav>
Heck, WE don't have it.
20:35
<jammcq>
I know it's been in the kernel for a while
20:35
<ogra_>
thats the simple reason why we have nbd today
20:35
<alkisg>
nbd: 10.413 secs, vs nfs: 10.127... /me wonders if his tar command line is wrong...
20:35
<jammcq>
sbalneav: maybe you do :)
20:35
<Enslaver>
schools?
20:35
<ogra_>
if it had existed back then i would have looked at it
20:35
<Enslaver>
ogra_: i'm targeting company's
20:35
<jammcq>
Enslaver: good, many of us aren't
20:36
<ogra_>
yeah
20:36
<jammcq>
Enslaver: are you assuming they have a SAN ?
20:36
<alkisg>
Does this seem ok? root@ltsp123:/tmp/nfs# time tar -cf /dev/null usr/
20:36
<jammcq>
of will any old linux box act as a iscsi server?
20:36
<ogra_>
its a kernel feature
20:37
<Enslaver>
jamm: no
20:37
jammcq, i'm allowing for both, but assuming nothing
20:37
<jammcq>
Enslaver: then I don't have iscsi
20:37
<ogra_>
so yes, you could run iscsi on the ltsp server
20:37* vagrantc notes that squashfs over NFS is what the debian-live and ubuntu-live netboot uses
20:37
<jammcq>
vagrantc: over nfs ?
20:37
<Enslaver>
vagrantc, and fedora/redhat uses dmsquash-live
20:38
<alkisg>
vagrantc: unless I'm doing something very wrong in my benchmark... I see no difference in the actual NFS vs NBD test
20:38
<Enslaver>
i tried it like this: root=live:/opt/ltsp/images/i386.img
20:39
<vagrantc>
jammcq: yes, just like the tests alkisg is performing.
20:39
<Enslaver>
i did tests yesterday
20:39* vagrantc suspects debian-live can support half a dozen network booting options, from a glance at the code
20:40
<alkisg>
It also has a vast range of configuration options for the live system, apart from the boot device
20:40
<Enslaver>
lemme guess, iscsi, AoE, nbd, nfs, gfs?
20:41
<ogra_>
its not a matter of options, its a matter of code :)
20:41
write an implementation for either of these that we can use upstream :)
20:42
nobody will refuse an iscsi AoE or gfs implementation ;)
20:43
the more choices the better
20:43
<Enslaver>
yeah I'm almost done with the iscsi one
20:44
<ogra_>
will it work on ubuntu and debian too ?
20:44
<Enslaver>
what iscsi-target implementation does deb / ubuntu use?
20:44
<muppis>
open
20:45
<ogra_>
yeah, what muppis said
20:45
<Enslaver>
they have a target?
20:46
last i checked open-iscsi only had the initiator
20:46
<vagrantc>
there's both open-iscsi and iscsitarget packages in debian
20:46
as well as a couple others
20:46
that might be related
20:47
<alkisg>
We could probably grow some ltsp.mount=xxx kernel options, to allow for arbitrary mounts in the initramfs... e.g. here's another use case: mount a local NTFS partition, then loop-mount the squashfs image C:\i386.img from that partition, and use that for root (+ a cow of course)
20:47
<ogra_>
well, ubuntu only has the open-iscsi packages in main so i doubt anything else is needed
20:47
<alkisg>
That way we could easily implement a true ltsp-client-setup.exe installer for windows :P
20:48
<Enslaver>
if it's iet then it'll work
20:48
iscsi enterprise target
20:48
<jammcq>
I would hope that NFS would be the common denomenator across all distros
20:48
but nbd has better performance, so we should try to include that everywhere possible
20:48
<ogra_>
anyway, what jammcq said
20:49
<jammcq>
and I would expect iscsi would have possibly better performance than nbd
20:49
and it offers some interesting things, like putting the images on a san
20:49* ogra_ doubts that, at least in the single img context
20:49
<Enslaver>
I would love to stick with NFS :( my boss just won't go for it
20:50
<alkisg>
NBD has had a lot of problems recently though... like all the nbd-server instances crashing because of a problematic negotiation with a single client...
20:50
<jammcq>
yeah, that's a problem
20:50
<ogra_>
i suspect you wont see many differences anymore between the different network filesystem options nowadays
20:50
<alkisg>
From what I read, iscsi is a bit slower than nbd, it has more overhead
20:50
And aoe is a bit lighter
20:50
<jammcq>
I would consider a distro's LTSP implementation to be non-compliant if it doesn't support NFS
20:50
<Enslaver>
there was something i couldn't get working with AoE, can't remember what
20:50
<jammcq>
but I dunno if i'd also think that if it didn't support nbd
20:51
<ogra_>
alkisg, well, likely in margins you wont really notice on a typical ltsp setup
20:51
<alkisg>
True, I can't even notice it with NFS in my benchmarks now :-/
20:51
<ogra_>
yeah
20:51
<alkisg>
I'll measure boot times tomorrow
20:52
If they're the same, I see no reason to continue supporting nbd at all...
20:52
<ogra_>
that shoould be more intresting
20:52
simply because yu wil have a lot parallel I/O
20:52
<muppis>
I'm not fully pleasant about open-iscsi. It might be cause by server, which is ubuntu 12.04 based and cluster. When failover happens, iscsi connections are remounted as ro which causes little problems in vm.
20:52
<jammcq>
i'd be surprised if you didn't see a big difference in boot times between NBD and NFS
20:53
<alkisg>
jammcq: I'm talking about the squashfs file served over NFS, of course...
20:53
<jammcq>
ah
20:53
<ogra_>
jammcq, well, the last time we measured was what ... 2006 ?
20:53
or 2008
20:53
<alkisg>
Plain NFS vs squashfs NBD was 5 times slower
20:53
<jammcq>
ok, i'd be interested in a normal NBD vs normal NFS boot
20:53
<Enslaver>
has NFSv4 been tested?
20:53
<ogra_>
i would actually expect nfs to be a lot better nowadys
20:53
compared to back then at least
20:54
<jammcq>
better, like 3 times slower than nbd ?
20:54
<ogra_>
.... though a wet sponge is better than nfs was back then :)
20:54
so that shouldnt be hard to beat
20:55
i would still think nfs is slower ... but not by such a margin
20:55
<jammcq>
btw, how does Oct-31 through Nov 3rd sound for BTS-2013 ?
20:55
<alkisg>
In my tests (copying files from the chroot to /dev/null), NFS was about 2 times slower than NBD. But NBD was also compressed 2.5 times, so in total that was 5 times.
20:55
<ogra_>
jammcq, any time is fine ... my UDS is virtual :)
20:56* ogra_ will definitely make it this year
20:56
<Enslaver>
it appears as though ubuntu and debian both can use IET
20:56
<ogra_>
IET ?
20:56* jammcq is definitely happy to hear ogra will make it
20:56
<Enslaver>
iscsi enterprise target
20:56
<ogra_>
ah
20:56
sure
20:56
<jammcq>
Enslaver: is a target the service, (where the data is) ?
20:57
and an 'initiator' the client?
20:57
<ogra_>
canonical lives from its enterprise cloud business ... would be funny if it didnt support that
20:58
<Enslaver>
yes, target = server, initiator = client
20:59
<ogra_>
yes, i get that
20:59
<jammcq>
so a linux box could be a target, and the thin client would be the initiator
20:59
<Enslaver>
yup
21:00
<ogra_>
didnt stgraber play with iscsi back in the days with ltsp-cluster ?
21:00
<Enslaver>
or they could have a separate open filer vm or net app NAS box acting as the target
21:00
<alkisg>
vagrantc: have you noticed any advantages to NFS vs NBD, wrt reconnects? E.g. if you disconnect an NBD client for 1 minute, it won't come back, but if you disconnect an NFS client for 1 minute, it will?
21:01
<jammcq>
it should
21:01
nfs is stateless
21:01
<vagrantc>
alkisg: sometimes i've seen clients disconnected for over 24 hours and recover fine
21:01
<alkisg>
NFS only, right?
21:01
<vagrantc>
yes
21:01* alkisg will try to verify tomorrow that squashfs file over NFS is as fast as squashfs file over NBD
21:02
<Enslaver>
what is "canonical" i keep hearing that word a lot
21:02
<ogra_>
Enslaver, the company driving ubuntu
21:02
<Enslaver>
i see
21:02
they trying to become the next red hat in a way?
21:03
<ogra_>
similar to what redhat is to fedora, just completely different
21:03
<alkisg>
vagrantc: and, any specific reason for not doing swap over NFS? (sparse files etc)
21:03
<Enslaver>
gotcha, so almost exactly the same except not?
21:03
<jammcq>
heh, you could say they're already there
21:03
<ogra_>
since canonical doesnt sell an OS
21:03
<Enslaver>
red hat doesn't either
21:03
<ogra_>
and canonical doesnt make the rules for ubuntu
21:03
<Enslaver>
red hat doesn't make the rules for fedora
21:03
<ogra_>
(else we would have rolling releases by now)
21:03
<vagrantc>
alkisg: swap over NFS caused kernel deadlocks
21:04
<alkisg>
Ah
21:04
<jammcq>
yeah, swap over nfs is troublesome
21:04
<ogra_>
Enslaver, because they take it, modify and sell it
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21:04
<ogra_>
Enslaver, canonnical doesnt do such a thing
21:04
<vagrantc>
there were ancient patches for swap over NFS that never got integrated into the kernel ... for good reason.
21:04
<Enslaver>
I don't remember every having to buy an OS from redhat
21:04
<ogra_>
so it is 100% depending on the community steering the distro
21:05
well, you buy licenses for an enterprise product they make
21:05
<Enslaver>
you can buy support licenses
21:05* vagrantc isn't so sure about 100% ...
21:05
<jammcq>
heh
21:05
<Enslaver>
which also buys access to use rhn
21:05
<alkisg>
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=678472 "Swap over NFS deadlocks under memory pressure" ==> fix committed... /me is wondering if that ended up upstream...
21:06
<ogra_>
vagrantc, ?
21:06
<Enslaver>
ogra_: he's saying money = power
21:06
<ogra_>
vagrantc,, ubuntu is governed by the technical board and community council ... while canonical has some seats in both, its the minority
21:07
<Enslaver>
they might not steer it, but i'm sure they can navigate it
21:07
<vagrantc>
ogra_: i'm not directly experienced in the issue, but i've seen a number of folks leaving ubuntu lately because of how much sway canonical has...
21:08
<Enslaver>
like how everyone left RH
21:08
right war war?
21:08
<ogra_>
vagrantc, right, because rickspencer wrote a werid mail saying hey, well switch to rolling releases ... and people took that as an order from canonical
21:08
<Enslaver>
he's probably on the beach
21:08
<jammcq>
I think part of that is perceived sway
21:09
<alkisg>
So if the community didn't like unity, ubuntu wouldn't have unity? /me doubts that...
21:09
<ogra_>
vagrantc, the result of all this was that the TB cut the support cycle in half for the non LTS releases ... and there is something similar to a unstable symlink on archive.u.c now
21:09
vagrantc, what you saw was mainly overreaction and utter nonsense
21:09
<vagrantc>
ogra_: it's not that one thing ... but i'm not personally invested either way.
21:09* jammcq stopped being pissed at Ubuntu when he figured out that they did exactly what they said they'd do: Linux for Human Beings
21:10
<jammcq>
and most of us just aren't normal human beings
21:10
<ogra_>
well, there was the rollong release thing and Mir ...
21:10
i cant remember anythign else recently
21:10
and Mir is a replacement for SurfaceFlinger atm, nothing more
21:11* vagrantc can't keep track of all the things people grumble about, legitimately or not
21:11
<ogra_>
heh
21:11
<jammcq>
it's not a replacement for Xorg ?
21:11
<ogra_>
long term it is ...
21:11
by 14,04 or so
21:11
<jammcq>
there's plenty of choices out there, and still plenty of reason to love whichever distro you love
21:12
<ogra_>
yeah
21:12* vagrantc tips a hat to jammcq
21:12* jammcq is re-kindling his old love ov debian
21:12
<jammcq>
s/ov/of/
21:12
<vagrantc>
distro fanaticism is boring :)
21:13* jammcq thinks ubuntu will be great for the masses, while debian is great for the geeks
21:13
<ogra_>
vagrantc, well, you wouldnt want to have to package rpms either, do you
21:14
<jammcq>
I just wish I could get my dual 30" displays to play well with some distro
21:14
<ogra_>
probably not fanaticim ... but we all swing one way or the other
21:14
<jammcq>
it's not a happy experience with ubuntu atm
21:14
<ogra_>
whats your issue ? my triple head works out of the box here
21:15
with and without binary drivers
21:15
any error message ?
21:16
<alkisg>
Safe swapping over NFS and NBD in kernel 3.6: http://kernelnewbies.org/Linux_3.6#head-90a9988ae90f3481e4e6ddcae356bb8c614b531e
21:16
<jammcq>
I think i need a geForce card, cuz my ati and quattro cards suck
21:16
30" monitors are a different beast cuz they need either displayPport or dual-link dvi
21:16
and 2 of them means dual-dual-link
21:16
<ogra_>
well i have a radeom 6990 and a gtx 650 or so
21:17
<vagrantc>
alkisg: crazy!
21:17
<ogra_>
alkisg, i did swapping over nbd ages ago ... works really nice if your swapfile lives in a tempfs in ram on the server ;)
21:18
jammcq, heh, but thats a challenge for every distro i fear
21:19
<jammcq>
yeah, but it works flawlessly on OSX
21:19
<ogra_>
though all of them support xorg.conf still
21:19
<jammcq>
i'm just gonna run that
21:19
<ogra_>
hah
21:19
following miguel ?
21:19
<jammcq>
and it works in Win-7, but i'm not gonna run that either
21:19
heh
21:19
he makes a good point
21:19
<ogra_>
he surely does
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21:21
<ogra_>
but seeing nvidia using unity on stage at their presentation and not OSX or Win8 says something as well i'd say
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21:22* alkisg waves
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21:25
<ogra_>
(or that linux game sales on steam are cuttenly on their way to surpass games on mac after only a few months)
21:29
<vagrantc>
meh.
21:29
debian's now in deep freeze and there were a few "important" fixes that i don't know if i can get in.
21:30
<ogra_>
when is release due ?
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21:31
<vagrantc>
same as always
21:31
<ogra_>
haha
21:32
<vagrantc>
the bug count is getting pretty low now, though.
21:32
<ogra_>
nice, so shouldnt be long
21:33
<vagrantc>
need to open a couple for libnss-sshsock and libpam-sshauth, since we don't really want to support those versions for a whole release cycle...
21:36* ogra_ is sadly doing more android than ubuntu work lately
21:37
<ogra_>
and its no fun at all ...
21:38
handling tens of gigabyte big branches just to get a 50M image out on the rear end
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22:55
<Enslaver>
so i got a question, when building the client i can specific the name of the chroot by doing ltsp-build-client --chroot, but how do i specify what chroot to use when doing ltsp-chroot ?
22:55
Also, in the ltsp-chroot code it says it reads from a config file /etc/ltsp/ltsp-chroot.conf but where in the code does it look at that file?
22:57
<ogra_>
vagrantc, ugh ... http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2013-March/009797.html ... what will debian do ?
22:58
no more dbus without systemd sound pretty bad
22:58
*sounds
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23:06
<vagrantc>
ogra_: something
23:06
<ogra_>
heh
23:07
well, i guess it wont itch you much for the next few months ...
23:08
but no more dbus upstream means its effectively dead unless your distro switches the init system
23:10
<vagrantc>
ubuntu going systemd?
23:11
<ogra_>
well, for parts ...
23:11
<vagrantc>
Enslaver: the configuration file handling for most tools should now be in common functions
23:11
<ogra_>
consolekit is dead already ... so you need logind
23:11
udev is dead
23:11* vagrantc blinks
23:11
<warren>
systemd replaces all that?
23:11
<ogra_>
so you need to build it from the systemd source
23:12
warren, yeah, i'm waiting for it to grow an input system and a display server soon
23:12
<warren>
ogra_: what? no device drivers too?
23:12
<Enslaver>
I'm thinking systemd is whats coming in EL7 :(
23:12
<ogra_>
so in ubuntu we have the systemd source package but build only some individual tools to keep the pieces working
23:13
<warren>
Enslaver: already need to support it if you support Fedora 18+
23:13
<Enslaver>
warren: Yeah i saw, not looking forward to that
23:13
<warren>
is upstart getting lots of attention?
23:13
<ogra_>
well, as long as canonical is around it will ... its less and less thanks to lennart
23:13
<warren>
Enslaver: at least most of the old tools work as passthrough
23:13
<vagrantc>
now that systemd is required for nearly everything, i wonder how long it'll take for lennart to switch to something else
23:13
<ogra_>
upstart is what chromeos uses
23:14
<Enslaver>
<3 chromeos
23:14
<ogra_>
and i would suspect android too soon ... with the recent movements inside google
23:14
<warren>
google can do whatever the hell they want, the user experience is abstracted from all that
23:14
<ogra_>
yeah
23:14
<Enslaver>
chromeos is soo pretty, after i use it i just want to go in the bathroom, light some candles and touch myself
23:14
<ogra_>
vagrantc, ++
23:15
<warren>
I'm still a lot more pissed off about pulseaudio than systemd, personally
23:15
<ogra_>
wayland already has its systemd equivalent in Mir now, so he wont do a display server next
23:15
<Enslaver>
they realized pulse audio is lame and are going back to alas? yay
23:16
alsa*
23:16
<ogra_>
warren, pulse got great once lennart left
23:16
<vagrantc>
it's amazing how many technologies i've never had to bother with by simply working with a distro that releases once every two years...
23:16
<ogra_>
its a fairly good thing nowadays
23:16
haha
23:16
<warren>
oh, then I should hope lennart leaves systemd?
23:16
<Enslaver>
vagrantc: debian only releases once every two years?
23:16
<vagrantc>
Enslaver: approximately
23:17
<Enslaver>
vagrantc, hmmm, maybe i'll give it another look
23:17
<ogra_>
warren, depends what he turns to, what vagrantc said :)
23:17* warren hopes Windows Phone. Please please.
23:17
<vagrantc>
Enslaver: it's not on a predictible release cycle
23:17
<ogra_>
LOL
23:17
<warren>
vagrantc: are Debian releases modern by the time they happen?
23:18* warren has never used Debian or Ubuntu ever.
23:18
<Enslaver>
I tried the latest ubuntu, wouldn't boot on any of my systems
23:18
<ogra_>
debian has a pretty good backports story
23:18
just got better recently even
23:19
but its pretty outdated at release day if you look at upstreams
23:19
<vagrantc>
https://wiki.debian.org/DebianReleases#Release_statistics
23:19
<Enslaver>
debian still interests me, also checked out suse, it's got a nice model
23:20
<ogra_>
ubuntu is pretty recent ... but for your mom ...
23:20
<warren>
ChromeOS
23:20
<vagrantc>
if you honestly can't bear to use software that's a year or two old, i question the quality of the software in the first place :)
23:20
<ogra_>
and indeed not as well tested as a distro that takes 2 years of QA
23:21
<warren>
I enjoy seeing twice a year if they managed to seize making GNOME worse.
23:21
<vagrantc>
GNOME does a great job of that
23:21
<ogra_>
heh, yeah ...
23:23
<Enslaver>
is chromeos open source? i kinda want to look at the kernel it uses
23:23* ogra_ had to explain to someone today that you can only change the font size in the a11y settings nowadays ... and it only offers small/normal/large now
23:24
<warren>
that's all you need!
23:24
<ogra_>
Enslaver, the underlying layer is full OSS ... on top it runs chrome in Xorg
23:25
<Enslaver>
yeah i have one with developer mode enabled but wheres the source? code.google.com probably?
23:25
<ogra_>
and chrome as well as the chormeos desktop pieces arent open afaik
23:25
yeah
23:25
<Enslaver>
k ill check
23:26
<ogra_>
http://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/developer-guide
23:27
its kind of like gentoo ... with a bit debian and ubuntu mixed in
23:28
<Enslaver>
nah, its more fedora and altlinux with a hint of slackware
23:29
<ogra_>
well, it uses the gentoo build scripts, and is fully based on upstart (they even hired the ubuntu upstart maintainer for that)
23:29
the rest comes from debian sources afaik
23:30
its a pretty weird hybrid
23:30
but it works :)
23:31
<Enslaver>
nah its all based on a kernel built by a guy name linus, purchased by SCO and sold to red hat
23:31
therefore, its slackware
23:31
<ogra_>
then it would use a strange tarball based package management system
23:31
<Enslaver>
slackware invented tar :P
23:32
well, them and MIT
23:32
<ogra_>
:)
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