IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 1 January 2013   (all times are UTC)

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05:50* alkisg wonders why we aren't using nbd-client to export localdevs to the server instead of ltspfs...
05:52
<alkisg>
This way we would care about the client supported file systems, we would be able to partition client usb sticks from the server, get the device free space info etc etc
05:52
*wouldn't
05:56* alkisg wonders if CD burning would also work over NBD
05:57
<vagrantc>
alkisg: autounmounting is a little trickier
05:58
<alkisg>
Why so?
05:58
Ah, you mean about the bug report?
05:59
With nbd-client, we'd only export whole devices, not partitions
05:59
The file system mounting part would be done on the server
05:59
Normally, with udisks etc
06:01
<vagrantc>
and if someone yanks the usb stick?
06:01
without it getting umounted?
06:01
<alkisg>
Then nbd-client would timeout and cause an automatic unmount
06:03
With a proper implementation, it should be the same as if the usb stick was yanked on the server
06:03
<vagrantc>
alkisg: so, instead of the suid root stuff we do for ltspfs, we'd have suid stuff that mounts the NBD device and somehow marks it as for that user only?
06:04
<alkisg>
Yes, chown user:user /dev/nbdu1234d1
06:04
<vagrantc>
in theory, ltspfs handles the autounmounting better than that, though
06:04* vagrantc also wonders how many /dev/nbdNN are typically enabled.
06:04
<alkisg>
udev would send a message about the block device being removed, so then all of ifs partitions etc would be unmounted
06:05
<vagrantc>
looks like 16 total...
06:05
<alkisg>
We would created nodes with the suid wrapper script
06:05
<vagrantc>
it supports an arbitrary amount?
06:05
<alkisg>
mkdev etc
06:05
And then nbd-client -d /dev/device
06:05
<vagrantc>
but does the kernel interface support new ones?
06:06
<alkisg>
I don't know about that...
06:08
$ modinfo nbd | grep max
06:08
parm: nbds_max:number of network block devices to initialize (default: 16) (int)
06:09
<vagrantc>
alkisg: so on moderately large servers to support localdevs, they'd need to manually configure that...
06:10
maybe there's a .d directory we could add
06:10
<alkisg>
There is, /etc/modprobe.d
06:10
We could drop a file there
06:12
http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0801.3/3162.html
06:12
Remove the arbitrary 128 device limit for NBD. nbds_max can now be set to any number.
06:17
<vagrantc>
wow.
06:17
128 isn't too bad, although you might have users with 3 devices each
06:17
<alkisg>
An internal disk, a internal cd rom, and a usb stick, yup
06:18
But on bigs setups that can be increased
06:18
Although then I'm guessing people would use load balancing + multiple servers
06:19
Btw, how well does ltspfs handle localapps writing to the same usb stick as apps on the serveR?
06:20
<vagrantc>
even two usb sticks...
06:20
alkisg: i think it's fine- it uses ltspfs to access the same files.
06:21
although you might have file locking issues, not sure.
06:21
one clobbering the other might be possible, if they were writing to the same file
06:22
<alkisg>
With the nbd-client implementation, we could possibly use LOCALAPPS_EXTRA_MOUNTS=/media
06:22
That would include even devices mounted directly on the server, where the user has access...
06:25
<vagrantc>
alkisg: then you've got a round-trip for all the devices
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06:36
<alkisg>
True, that would be a downside when localapps are used extensively
06:37
<vagrantc>
it sounds like an idea worth exploring, for sure
06:38
<alkisg>
I think it would indeed offer benefits when localapps are not used... block devices vs a fuse-based file system...
06:39
But for localapps, fat clients etc, I think the best would be to let the system mount everything locally, and then export the already mounted file system as a directory to the server
06:40
(remoteapps could use that in the fat clients case)
06:45
vagrantc: would you object to a new lts.conf variable, ROOT_HASHED_PASSWD="value from mkpasswd -m sha-512" ?
06:45
For debugging reasons, of course...
06:45
So that people don't have to set a root password, rebuild the chroot, test, then unset the root password, rebuild the chroot
06:46
<vagrantc>
alkisg: so it would add a password hash to /etc/passwd ?
06:46
(or shadow)
06:46
<alkisg>
Yup, using usermod from init-ltsp.d
06:46
<vagrantc>
sounds reasonable to me.
06:46
<alkisg>
Cool
06:46
<vagrantc>
of course, if lts.conf is working, you can just specify SCREEN_NN=shell
06:47
<alkisg>
Yes but it's not exactly the same thing
06:47
E.g. you can't enter root credentials to policykit
06:47
<vagrantc>
ah.
06:48
<alkisg>
And if you only want to troubleshoot one client, and don't want to bother with mac addresses, setting a hashed password globally sounds a bit more safe than enabling screen_02 globally
06:48
(that's minor though)
06:55
Hmm I did get a temporary "file not found" when trying to access a file in <ltsp-client>/media/user/MOUNT from a localapp though
06:56
vagrantc: Why is there an <ltsp-client>/media/root/MOUNT as well as an <ltsp-client>/media/user/MOUNT ?
06:56
<vagrantc>
alkisg: yeah, i see the logic for it.
06:56
alkisg: that's for rdesktop
06:57
<alkisg>
Hmm that could be solved if we created a local "ltsp" user for kiosk, rdesktop etc, right?
06:57
<vagrantc>
if it's feasible to run them as such, sure.
06:57
dunno if rdesktop requires root ...
06:58
we should definitely put as little running as root as possible, if we can
06:58
<alkisg>
I don't think it does, it runs fine from within sessions
06:58
Even DMs are not run as root nowadays
07:02* alkisg is still missing some basic info about ltspfs...
07:03
<alkisg>
What does /run/drives/MOUNT do?
07:03
Why a (empty!) vfat mount appeared there for just a few seconds?
07:03
How does ltspfsd access the device as a file system?
07:08
What does `ltspfs 127.0.0.1:/var/run/drives/VOLUME /tmp/.user-ltspfs/VOLUME` do? There's nothing in /tmp/.user* ...
07:08leio_ is now known as leio
07:10
<vagrantc>
ls /tmp/.user-ltspfs/ is only transiently mounted on it's way to media
07:10
it gets mount --move'ed later
07:10* vagrantc had patches a long time ago to directly mount in /media
07:11
<alkisg>
vagrantc: but where is the actual vfat mount? I can't see it...
07:11
<vagrantc>
it dramatically reduced the amount of code run setuid, but it required that dirs get created in /media/ with write permission of the user.
07:11
<alkisg>
Actually while trying a few minutes ago, even /dev/sdb (the usb stick) was lost! While the /media/user/VOLUME mount point was still working!
07:11
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i think that's in /var/run/drives/VOLUME
07:12
<alkisg>
It's empty though
07:12
<vagrantc>
it unmounts after inactivity
07:12
<alkisg>
Ah
07:12
<vagrantc>
and remounts if someone's asking for a mount
07:12
or asking for files in there.
07:13
having a shell parked in the /media/USER/FOO dir helps with that while debugging.
07:13
i think that's enough to keep it open
07:13
but i could be wrong
07:13* alkisg also put an ls; sleep 1 loop there
07:13
<alkisg>
Yup it was needed, just having a shell there was not enough
07:14
But why unmount the stick after a bit of inactivity? Wasn't a `sync` enough?
07:15
Thanks though I finally got some sense out of ltspfs :)
07:17
Having a shell parked in root@ltsp12:/run/drives/VOLUME is enough to stop the unmounting
07:18
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i don't understand about "Wasn't a `sync` enough?
07:18
"
07:19
<alkisg>
vagrantc: unmounting the usb drive every 2 seconds and remounting it when more data is needed sounds a bit unnecessary to me
07:19
I'm guessing some bug related to unclean unmounts... otherwise why not unmount it only when requested?
07:19
<vagrantc>
many filesystems complain loudly if removed before unmounted
07:19
<alkisg>
Even after "sync"? I didn't know that
07:20
I thought that `sync` meant "write the data, the journal and everything else related"
07:20
<vagrantc>
alkisg: also, things like usb sticks... there's no process for when the device is actually removed
07:20
i think sync also behaves a little different depending on your filesystem
07:21
<alkisg>
So. If I'm not using LTSP. and I do: (1) insert stick, (2) write stuff, (3) sync, (4) unplug the stick without unmounting it
07:21
==> then my system or stick is not "clean"?
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07:22
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i believe so, but am not positive
07:22
<alkisg>
Gotcha, thanks again
07:23
If the unmount helper proves to work in most DEs, maybe it'll help there...
07:23
<vagrantc>
it won't likely have data corruption, so that might be ok
07:23
<alkisg>
So that the user experience is the same both with and without LTSP
07:23
<vagrantc>
alkisg: yes, that's a good move.
07:23
if they happen to manually yank it, it'd be fine, but being able to unmount it woudl be nice.
07:24
<alkisg>
Right
07:24
<vagrantc>
alkisg: would someone be able to run the helper manually an unmount other people's stuff?
07:24
i guess no more than what they could already do
07:25
<alkisg>
$ tail -n 1 /etc/mtab
07:25
ltspfs /media/user/SOTIRIA fuse.ltspfs rw,nosuid,nodev,user=user,uhelper=ltspfs 0 0
07:25
No, because of the "user=user" there
07:25
The helper will run as the user
07:25
Not as root, there's no need for suid there
07:26* vagrantc forgets which parts are setuid
07:28
<alkisg>
lbmount and fusermount are
07:29
So the user runs them, and while they do run as root, they both check the user name/id before allowing unmounts
07:30
OK so to sum up... things I was to see in ltspfs: (1) drop cdpinger, (2) support unmounts from nautilus, (3) run rdesktop, kiosk etc as a user so that the /media/root/VOLUME mount point is dropped
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08:08
<alkisg>
sbalneav: could I also interest you in https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/+bug/1094998 (i.e. drop cdpinger) whenever you have some time... :)
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21:27
<mighty-d>
Hi
21:27
i have a huge problem
21:28
my clients are sending a nbd can not open nbd
21:28
error
21:28
and im not sure how to fix it
21:28
i moved nbd to inetd and i can see it is open on netstat
21:28
and can connect to it on por 2000
21:29
i checked the image path on the tcpd call and it is ok
21:29
can you please help me?
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21:30
<vagrantc>
!release
21:30
<ltsp>
release: please mention the linux distro and release you're using :)
21:30
<mighty-d>
im using ubuntu 12.04
21:30
with a standard ltsp-server-standalone package
21:30
from repositories
21:31
<vagrantc>
you should use nbd-server's configs
21:31
<mighty-d>
ok, so i should stop the service at inetd?
21:31
<vagrantc>
probably.
21:31
<mighty-d>
i changed it because i t wasnt working
21:31
let me do this change
21:32
<vagrantc>
gotta run, hopefull others can help
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21:47
<mighty-d>
ok
21:47
now im getting mounting /dev/nbd0 on /rofs failed
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22:41
<mighty-d>
please help me, im having a bad day with nbd...i dont know why i keep getting the can not open nbd: no such file or directory error
22:41
everything is default
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