IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 6 November 2007   (all times are UTC)

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02:49
<multik>
good morning
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04:56
<osl>
i have a question about LTSP-5 that comes with edubuntu ... is it identical to LTSP-5 that is installed manually ? or edubuntu has its touches and modifications on LTSP-5 ??
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09:07
<prpplague>
nice little write-up on linux.com - http://www.linux.com/feature/120292
09:10
<cliebow__>
prpplague,yeah it is
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09:24
<rjune>
cliebow__: !
09:24
how was BTS?
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09:30
<ronalde>
we're running gutsy (upgrade from feisty) with HP t5725 thin clients. Since a few days we get a boot timeout after the loading of vmlinuz and initrd. The terminal on the clients says "Negotiation:" a waits for 100-200 seconds before actually loading the nbd-root
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09:39
<cliebow__>
rjune: we missed you..
09:39
everyone rolled in Saturday afternoom
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09:43
<ronalde>
we tested it with a dell notebook: same behaviour
09:46
<cliebow__>
Ragnar RonC Jim Glutting jammcq trask warren togami oliver jorge castro eric harrison Gadi francis giraldeau(pardon the spelling
09:46
Moquist
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10:52
<cliebow__>
oh yeah: and that guy with the little black mustache
10:54
<rjune>
?
10:54
who's that?
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10:55
<irule>
hi
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11:16
<cliebow__>
Scottie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
11:17
<prpplague>
cliebow: wow sounds like a whole crowd of ltsp folks was there
11:17
<cliebow__>
oh yeah..warren togami got ltsp5 going in fedora8
11:19* prpplague remembers the good old days of early ltsp dev and usage
11:20
<cliebow__>
prpplague, how far back was that??i started using it in what 2001??ltsp3 anyway
11:20
<prpplague>
cliebow: back in 1999
11:22
cliebow: we (my employeer) did alot of early testing and dev, ended up moving to a hybrid style thin client
11:22
<cliebow__>
ahh the early years..i really miss those irc hackfests...back then i had something to contribute
11:23
<prpplague>
cliebow: then around 2003 my former employeer was under alot of pressure to move to windows based devices, so they dropped all of their linux thin clients, needless to say, i left shortly there after
11:24
<cliebow__>
that is where i am kind of...but it is macintosh-centric
11:24
instead
11:24
<prpplague>
ahh
11:24
cliebow__: i've not done thin client stuff since then, i mainly do handheld stuff
11:25
<cliebow__>
now i remember you mentioning that..have you used tinyos?
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11:26
<cliebow__>
i have shitty clients and shitty monitors...as Gadi says
11:26
<prpplague>
cliebow__: yea, i've done a few builds for testing, but nothing in a commercial product
11:27
<cliebow__>
we have college of the atlantic here in Bar Harbor..doing research on Duck Island bird populations..with "motes " at their disposal..but no one knows how to use em
11:27
<prpplague>
cliebow: one of latest designs - http://www.elinux.org/Hammer_Board
11:27
<cliebow__>
ahh
11:28
so i was trying to create my own job there..
11:28
<prpplague>
hehe
11:29
<cliebow__>
i t would make a pretty good match...nmot far from h ome...using my biology degree...and my captains license...and my li9nux experience
11:30
<prpplague>
cliebow__: indeed, the end users are won't probably complains as much since they are birds, hehe
11:30
<cliebow__>
hahhh!!
11:31
wow hammer is cool
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<prpplague>
cliebow__: thanks we've been working on it for awhile, we are scheduled to start selling it on thursday for $159 for the cpu board, or $229 for a complete dev kit
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12:16
<scrapbunny>
hello I am having problems with applications freezing when students try to close them on edubuntu 7.10 clients. Is there a way to fix this?
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12:20
<sgtpepper>
ping cliebow
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12:25
<sgtpepper>
where can i find ndb.h
12:25
?
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12:29* sutula can't find ndb.h, but finds nbd.h if that's what sgtpepper needs
12:30
<sgtpepper>
sutula: the thing is... I know where to find it, but the source of ltspswapd can't
12:31
<Centaur5>
Can anybody give me an idea of how to troubleshoot why my ltsp client can't load X or login via console?
12:31
<sgtpepper>
Centaur5: ltsp version?
12:31
<vagrantc>
Centaur5: start off with the distro and ltsp version
12:31
<Centaur5>
Ubuntu Gutsy 5.0.39
12:32
<sgtpepper>
vagrantc: all yours
12:32
<Centaur5>
One client works fine and I love it but the other doesn't.
12:32* vagrantc hands it off to one of the ubuntu folks
12:32
<sgtpepper>
vagrantc: Fedora?
12:32
<vagrantc>
sgtpepper: debian
12:32
<sgtpepper>
ohh ok
12:32
<vagrantc>
the gutsy ltsp is bizarre
12:33
<sgtpepper>
ping cliebow__
12:33
<Centaur5>
vagrantc: Really? Are there better ways to do it then?
12:33
<sgtpepper>
Centaur5: Debian has amazing integration
12:33
<sutula>
sgtpepper: I was looking here for Debian: http://packages.debian.org/search?searchon=contents&keywords=nbd.h&mode=path&suite=unstable&arch=any
12:34
<sgtpepper>
or Fedora, with the downside that you have to use LTSP 4.2
12:34
<sutula>
sgtpepper: I don't know what distro you're working with so don't know where to start looking
12:34
<sgtpepper>
sutula: I'm trying to compile ltspswapd in x86_64
12:34
<vagrantc>
Centaur5: well, mainly i haven't had any luck doing the nbd+squashfs+unionfs approach that gutsy uses ...
12:34
<cliebow__>
sgtpepper, waking me up huh??
12:34
<vagrantc>
ltspswapd isn't used on LTSP5
12:35
<sgtpepper>
sorry
12:35
just a quick one
12:35
I promise
12:35
where does the source of ltspswapd looks for nbd.h
12:35
I'm trying to compile it from cvs and I get
12:35
#error I need an nbd.h somewhere. Either install it in <linux/nbd.h> or put it in the current directory.
12:36
<Centaur5>
Well thanks for the help guys. I guess that maybe I'll try to find different hardware to see if that's my problem.
12:36
<sgtpepper>
I have it on /lib/modules/(uname -r)/build/include/linux
12:36
<cliebow__>
Centaur5, trioed a vesa driver??
12:37
<sutula>
sgtpepper: Well, it's here: http://packages.debian.org/sid/linux-libc-dev/amd64/filelist
12:37
You could grab it out of that package
12:37
<sgtpepper>
sutula: for Fedora
12:37
<Centaur5>
cliebow__: Yeah I did, my client that works has SIS video and the one that doesn't is Intel.
12:38
<sutula>
sgtpepper: Sorry, I missed you saying that
12:38* sutula wonders whether the files would be the same
12:38
<sgtpepper>
that's why I'm compiling it
12:38
<cliebow__>
Centaur5, i810? but that shouls just work
12:38
sgtpepper, by the way.warren got ltsp5 going Sunday night
12:39
in fedora8
12:39
<Centaur5>
cliebow__: That's what I thought, maybe there's something else about the motherboard that just doesn't work right.
12:39
<sgtpepper>
cliebow__ awesome :D
12:39
I'll get in touch with him today to make some tests
12:39
<cliebow__>
sgt:it was awesome..first try it ran compiz with very little lag
12:40
Centaur5, Scottie would suggest you boot in terminal mode run startx manually..then lookj the logsa over
12:41
On the client
12:41
to see what is borked
12:42
<Centaur5>
cliebow__: Okay, I'll first try to find out why I can't login via console :)
12:42
<prpplague>
cliebow__: did you get my last message before the server split?
12:43
<cliebow__>
errr.last i got was 159 for the board 229 for the dev kit
12:43
<prpplague>
cliebow__: yea that was the last one
12:44
<cliebow__>
what is in the dev kit??
12:46
<prpplague>
cliebow: carrier board, cpu board, usb jtag , wall-wort, rs-232 cable, usb cable, sdk cd
12:52
<sgtpepper>
can I specify somewhere in the ltspswapd Makefile where to look for kernel-headers?
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12:54
<prpplague>
cliebow__: actually you could make a really small ltsp client out of that, hehe
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13:04
<cliebow__>
id need an awful lot of handholding i am afraid..
13:04
<scrapbunny>
hello I am having problems with applications freezing when students try to close them on edubuntu 7.10 clients. Is there a way to fix this?
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13:11
<vagrantc>
otavio: should we exclude hurd-i386, kfreebsd-i386 and kfreebsd-amd64 from the LTSP builds ?
13:11
otavio: and do you think there are any other arches that we should exclude? s390 ?
13:12
debian builds more arches than i really even know exist
13:14* sutula notes that the m68k autobuilder seems borked, and has been for a while afaikt
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13:22* vagrantc looks at the conflicts and cringes
13:22
<vagrantc>
merging these new split branches is hell.
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13:36
<otavio>
vagrantc: sorry but I can't talk right now
13:36
<vagrantc>
otavio: ok
13:36
<otavio>
vagrantc: check the supported arches and make them explicit
13:36
vagrantc: as I've done for usplash
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14:06
<Q-FUNK>
.s
14:06
!s
14:06
<ltspbot>
Q-FUNK: "s" is Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
14:08
<cliebow__>
where?????????????????????
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14:11
<Q-FUNK>
hm. apparently MIA
14:14
<cliebow__>
must still be travelling from Maine
14:14
...
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14:28
<Q-FUNK>
I guess so
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19:34
<ari_stress>
morning
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20:30
<warren>
Would it be accurate to describe Scott is "lead hacker"?
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20:39
<jammcq>
hey all
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20:43
<jammcq>
hey moquist
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21:14
<warren>
jammcq, hey jim
21:15
<jammcq>
hey
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22:21
<warren>
http://wtogami.livejournal.com/20047.html
22:21
any corrections?
22:24
<vagrantc>
warren: i wouldn't say you convinced me of anything, i'd been pushing for this sort of thing for over a year
22:25
<warren>
vagrantc, well, you agreed to it =)
22:25
vagrantc, they needed convincing
22:25
vagrantc, especially ogra
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22:25
<jammcq>
s/I manage to convince them/We worked together/
22:25* vagrantc is really unhappy the split happened before bzr was synced with debian ...
22:26
<vagrantc>
the merge is really, really difficult.
22:27
<warren>
jammcq, I suppose that's more diplomatic
22:27
<jammcq>
thanks
22:27
<vagrantc>
actually, i had been pushing to split LDM out probably as early as 2005
22:27
within months of creating it
22:28
<warren>
stupid livejournal screwed up the formatting
22:29* vagrantc has had *no* luck with NBD root
22:30
<vagrantc>
i even tried with just tmpfs bind mounts ...
22:30
maybe something badly broken with NBD on debian
22:30
<jammcq>
ok, bed time
22:30
see ya'll tomorrow
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22:31
<warren>
vagrantc, tmpfs bind mounts for what?
22:31
<vagrantc>
warren: the writeable filesystem directories
22:31
<warren>
vagrantc, Fedora has a built-in readonly-root mode that mostly works, so it was trivial for us
22:31
<vagrantc>
warren: like i've been doing with NFS for years
22:33
<warren>
Is there really anything that truly necessitates read-write root?
22:34
I don't see any benefit to it
22:34
if your readonly-root works
22:34
<vagrantc>
what does your readonly-root do?
22:35
<warren>
vagrantc, tmpfs bind mounts of key areas
22:35
<vagrantc>
warren: that's what i'm talking about.
22:35
<warren>
vagrantc, kind of like LTSP... except it is built in as an officially supported OS feaure
22:35
feature
22:35
<vagrantc>
that's what i've been doing for the last 6 years or so
22:36
so anyways, it hasn't worked for me with NBD root using squashfs ... should try ext2 or something one of these days
22:37
to determine if it's really NBD or squashfs that's unstable
22:38
<warren>
nod
22:39
<vagrantc>
that said, having / writeable would make it much easier to ensure all applications work without having to do anything other than install it.
22:40
not particularly useful for a typical LTSP environment, but people are wanting more and more to do crazy stuff, and as thin client hardware gets more powerful (and the support improves), people will want to do more and more local apps
22:41
<warren>
it seems like thin client vendors want to sell slower and cheaper machines
22:42
<vagrantc>
well, slow these days sometimes goes as high as 800Mz
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22:42
<vagrantc>
MHz
22:42
which is way more than needed for a typical thin client
22:43
some people i know have even picked up machines with 512MB of ram ...
22:43
which is *certainly* more than needed for a typical thin client
22:44
and as far as re-using recycled equipment... there's plenty of 1GHz machines around ...
22:46
but my primary interest is getting something that works... NFS, for all it's supposed slowness, is tried and true.
22:47
and re-building the images to export over NBD for any changes seems complicated
22:53
<warren>
vagrantc, not complicated, just slow
22:53
vagrantc, you just keep the source chroot around
22:54
vagrantc, there is some attractiveness to some networks to not use NFS at all.
22:54
vagrantc, and the performance benefits of NBD over NFS are real
22:54
<vagrantc>
warren: i don't disagree...
22:54
<warren>
vagrantc, offloading work from the server
22:54
<vagrantc>
but keeping the source chroot around is prone to "i modified the files- but why doesn't it see my changes" types of issues
22:55
having to maintain the same information in multiple places is ugly at best
22:56
<warren>
true
22:57
vagrantc, there are other benefits
22:57
<vagrantc>
like ?
22:57
<warren>
vagrantc, like every time you redo the NBD image, existing clients are unaffected, because they see the unlinked (but not yet deleted) nbd image, until the last client using that old image disconnects.
22:57
vagrantc, safety despite things changing from under them
22:57
<vagrantc>
well, that's a feature and a bug
22:58
<warren>
The benefits are compelling enough for me to default NBD in the future.
22:58
with optional NFS
22:59
<vagrantc>
as long as people don't automatically drop all support for NFS, that's fine.
23:00
once we get new packages uploaded to debian based on the new source repositories, i'll try and spend more time with the NBD stuff
23:01
<warren>
definitely wont be dropping it
23:03
<vagrantc>
or maybe that should be the next thing i work on ...
23:03
though i really want to get the new sources straightened out
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23:25
<cyberorg>
i am defaulting to nbd root on suse
23:26
using aufs for full rw nbd squashfs image
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