IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 13 July 2007   (all times are UTC)

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03:05
<dave__>
Hi there, is there anyone who has gotten X to work on a VMware LTSP client? The server works great with regular clients.
03:06
<MrMoo>
yup, works well
03:11
<dave__>
How did you do it, MrMoo?
03:11
<MrMoo>
dave__, http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/HOWTO:_miru_directory_server_VMware_LTSP_demo
03:12
an slightly exaggerated example
03:12
<dave__>
Thank you a bunch, man!
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03:24
<multik>
hello everyone
03:25
<dave__>
hi multik
03:25
<multik>
I've a small problem. I've installed edubuntu on my laptop (1NIC) and I'd like to connect thin client to it. I'm connecting these 2 over crossover patch. Edubuntu has default config, no changes made to it.
03:25
Thin client receives IP from edubuntu DHCP server, but complains that TFTP session can't be opened.
03:26
hi dave__ :)
03:26
<dave__>
Try lsof -i | grep LISTEN to see if tftp is listening :)
03:27
(as root, of course)
03:27
<gvy>
multik, is the client known to boot off anything?
03:27
there are lots of broken PXE firmwarez out there
03:27
<dave__>
It receives an ip...
03:27
...that should suffice.
03:27
<multik>
lsof -i | grep tftp is not returning anything.
03:27
<gvy>
you should also try -r blksize for tftpd (google for it, described on syslinux site iirc)
03:28
<multik>
client should receive it's image from edubuntu. It's PXE/etherbootable client.
03:28
<gvy>
once seen that and a switch instead of a crossover helping non-booting client
03:28
(gige server, fast eth client)
03:28
<dave__>
This is what you ought to see: inetd 4816 root 4u IPv4 11709 UDP *:tftp
03:28
<multik>
well I tried with switch. With that config thin client was not even getting an ip.
03:29
<gvy>
ouch
03:29
<dave__>
What does your /etc/inetd.conf look like?
03:29
<multik>
dave__: yes sudo [command] works better.
03:30
<dave__>
Mine has the following line:
03:30
tftp dgram udp wait root /usr/sbin/in.tftpd /usr/sbin/in.tftpd -s /var/lib/tftpboot
03:32
<multik>
dave__: mine too
03:33
<dave__>
Try /etc/init.d/tftpd-hpa restart
03:33
Then see if it is listening.
03:33
(if you are on ubuntu. Names may vary)
03:34
<multik>
restareted tftpd-hpa
03:34
I'm on edubuntu
03:34
7.04
03:35
ok lsof -i still returns correct process entry
03:35
<dave__>
So tftpd is running?
03:35
Did you build a client as per the instructions?
03:35
<multik>
it's preconfigured on edubuntu
03:36
<dave__>
I see.
03:36
<multik>
you've to configure it manually on ubuntu and debian.
03:36
<dave__>
I know :(
03:36
If the tftp service is listening, you can now try to reboot your thin client.
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03:39
<multik>
tried it.
03:39
no go. It gets IP but then says: PXE-E11 ARP timeout (twice) PXE-E38 TFTP cannot open connection
03:39
very strange.
03:40
perhaps it is config quiestion?
03:41
I'm complete newbie in this.
03:41
<gvy>
i'd try running tftpd standalone with -v -v -v -v or the likes
03:41
it would drop considerably more details to syslog then (at least in.tftpd run via xinetd usually)
03:45
<multik>
gvy: how would you do that?
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04:10
<daya>
vagrantc, hi
04:19
vagrantc, still facing sound problem in debian,
04:25
<gvy>
multik, i don't have that .zsh_history at hand (offline system) but basically, stopped xinetd and started in.tftpd by hand, passing it all of parameters from /etc/xinetd.d/tftpd and a couple more to run in foreground and more verbosely
04:25
multik, again: are you sure that client does PXE boot?
04:26
firmware can be broken just enough to pretend successfully it does but never do in fact
04:26
see http://syslinux.zytor.com/hardware.php#network
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04:50
<multik>
gvy: yes client is PXE bootable.
04:50
Would etherbootable client work out of the box?
04:51
<gvy>
multik, it is *declared* or *verified* by *you* as such?
04:51
<multik>
I have bought a box that has commercial BIOS with PXE boot option on it.
04:52
I can reflash it with etherboot boot option and free BIOS.
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04:57
<gvy>
multik, no. did you ever see it booting pxe/tftp successfully?
04:57
they'd often write "pxe" but that would remain a label, not a *working* implementation
04:58
it's so deeply inobvious that became #1 question on my diskless boot troubleshooting list :-(
05:32* gvy is away: I'm bussy
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06:40
<cliebow>
Q-FUNK:ive used a pile of 5260 as clients
06:42
assuming your amigo meant nubus 4260
06:44
/4260/5260
06:46
<Q-FUNK>
cliebow: come again?
06:46
something tells me that you're replying to the wrong guy :)
06:53
<cliebow>
i am a littler behind 8~)\
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07:59
<nepali>
ogra, hello
08:00
ogra, i can see ESPEAKER pointed to client ip after setting SOUND=ture in lts.conf
08:00
ogra, but still the sound comes in server
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08:58
<jamiejcumbria>
any one got real player to work with pulse and or firefox?
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09:09
<ogra>
jamiejcumbria, which distro ?
09:09
(and release)
09:10
<jamiejcumbria>
ogra:Ubuntu Ltsp 5
09:10
<ogra>
which ubuntu release :)
09:12
<jamiejcumbria>
feisty
09:12
<ogra>
(edgy,feisty,gutsy ?)
09:12
ah
09:13
do you have sound elsewhere on the clients working ?
09:13
<jamiejcumbria>
Why do you ask
09:13
yes
09:13
<ogra>
because i changed a lot between edgy and feisty wrt sound ;)
09:13
it should work if you set realplayer to esd output ...
09:14
pulse emulates an esd server as well so apps that are forced to use esound can use that
09:14
<jamiejcumbria>
I don't think you can changed the sound to esd on realplayer 10
09:15
<ogra>
well ...
09:15
there are three options you have ...
09:15
in the user session there are:
09:16
1. a virtual alsa card on top of the pulse connection (teh default for nearly all apps)
09:16
2. esound forwarding through ESPEAKER pointing to the esd emu pulse does on the client
09:17
3. a native pulse forwarding to the pulse server running on the client
09:17
if you type "env" in a terminal in your session you should see ESPEAKER and PULSE_SERVER being set
09:18
(the alsa amu happens through an entry in /home/$USER/.asoundrc.asoundconf)
09:18
realplayer should support one of these ways at least
09:19
(i always thougth they defaulted to esd in old versions and to alsa in newer ones)
09:19
<jamiejcumbria>
Thanks
09:19
<ogra>
well, shame on me i didnt test with realplayer yet
09:20* ogra is sadly not near any thin clients, i'm travelling atm .... i'll test that next week and write up a reciepe
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09:22
<sbalneav>
Morning all
09:23
<ogra>
!s
09:23
<ltspbot`>
ogra: "s" is Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
09:23
<sbalneav>
Hey ogra!
09:23
Still at the sprint?
09:23
<ogra>
yep, last day ... extremly busy with classmate stuff
09:24
i finaly got my image running from the local disk instead of an usb key :)
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09:24
<ogra>
sadly our kernel doesnt like me :(
09:24* kaminski-ltsp-br is back
09:24
<rjune>
ogra: !
09:25
<ogra>
so resume now works, but due to the kernel being nasty and removing all usb devices i have no disk after resume :(
09:25
so it explodes on the first disk access with heavy IO errors
09:25
hey rjune
09:25
<rjune>
that doesn't sound happy
09:25
<ogra>
i have abut 3h left efore we stop here
09:26
rjune, it isnt, but there is not anythng i can do about it i guess
09:26
still poking on it with my powermanagement expert ad parts of the kernel team
09:28
<sbalneav>
ogra: is mithradir around?
09:29
<ogra>
busy, but around
09:29
<sbalneav>
ok, I sent him an email, I'll just wait for him to have idle cycles.
09:29
<ogra>
(he's only doing mobile stuff recently and dropped all other duties)
09:30
<jammcq>
!s
09:30
<ltspbot`>
jammcq: "s" is Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
09:32
<sbalneav>
Hey jammcq!!
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09:38
<mistik1>
Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
09:38
<sbalneav>
Hey mistik1!
09:38
<mistik1>
morning felas
09:39
sbalneav: how did that work out for you?
09:40
<jammcq>
hey mistik1
09:40
<sbalneav>
Haven't looked at it since.
09:40
<mistik1>
heh
09:42
<sbalneav>
Actually, an idea popped into my head last night. Ever have one of those ideas that seems so wonderful, so perfect, that you're SURE if you actually try to implement it, you can only screw it up?
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09:42
<sbalneav>
This is one of 'em.
09:43
it involves sunbird calendaring.
09:43
And a way to share global calendars.
09:43
<mistik1>
Yea, I know the feeling
09:43
<sbalneav>
with a database.
09:43
and....
09:43
... (wait for it) ....
09:44
A fuse filesystem that makes calendar entries in a database look like an icalendar file :)
09:47
<mistik1>
THis is what you were going to use the tunnel for?
09:49
<sbalneav>
no
09:49
the tunnel was for something else :)
09:49
<mistik1>
oh
09:49
I was just having a moment thinking about what would happen to the data if there was a disconnect
09:50
bad thoughts mistik1
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10:20
<MrChicken>
Hello
10:20
I'm trying to get ltsp running on an ubuntu feisty server
10:21
when I try to download the ltspfsd i get a message that I need ...
10:21
ltsp-client package
10:21
but when ltsp-client is about to get installed
10:22
it says "do not install this on a regular machine"
10:22
<sbalneav>
yep
10:22
don't
10:22
All you need to do is install ltsp-server-standalone
10:22
<MrChicken>
so my question is how do I get local devices enabled?
10:23
<sbalneav>
then do a "sudo ltsp-build-client"
10:23
<mistik1>
Speaking of which I'll be writting a ebuild for those packages today
10:23
<sbalneav>
Followed by a "sudo ltsp-update-kernels"
10:23
Followed by a "sudo ltsp-update-sshkeys"
10:23
and voila
10:24
<MrChicken>
Ok... lemme do that
10:24
btw did the ltspfsd come out for fedora?
10:25
<sbalneav>
No one's packaged it for fedora yet, as far as I know.
10:26
<MrChicken>
and... how can it be donde?
10:26
cuz I have ltsp running on fedora (and now I'm trying to get it on ubuntu to be able to have local devices)
10:26
so if you guys guide me
10:26
<sbalneav>
Somebody in the fedora project needs to start working on getting ltsp5 natively working on Fedora
10:26
<MrChicken>
I'll do the dirty work and put it up on the wiki or something
10:26
<mistik1>
sbalneav: I want to get with you sometime on packaging ltspfs
10:27
<MrChicken>
:(
10:28
<sbalneav>
Debian and Ubuntu have native packages, and I know OpenSuSE is actively working on a port.
10:28
And dberkholz here is working on a gentoo port.
10:28
mistik1: sure.
10:29
<MrChicken>
Lets say I'd be interested in working a bit on the fedora port... I would need some guidance tho
10:29
<sbalneav>
MrChicken: I know eharrison and warren Togami himself were working on it at one point, but I don't know how far they got.
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10:30
<sbalneav>
Maybe ping them, and we're certainly here to help
10:30
MrChicken: have you ever packaged anything for Fedora officially?
10:30
<ogra>
sbalneav, both -update- commands are run by ltsp-build-cliebt
10:30
<MrChicken>
sbalneav ... nope :(
10:30
<gvy>
MrChicken, well i think we could help a bit
10:30
<ogra>
you really only need https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPQuickInstall
10:30
<gvy>
mail {mike,led}@altlinux.org in case
10:31
we've done ltsp5 on alt, sort of
10:31
<ogra>
(yes, ltspfs is installed by default as well)
10:31
<gvy>
http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/IntegratingLtsp too?
10:31
ogra, btw there's LDM page, care to review? http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LDM
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10:31
<dberkholz>
howdy sbalneav
10:32
<mistik1>
guys, Last I heard ltspfs has parts that are installed on both the server and client space. Is this still the case?
10:32
<dberkholz>
hoping to get some stuff together for oscon
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10:32
<mistik1>
dberkholz: howdy
10:32
dberkholz: How far have you gotten so far?
10:33
<dberkholz>
mistik1: same as a few months ago, haven't spent really any time on it
10:33
been busy writing
10:33* MrChicken will brb
10:33
<dberkholz>
mistik1: seems like a few ltsp people will meet up in a couple weeks, which will be a good opportunity to get some work done
10:33
<ogra>
gvy, you could have kept positive statement from vagrant as well (i think he made one later) it looks like he doesnt like ldm at all thats way :)
10:34
gvy, thanks for putting that together :)
10:34
<gvy>
ogra, hm, i've tried to gather everything related -- maybe just went afk or missed that
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10:34
<dberkholz>
i'm gonna try to leave wednesday night of oscon open for ltsp
10:34
<gvy>
ogra, if you have that log, maybe add that? painting things b/w is rather bad, try to avoid that
10:34
*i try
10:36
<sbalneav>
mistik1: yeah, the upstream source is one big thing, but it splits into a server side package, and a client side package
10:36
<ogra>
gvy, hmmm, seems i remember wrongly
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10:36
<ogra>
you actually quoted 100% exactly
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10:38
<dberkholz>
hm, i still need to fix up the ltspfs build system for that
10:39
<sbalneav>
That ldm page needs a total rewrite.
10:40
<ogra>
sbalneav, its a start
10:40
<sbalneav>
I'll put some grey cells to it this weekend
10:41
<ogra>
lets finish ldm2 and then fill it with actual implementation details
10:41
<sbalneav>
right.
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10:45
<gvy>
ogra, whoops 8)
10:45
ogra, let's hope it's temporary 100% :-)
10:45
<jamiejcumbria>
anyone know how to get flash player 9 to use pulse or esd please?
10:46
<gvy>
esddsp?
10:46* gvy is back (gone 05:13:57)
10:46
<sbalneav>
Man, I will be SO glad when gnash works 100%
10:47
<ogra>
jamiejcumbria, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EdubuntuFAQ
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10:55
<jamiejcumbria>
orgra: I install flash player through firefox as it promted. I have now installed flashplayer-noefree but know sound still. Is firefox may be still looking at the flash player it installed. As I have set firefoxrc to aoss is this right
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10:56
<ogra>
just read the FAQ
10:57
you shouldnt fiddle around with the settings the package installs
10:57
err, oh, i have no idea how or if the flashplugin installed throuhg firefox works or what it would break
10:58
(thats why teher is a package for it, its teasted and proven to work)
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11:15
<K_O-Gnom>
ogra: my ltsp is working :-) but without mouse ive got to look where my mouse /dev/ node is .. have you a hint for me? (its a PS2 mouse)
11:17
<ogra>
K_O-Gnom, try adding psaux to /etc/modules in the chroot
11:17
chroot being /opt/ltsp/i386
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11:23* gvy is away: ~
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11:30
<bob_too>
anyone have experience with hp t5135?
11:33
<K_O-Gnom>
ogra: how can i add that?
11:34
<ogra>
edit /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/modules and add a line reading: psaux
11:34
:)
11:34
err
11:35
that should be psmouse not psaux, sorry
11:35
<K_O-Gnom>
ogra: thats all?
11:35
<ogra>
yes
11:35
<K_O-Gnom>
nice :-)
11:35
(if it work)
11:35
<ogra>
then reboot the client and check if that mouse works
11:36
well, actually its supposed to autodetect that, i will have to check why thats not the case
11:36
<K_O-Gnom>
ogra: you remember that im on version 4.2?
11:37
<ogra>
oh
11:38
well, tats a different thing and i actually have no idea, there is likely some lts.conf entries you need to make
11:38
<--- does only ltsp5
11:38
did you look at the wiki ?
11:38
<K_O-Gnom>
ogra: wich?
11:40
ogra: i only have a file called modules.conf is that that file?
11:41
<ogra>
look at the wiki, i have no idea how that was handled in the old ltsp ....
11:42
<K_O-Gnom>
can i find the wiki on ltsp.org?
11:42
<ogra>
yes
11:42
<K_O-Gnom>
ok i will look there thanks
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12:00
<vagrantc>
joebaker: did you try and catch me the other day ?
12:02
<joebaker>
I think so vagrantc, but at the moment I cannot recall why. I'm courious though about seeing a sample of the ldmswapd.conf file.
12:03
<vagrantc>
oh, there's not much to it
12:05
joebaker: i presume you mean nbdswapd.conf
12:05
<joebaker>
I've seen some "Segmentation Fault" error messages when watching
12:05
the LTSP boot process. It could be hardware problems. Specifically
12:05
there's this box who's motherboard has an onboard NIC which I couldn't
12:05
disable in the bios and the Etherboot project doesn't have a driver for it
12:05
(that I can find yet) so I put another NIC into it.
12:07
<vagrantc>
regarding nbdswapd.conf, you can put any of the variables used in nbdswapd ... i.e. SIZE, RUN_MKSWAP, SWAPDIR, SWAP, NBD_SERVER_OPTS
12:07
<K_O-Gnom>
ogra: hmmm i tried the PS/2 Wheel mouse part (caution german version) here http://ltsp.mirrors.tds.net/pub/ltsp/docs/ltsp-4.1-de.html#AEN1877
12:07
<joebaker>
--- Yes... nbdswapd.conf. I seem to have one working fine. Just tested a file with the SIZE=64.
12:08
It worked fine.
12:08
<vagrantc>
joebaker: as far as the segfaults ...
12:08
joebaker: if you could get more specific about what exactly it says, maybe could have some idea what it's about
12:09
<joebaker>
vagrantc: I'm guessing the segfaults are somehow related to the dual nic issue combined with swapfile usage. It's a wierd issue that I don't think we should get too distracted with.
12:10* vagrantc doesn't like guessing
12:11
<vagrantc>
joebaker: which version of the ltsp packages are you using, and on which version of debian ?
12:12
<K_O-Gnom>
dberkholz: ping?
12:12
<joebaker>
Ubuntu Feisty 7.04 LTSP 5 (from Ubutnu) Hacked to use XDMCP instead of LDM.
12:12
<dberkholz>
K_O-Gnom: pong
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12:13
<ogra>
K_O-Gnom, that should be about rigth i guess (even though its 4.1)
12:13
<K_O-Gnom>
dberkholz: did you know how i can get my ps2 mouse working on my gentoo ltsp client? (i tried the howto on http://ltsp.mirrors.tds.net/pub/ltsp/docs/ltsp-4.1-de.html#AEN1877 but it dont help i tried too cat /dev/psaux or /dev/input/mice but no reaction ..
12:14
<dberkholz>
does ltsp 4.x do local audio?
12:14* ogra leaves now for the "canonical office distro sprind ending" party
12:14
<dberkholz>
K_O-Gnom: check out the gentoo ltsp guide, i don't do ltsp4 so i can't help you
12:14
<ogra>
*sprint
12:14
<K_O-Gnom>
dberkholz: wich guide?
12:15
<dberkholz>
K_O-Gnom: gentoo.org docs, it's somewhere on there.
12:15
<ogra>
vagrantc, its a shame i cant come to the freegeek thing ... move it a day !
12:15
<vagrantc>
ogra: pfft.
12:15
<dberkholz>
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/ltsp.xml looks good
12:15
is there a google bot in here?
12:15
<joebaker>
vagrantc: do you want me to send you the dmesg output from the box in question?
12:15
<ogra>
dberkholz, nope
12:15
<vagrantc>
joebaker: sure, paste it to the pastebot
12:15
!pastebot
12:15
<ltspbot`>
vagrantc: "pastebot" is The LTSP pastebot is at http://pastebot.ltsp.org. Please paste all text longer than a line or two to the pastebot, as it helps to reduce traffic in the channel. A link to the content will be pasted in the channel.
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12:22
<K_O-Gnom>
dberkholz: oh this guide there iss written to load usb-uhci but i get a failure then ..
12:22
<joebaker>
vagrantc: I'll try to get back on the issue in a couple hours. It's lunch time and I need to go cuddle up with my Python book and learn more about coding.
12:23
<dberkholz>
K_O-Gnom: i'm sorry, i can't really help you with ltsp 4.
12:23
the guy who did that in gentoo retired
12:24
<K_O-Gnom>
dberkholz: damn :-(
12:26Guaraldo has joined #ltsp
12:26
<K_O-Gnom>
is here anybody who has an idea for my mouse problem?
12:31Guaraldo has quit IRC
12:35
<K_O-Gnom>
hmm ok the usb mouse workes ... but the ps2 mouse not .. :-(
12:42Guaraldo has joined #ltsp
12:45Guarald1 has joined #ltsp
12:45Guaraldo has quit IRC
12:45Guarald1 has quit IRC
12:46Guaraldo has joined #ltsp
12:50irule has quit IRC
13:12MrChicken has quit IRC
13:13bob_too has left #ltsp
13:15
<Q-FUNK>
is there any way to make lrsp-build-client retry fetching a package it missed because of a connection timeout, rather than completely fail?
13:18
<K_O-Gnom>
lol die neue SG staffel iss zu genial ..
13:18
shit wron chan
13:23
<rhombus>
My LTSP client loads and runs the kernel, then the kubuntu splash screen. It gets about 1/5 of the way on the progress bar, then hangs, and the screen goes blank
13:24
I cannot even go to the console with CTRL-ALT-F1
13:27
<K_O-Gnom>
crap i configured my X and Gnome for german language and now my client restarts every time when the X starts
13:33
<ogra>
K_O-Gnom, is sie ?
13:34
<K_O-Gnom>
ogra: ja :)
13:34* ogra kriegt nur ZDF im hotel
13:35jamiejcumbria has joined #ltsp
13:35
<jamiejcumbria>
Any one know how to get flash player 9 work with pulse audio. When the sound is running pulse audio volume control shows several sources but no sound.
13:35
<K_O-Gnom>
ogra: ich krieg kein fernsehn in seim zimmer
13:36
<ogra>
jamiejcumbria, did you install libflashsupport as the howto advises ?
13:39
<jamiejcumbria>
no i missed that. Opps I`m just installing now
13:40
<K_O-Gnom>
hmm ive got to test if i can increase my resolution .. (atm i only can go to 1024x768 pixels)
13:40
<Gadi>
rhombus: does it work if you turn off the splash? (remove splash from /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/pxelinux.cfg/default)
13:40shale has joined #ltsp
13:40
<shale>
howdy!
13:41
is anyone familiar with this script? http://www.mail-archive.com/ltsp-discuss@lists.sourceforge.net/msg23599/rdesktop and if so can you tell me if it works or is necessary with LTSP5?
13:42
<rhombus>
Gadi: I tried removing that, but the splash screen still appears.
13:43
<Gadi>
rhombus: you removed the word "splash"?
13:43
<rhombus>
Gadi: Now I have deleted /opt/ltsp/ and re-run sudo ltsp-build-client
13:43
<sbalneav>
shale: Well, for starters it will only work if your password is "pepper"
13:43
<rhombus>
Gadi: yes
13:43
<Gadi>
thats impossible
13:43
<rhombus>
Gadi: Now that I have rebuilt the client, I am going to try removing the word 'splash' again
13:43
Gadi: Perhaps I removed it from the wrong file
13:43
<sbalneav>
rhombus: Were you and I talking last night?
13:44
<rhombus>
sbalneav: no, though I'm sure it was a nice conversation :)
13:44
<jamiejcumbria>
ogra:thanks it now works
13:44
<Gadi>
rhombus: btw, what kind of client is it?
13:44
<sbalneav>
I had someone else who tried to remove "splash" and it still kept displaying it.
13:44
<vagrantc>
Gadi: i almost merged your screen scripts branch the other day :)
13:44
<rhombus>
Gadi: A Wyse S50
13:44
<Gadi>
vagrantc: heh, finally - now that its largely obsolete
13:45
<vagrantc>
Gadi: heh
13:45
<rhombus>
Gadi: Okay, I edited the wrong file
13:45
<vagrantc>
Gadi: well, people keep asking about the rdesktop scripts, so i figured i should at least pull that
13:45
<shale>
sbalneav: that last line is just for vnc.
13:45
do you know if the script is designed/should work with ltsp5?
13:45
or if its even necessry
13:45
<sbalneav>
No idea
13:45
<rhombus>
Gadi: I edited /opt/ltsp/i386/boot/pxelinux.cfg/default
13:45
<sbalneav>
Why don't you try it and see?
13:45
<Gadi>
shale: it prolly wont work without modification
13:46
<shale>
i am, and have been
13:46
<Gadi>
there's no build_x4_cfg in ltsp5 ;)
13:46
<shale>
but am looking for confirmation
13:46bobby_C has joined #ltsp
13:47
<shale>
thank you Gadi... just want to know if i'm barking up the wrong tree or not :)
13:47kaminski-ltsp-br has quit IRC
13:47
<sbalneav>
Yeah, looking at it more closely, no it wont work.
13:47
Gadi: has anyone written an rdesktop script for ltsp5 yet?
13:48
<shale>
when i simply add SCREEN_02=rdesktop to lts.conf i get SCREEN_SCRIPT: rdesktop not found... so I figure i'm missing something.
13:48
<Gadi>
sbalneav: me, once upon a time - but vagrantc is only now merging it ;P
13:48
<shale>
if i could get this to work, i have a dozen schools here in Alaska that will looove ltsp :)
13:48
<Gadi>
it was part of my rewrite of the screen scripts
13:48
shale: it is not hard to implement
13:49
since you dont need any of the x configuration stuff
13:49
<sbalneav>
shale: Why not just log them into the regular desktop, then have them launch rdesktop from there
13:49
<shale>
Gadi: can you provide any tips?
13:49
<Gadi>
all you need is to execute rdesktop rfom xinit
13:49
or do as sbalneav says
13:49
<shale>
sbalneav: they need it to go to the winblows login screen automatically
13:49
<Gadi>
and run rdesktop from the server
13:49
<rhombus>
Gadi: Okay -- I removed 'quiet' and 'splash' from default, and now it works
13:49
<Gadi>
set up a session on the server to do that
13:50
<sbalneav>
Gadi++
13:50
<Gadi>
rhombus: does the Wyse use a geode chipset?
13:50
<rhombus>
Gadi: yes
13:50
<Gadi>
yeah, I have a similar issue on a geode here
13:50
usplash doesnt like it
13:50
<rhombus>
Gadi: Hmn... I see.
13:50
<Gadi>
but, it seems Im the only one
13:50
guess not
13:50
:)
13:50
<rhombus>
Gadi: okay, well, it's just eye candy, so I can live without it
13:51
Gadi: other than that it works beautifully
13:51* Gadi needs to get ogra a thin client, and then it'll get fixed :D
13:51
<rhombus>
Gadi: Who is ogra? Your hardware tester?
13:51* ogra is drunk, sitting in the canonical office at the party :)
13:51
<dberkholz>
ogra: didn't take long to get drunk..
13:51* rhombus is wondering who ogra is.
13:52
<ogra>
dberkholz, well, 7 beers atm :)
13:52
<Gadi>
ogra is my drunk link to the universe (well, really to main ;) )
13:52
<ogra>
heh
13:52
<dberkholz>
ogra: was referring to time. you only left for there an hour and a half ago
13:52* ogra is enjoying the view and angry that he has to et down 27 floors for a cigarette now
13:52
<rhombus>
Gadi: It boots great now, in high res -- how can I get it to run at something higher than 60 Hz?
13:53
<ogra>
dberkholz, well, the whole ubuntu dev crowd worked their ass off this week, its well deserved that we get drunk in the end ;)
13:53
<Gadi>
rhombus: X_VERTREFRESH and X_HORZSYNC
13:53
<rhombus>
Gadi: Damn -- I had those in there and deleted them because I thought it might be the cause of the hangs :P
13:53
<shale>
i hope this isn't too newbish of a question, but can someone point me at how to use xinit to launch something?
13:54
<Gadi>
rhombus: and, my guess is it is using vesa for the driver. you won't have accelerated graphics unless you get the amd driver in the chroot
13:54
<ogra>
Gadi, i have reintroduced X_MODE ;) i'l upload that on monday
13:54
<Gadi>
ogra: I see it in gutsy
13:54
<dberkholz>
ogra: i'm all for work hard, play hard
13:54
<ogra>
its not in yet
13:54
dberkholz, yeah
13:54
<Gadi>
thats weirs
13:54
I see it in the code
13:54
<rhombus>
Gadi: Thanks for the tip. I just check the X log to find out what it's loading, correct?
13:54
<ogra>
dberkholz, lets have a beer at OSCON ;)
13:54
or five or so :)
13:55
<dberkholz>
ogra: sounds good.
13:55
<ogra>
dberkholz, btw i didnt leave, its the same room :)
13:55jamiejcumbria has quit IRC
13:55
<ogra>
(one complete floor)
13:55
<Gadi>
rhombus: on the client, yes
13:56
<rhombus>
Gadi: right.
13:58
<Gadi>
ogra: so, I know ur drunk, but I see a preseed line for X_MODE in the gutsy ltsp-client-setup
13:58
<ogra>
we dont use any preseeding anymore
13:58
thats for debian
13:59
and old
13:59
<Gadi>
no preseeding?
13:59
<ogra>
the new X config is using Xorg --configure and sed to change/add values
13:59
<rhombus>
Gadi: can I use dselect in the client chroot?
13:59
<ogra>
there is no need for preseeding anymore
13:59
<vagrantc>
he wrote that when he wasn't drunk, too
13:59
<Gadi>
ogra: ah
14:00
does the old code work?
14:00
<vagrantc>
on debian
14:00
<Gadi>
or no, because there's no dpkg info for preseeding X_MODE
14:00
ah
14:00irule has joined #ltsp
14:00
<ogra>
Gadi, i didnt drop it yet, we can add an option to force the old behavior
14:01
X_MODE is ignored by the ubuntu X package ... in normal installs it breaks more than it helps
14:01
<Gadi>
no, its just good to know, because i am working on a project right now that I used the gutsy chroot as a basis for ;)
14:02
<ogra>
ah
14:02
i think its in the bzr branch already
14:02
just not packaged yet
14:02
<Gadi>
I will make a call to xrandr after X loads, for now
14:02
:)
14:02
or something
14:02
<ogra>
revision 385 to 386 in https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ltsp/gutsy-ltsp
14:03
http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ltsp/gutsy-ltsp/revision/ogra%40ubuntu.com-20070709151737-1o1kndd0or2ktdg4?start_revid=ogra%40ubuntu.com-20070709151737-1o1kndd0or2ktdg4
14:03
wow, my changelog grammar sucks
14:03
<Gadi>
is it me, or are you faster when ur drunk?
14:03
:)
14:03
<ogra>
heh, might be
14:04* ogra gets another beer ...
14:04
<rhombus>
Gadi: Does the amd driver have another name? I don't see it here
14:04
<Gadi>
rhombus: you need to add the universe repo to the chroot
14:04
and update
14:04
its in universe
14:04
xserver-xorg-video-amd
14:06
<rhombus>
Gadi: okay -- having never done this before... how do I add the universe repository to the chroot? I am a Debian/Ubuntu noob
14:06
<Gadi>
sudo (your editor of choice) /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/apt/sources.list
14:06
add universe to the end of the first line
14:06
save
14:07
<rhombus>
Gadi: I can do that if I'm already in the chroot, right?
14:07
<Gadi>
sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 apt-get update
14:07
<Q-FUNK>
any 'git' guru here? :)
14:07
<Gadi>
ah, sure
14:07
in the chroot just:
14:07
vi /etc/apt/sources.list
14:07
(change)
14:07
apt-get update
14:07
apt-get install xserver-xorg-video-amd
14:07
<rhombus>
wa-chung
14:08
Gadi: thanks... in progress
14:08
<Gadi>
np
14:08
then, you need to add:
14:08
XSERVER=amd
14:08
to lts.conf
14:08
and possibly:
14:08
XORG_SYNC_RANGES=Y
14:08
too
14:08
<rhombus>
When I have some time, perhaps in the fall, I'd like to help update the LTSP documentation
14:09
<Gadi>
(I have found the driver to not get all resolutions unless the timings are explicitly in the xorg.conf)
14:09
(which is what the latter statement does)
14:09
<rhombus>
because I hate having to bother people
14:09
Gadi: thanks!
14:09
<Gadi>
np
14:09
speaking of which, ogra: does Xorg --configure insert the timings by default?
14:10* K_O-Gnom is eating nut corners :-)
14:13
<rhombus>
Do I need both X_VERT_REFRESH and X_HORZSYNC? I'm being lazy. I don't know what the HORZSYNC range is.
14:15
<Gadi>
1. X_VERTREFRESH
14:15
2. I believe for ubuntu you do, but you can try to guess - if its an LCD, it prolly wont explode
14:15
:)
14:16
try: 30-80
14:16
or, boot the client, and run ddcprobe at the prompt
14:16
:)
14:17
so many options for the lazy amongst us
14:18
<K_O-Gnom>
ogra: have you ever seen a goa'uld fighting with anoter goa'uld?
14:18
<Gadi>
bbiab
14:18
<K_O-Gnom>
ogra: with their hands not with weapons ..
14:18
(in prison)
14:19
<rhombus>
Gadi: thanks -- I'll try ddcprobe. I do that from the CTRL-ALT-F1 local console, correct?
14:24kaminski-ltsp-br has joined #ltsp
14:27
<K_O-Gnom>
crap ... my client restarts first some times befor he loads the X stable ..
14:30
<rhombus>
Gadi: When I try to invoke "shutdown" from the login screen, the S50 hangs. Reboot works, however.
14:38zodman has joined #ltsp
14:38
<zodman>
hi there
14:38
im need a suggest from a desktop software for a p3 server with 512 ram + 10 clients
14:38
icewm ?
14:40
<ogra>
Gadi, for *some* setups
14:40
K_O-Gnom, nope, i actually didnt :)
14:40
ill see my first episode on wed.
14:41
<K_O-Gnom>
ogra: :-) did you record it?
14:46* kaminski-ltsp-br is back
14:47
<K_O-Gnom>
is it normal that when i start a shell with X_SCREEN_XX = "shell" that its with root rights? and can the user when he/she is using tat shell change something in the client OS (/opt/ltsp/i386) or the server?
14:51
<ogra>
K_O-Gnom, i'll see the repetition in one year ;)
14:51* ogra now goes for something to eat
14:52
<ogra>
my flight goes at 8 so i wont be online for aday or so ...
14:52
bye
14:52ogra has quit IRC
14:52
<K_O-Gnom>
ogra: guten appetit (dont know how to write in english :-)
15:02J45p3r_ has quit IRC
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15:05zodman has quit IRC
15:07
<rjune>
Gadi !
15:10
<sbalneav>
Hey rjune
15:13
<rjune>
sbalneav: howdy
15:23Gadi has left #ltsp
15:24
<shale>
can someone point me at how to use xinit to launch something when the thin client loads??
15:25
<sbalneav>
shale: How's your scripting ability?
15:27rhombus has left #ltsp
15:29
<sbalneav>
http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~gideon/ltsp/ltsp-gadi-screenscripts/annotate/gadi%40ltsp.org-20061107190605-fc300ba24d363b91?file_id=rdesktop-20061107190418-f180xtxx9movmujg-1
15:29
<shale>
sbalneav mine is fairly crappy but i have a perl programmer on my staff
15:30
<sbalneav>
http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~gideon/ltsp/ltsp-gadi-screenscripts/annotate/gadi%40ltsp.org-20061107190605-fc300ba24d363b91?file_id=rdesktop.wrapper-20061107190406-z1eqxc7ufrb13t0j-1
15:30
Those two bits of code are gadi's ltsp5 rdesktop screen scripts.
15:30
<shale>
ok... cool!
15:30
can you tell me where to put them?
15:31
<sbalneav>
the rdesktop script will need to go in /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/lib/ltsp/screen.d
15:31
the rdesktop.wrapper will need to go in /usr/bin
15:31
err
15:31
/opt/ltsp/i386/usr/bin
15:31
YMMV
15:32
<shale>
YMMV ?
15:32
<sbalneav>
Your Mileage May Vary
15:33
<shale>
ahh :)
15:33efra is now known as efra_away
15:33
<shale>
trying them now
15:33
<sbalneav>
Internet speak for "This may work as is, or you may have to fiddle with it, or it may not work at all"
15:33
<shale>
roger that
15:33
it's at least *something* which is better than what i've been trying ;)
15:34
<K_O-Gnom>
have good night folks
15:35K_O-Gnom has quit IRC
15:38
<shale>
i get "can't open usr/lib/ltsp/setupx
15:38
but "locate setupx" yields nada on the server
15:39
<sbalneav>
You wont need that, just comment it out.
15:39
X setup's been done already.
15:40
<shale>
right
15:40J45p3r has joined #ltsp
15:41
<shale>
ok getting closer :)
15:42
now i get "bad display name, exiting"
15:43
<vagrantc>
well, the setupx stuff handled some things
15:43
that is still needed
15:43
that's why i haven't merged the patch yet
15:44
<shale>
setupx isn't on my system... is it a separate program?
15:44
i didn't see it in apt-cache search
15:45
<vagrantc>
need to grab it from gadi's screenscripts branch
15:45
<shale>
ahh ok
15:46
<vagrantc>
the tty parsing stuff is still needed
15:46
just not the x configuration stuff
15:46
<shale>
do you know where i should put setupx on the server?
15:47
<vagrantc>
wherever the rdesktop script looks for it
15:47
<shale>
ah
15:47
<vagrantc>
well, relative to /opt/ltsp/i386
15:47
<shale>
thanks
15:47
(i feel like such a dumbass) :)
15:47
this is what happens when the sysadmin is on his honeymoon
15:47
Mr. Yacko has to figure stuff out :)
15:53
<sbalneav>
Oh, was setupx still doing stuff? We should just yank that out, and put it in the rdesktop script.
15:54
<vagrantc>
that's one way to go
15:54
<shale>
ok now i get "fatal server error: unrecognized option: X"
15:55
but i'm not sure where to look for the errant option
15:59
/opt/ltsp/i386/var/log/syslog is empty
16:00
same with dmesg
16:00
where do all these errors go?
16:01rjune has quit IRC
16:02
<shale>
/var/log/syslog is showing some stuff, but not the xinit errors
16:04
<ltsppbot>
"sbalneav" pasted "test rdesktop script" (60 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/213
16:04
<sbalneav>
shale: try that
16:06
<shale>
wow thank you, i will
16:06
should that replace my current /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/lib/ltsp/screen.d/rdesktop ?
16:08
<sbalneav>
yep
16:08
I have no idea if it will work.
16:09bobby_C has quit IRC
16:09
<shale>
hehe ok well i'll let you know shortly
16:10
well... it gets me further than anything else has... i get the gray background with the big X cursor
16:10
but the code is caught in some zany loop and i'm not sure where to look for error
16:10
<sbalneav>
Do you have rdesktop installed in the chroot?
16:10
chroot /optl/ltsp/i386
16:11
dpkg -l | grep rdesktop
16:11
<shale>
root@ltspe:/# dpkg -l | grep rdesktop
16:11
ii rdesktop 1.5.0-1build1 RDP client for Windows NT/2000 Terminal Serv
16:11
oops sorry
16:11
yes its installed in the chroot
16:12
<sbalneav>
While you're in there
16:12
ls -la /usr/bin/rdesktop.wrapper
16:12
<shale>
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 56 2007-07-13 20:32 /usr/bin/rdesktop.wrapper
16:13
<sbalneav>
which rdesktop
16:14
<shale>
how do you mean?
16:14
<sbalneav>
type the command
16:14
which rdesktop
16:14
<shale>
/usr/bin/rdesktop
16:14
<sbalneav>
ok
16:15
Well, dunno.
16:15
I'd have to look at it closer, as I don't have a windows server to test against.
16:15
<shale>
well, you've helped us greatly anyway
16:16
when my perl programmer gets back from lunch i'll go over this with him
16:16
<sbalneav>
have your script guy poke at it.
16:16
<shale>
isn't there a place i can look at the logs for this stuff?
16:16oh207 has joined #LTSP
16:16gepatino has quit IRC
16:16
<shale>
or tell ltsp to write a log somewhere?
16:16
<sbalneav>
It does
16:16
/var/log/
16:17
on the client
16:17
<shale>
ooo
16:17
on the client
16:17
hrm
16:17
<sbalneav>
but you won't see any output from any errors here, only the xorg output.
16:17
and if you're getting a grey screen, then that won't be of much help to you, as X is starting.
16:18
Something isn't firing up with rdesktop.
16:18
<shale>
yah
16:19
how long with that pastebin webpage be alive?
16:21
<vagrantc>
maybe forever
16:22
<shale>
ok (adding resources to our internal wiki)
16:22
i'm surprised getting rdesktop w/ ltsp5 isn't easier... seems lots of folks would use this.
16:23
my school districts have a ton of crappy ole puders but also a bunch of Windows-only software they need to use.
16:23
so, it seems like a perfect match
16:23
my sysadmin had it working with ltsp4.2, but i'm Mr. Latest Greatest i guess
16:29
<rcy>
how can I get xdm to show me a list of hosts offering remote logins via XDMCP? gdm has menus where I can find the hosts, but I dont want to use that in this case.
16:29perseu has joined #ltsp
16:29
<moquist>
whiprush: hey
16:30
<sbalneav>
xdm?
16:30
<perseu>
It is possible to update Xorg 6.9 to Xorg 7.1 in Ltsp 4.2 ?
16:30
<sbalneav>
As in, really, really old xdm?
16:30
perseu: No one's bothered.
16:31
Most development's focusing on LTSP5
16:31
<perseu>
sbalneav: I need it to use newer graphics card of my thinclients
16:32
<rcy>
sbalneav: yes, as in the really really old xdm that doesnt have a bazillion dependancies to pull in if i want to add the gdm package to my openbsd box.
16:32
<sbalneav>
rcy: I don't think so.
16:33
Running openbsd? Security buff?
16:33
<jammcq>
perseu: the problem with upgrading Xorg from 6.9 to 7.1 is that 6.9 was the last 'Monolithic' build. 7.1 is a Modular build. they've completely redone the entire build process of Xorg
16:33
<rcy>
I have several different systems here
16:33
<jammcq>
and shoe-horning that into the LBE would be a huge task
16:34
<rcy>
sbalneav: you don't think so what, exactly?
16:34
<perseu>
sbalneav: LBE from CVS has Xorg 7 ?
16:34
<jammcq>
perseu: no, it has 6.9
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16:34
<sbalneav>
rcy: I don't think there's a way to get it to display a list of hosts.
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16:35
<rcy>
sbalneav: hmm, but there is a way to still do a remote login isnt there?
16:35
<perseu>
jammcq: hummm...
16:35
<sbalneav>
rcy: Well, xdm is what gives you the remote login.
16:36
<perseu>
jammcq: it is possible to include in LBE an module for newer graphic cards ?
16:36
<vagrantc>
possible yes. easy, no.
16:36
<rcy>
there is a /etc/X11/xdm/chooser binary... im not clear what that does
16:36
<jammcq>
perseu: only if that module source code works with Xorg 6.9
16:36
<vagrantc>
LBE is no longer being worked on, really.
16:37
<perseu>
jammcq, vagrantc: for nVidia GForce 6100 onboard chipset
16:37
<sbalneav>
rcy: I haven't used xdm for 7 years or so, so you'd have to fool around with it.
16:38
<vagrantc>
rcy: can you just configure a chooser ?
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16:39
<perseu>
pci_scan returned nVidia Corporation unknown chipset (0x03d0)
16:40
<rcy>
sbalneav: vagrantc: yeah, ive been reading the manpages, and thrashing around, it seeming more complex than it ought to be. was hoping i could cheat and get some easy help here :) ill keep poking around.
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16:41* moquist sends this conversation to his boss as further evidence that Edubuntu is right for schools at this point, and K12LTSP is not what we want to run until Fall 2008.
16:41efra_away is now known as efra
16:43
<sbalneav>
rcy: If you're concerned about security, which I assume you must be as you're running openbsd, keep in mind that any of the X dms ([xkg]dm) pass passwords over the network in cleartext.
16:43
<rcy>
sbalneav: there are other reasons to run openbsd than security
16:43
<jammcq>
moquist: what happens in the fall of 2008 ?
16:43
<rcy>
but thats good to know.
16:44
<moquist>
jammcq: the school year after the one we're prepping for now
16:44
jammcq: we're making a roadmap decision now that we'll have to live with until next year; that's all I mean
16:44
jammcq: fortunately, I think Edubuntu has won. :-D
16:45
I'm excited to see the squashfs stuff in Gutsy.
16:45* moquist should try it out now
16:45
<jammcq>
i'm thinking Gutsy is the release we've all been waiting for
16:46
<moquist>
Yeah, I'm wondering about the wisdom of rolling out Feisty Edubuntu everywhere...maybe we'll do that, and then carefully consider a mid-year upgrade
16:47
<whiprush>
moquist: what's up
16:47
<perseu>
I have installed ltsp 5 on Bedian Etch and no success
16:48
the clients only gets a bash shell login
16:48
no graphic screen
16:48
<vagrantc>
perseu: how did you install it ?
16:48* vagrantc is assuming Debian
16:49
<perseu>
vagrantc: following a link in the ltsp wiki (sorry, Debian)
16:49
<vagrantc>
perseu: could you tell me which page it was ?
16:50
<perseu>
vagrantc: http://wiki.debian.org/LTSP/Howto
16:50
<vagrantc>
ok.
16:50
<shale>
perseau: did you also install a gui?
16:50
<perseu>
vagrantc: yes, kde
16:50
vagrantc: my server is OK
16:51
<vagrantc>
perseu: dpkg -l ltsp* ; dpkg --root=/opt/ltsp/i386 -l ltsp*
16:51
<perseu>
vagrantc: sorry, I am at home now
16:52
vagrantc: what I must get from that ?
16:52
<vagrantc>
ok, well, when you're at the machine you're trying to fix, come back on irc and we can try and help.
16:53
<perseu>
vagrantc: the v.5 was not more on the machine
16:54
<vagrantc>
perseu: i don't understand you ... ?
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16:54
<perseu>
vagrantc: I get it off for v 4.2
16:55
vagrantc: I was deinstalled version 5 because it didnt worked for me
16:55
<vagrantc>
ah.
16:55
well, if you'd like to try again, come back when you're at the machine and we can try and help.
16:56
<perseu>
vagrantc: OK, thanks
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17:11
<TTT_Travis>
I need to run my LTSP local, I added the user to the group video on my host computer chrooted to /opt/ltsp/i386 and then booted my network client
17:11
I can start X as root
17:12
but when I start as my other use I get
17:12
X: user not authorized to run the X server, aborting
17:27
nevermind go it
17:28
next question
17:28
I booted off NFS - when I try to write a file or whatever in my vterm is says readonly filesystem if I change my nfs settings on the host will I be able to write to the filesystem?
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17:36
<vagrantc>
TTT_Travis: you'll want to use unionfs or something like that
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17:48
<TTT_Travis>
vagrantc but is there a way to use NFS?
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17:48
<TTT_Travis>
because I think it would work fine for this purpose, the only time anything gets written is every few minutes
17:48
not like frequent read/writes
17:49
I changed my /etc/exports
17:49
/opt/ltsp *(rw,no_root_squash,async)
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17:49
<TTT_Travis>
and restarted nfs but I still can't write
17:49
<vagrantc>
TTT_Travis: i wouldn't recommend it.
17:50
<TTT_Travis>
vagrantc why is that?
17:50
<vagrantc>
because i don't want to support it :P
17:50
<TTT_Travis>
is there a reason? like will things not work right or something?
17:50
<vagrantc>
yeah, that's the main thing.
17:51
it's just going to be a headache.
17:51
<TTT_Travis>
ok I guess I will just make mountpoints for the stuff I need to be able to write to
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17:58
<mistik1>
hey pops
17:59
<jammcq>
hey buddy
17:59
what's up?
18:02
<TTT_Travis>
how do I edit the fstab of my clients>
18:02
do I just edit /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/fstab?
18:03
<jammcq>
what version of ltsp ?
18:03
<TTT_Travis>
or is there more to it?
18:06
5.0.7
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18:08
<jammcq>
yes
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18:10
<TTT_Travis>
vagrantc do you know how to atleast make the /home writable on my clients?
18:10
client*
18:15
<jammcq>
the root filesystem is mounted read-only, cuz you don't want multiple clients stepping all over themselves. if you want to write to the users home directory, you'll have to mount /home as a read-write filesystem
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18:22
<vagrantc>
TTT_Travis: /etc/fstab is dynamically generated at boot
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18:32
<TTT_Travis>
vagrantc how do I set I thing to it?
18:36
like how would I add custom entires
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