IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 11 February 2013   (all times are UTC)

00:00
<markit>
Phantomas: this is the but about epoptes assistance, maybe is for you ;P https://bugs.launchpad.net/epoptes/+bug/1117158
00:01
<Phantomas>
markit: I've seen it! Just wondering if you talked about it with Alkis
00:02
<markit>
Phantomas: he troubleshoot and told me to report the bug
00:02
is also cited in the bug report
00:03
Phantomas: "<alkisg> ...meh so the epoptes devs are too geeky to use the menus, that's where the problem was :P"
00:03
Phantomas: " <alkisg> markit: do file a bug in epoptes about that"
00:04
Phantomas: or does it work there?
00:04
<Phantomas>
markit: I think it works for me in GNOME, though :-\
00:04
So it may be a KDE related issue
00:04
I'll check it ;)
00:04
<markit>
thanks a lot
00:05
can we test?
00:05
I mean, alkisg has gnome too
00:05
he tried from command line and from menu probably
00:06
<Phantomas>
Sure, I'll ask him
00:06
<markit>
better, don't ever never trust me or my memory
00:06
expecially at late night ;P
00:08
<Phantomas>
markit: btw, is this happening when opening a remote terminal, a local, or both?
00:09
I guess a local, right?
00:09
<markit>
Phantomas: ? I want to assist you
00:09
so you open epoptes UI and here I do
00:09
$ xterm -e socat tcp-listen:5500,keepalive=1 stdio,raw,echo=0
00:09
in a console
00:10
then you select "remote assistance, textual", and enter my public IP
00:10
does it answer your question?
00:10
<Phantomas>
Oh, completely forgot we had this feature :P :P
00:10
<markit>
hahaha
00:10
it happens :) is late night there too
00:10
<Phantomas>
I thought you were talking about the "Open terminal" feature
00:11* markit does not know about THAT feature but bluffes
00:11
<markit>
no, not that one
00:11
;P
00:12
<Phantomas>
Clients → Execute → Open terminal
00:14
Anyway, consider it fixed ;)
00:54
<markit>
btw, in chroot wouldn't be good set swappines to a low level like ?
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02:18
<Enslaver>
found it, ldm is hardcoded to $(prefix)/lib and not $(libdir)
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03:08
<oo-dragon>
hi every one ^_^
03:09
I want to setup remote access to my LTSP server (edubuntu), but I don't want to mess up the SSH / terminal clients by doing so. Recommendations?
03:11
<Enslaver>
sshd?
03:17
<oo-dragon>
indeed, but its already setup for the terminals ... can i get a 2nd instance? or can i enable normal logins? I tried connecting to it before but it denied me
03:17
unless i'm wrong and its actually not running or something
03:32
<jammcq>
you don't need a 2nd instance
03:32
it should just work
03:32
and if it's not running, then your thin clients wouldn't be able to log in either
03:49
<Enslaver>
YAY, 32 bit and 64 bit client and server are working, NFS and NBD boots using unionfs COW mode on both through dracut, preparing rpm's and getting ready for testing
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04:18
<oo-dragon>
hmm odd... maybe its not binding to my 2nd nic then.. I'll look into that
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07:36
<trimor>
Hi, I need help, i am running ubuntu based ltsp server with microsoft dhcp. my client machine is one other subnet and during the pxe-boot i am dropped to busybox after error that setting up nbd-client Error: socket failed: network is unreachable any clues guys
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07:39
<trimor>
Hi, I need help, i am running ubuntu based ltsp server with microsoft dhcp. my client machine is one other subnet and during the pxe-boot i am dropped to busybox after error that setting up nbd-client Error: socket failed: network is unreachable any clues guys
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07:40
<trimor>
ne one active ?
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07:47
<trimor>
ne one active ?
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07:48
<knipwim>
no, i'm active :)
07:53
<muppis>
:D
07:55
<elias_a>
Seems like a dchp prob to me.
07:56
<muppis>
Yeah.
07:57
<elias_a>
Let's hope he gets back.
07:59
<warren>
Enslaver: how does nbd cow work? two nbd devices?
08:00
Enslaver: https://bitbucket.org/hirofuchi/xnbd/wiki/Home
08:01
Enslaver: this looks interesting... an alternative nbd server implementation
08:02
Enslaver: scenario 2 looks interesting
08:02
Enslaver: "xNBD can also work as a proxy server to another target server. This feature is used for distributed Copy-on-Write NBD disks; one read-only disk image is shared among multiple clients, and updated disk data is saved at each proxy."
08:02
although the latter would be better to just throw away
08:16
Enslaver: how's nbd cow performance?
08:21
Enslaver: good work finding the TTY and libdir issues
08:25work_alkisg is now known as alkisg
08:27
<alkisg>
Hyperbyte: around?
08:34
<warren>
Enslaver: looks like I removed the K12LINUX flag from ldm.spec in 2011
08:34
Enslaver: I'd say just rip out the K12LINUX code from ldm. it doesn't work and nobody has time to fix it.
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08:55
<Hyperbyte>
alkisg, around!
08:55
<alkisg>
Hyperbyte: there's an error in one location, it's in turkey instead of greece... how could we change it?
08:56
<Hyperbyte>
Have the link?
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08:56
<alkisg>
http://www.ltsp.org/stories/viewstory/?story_id=171&secret=7bc4f0
08:56
Should go to: 38.322788,23.320456
08:56
<Hyperbyte>
I meant the link to edit it. :-)
08:57
LTSP underwater!
08:57
<alkisg>
No, I don't have those links
08:57
<Hyperbyte>
How awesome.
08:57
<alkisg>
:)
08:57
Also, is there a way to get a count of greek entries in the map?
08:59
<Hyperbyte>
Sure
08:59
http://www.ltsp.org/stories/
09:00
Can you PM me which e-mail address is associated with that story?
09:00
Because I can't find it by name....
09:01
Oh wow
09:01
No I did find out
09:01
*it
09:01
By accident
09:01
You have the edit link as a private message
09:02
<alkisg>
Hyperbyte: thanks!!! :)
09:02
<Hyperbyte>
Welcome. :)
09:02
You found the Greek schools count? :P
09:02
<alkisg>
Hyperbyte: about the greek location count?
09:02
Nope
09:03
<Hyperbyte>
http://www.ltsp.org/stories/
09:03
<alkisg>
Just the percentage
09:03
<Hyperbyte>
Hover over the big blue blob that is Greece on the pie chart.
09:03
<alkisg>
Ty again :)
09:03
<Hyperbyte>
I don't see how you can find the percentage and not the count. :P
09:03
You must've overlooked it. :)
09:05
<alkisg>
I have a touch screen, no mouse handy :P
09:05
<ogra_>
warren, with nbd cow the nbd server creates the writable file on the server side ... which indeed means more network traffic and slowness
09:05
<alkisg>
That's a good thing though, it saves client RAM
09:06
The problem with nbd cow is that squashfs is read-only
09:06
<ogra_>
sure sure, and you can have it created in a tmpfs so disk IO wont matter
09:06
but you still will have extra network traffic
09:06
<alkisg>
So ext or (compressed) btrfs should be used instead
09:06
It's good traffic, it's disc traffic that shouldn't end up in RAM
09:06
<ogra_>
i guess for this thats fine, but you wouldnt want to run a fat client that way
09:07
<alkisg>
E.g. if the client need to write 500 mb, they'd better go in the server side than in client side
09:07
<ogra_>
s/this/thin/
09:07
<alkisg>
Thins and fats blend a bit with localapps
09:07
<ogra_>
alkisg, well, a tmpfs on the client is definitely lots faster than a disk image on a server
09:07
<alkisg>
If an update cron job runs, it quickly exchausts the client RAM
09:07
<ogra_>
well, depends on the client
09:08
<alkisg>
It's the equivalent of `apt-get update`, many mb of traffic
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09:52
<meamy>
hi all, I'm searching for a way do enable Lockscreens on fat clients but since they dont cache the authentication I'm a bit in a dead end. Is there a solution for that problem?
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10:03
<Hyperbyte>
meamy, yes. LDAP.
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10:11
<ltspuser_86>
hi
10:11
You can put a client in a Windows domain and set the user's personal folder on the thin client
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10:13
<ltspuser_86>
hi
10:14
You can put a client in a Windows domain and set the user's personal folder on the thin client
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10:18
<meamy>
Hyperbyte: ok than i have to to this, it is i good idear anyway (for that problem it's a bit oversized but it's mybe usfull for a bunch of other things). My solution in mind was more a bit a Screensaver hack with ssh as authentication backend, but ldap is the correct way i guess
10:19
<Hyperbyte>
meamy, LDAP is never overkill.
10:19
(oversized)000
10:20
Think of it like this: where would you rather store your user account credentials? In two plain text files (/etc/passwd and /etc/shadow), or in a secure database?
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10:22* alkisg would definately prefer the text files wrt security :D
10:22
<Hyperbyte>
alkisg, why?
10:23
<alkisg>
It's more easy to hack into "more" software layers than into "less" software layers
10:24
<Hyperbyte>
I agree.
10:24
<alkisg>
But sure LDAP has a lot of other reasons to be selected over plain text files
10:24
<Hyperbyte>
But there's more to hacking than just software layers. More important is the amount of interfaces one has to access data.
10:24
<meamy>
Hyperbyte: yep specially if you deploy a large installation, I just have to finde out how ldap plays together with the ltsp-cluster environment? but it shut be fine i hope.
10:25
<Hyperbyte>
Once I managed to hack a server by obtaining the /etc/passwd and /etc/shadow files via a broken PHP script.
10:25
I would argue that there's hundreds of ways to obtain /etc/passwd... there's only one way to get to LDAP, namely port 389.
10:25
<alkisg>
meamy: one alternative would be to patch ldm to store the password hash into /etc/shadow
10:26
That one could even be accepted upstream, we've talked about it
10:26
<Hyperbyte>
meamy, LDAP doesn't need to work with LTSP-Cluster. LDAP works with PAM and NSS, that's enough.
10:26
<alkisg>
The other devs just don't want that option to be the default
10:28
<meamy>
plaintext files are not so pad in security reason, the problem is that there are on the appserver witch is not realy secure at all (by design ) so to source this data out to a safer place is a good way to minimize the risk
10:29
<alkisg>
If people get root access to your app server it'll be a piece of cake to get the user passwords no matter where you store them then
10:29
But anyways /me doesn't care at all about security :)
10:30
<Hyperbyte>
alkisg, not if your LDAP server is seperate.
10:30
<alkisg>
Hyperbyte: you think installing keyloggers is hard? :)
10:30
<Hyperbyte>
alkisg, well - okay. I'll give you that.
10:30
But
10:31
You still won't have "all" my user accounts/passwords, just the ones that have been used
10:31
<meamy>
alkisg: keylogger on the appsever? if you using fat clients thats not a problem
10:31
<alkisg>
Right, but remember that I can also install my own ldap clients in your software stack :)
10:32
<Hyperbyte>
meamy, as if you couldn't install the keylogger in the chroot. :-)
10:32
Or better, hack LDM to just mail you the password.
10:32
alkisg, you still won't have -all- my passwords.
10:33
<alkisg>
It depends, but ok, let's say you have a balance of having more ways to penetrate a system (more app servers, more applications) vs having less hacked passwords
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10:33
<alkisg>
I don't know much about ldap, but the ldap servers I've seen support queries
10:34
<Hyperbyte>
LDAP is a query protocol, yes
10:34
<alkisg>
So if a school wants to see the passwords of its students, it has access to do so
10:34
But students can't see other student's passwords, ok
10:34
<Hyperbyte>
LDAP stores passwords hashed.
10:34
You can't see LDAP passwords.
10:34
<alkisg>
That's the same as /etc/shadow
10:35
<Hyperbyte>
I know that.
10:35
<alkisg>
No difference there, you need brute analysis after you get the hash
10:35
<Hyperbyte>
I'm not sure what kind of hashing algorithm LDAP uses, but it's probably comparable.
10:35
<alkisg>
Yeah I imagine some sha* method, it should be configurable in both ldap and /etc/shadow
10:36
Anyways, /me really isn't interested about security, so will stop there :)
10:36
<Hyperbyte>
Either way, LDAP isn't about security. I just think it's a nice bonus.
10:36
<meamy>
alkisg: you can log how often passwords are requestet so you can detect if some trys to steal your data. to detect if sombody copy your shadow file is hard to detect
10:36
<alkisg>
meamy: pam already logs authentication attempts to /var/log/auth.log
10:37
<Hyperbyte>
For me, biggest advantage is syncronizing 1 account accross four servers, one of which is over 600 kilometers away. :)
10:37
<alkisg>
If someone has access to ldap, he can query other user's hashes
10:37
Anyways /me really stops wrt the security topic
10:38
<Hyperbyte>
Today I had to create a user account for a new employee
10:38
<meamy>
alkisg: but you can log this events you cant log if somebody just copy a file on an already pwnd server
10:38
<Hyperbyte>
They need access to:
10:38
<alkisg>
If it's pwnd then what prevents him from copying the database files themselves?
10:39
<meamy>
alkisg: because they are on a diffrent maschine
10:39
<Hyperbyte>
- network server (unix) - terminal server (unix) - asterisk (voip server) - mail server (remotely) - php application
10:39
I created 1 account in LDAP... that's it. :-)
10:39
<meamy>
hyperbyte so true
10:40
<alkisg>
Right, that's one of ldap main advantages
10:40
<Hyperbyte>
That was my main reason for deploying LDAP. I was sick of the whole business of creating/removing/updating accounts everywhere continuously, as well as the problems that arise when user ID's get mismatched and you synchronize files
10:40
<alkisg>
Not that it wouldn't be possible to write php authentication plugins for /etc/shadow, they just haven't done so
10:41
<Hyperbyte>
alkisg, http://pecl.php.net/package/PAM
10:41
:)
10:41
I just never got that idea until I started using LDAP. :P
10:42
Or maybe it didn't exist when I deployed LDAP.
10:42
<alkisg>
Yup, but that's not for remote systems
10:42
<Hyperbyte>
That's true.
10:42
<alkisg>
While ldap can be for remote systems too
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10:43
<alkisg>
Hyperbyte: so anyway, are you configuring ldap on the chroot?
10:43
Or just on the appserver?
10:43
<Hyperbyte>
alkisg, over here (thin clients) only on the terminal server
10:43
At the radiostation (fat) also on the clients.
10:43
There I also use NFS mounted /data where users store files, in different folders with different group permissions
10:44
<alkisg>
Do you have any notes for ltsp server + fat chroot ldap configuration?
10:44
<Hyperbyte>
That's where LDAP becomes especially useful for me.
10:44
<meamy>
yep that would be very interesting
10:44
<Hyperbyte>
alkisg, not really. I've never used OpenLDAP, only 389-DS on Fedora.
10:44
<alkisg>
But you have an ubuntu chroot, don't you?
10:45
Or the client side is very easy?
10:45
<Hyperbyte>
My network servers or virtual hosts are always Fedora. Ubuntu runs seperately or inside a virtual machine.
10:45
The client side is a piece of cake really.
10:46
LDAP configuration with 389-DS is a little bit easier I believe. I think they're actually also porting it to Debian/Ubuntu.
10:46
<alkisg>
Yeah, slowly...
10:46
What I hate about ldap is that the usual user management tools don't work with it
10:46
<meamy>
the docs
10:46
<Hyperbyte>
Client configuration is here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LDAPClientAuthentication
10:47
<alkisg>
And that there's no standard way to configure it
10:47
<Hyperbyte>
alkisg, what do you mean "standard way to configure it"?
10:47
<alkisg>
The schemas or however else they're called
10:47
So that I could just do "apt-get install ldap" and it would just replace /etc/passwd without me doing anything else
10:48
<Hyperbyte>
alkisg, ldap doesn't replace /etc/passwd
10:48
But I get what you mean. On Fedora there's system-config-auth
10:48
<alkisg>
Sure it provides an alternative means for storing contacts or whatever configuration or other data the user wants
10:49
<Hyperbyte>
alkisg, no, I mean - LDAP functions -on top of- /etc/passwd
10:49
<alkisg>
The package I'm talking about could be called "ldap-shadow-emulator"
10:49
And PAM etc etc I got that part
10:49
<Hyperbyte>
Your /etc/passwd file still works. I have a few local guest accounts on my terminal server, which are not in LDAP but in /etc/passwd
10:49
<alkisg>
But as far as the plain user is concerned, a simple package could exist that would automate all of those changes
10:50
<Hyperbyte>
Well, it exists in Fedora....
10:50
I believe also in Ubuntu
10:50
Or at least I've seen it.
10:50
<alkisg>
gnome-users still doens't work with ldap in fedora
10:50
<Hyperbyte>
You apt-get install some package, it asks for LDAP server URI and other server details and sets it up
10:50
<alkisg>
And neither does useradd
10:50
<Hyperbyte>
I've seen it, just not a clue which package it was.
10:51
alkisg, well, gnome-users I don't know. It could support LDAP maybe, not sure. Never used it. But "useradd" shouldn't work with LDAP. If it does, you can never add people to /etc/passwd again
10:51
<alkisg>
useradd --target=shadow
10:51
That could be very easily solved
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10:52
<Hyperbyte>
Well the real solution would be that PAM has not only central authentication, but also central user management
10:52
And that there's pam_useradd or pam_useredit or whatever
10:53
<alkisg>
Sounds good, yeah
10:54
<Hyperbyte>
useradd are the tools made for /etc/passwd... it's supposed to not work like ldap. I wouldn't want ldapadd to work with /etc/passwd either. :)
10:54
*like -> with
10:55
<alkisg>
OK my problem isn't how the tool would be called, or if it would be derived from the useradd code base or from some other code base, it's that the existing tools don't work with ldap
10:55
gnome-users doesn't, I've tried that
10:56
And it's silly for user management front ends to have to support multiple protocols
10:56
That's a job for backends
10:57
<Hyperbyte>
I agree, so what you're addressing is a PAM issue. :)
10:57
Meanwhile, you could just install one of the graphical LDAP management tools.
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11:04* alkisg is thinking of telling Phantomas to support LDAP in our sch-scripts user management tool
11:04
<alkisg>
We have things like mass user creation (based on classrooms) that no other tools offer
11:09
<Hyperbyte>
:)
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11:11
<administrator>
alkisg
11:11
<alkisg>
Hello
11:11administrator is now known as Guest61634
11:11
<alkisg>
administrator: /j #ts.sch.gr
11:12
<Guest61634>
alkisg: ola kala;
11:12
alkisg: orestis edo
11:12
<alkisg>
Ναι, γράψε /j #ts.sch.gr για να μπεις στο ελληνικό κανάλι, εδώ είναι το Αγγλικό
11:12
<Guest61634>
ok
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11:13
<Hyperbyte>
Oh no, the Greeks are invading again. :)
11:15
<meamy>
!ltsp translate
11:15
<ltsp>
Error: "ltsp" is not a valid command.
11:15
<meamy>
!translate
11:15
<ltsp>
Error: "translate" is not a valid command.
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11:19
<Hyperbyte>
meamy, LTSP translations are done via launchpad.
11:22
<meamy>
Hyperbyte: thanks but it was more like a joke if the bot could please translate the greek letters for me :D
11:23
<Hyperbyte>
Ah
11:23
Straight over my head.
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11:30
<alkisg>
We've put #ltsp as the support channel for epoptes... so many teachers come here and think they can talk in Greek, so I tell them to join the greek channel instead :)
11:33
<effenberg>
fu ldap, there should be a tool like 'ap' in linux
11:34
<Hyperbyte>
effenberg, explain.
11:35
<effenberg>
ap provides a simple method of propagating user account profiles
11:35
between machines.
11:36
ap is not part of any currently supported standard; it is an
11:36
extension of AT&T System V provided by The Santa Cruz Operation,
11:36
Inc.
11:37
<Hyperbyte>
Right.
11:45
<effenberg>
Aljex wrote a shell script some years ago, afair
11:45
yeah he did
11:46
http://www.aljex.com/bkw/linux/aap
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12:03
<joshu>
hi i'm trying to understand if ltsp is what I'm looking for. I have a few laptops which I want to convert to thin clients, but they should connect to a windows terminal server via rdp. I have evaluated a commercial solution called IGEL Universal Desktop Converter but it has too many limitations. Is ltsp suitable?
12:09
<effenberg>
it is
12:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJmMcNPBgig
12:14
<ogra_>
joshu, ltsp can use windows appservers ... but uses wired networking for booting (no PXE booting in WLAN)
12:16
<joshu>
effenberg: thanks for the link I just watched it.
12:16
let me provide some more details of what I need to accomplish
12:19
the laptops will be located in remote locations at all times. what that means is that by themselves the users can't do anything other than power them on and view a very simplified locked down desktop. in order to access the windows terminal server they need to connect to a local LAN network or alternatively via 3G usb modem. The next step is connecting via Cisco VPN to the corporate network and finally via RDP. Now they can start working
12:20
<warren>
ogra_: thin clients do very little writing
12:20
of / at least
12:20
maybe in /home
12:20
but that's sshfs
12:21
<ogra_>
warren, well, they need to boot at a usable speed at least :)
12:24
<joshu>
does ltsp still make sense for the usage I described?
12:31
<ogra_>
joshu, that sounds more like you want a minimal OS and login manager that do a remote connection ... (so not the netbooting part of LTSP) ... i would take a look at ubuntu lightdm remote desktop feature
12:31
it offers exactly that
12:38
<joshu>
ok because i've been searching for options the last few days and i was contemplating doing something like ubuntu minimal with fxce etc...but i haven't been able to figure out how i could manage configuration changes and updates in a central way similar to commercial solutions with a management server.
12:39
<ogra_>
well, you dont install a local desktop ... just have the option of the login manager ...
12:39
and you manage your users on the server side centralized ... as you would do with ltsp
12:40
(that indeed requires your users to be online while working, but this doesnt differ from ltsp)
12:43
<joshu>
yes the users are managed by active directory, but i meant the laptop thin clients themselves...have you used IGEL Universal Desktop Converter?
12:49
<ogra_>
nope
12:50
<effenberg>
maybe you'd stick your own suitable linux together and deploy it with clonezilla
12:55
<joshu>
effenberg I'll have a look at clonezilla...
12:56
here's a video showing the IGEL thing I mentioned if you're interested http://vimeo.com/37578730
12:56
<ogra_>
that what i mean when proposing a minimal ubuntu with just lightdm remote desktop :)
12:56
*that's
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13:09
<Nadeem>
hi
13:10
Need some help regarding ltsp
13:11
I installed edubuntu 12.04.1 on a system in my lab, at the time of installing, i selected ltsp.
13:14
did a custom installation and made it dual boot with Windows 7, Installation finished, booted. Now when boothing other systems in the lab, they just no boot from lan
13:15
The system had only 1 NIC, and I skipped in installation,did that mess it up. Or am I doing something wrong?
13:24
<joshu>
ogra_ in your last message you're referring to the video?
13:24
<ogra_>
no, to clonezilla
13:24
(which is just SW to clone PC installs)
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13:31
<joshu>
ok i follow. so i should research using ubuntu mini.iso installing that adding things like cisco vpn client and freerdp client. then add lightdm.
13:32
the user boots the system and is greeted with a login prompt and when the user credentials are entered behind the scene a it would check whether on lan or a usb modem needs to be connected and once that is established use the user's credentials to connect via cisco vpn and finally present the user with the rdp session?
13:36
<ogra_>
well, it kind of relies on the fact that the user is online ... and that the user selects the right session
13:36
but that doesnt differ from ltsp as i said above
13:39
<joshu>
so lightdm itself only provides the login prompt which once the user enters his/her details will launch an rdp session. however as you say the use must be online so that logic is not something that lightdm handles, correct?
13:39
<ogra_>
no, it provides also the rdp and cisco vpn backend communication
13:40
lightdm just runs network manager/ modem manager, it sits in your panel like on a normal desktop
13:40
buut it will indeed only connect to something if a connection is up
13:41
<joshu>
i guess i need to see it in action to understand how it would work as i've never done anything like this before....
13:42
ogra_ what would you suggest that i do to get something working quickly for proof of concept?
13:45
<ogra_>
what you said above, mini.iso, then install the "xorg, lightdm and unity-greeter" packages
13:45
that should give you all you need
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13:45
<ogra_>
(and then clone that install with clonezilla if you like)
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13:47
<joshu>
ok i will try to set it up as you've suggested...thanks so much for your patience and help for now ;)
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16:43
<knipwim>
sbalneav: hey Scott, you gonna be at the meeting tonight?
16:47
<Enslaver>
warren: xNBD looks interesting, i might consider it for the next release, but eventually want to move away from NBD all together. It's application isn't very form fitting in todays world whereas iscsi is pretty much adopted by everyone. That opens up the possibility of using a NAS to store the NBD images and letting the NAS handle any types of overlays, by configurable option of course. NBD cow isn't too bad of a performance hit, alt
16:47
hough I haven't found a way to tell it where to place its overlay (.diff) files it creates, by default in the images folder. Shoot me a message when you are up, I think we have a dev meeting in 2 hours, its 6:47 HST now.
16:48
<alkisg>
"letting the NAS handle any types of overlays" ==> NAS can do overlays?
16:48
<Enslaver>
NAS can do anything your server can
16:49
Heck, i think net app even uses linux kernel
16:49
<alkisg>
So why not make it do nbd? :P
16:49
<Enslaver>
Not to mention there is freeNAS / openNAS / openfiler
16:49
<alkisg>
Is iscsi a kernel module?
16:49
Or AoE?
16:49
<Enslaver>
Yes
16:50
iscsi is in the kernel, dracut supports it
16:50
the issue is wether jumbo frames must be enabled on the switch dependent on the size of the image i guess
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16:51
<Enslaver>
Also want to move away from the BSD iscsi target implementation, dragging iscsi down
16:51
<alkisg>
And is it as easy to configure as nbd-server/nbd-client?
16:52
<Enslaver>
not as easy
16:52
you have a target and initiator
16:52
the initiator goes out and scans for targets
16:53
the good thing about that is it doesn't limit you to a squashed filesystem, you can actually share a physical block device, fibre or LUN
16:55
<alkisg>
NBD doesn't limit you to squashfs either
16:55
I've shared ext, btrfs, .vdi's, partitions and physical disks with NBD
16:55
<Enslaver>
right, uses the same concept as iscsi, creating a block device that is sharable over the network based on your specifications
16:56
<alkisg>
If we're to use a block device, I think having a server where we can send patches is a good thing
16:56
xnbd sounded good but the nbd maintainer said they weren't very interested in cooperation
16:57
Having the cow part on the server sounds very good, we don't even need a custom initramfs that way
16:58
<Enslaver>
yeah that would open up a ton of very fun possibilities
16:58
<alkisg>
Ideally, what I'd like to have is:
16:59
when the "ltsp-server" daemon starts, it would get a btrfs snapshot of the "server" disk (be it a real ltsp server or just a template client that hosts nbd-server)
16:59
And remove any sensitive information from that, and export it via nbd to LAN
17:00
With compressed btrfs, we'd be able to have all nbd benefits without any of the drawbacks
17:01
Anyways, those are very far in the future... btrfs isn't production ready yet
17:01
<Enslaver>
Like what kind of sensitive information? /home?
17:01
<alkisg>
What ltsp-cleanup does now
17:01
home, accounts, db passwords, whatever
17:03
<Enslaver>
All well and good for flat files, I see that having issues with databases
17:03
<jammcq>
seems too easy to expose sensitive information
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17:04
<jammcq>
ie, the default would be to expose EVERYTHING unless it's been added to the cleanup script
17:06
<Enslaver>
well conceptually isn't the concept of the target image a throw away generic file structure with sensitive data layered on top?
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17:09
<ogra_>
yeah, not a very good security model
17:10
<jammcq>
Enslaver: yes, but if he's talking about taking the server as the base, then you'd get whatever is on the server
17:10* ogra_ would still keep a chroot fo rteh clients
17:11
<ogra_>
mixing the installs just asks for trouble in the long run
17:18
<alkisg>
jammcq: you can have a template client to serve as the "server"
17:18
It only needs to have the `ltsp-update-image` or similar script, and ltsp-client
17:19
So for schools etc that don't care much about security, the server itself can be used, and wherever security is an issue, a template client
17:21
A template client holds no more sensitive data than a chroot... and even a chroot needs to be "cleaned up"
17:22
And separating nbd-server from authentication+appserver also helps in network traffic balancing
17:28
<ogra_>
schools dont care about security ?
17:29
you mean they dont do exams on the clients ?
17:29* ogra_ remembers a case where students sniffed the XDMCP traffic to cheat in exams
17:29
<ogra_>
with old LTSP
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17:30
<tewlz>
what's up
17:30
<ogra_>
dont underestimate the yound ones and their creativity ;)
17:30
*young
17:30
<tewlz>
meeting going on nowish?
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17:34
<jammcq>
tewlz: not for another hour
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17:38* jammcq doesn't understand the "don't care about security" thing
17:38
<tewlz>
jammcq: thanks
17:40
<ogra_>
jammcq, because they have so much money, so it doesnt matter if a botnet runs on all their clients eating the bandwith
17:40
<jammcq>
heh
17:40* jammcq would argue that it's not the teachers/administrators decision to make whether they pay attention to security or not
17:41
<ogra_>
that too
17:41
<jammcq>
poor security affects us all
17:44
<tewlz>
any cheap thin clients you guys would reccomend? I see a bunch of cheap geode based thin clients that I've read here and there that ltsp doesn't get along with them well.
17:46
<Enslaver>
tewlz: raspberry pi
17:46
<tewlz>
Enslaver: yea? isn't that arm based?
17:46
<Enslaver>
yes, there is a ltsp port called berryterm
17:47
<tewlz>
Enslaver: cool, I'll for sure check it out.
17:47
<Enslaver>
cant beat a $35 thin client
17:48
<tewlz>
Enslaver: heck no. Especially if I can support open source hardware at the same time!
17:49
<Enslaver>
especially if you donated the rest of what it would of cost you to the developers of the ltsp project =0
17:49
<tewlz>
I'm trying to hook my mom's tutor/homeschool out with a nice setup. I'm excited to get this up and running:)
17:50
Enslaver: Well, I can't promise much as a recently laid off just starting my own business/freelancing webdev. but I won't hesitate to contribute where and when I can :)
17:51
<alkisg>
(07:38:30 μμ) ***jammcq doesn't understand the "don't care about security" thing ==> well if one's server is a simple 5 year old PC and the clients 12 year old PCs, he just has to live with LDM_DIRECTX=True, and just notify his students about it. It's not an option, it's "insecure and usable" or "secure and unusable".
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17:52
<alkisg>
And that's way more secure than the windows 98 without antivirus solution he was using prior to LTSP.
17:52
<ogra_>
alkisg, well, LDM_DIRECTX is quite different to "export the servers rootfs to the clients and have some scripts care for security"
17:53* jammcq shouldn't throw stones. after all, i'm the guy that started this whole mess :)
17:53
<ogra_>
haha
17:53
<alkisg>
ogra_: it depends on how good the scripts are, it might be worse or better
17:53
<ogra_>
its all scotties fault anyway
17:53
:)
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17:54
<ogra_>
alkisg, no, the point is that this is flawed by design, no matter how good your scripts are, you always have the potential that you miss a change a package did and suddenly have security relevant stuff on the client
17:55
and its a helll lot of work to alwys monitor every change
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17:55
<ogra_>
but indeed ltsp has so many idly developers ... :P
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17:57
<ogra_>
for ubuntu i would just have a script that pulls the ubuntu-core tarball from cdimage, and installs the few needed ltsp bits in it (thats even faster than debootstrap)
17:57
and use that for the clients
17:58
<alkisg>
ogra_: using a template client is much more simple than using a chroot and has no security drawbacks
17:58* ogra_ doubts that
17:58
<alkisg>
E.g. "how do you install a GUI java app in the chroot"?
17:58
<ogra_>
why would i ?
17:58
<alkisg>
Or, drivers that need access to the hw device?
17:58
Because you want a fat chroot
17:59
<ogra_>
(speaking only of thin clients here)
17:59
<alkisg>
OK, let's say a smartboard then
17:59
How would you install the proprietary smartboard that needs access to the hardware while installing it?
17:59
*driver
17:59
<ogra_>
how would you do it now ?
18:00
wouldnt be different
18:00
<alkisg>
I'd install it on the template client following the manufacturer's how-to
18:00
I wouldn't need to worry about exporting a chroot via NFS to a client that has the smartboard connected
18:00
<ogra_>
and how would that differ from doing the same inside a chroot ?
18:00
??
18:00* ogra_ doesnt get that
18:00
<jammcq>
if the default is to use a chroot as the template, I could see it. but i'd never want the default to be the root of the server
18:00
<alkisg>
Sample instructions:
18:01
<ogra_>
didnt that conversation start with you wanting to export the servers trootfs ?
18:01
<alkisg>
"open a gnome terminal, run ./install-my-driver, and follow the GUI instructions"
18:01
"it will require that your smartboard is connected to be installed"
18:01
<ogra_>
(by whatever technology ... where does NFS come from now)
18:01
<alkisg>
And I don't have the smartboard connected to the ltsp server
18:01
So, to do that, I'd boot a client, mount the chroot via NFS,
18:02
mount --bind /dev etc, chroot there,
18:02
<ogra_>
sure. so you do it on the running client
18:02
<alkisg>
forward X inside the chroot,
18:02
<ogra_>
but thats wasnt my concern
18:02
<alkisg>
and then be able to follow the GUI instructions
18:02
By design, that's much much harder than it needs to be
18:02
<ogra_>
my concern is that you fiddle with the servers rootfs
18:02
instead of keeping the client locked in a safe environment
18:02
<alkisg>
As I said, then one can use a template client
18:03
If he's concerned about cleaning up the server rootfs
18:03
<ogra_>
geez
18:03
that sounds scary hackish
18:03
<alkisg>
Why so?
18:03
<Enslaver>
along those lines, has a NX script been written for screen.d?
18:03
<alkisg>
You install whatever you want in a client, you don't put any sensitive information there
18:03
<ogra_>
mixing environments just calls for trouble
18:03
as i said before
18:04
<alkisg>
You just maintain a chroot graphically
18:04
<ogra_>
you said you use the servers rootfs
18:04
<alkisg>
No, I said there are 2 options
18:04
<ogra_>
and export that with some scripts that care for a blacklist/whitelis
18:04
or did i misunderstand that
18:04
<alkisg>
One, to export the server rootfs, for those that don't care much about security (or have reviewed their cleanup scripts)
18:04
Two, to use a template client, for those that have security concerns
18:05
The cleanup script runs in both cases, but on the second case the sysadmin has no security concerns
18:05* ogra_ would never allow 1 and even refuse to merge code supporting that
18:05
<alkisg>
It's upstream already, ltsp-pnp
18:05
<ogra_>
but indeed up to you guys :)
18:05
<alkisg>
More than 500 installations are using it
18:05
<ogra_>
scary
18:05
<alkisg>
Necessary though
18:06
<ogra_>
not really
18:06
<alkisg>
Many teachers complained about "I cannot maintain a chroot"
18:06
And they don't have sysadmins
18:06
<ogra_>
that could have been implemented in a secure way too
18:06
but whatever
18:06
<alkisg>
If they care, they can use a "template VM" instead of a client
18:06
The technology is the same
18:06
Instead of `ltsp-update-image --cleanup /`, they'd just run `ltsp-update-image --cleanup /path/to/vm`
18:07
<ogra_>
right, are they aware of the insecure and hacky stuff they do at least ?
18:07
or is that the default ?
18:07
<alkisg>
that's the default, and most do know about it, yeah
18:07
And it's not insecure with the default apps
18:08* ogra_ usually doesnt mind giving people the gun to shoot their feet, but surelys wouldnt make that a default
18:08
<alkisg>
As the scripts remove all sensitive data
18:08
<ogra_>
oh my
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18:10
<alkisg>
It's basically the same concept that the ubuntu desktop cd uses
18:10
That too clones an installed system and tries to take care to remove any security issues
18:10
E.g. regenerate ssh keys or dbus machine id and whatever
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18:11
<alkisg>
Anyways, /me goes to help his daughter with math, bbl for the meeting...
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18:34
<knipwim>
highvoltage: the meeting just started :)
18:34
<vagrantc>
stgraber, mgariepy: ping
18:35
<tewlz>
meeting take place on here, or is there a g+ hangout or anything as well?
18:35
<vagrantc>
it's on #ltsp-meeting
18:35
<tewlz>
thanks
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20:57
<Enslaver>
does debain/ubuntu others have the 'which' command? Im not at home and cant look at my vms
20:57
<knipwim>
probably
20:57
<alkisg>
Yes, and also there's the "type" build-in if you need it
20:57
<Enslaver>
service=$(which service)
20:57
oh nice
20:58
<alkisg>
$ dpkg -S /usr/bin/which
20:58
debianutils: /usr/bin/which
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21:01
<Enslaver>
$(which service) "$@"
21:01
sounds like it should work right?
21:02
<knipwim>
not on gentoo
21:02
not sure what you want to accomplish
21:02
<Enslaver>
standard command structure
21:02
without having to call lsb
21:04
<knipwim>
gentoo doesn't have the service command to call the init service
21:04
but rc-service
21:05
in that case, for ltsp-config, it's solved in a gentoo-specific function
21:06
so service can be called in ltsp-config, but the default function is overlayed with the gentoo one, calling rc-service $@
21:12
<Enslaver>
gentoo have lsb hooks for starting daemons?
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21:21
<Enslaver>
what im confused on is how to restart service such as dhcpd, one distro calls it isc-dhcp-daemon and another calls it dhcpd
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21:23
<vagrantc>
Enslaver: distro overrides...
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21:25
<knipwim>
i don't think we have lsb hooks
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21:42
<Enslaver>
vagrantc: ok to code in lsb hooks first then have distro over rides for those who dont use lsb?
21:45
\
21:46
<vagrantc>
Enslaver: sounds reasonable
21:48
<alkisg>
Enslaver: what do you mean by "lsb hooks"?
21:48
To call lsb compliant executables or functions?
21:49
<Enslaver>
Yes
21:49
<alkisg>
OK, I thought hook == callback
21:50
Is there an lsb reference somewhere?
21:51
<Enslaver>
Yah sorry I refer to a hook as a function called from a library
21:52
LSB has some good docs, I forget website URL
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23:46
<ltspuser_72>
hello
23:46
can someone help me with linux
23:49
hello
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