IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 2 March 2015   (all times are UTC)

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08:24
<gym-kampou-chiou>
καλημέρα και καλή εβδομάδα!
08:24
<work_alkisg>
!greek
08:24
<ltsp`>
greek: Στο παρόν κανάλι μιλάνε μόνο Αγγλικά, για υποστήριξη στα Ελληνικά από την υπηρεσία Τεχνικής Στήριξης ΣΕΠΕΗΥ διαβάστε το http://ts.sch.gr/wiki/IRC και στη συνέχεια πληκτρολογήστε /j #ts.sch.gr
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09:08
<zChris>
!swede
09:08
<ltsp`>
I do not know about 'swede', but I do know about these similar topics: 'suse', 'since'
09:08
<zChris>
:(
09:12
<alkisg>
!since
09:12
<ltsp`>
<gym-kampou-chiou> καλημέρα και καλή εβδομάδα!, <work_alkisg> !greek, <zChris> !swede, <zChris> :(, and <alkisg> !since
09:13
<alkisg>
!forget since
09:13
<ltsp`>
The operation succeeded.
09:13
<alkisg>
!since
09:13
<ltsp`>
<gym-kampou-chiou> καλημέρα και καλή εβδομάδα!, <work_alkisg> !greek, <zChris> !swede, <zChris> :(, <alkisg> !since, <alkisg> !forget since, and <alkisg> !since
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11:26
<schooluser>
hey all
11:26
problem with epoptes
11:27
whats the path to the conf file?
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11:57
<fiesh>
can someone tell me what is supposed to be listening on port 9571? I get connection refuseds but cannot figure out why
11:59
ah ok, ldminfod, thanks ;)
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12:02
<stevecook>
Hi folks. Steve cook here. I have recently sucessfully installed pnp ltsp and have an issue i am worjking on resolving whoch is the lack of capacity of clients to recognise passwords coming out of lock screen....cont...
12:03
i ahve installed the ldm_2.2.15-2_i386.deb and need to do some more stuff but need some guidance. If you have the time alkisg, then I would be grateful for some assistance. I relalise, however, you have given over a fiar bit of time to be already and ubnderstand oif you are busy
12:17
If anyone else is able to help, all advice gratefully received. just nipping out of room for 5 mins to do job......
12:19
<cyberorg>
stevecook, LDM_PASSWORD_HASH=true in lts.conf
12:19
<alkisg>
stevecook: you might also need a file from a more recent ltsp version (not just ldm), but I don't have time to check now
12:20alkisg is now known as work_alkisg
12:20* work_alkisg waves...
12:20
<fiesh>
is there a standard way to set the X background to solid black, apart from installing xsetroot and having it in the user's .xsession?
12:21
<stevecook>
No worries, folks, I will update the lts.conf and see what happen and get back to you.
12:26
Inserted "LDM_PASSWORD_HASH=true" into the bottom of lts.conf file. But no go I am afraid. On the upside alkisg, blender even works in a vm client now!...:)
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12:48
<Hyperbyte>
stevecook, didn't alkisg say that only works with LDM 5.5.2+ ?
12:57
<stevecook>
I think you are referring to ltsp version there, though I cant be sure
12:59
though, from what alkisg as just inbdicated, it looks like I at leasdt need a file form a more recent version of ltsp as well
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13:38
<madze_>
Hi, it is possible to connect another device to usb in thinclient? I mean about Microchip programmer.
13:38
<Hyperbyte>
madze_, LTSP only forwards filesystems by default, not actual devices.
13:39
Doesn't mean it's not possible though, there are things like netusb. Although in your case, easiest might be to run the programming software as a local app.
13:39
Then it has direct USB access instead of via network.
13:41
<madze_>
Nice solution, i will try - mayby it's work, like i want :)
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14:41
<carolyn_>
i was needing help getting my diskless box setup can u help
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14:45
<Hyperbyte>
Patience is a virtue.
14:48
<muppis>
Anyone familiar with ltsp-build-client -script? I'm building chroot for arm device (Odroid C1) and obiviusly it fails whe trying to chroot in due Exec error. If I drop that already generated chroot to SD cart and boot the actual machine with it, what I do next?
14:56work_alkisg is now known as alkisg
14:56
<alkisg>
muppis: you've managed to boot the client with a local image?
14:59
<muppis>
alkisg, Odroid uses U-boot which can handle PXE.
15:00
Managed to make fat client using a local image. :D
15:01
We want PXE booting for easier management.
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15:18
<alkisg>
muppis: well if you did get a local image, then you just need to install ltsp-client in it, and copy it to the ltsp server chroot
15:19* ogra_ would instead do the whole lstsp-build-client run inside a qemu-user-static chroot
15:20
<alkisg>
ogra_, are you planning to attend debconf15 at heidelberg?
15:21
<ogra_>
probably
15:21
cant promise it yet since i dont know what kind of work travel might get in my way
15:21
<alkisg>
cool, I told vagrantc to try to arrange an ltsp meeting there
15:21
<ogra_>
i would love to make ltsp work on snappy :)
15:21
<alkisg>
Maybe we could do an LTSP BTM then :P
15:21
<ogra_>
yeah
15:21
<alkisg>
(There are Mountains there, right? :))
15:22
<ogra_>
rather hills i think :)
15:22
<alkisg>
oh well, BTH then
15:22
<ogra_>
hehe
15:22
its a big wine area though ...
15:22
BTW
15:22
;)
15:23
<alkisg>
:)
15:27
<vmlintu>
ogra_: how would snappy ltsp differ from normal ltsp?
15:28
just curious as I haven't tried snappy yet
15:28
<ogra_>
the install would be lots easier
15:28
<Hyperbyte>
It'll be a lot snappier I guess?
15:28
<ogra_>
you would have one giant .snap package with everything pre-built inside
15:29
<fiesh>
any hints on what might cause:
15:29
libGL error: failed to open drm device: No such file or directory
15:29
libGL error: failed to load driver: i965
15:29
? permissions are find, users are in group video
15:29
<ogra_>
and once desktop, phone and server have moved to snappy you ill be able to even run ltsp on your phone ;)
15:29
<fiesh>
and the drivers are installed on the client
15:29
<alkisg>
fiesh: drivers for intel? they're included...
15:29
<vmlintu>
ogra_: the .snap being something that would be distributed pre-built?
15:29
<ogra_>
yes
15:30
in the snap store
15:30
<vmlintu>
ogra_: the snap store would build them?
15:30
<alkisg>
ogra_: why isn't the package management system enough? e.g. couldn't you just have an "ubuntu-deps" package for proprietary apps to depend on?
15:30
<ogra_>
no, you upload binaries to the store
15:31
alkisg, snappy uses snap packages, apt and dpkg are essentially dead there
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15:31
<alkisg>
I understand, but I can't understand the benefits
15:31
I can only see drawbacks there...
15:31
<ogra_>
a snap package is kind of a meta wrapper that allows you to get only diff upgrades and has builtin rollback functionality
15:31
<alkisg>
Snapshots can be done in the file system level with btrfs
15:31
So rollbacks would be lots easier that way
15:32
diff upgrades are offered e.g. in pradus for a long time now
15:32
<ogra_>
it is wrapped in an onion like model that control all the security aspects the package can use
15:33
<alkisg>
ogra_: how is the base system built, before it is packaged into a .snap package?
15:33
Normally via debootstrap?
15:33
<ogra_>
snaps are the perfect package format for upstreams ... i expect that chrome, firefox and libreoffice will at some point default to them for ubuntu
15:33
since you dont have to care for dependencies etc ... makes PPAs moot
15:34
which base system ?
15:34
<alkisg>
core-utils etc
15:34
The basic chroot where you'll begin to install the apps in
15:34
<ogra_>
it is the ubuntu-core seed ... the most minimal ubuntu rootfs you can build
15:34
<alkisg>
So apt and dpkg will still be needed there, right?
15:34
<ogra_>
there is no chroot
15:35
no
15:35
<alkisg>
But don't seeds use dpkg?
15:35
<ogra_>
you can completely build your stuff from github if you like
15:35
oh, well, seeds are used to build the image ...
15:35
but your snap doesnt do much with the image, it lives in its own restricted space
15:36
<alkisg>
So, the image does use apt and dpkg?
15:36
<ogra_>
no
15:36
they get removed at build time
15:36
<alkisg>
But to build it, you use apt and dpkg?
15:36
<ogra_>
since the OS is completely readonly they wouldnt help you much
15:36
right ... they get removed after they fulfilled their duty during build
15:37
<alkisg>
So it's a new layer only for user apps, not for system apps...
15:37
Is there any method to automatically convert debian/ directories into snap-package/ directories?
15:38
tinycorelinux uses squashfs images to ship applications, I'm guessing .snap files is something similar?
15:38
<ogra_>
no, that would be pointless, you cant replace deb with snap ...
15:38
<alkisg>
So we'd need to re-package 20000 packages?
15:38
<ogra_>
there is work going on to provide you frameworks to pull in sets of debs into your snap at build time though
15:38
<alkisg>
Ouch, so a library would be there multiple times...
15:39
Meh stupid proprietary apps with your dependencies...
15:39
Wastes RAM, disk space etc
15:39
<ogra_>
it could be there multiple times indeed
15:39
but i assume thats a pretty rare case
15:39
often used libs will show up in framework snaps that packages can make use of
15:40
<alkisg>
Couldn't those just be debian packages named "ubuntu-framework-xxx"?
15:40
<ogra_>
no
15:40
if we could have used dpkg in this env we would have used it ;)
15:41* alkisg still doesn't understand why though.... but hopes it's for the best
15:41
<ogra_>
snaps are installed per-user ...
15:41
dpkg would never support that
15:41
or installable per user
15:41
also making dpkg work on a fully readonly system is hard and would have required heavy patching
15:42
<alkisg>
Do .snap packages get uncompressed on installation, or do they get overlayed, like tinycorelinux does with .squashfs files overlayed over the file system?
15:42
<ogra_>
currently only unompresse3d, the mechanism to overlay them is still in discussion (somethin like that will come though)
15:43
<alkisg>
Readonly /system partitions because of the phone restrictions, ah, yeah that make sense
15:43
To allow companies to ship closed systems
15:43
<ogra_>
note because of the phone :)
15:43
because of the upgrade mechanism
15:43
<alkisg>
The upgrade could work fine with snapshots etc... I think fedora is already doing that
15:43
<ogra_>
it creates a diff against the last rootfses ...
15:44
so your upgrade takes seconds vs hours
15:44
but to achieve that the server and client rootfs need to be identical
15:44
<alkisg>
You don't actually need a whole root system to be identical, you'd only need the previous ubuntu-framework-v1.0 package to be identical, that wouldn't be an issue...
15:45
Even if that part contained 500mb of files
15:45
<ogra_>
the framework isnt in any way connected to the underlying system ...
15:46
i'm talking about the system itself
15:46* alkisg hopes that debian, fedora, snap etc packages can all be described from a single source like appdata in the future, otherwise developers will really have problems maintaining all those
15:46
<alkisg>
http://people.freedesktop.org/~hughsient/appdata/
15:47
<ogra_>
well, snap packages simply only need an upstream git tree
15:47
<alkisg>
They don't need description, installable files, dependencies, screenshots etc?
15:47
<ogra_>
they enable you to do plain upstream builds and distribute the binaries
15:47
<alkisg>
Don't they need something like a debian/control file?
15:47
<ogra_>
thats all stuff the soptre deals with, not the snap
15:47
store
15:48
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ogra/+junk/chatroom/revision/1/meta/package.yaml#meta/package.yaml
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15:48
<ogra_>
thats all they need
15:48
and a readme.md in the meta dir
15:48
<alkisg>
Yup, yet another control file...
15:49
<ogra_>
well, a pretyt trivial one
15:50
<alkisg>
Are there any GUIs planned for building snap packages?
15:50
<ogra_>
i dont think so
15:50
<alkisg>
For developers that have never heard of linux before...
15:50
<ogra_>
but you never know what the community comes up with
15:51
given that due to the IoT focus currently you have mostly embedded devs we dont really need a ui currently
15:51
<alkisg>
ogra_, will .snap packages be supported on the desktop too?
15:51
<ogra_>
the guys doing embedded linux stuff usually know their way around vi
15:51
alkisg, the desktop images will switch to snappy at some point
15:51
<alkisg>
I meant e.g. phone app developers that are used to the android sdk etc
15:51
<ogra_>
convergence ;)
15:52
<alkisg>
So I won't be able to run `apt-get install epoptes` if I don't make a snap package for it?!!
15:52
<ogra_>
yeah, i would expect the ubuntu SDK to support a gui way of building snaps
15:52
right
15:52
<alkisg>
Ouch.... :-/
15:52
/j #debian
15:52
:P
15:53
Thanks for the info, I really wish this is for the best
15:53* ogra_ too ... since it is so much easier than debs
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15:54
<ogra_>
and automatic rollbacks on failed upgrade and stuff is simply sexy
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15:55
<ogra_>
being able to promise a constant uptime and all ...
15:55
<alkisg>
I don't think those are significant, with btrfs we'll have snapshots on boot, snapshots before installing programs, snapshots after... we'll have _too_ much uptime :P
15:56
I think stability for the api is the most significant thing here
15:56
So that applications can run on a wide range of library versions, like they do on android, windows etc
15:56
<SeRi>
hello all, I just did a fresh intsall of ltsp-server on a centos 6.6 x86_64 server... All goes well till a client trys to login to a gnome desktop. It "trys" to log in but it kicks the user right back out... all you see is the spinning watch. Any ideas or help?
15:57
<vmlintu>
looks like I started quite a snappy discussion..
15:57
<alkisg>
SeRi: I don't think anyone maintains ltsp on centos... also, thin clients have a hard time running 3d sessions like gnome3
15:57
<ogra_>
vmlintu, hah
15:58
alkisg, there is #snappy btw ... in case you want to go on, i'm in there and we dont need to spam #ltsp
15:58
<SeRi>
alkisg: crap. wow didnt know that. I think 6.6 still on gnome2 at any rate I am SOL? :)
15:58
<alkisg>
ogra_ thanks again for the info, I was really wondering about all that
15:59
SeRi: what is SOL?
15:59
(other than a note, the name of our solar system, etc...)
15:59
<SeRi>
alkisg: Shit Out of Luck :)
15:59
<vmlintu>
ogra_: if there would be a snappy based ltsp image, could users install .snaps in their home directories or something similar?
15:59
<alkisg>
Hehe, true
15:59
<ogra_>
alkisg, it is realyl hard to explain ... trying it out in kvm surely helps undertsanding it
16:00
vmlintu, theoretically one could allow that, yeah
16:00
<alkisg>
But how would they run all the services in privileged ports? And how would they depend on e.g. dnsmasq etc?
16:00
<vmlintu>
ogra_: does snappy need an uncompressed filesystem or can it run using read-only images living within another filesystem?
16:01
<ogra_>
alkisg, they dont ... their snap would connect to a security system service that provides them this access
16:02
vmlintu, it is designed to run cloud containers too ... so you could have a docker container running lxc that runs an ltsp instance
16:02
or some such
16:02
<alkisg>
So we wouldn't be able to create an ltsp.snap package, we'd need an "ltsp security system service" instead...
16:02
As ltsp needs a lot of such ports
16:02
<ogra_>
nope
16:02
<alkisg>
ldminfod etc
16:03
<ogra_>
you would have to declare all ports in your package.yaml
16:03
for unpriv. ports that works fine
16:03
<vmlintu>
ogra_: I'm thinking of having it boot without an uncompressed filesystem, straight from an squashfs image or something similar..
16:03
<alkisg>
Suppose I need dnsmasq, nbd, nfs, ssh
16:03
<ogra_>
right, you would move them to unproiv ports
16:04
<vmlintu>
ogra_: the base system, I mean.. here it shows that you need system-a and system-b partitions: https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/snappy/guides/filesystem-layout/
16:04
<ogra_>
vmlintu, right, but you never touch the base system
16:05* alkisg couldn't move dns to another port...
16:05
<ogra_>
well, for that you indeed would need a service that routes your stuff throuh
16:05
<vmlintu>
ogra_: so only some ubuntu masters ever will create base systems and the snappy system cannot be used to create alternative base systems?
16:05
<alkisg>
For all of ltsp-related services, yup...
16:05
<ogra_>
(there are better people in #snappy to explain that model)
16:06
vmlintu, that is not how it works ... you dont touch the base system at all ... its a 150M rootfs that is readonly ... what you do for your own stuff lives on top of that
16:07
ubuntu-core is essentially systemd and the basics you need to bnoot
16:07
*boot
16:07
nothign more
16:07
you dont want to change that core of the system
16:07
<vmlintu>
but if it's all user based on top of that, having 1000 people using a single ltsp server makes libreoffice installed 1000 times, so I thought first to install it there..
16:08
<ogra_>
no, it allows user based snaps :)
16:08
indeed you can have system level ones too ... but these need to talk to security guards to i.e. hardware or privileged ports
16:08
s/talk to/talk through/
16:09* ogra_ needs to go to a meeting, ask the guys in #snappy for more detailed info :)
16:10
<vmlintu>
hmm.. so there'd be a snappy base nbd image + another for system level installs..
16:10
<ogra_>
you would put all of it into one snap
16:11
<fiesh>
hmm ok, it's no wonder it wont' do DRI, it tries opening /dev/dri/card0 on the server, not the client....
16:12
is DRI not meant to work correctly using the client's dri device?
16:12
<alkisg>
fiesh: it's possible to do 3d over the network via llvmpipe but it's very slow
16:12
If you manage to do real 3d/dri over the network, do tell us...
16:12
I've also seen virtualgl, but when I once tried it, it crashed for me, I don't know if that means anything though
16:13
<ogra_>
i wonder if you could do it with wayland/Xwayland and mir/Xmir :)
16:13
<alkisg>
Currently people are switching to fat clients
16:13
<fiesh>
oh I see, then I was under the wrong impression that things would work smoothly :( thanks
16:13
<ogra_>
you would run a GL capable mir or wayland session locally ... the X variants run inside that
16:13
<alkisg>
I don't think wayland and mir are network-aware...
16:13
!fatclients | echo fiesh:
16:13
<ltsp`>
fiesh: fatclients: You may find some info about the Ubuntu/LTSP implementation of fat clients at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients
16:14
<alkisg>
!ltsp-pnp | echo fiesh:
16:14
<ltsp`>
fiesh: ltsp-pnp: ltsp-pnp is an alternative (upstream) method to maintain LTSP installations for thin and fat clients that doesn't involve chroots: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
16:14
<ogra_>
alkisg, no, X is ;)
16:14
<alkisg>
...things like that
16:14
<ogra_>
alkisg, thats my point
16:14
<alkisg>
ogra_, to emulate 3d in software?
16:14
<ogra_>
if you run Xmir or Xwayland you get the benefits of X
16:14
insie a wrapper that already runs in a GL context
16:14
<alkisg>
But how would that help gl over network?
16:15
<ogra_>
the GL provider runs locally already and provides access to the local HW to your X clients
16:16
i'm not sure how the Xmir/Xwayland implementations work, i would expect them to just talk to their wrapper instance
16:16
and not to /dev/foo/bar/dri
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16:28
<stevecook>
hi anybody available to help with clinet lock screen issue on pnp ltsp
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16:36
<stevecook>
you about alkisg?
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17:08
<alkisg>
stevecook: you need both a newer ldm and ltsp version. You updated ldm; now you also need ltsp. Or, maybe only that file: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/ltsp/ltsp-trunk/view/head:/client/localapps/ldm-rc.d/X01-localapps
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