IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 21 February 2009   (all times are UTC)

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09:31
<FreakGuard>
anyone using archlinux here?
09:35
I'm looking for an ltsp-mirror... could anyone give me one?
09:42
<johnny>
there is no archlinux port of ltsp5 yet
09:42
search launchpad.net if you're interested in developing one
09:43
<FreakGuard>
atm I'm wondering about an ltsp 5.0 mirror
09:43
as all seem to be emtpy
09:43
<johnny>
huh?
09:43
ltsp5 does not distribute tarballs
09:43
<ogra>
https://code.launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/
09:43
there is the code
09:44
<FreakGuard>
hm
09:44
<johnny>
FreakGuard, if you want ltsp5 for arch, you would have to build arch packages for it
09:44
from the bzr repos
09:44
<FreakGuard>
looks like it
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09:44
<johnny>
and then make PKGBUILD for it with a mkdst created tarball that somebody on that team would mirror
09:44
<FreakGuard>
where to get some other buildscripts?
09:45
<johnny>
you have to make the buildscripts to build the thinclient env :)
09:45
for each distro
09:45
<ogra>
ltsp5 i al about intgreating with the host distro, if nobody has done that yet you wont be able to use it on your distro
09:45
<johnny>
ltsp5 is all about*
09:45
<ogra>
s/i/is/
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09:45
<FreakGuard>
so there's some work that needs to be done
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09:45
<johnny>
yep
09:45
i had to do it for gentoo
09:46
ogra did it for ubuntu
09:46
warren did it for fedora
09:46
<FreakGuard>
I don't really like debian... but gentoo might be worth a look
09:46
<johnny>
FreakGuard, if arch has some sort of automated install
09:46
<ogra>
vagrantc for debian
09:46
<johnny>
you can script it
09:46
<ogra>
http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/IntegratingLtsp
09:46
<johnny>
to do the right thing and build the chroot
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09:46
<johnny>
ah.. is that document still completely valid ogra?
09:46
<FreakGuard>
actually there's 3 aur/ltsp-utils 0.25-1 (13)
09:46
The Linux Terminal Server Project installation untily files
09:46
<johnny>
FreakGuard, that's for ltsp4
09:47
<ogra>
(that wikipage is fairly outdated though)
09:47
<johnny>
it is not supported by anybody
09:47
<FreakGuard>
jep :(
09:47
<johnny>
FreakGuard, ubuntu's ltsp is great
09:47
even though i wrote the gentoo one.. i still deploy ubuntu's at my store
09:47
<ogra>
ubuntu was the cradle of ltsp5 ...
09:47
<johnny>
truly
09:48
<ogra>
though debian is equivalently good ... we worked very closely together
09:48
not sure where fedora stands but i suspect it is at a similar level
09:49
<FreakGuard>
so either get good with debian or do a lot of work?
09:49
<ogra>
or ubuntu
09:49
<FreakGuard>
:/
09:50
hm
09:50
<ogra>
!ubuntu
09:50
<ltspbot>
ogra: "ubuntu" is a Debian based GNU/Linux distrubution that includes a Ubuntu specific version of LTSP. It can be found at http://www.ubuntulinux.org. to install ltsp on ubuntu: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPQuickInstall
09:50
<ogra>
!debian
09:50
<ltspbot>
ogra: "debian" is is a GNU/Linux based operating system that makes an excellent LTSP server. You can find it at http://www.debian.org. for information about LTSP on debian see http://wiki.debian.org/LTSP
09:50
<FreakGuard>
I've a debian on my router...
09:51
<ogra>
for ubuntu you dont have to do anything, it has an ltsp mode built into the installer so you just select the ltsp mode at installation time and get a ready to go ltsp server
09:52
<FreakGuard>
I've got archlinux - I'm not the non-config guy ;)
09:52
<ogra>
on debian you have to set up ltsp after installation manually with the given commands
09:52
see the latter links on both url's the bot has spit out above
09:53
<FreakGuard>
johnny, just to get an image... how much work was the integrating for gentoo?
09:53* ogra thinks half a year or so
09:53
<FreakGuard>
hm
09:53
<ogra>
though johnny didnt really work fulltime on it
09:55* alkisg has been trying to setup a RAID 0 for hours, only to discover that it dropped the hd performance to 20%... :(
09:56
<ogra>
alkisg, that doesnt seem right
09:56
<alkisg>
ogra, care to help? :(
09:56
<ogra>
did you use identical disks ? else 0 is pretty pointless
09:57
<alkisg>
I tried with the ubuntu alternate installer, made this partitions: sda #1, 2, 3=primary, (#5, 6, 7, 8=logical), and sdb=#1, 2, 3, 4 the same size as the logicals from sda
09:57
<FreakGuard>
why so much?
09:57
ehh many
09:57
<ogra>
no, the partitioning should be identical on both
09:58
<FreakGuard>
that's clear, I'm just wondering why so many paritions
09:58
<ogra>
it should be identical devices with identicl part. scheme
09:58
<alkisg>
The disks are of different size, sda is 40 Gb, sdb is 20 Gb
09:58
Then I "bonded" sda5 with sdb1, sda6 with sdb2, sda7 with sdb3, and sda8 with sdb4
09:58
So I now have /dev/md0 to md3
09:58
<ogra>
well, that will likely not give you the performance boost you expect then
09:59
<alkisg>
sda5 has exactly the same cylinders as sdb1, and so on
09:59
But instead of increasing performance, it dropped, from 20 MB/sec to 5 MB/sec :(
09:59
<ogra>
and hdparm -tT /dev/sda5 vs /dev/md0 does show a slowdown ?
10:00
(or sdb1 vs md0)
10:00
<alkisg>
Well, before the bonding, hdparm -tT /dev/sdb1 showed 22 MB/sec
10:00
After the raid creation, it showed 5 MB/sec
10:01
And also /dev/md1 showed 5 MB/sec
10:01
<ogra>
if they are massively different the slower disk will tear down the performance of the faster one
10:01
<alkisg>
They are of similar performance, 20MB/sec both
10:01
So I expected something ~40MB/sec or a little lower...
10:01
<ogra>
well, try identical parztitioning schemes ..
10:01
<alkisg>
I can't; one is 40GB, the other 20GB
10:02
That's why I had to count cylinders etc
10:02* ogra never tried non identical disks in raid 0
10:03
<alkisg>
But in theory, what I did was right? (I've never created RAID arrays before)
10:03
(other than the partition sizes, of course)
10:03
<ogra>
well, apart from the fact that you didnt use identical disks and partitioning
10:05
<alkisg>
Maybe I should use a partitionable raid, instead of 8 different partitions? http://linux-raid.osdl.org/index.php/Partitionable
10:06
...or even lvm on top of raid? :(
10:07
<ogra>
right
10:07
but still, you wont really gain much with raid 0 on non identical disk i fear
10:08
<johnny>
FreakGuard, the barrier to creating a new distribution for ltsp5 grows less with every added distro, as it shakes out various assumptions
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10:09
<alkisg>
Isn't is supposed to work with media of any type, as long as they are of the same size? I read that even usb sticks can be used together with hard disks...
10:09
<johnny>
luckily fedora started before me.. and shook out many debianisms
10:09
<ogra>
alkisg, sure, but your performance gain will vary
10:10
<alkisg>
OK, but I was expecting gain, not degradation... :(
10:11
Ah, maybe I should try with newer hardware, maybe it's a problem with my motherboard or IDE drives or something.
10:11
(they're 9 years old!)
10:11
<ogra>
try utting them on different controllers
10:11
<alkisg>
They're on different IDE cables... that's the best I could do
10:12
<ogra>
yeah, thats what i meant
10:12
and make sure there is nothing else on that bus
10:12
i.e. CDROM
10:12
<alkisg>
Erm, they're 2 CDROMs there, but I wasn't using them while testing with hdparm :)
10:13
*there are
10:13
<ogra>
unplug them
10:13
and test again
10:13
<alkisg>
Hm... ok... testing...
10:13
<ogra>
old IDE buses will degrade to the slowest attached device usually
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10:14
<alkisg>
I did the first hdparm test (before trying RAID) with the same devices/cables combination
10:14
And they showed 20mBps, now they're at 5mBps :( - ok, testing without the cdroms
10:22
(damn CS jumpers)
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10:43
<alkisg>
OK, without the CDs: hdparm -tT /dev/sda1 (non-raid) => 22 MB/sec, /dev/sda5 (1st part of md0) => 24MB/sec, /dev/sdb1 (2nd part of md0) => 22 MB/sec, *but* /dev/md0 => 17 MB/sec. Giving up on RAID. :(
10:47
Ah, ok, I got it, it's my motherboard: if I test them in parallel, hdparm -tT /dev/sda5 & hdparm -tT /dev/sdb1 I only get 8.5MB/sec for each of them. :)
10:47
I spent several hours and got nothing, but at least it makes sense now!
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12:03
<johnny>
this directory really contains every debian source package?
12:03
http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/5.0.0/source/iso-dvd/
12:04
so.. 23K packages takes up around 14G
12:05
i'd like to purchase pressed source dvds at some point
12:05
but probably for ubuntu rather than debian
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15:03
<kaos01>
hi, my ltsp clients seem a bit chopi, is there anything i can do to solve this, say better netwrok ?
15:04
<FreakGuard>
kaos01, you might want to monitor the server (load, network)
15:06
<kaos01>
well server seems fine, network bandwith is also fine ...
15:06
its a crapy 10Mb half/duplex network though
15:07
<FreakGuard>
you might want to wait for someone with more expirence than me ;)
15:07
<kaos01>
the client is a new computer "wouldnt say thin" so its powerfull enough ...
15:07
but say i move a window around it all gets chopy, or read PDF
15:07
or swap workspaces
15:08
the only weak points i may have is the network or my setup :)
15:10
<alkisg>
Is that *ten* Mbps network???!
15:10
<kaos01>
yes
15:11
<alkisg>
It's too slow... Can't you upgrade it? If not, maybe you should try NX...
15:12
<kaos01>
while i agree its not an ideal network, still wondering though as teh bandwith is enough, would it have to do with some sort of latency ?
15:13
<alkisg>
Well, I get about 20Mbps from my clients while scrolling a window, and 70 while playing video...
15:13
<sepski>
full dunplex would probably matter more then 100 mbit. also of the thin client is weak you can experiment with LDM_DIRECTX (it helped for me)
15:14
but replace that 10mbit with any regular switch the first thing you do
15:14
<kaos01>
yes i have LDM_DIRECTX=True
15:14
glxgears runs hell slow :)
15:14
<alkisg>
kaos01: try removing LDM_DIRECTX, because AFAIK you lack bandwidth, not CPU power
15:14
<sepski>
alkisg, can you actualy play video on the thin client ?
15:15
if i try eg youtube i have FPS of 1
15:15
<alkisg>
sepski: sure, on all my 8 clients at once
15:15
<sepski>
you could even add compression
15:15
<alkisg>
sepski: what's your bottleneck? did you do any benchmarks?
15:15
<sepski>
and each of them use 80Mbps ? you have gigabit switch then
15:16
no not yet what benchmarks do you suggest ? i have gigabit to the server. but it's via 3 switches and a 35km fiberoptic
15:16
<alkisg>
sepski: depends on the video. E.g. for 640x300 with xv scaling to show it full screen, it only takes 30 Mbps for each client, which can be done with 100 mbps network + bonding on the server
15:16
<sepski>
oh and the server only have 100mbit network card tho. but it only serves one client (yet)
15:17
<alkisg>
sepski: sometimes it's the client CPU, other times the server CPU, other times the network etc
15:17
<sepski>
might upgrade the server if this solution is workable
15:17
well the client didn't like ssh got high pings without DIRECTC
15:18
<alkisg>
What graphics card does your client have? How fast CPU?
15:22
<kaos01>
in my cenario its definetly not client nor server CPU :)
15:23
<sepski>
VIA Samuel 2 at 530 mhz; bogomips : 1066 | VGA Trident Microsystems CyberBlade/i1 | 128MB ram
15:24
<kaos01>
my cleint is 3MHz and still slow graphics
15:25
<alkisg>
kaos01: what graphics card? E.g. glxgears requires 3d acceleration...
15:25
<kaos01>
VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation 82Q35 Express Integrated Graph
15:25
ics Controller
15:26
<johnny>
sepski, there is no 3d acceleration for that card
15:26
oh.. different person between those two convos..
15:26
oops
15:26
<sepski>
i'v never tried anything 3d on this either
15:26
:)
15:26
<alkisg>
sepski: I'm not familiar with your hardware, but it sounds low-end, maybe this is your bottleneck... Try playing a video with totem to see if it's good enough
15:27
<sepski>
xorg runs at 70% cpu while playing a youtube
15:27
<alkisg>
Server CPU or client CPU?
15:27
<sepski>
client
15:27
load at 0.6
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15:27
<sepski>
firefox on server is at about 20% cpu rest is mostly idle
15:28
<alkisg>
Is that 70% for xorg? Or you mean 30% idle?
15:28
<sepski>
load of .16 - 0.2
15:28
aledec, 15-20 idle ; 70 for xorg alone
15:29
<alkisg>
And that's flashplayer 10, or 9something?
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15:31
<sepski>
flashplayer-mozilla 1:10.0.15.3-0.1
15:31
debian lenny
15:31
from debian-multimedia
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15:31
<alkisg>
Hmmm ok, and you only get 5 fps?!!!
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15:34
<alkisg>
bbl...
15:34
<sepski>
more like 1 :)
15:36
what is you people's ping time from server to client ? i have 35 km and get 0.55 ms when doing regular work (vi firefox and thunderbird.) but it jumps to 12 ms when playing youtube
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15:36
<sepski>
perhaps my client cpu is just not dealing ?
15:39
<kaos01>
is a ping of 1.156 for client to server OK ?
15:40
oops I meant 0.672 ms
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15:57
<alkisg>
sepski: I'm thinking your GPU is to blame... if you scroll a gedit window, how many fps do you think you get?
15:58
<sepski>
i used kate (kde user) and if i hold page down it redraws at 1-2 fps
15:59
<alkisg>
So youtube/cpu isn't the problem, maybe it's the graphics card or even the driver
15:59
E.g. I had a similar problem with S3 cards: 3 fps at 24bits color depth, 30 fps at 16 color depth!!!
16:00
sepski: also try to run a local terminal inside X, and run either x11perf or even ls -R /, to verify that the problem isn't the network latency...
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16:01
<sepski>
this is the default 16 bits
16:02
<alkisg>
Can you get a local app running?
16:07
<sepski>
should this DISPLAY variable work ? DISPLAY=127.0.0.1:7.0
16:08
<alkisg>
No, I don't think so
16:08
<sepski>
it's ip:7.0 that's set on the server
16:08
<alkisg>
Ah, from the terminal? Yes, but you may also need a xauth +
16:09
Or export XAUTHORITY=/var/ltsp xauth something
16:11
<sepski>
hum
16:11
# xauth +
16:11
xauth: (argv):1: unknown command "+"
16:11
<alkisg>
sorry, xhost + :)
16:11
sepski: I do it this way in ubuntu: Alt+Ctrl+F1, login as root, export XAUTHORITY=/var/run/xauth-I-don't-remember-the-path, DISPLAY=:7.0 xterm
16:12
And if you have a very recent ltsp with local app support, you may use an xprop trick - but I don't think it's on debian lenny...
16:14* alkisg is trying lenny experimental with kde 4.2 but can't find how to install the nvidia drivers... :(
16:15
<sepski>
that worked got a local xterm
16:15
<alkisg>
OK, try something like ls -R / to see how many fps you get
16:15
with a maximized xterm
16:15
Or maybe x11perf...
16:16
If it's OK, then your network is to blame. If it sucks, it's your GPU...
16:16
<sepski>
more then with kate altest
16:16
scrolls quite fast
16:16
<johnny>
the other way..
16:17
is to add LDM_DEBUG_TERMINAL=Y
16:17
which'll do all that for ya
16:17
and spawn a local xterm
16:17
<sepski>
and you get a terminal at the ldm login screen ?
16:17
<johnny>
no..after
16:17
<sepski>
right
16:17
<alkisg>
johnny: that's too recent, isn't it?
16:17
<sepski>
niiice feature
16:17
<johnny>
too recent?
16:17
it was before intrepid iirc?
16:17
<sepski>
i have ltsp-server 5.1.10-2
16:17
<alkisg>
I think lenny has a 6 months old ltsp
16:18
ltsp-server 5.1.62-0ubuntu
16:18
<sepski>
hte freeze was almost that long so probably
16:18
<johnny>
it's almost been 6 months :)
16:18
as it was done BEFORE intrepid.. perhaps even an entire month
16:18
<sepski>
how would i test the network for ltsp ?
16:19
<alkisg>
sepski: for bandwidth, from xterm: netperf -c -C -H server -l 9999 -D 10,1
16:19
<sepski>
i added it in my conf. ill tell you if it worked on the next reboot
16:19
<alkisg>
For latency, I don't know, ping?
16:20
Ah, you'll need apt-get install netperf :)
16:20
<sepski>
well my ping bounces between 0.5 and 12 ms while playing youtube tho
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16:21
<sepski>
but that's only towards the client. the rest of the machines here have the constant low ping at 0.5
16:22
alkisg, non-free ! *my heart*
16:22
<alkisg>
what? netperf or nvidia?
16:23
<sepski>
netperf
16:23
<alkisg>
Wow, I didn't know :)
16:23
<sepski>
:)
16:23
<alkisg>
sepski: where the heck are the nvidia drivers?!!!
16:24
...well, when everything else fails, just @(*#$ google it, I suppose... :)
16:24
<sepski>
non-free as well
16:25
93.72 10^6bits/s over 10.02 seconds
16:26
that would not even be 10 mbits ?
16:26
i guess i have to try from a different machine as well to compare
16:27
<alkisg>
No, that's a nice 100mbps link
16:28
Your bandwidth is fine, maybe the latency is your problem
16:29
<sepski>
well the latency bounces to 12ms as i said, but only for this client. the (disk based) worksstation next to it have constant ping
16:29
<alkisg>
sepski: how did you see your client cpu usage before, if you didn't have a local xterm?
16:29
<sepski>
ssh into it
16:29
<alkisg>
Ah, ok
16:35
<sepski>
it's running vlc as a local app ok
16:35
no sound thop
16:37
<alkisg>
And vlc from the server? Again 1 fps?
16:39
<kaos01>
how do you guys get tehse fps measuremnets ?
16:42
<sepski>
1 fps is quite easy to spot ysing you'r eyes and a clock
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16:43
<kaos01>
thank i been reading your conversation, great trouble shooting howto, i will also give it a go later :)
16:45
<sepski>
yeah it should be put on the web somewhere
16:47
how the heck can the same version vlc play on loca and complain about codec on server
16:48
<alkisg>
Sound codec?
16:48
<sepski>
video
16:48
<alkisg>
Hrm, fun :)
16:49
<sepski>
all i did in ltsp chroot was install vlc
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17:05
<sepski>
thanks for the troubleshootign tips. i have to go to sleep now. but ill be back :)
17:05
my vlc on the server is borked. have to fix that as well
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20:19
<nothingman>
how do I specify for tftpd to start on multiple interfaces?
20:20
<jammcq>
I think it does by default
20:20
<nothingman>
hm
20:20
interesting
20:21
<jammcq>
do: netstat -anp | grep ":69 "
20:21
<nothingman>
yeah, listening on all
20:21
I'm trying to use pxe boot from a vm
20:21
not sure what I'm doing wrong
20:21
or half-right :-P
20:22
<jammcq>
how did you setup the interface?
20:22
did you bond it to one of the nics?
20:23
<nothingman>
thought I did it right
20:23
<jammcq>
what vm software are you using?
20:24
<nothingman>
made a tap device, added it to the bridge, set its ip, made a dhcpd.conf subnet for it, restarted dhcpd3-server, set up another tap device, added it to the same bridge, specified it as the interface for the vm's nic
20:24
kvm, qemu, vbox
20:24
I get an IP for each, but no tftp
20:25
<jammcq>
hmm. I did it with vmware and just setup a bridged interface and it worked
20:25
<nothingman>
OK, so could I bother you to describe the steps to making the interfaces?
20:25
<jammcq>
in vmware?
20:26
<nothingman>
yeah
20:26
<jammcq>
when I run vmware-config.pl, I just say I want to create an interface and bridge it to eth0
20:26
<nothingman>
I mean you had to configure the interfaces on the host OS, right?
20:26
<jammcq>
I just bridged to eth0, which was already configured
20:29
<nothingman>
so: brctl addbr br0; brctl addif br0 eth0; tunctl -u <user>; brctl addif br0 tap0 right?
20:29
<jammcq>
huh?
20:29
I didn't do any of that
20:29
<nothingman>
then specify tap0 as the interface in vmware?
20:29
<jammcq>
I just ran vmware-config.pl and told it I wanted to bridge to eth0
20:29
and that was it
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20:31
<jammcq>
cliebow: hey
20:32
<cliebow>
jammcq:Hey!!
20:33
<jammcq>
cliebow: how's winter in SWHarbor?
20:34
<cliebow>
snow al the time..and lots of outside work on the new gouse in Trenton..they ripped the roof off bodily and dumped it on the ground..so i am dismantling..with an axe
20:34
err house
20:34
<jammcq>
dismanling the roof or the house?
20:35
<cliebow>
roof..but the house they basically tore down..
20:36
we added sso it is now 34x40 basically
20:36
bu the view is absolutely awesome
20:37
<jammcq>
how far away is it?
20:38
<cliebow>
20 min from swh..right near the airport
20:38
<jammcq>
ah
20:38
<cliebow>
looking back to the mt desert hills
20:38
<jammcq>
you'll have to show me next time I'm there
20:39
we should prolly begin the planning for that, eh?
20:39
<cliebow>
id love to..havnt anyone here to show it to..
20:39
yes planning..gues you are going to brazil in june?
20:39
<jammcq>
ype
20:39
yep
20:40
wanna come along?
20:40
<cliebow>
love to..but with two jobs abd everything i have tied up in the new house not doable
20:40
<jammcq>
ah
20:40
I understand
20:41
<cliebow>
we own the swh house outright nut not ready to sell
20:41
i miss the linuxworld trip this time of year
20:43
frigging windows domain join driving me crazy..and ive set it up like fifty times
20:44
you staying busy?
20:45
<jammcq>
yeah, crazy busy
20:46
<cliebow>
that is great! writing code?
20:46
<jammcq>
yep
20:46
doing lots and lots of Perl and Postgres stuff
20:46
<cliebow>
coolio
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21:16
<cliebow>
g'night...google is not my friend tonight
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