IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 8 December 2013   (all times are UTC)

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06:51
<work_alkisg>
vagrantc (for when you're online), wrt LP #1257642, encryption is needed even for local swap partitions, right? (because if not, we can easily avoid the UUID problem by not calling mkswap there)
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11:41
<khildin>
hi all... I have a question
11:41
I have a windows multipoint server 2010 here which has its clients connected through USB
11:42
is there any way to do the same with LTSP so the clients get a linux desktop.... ***trhough USB connection***
11:42
??
11:42
the clients are HP thin cl;ients
11:42
or am I bound to use Userfull solution??
11:51
<alkisg>
khildin: ltsp is about clients that have CPUs, not about dedicated hardware devices like zeroclients
11:52
So for those clients you need the dedicated solution that accompanies the hardware, yeah
11:52
<khildin>
hi alkisg.. thnx
11:52
you know what would be my best bet?... I am currently in Senegal and need to switch windows multipoint 2010 with opensource
11:53
I have seen Userfull....
11:53
is that the only solution??
11:53
<alkisg>
Probably, check also if HP provides any solution. I haven't heard of any open source project about those devices.
11:53
<khildin>
that you know if
11:54
that would be too bad... since all fat clients are all running edubuntu... and having 6 thin clients with windows kind of messes up the environment...
11:55
<alkisg>
You could run an LTSP server in a VM inside the windows solution
11:55
<khildin>
so I am looking for a multiseat sollution on linux... perferably ubuntu based
11:55
<alkisg>
Multiseat in Linux is about multiple monitors/keyboards etc, not about zeroclients
11:55
<khildin>
but how am I goint to pass the desktop to the thin clients then?
11:56
but it IS a multiseat solution... as far as I understood
11:56
<alkisg>
With e.g. x2goclient from inside their windows session
11:56
There are multiple kinds of multiseat environments
11:56
<khildin>
I could try x2go then...
11:57
what kinds you know off?... since I am searching... but only Userfull came up...
11:57
probably I use the wrong search arguments... ;)
11:57
<alkisg>
For 6 clients, I'd just buy a few real thin clients, for a few $$ each
11:58
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiseat_configuration
11:58
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MultiseatX
11:58
<khildin>
well... the windows solution with 6 clients was donated by an US organisation.... And I just found the stuff lying around in the school I am helping out
11:59
<alkisg>
If you're going to spend e.g. 50 hours to get it right, and 6 old thin clients cost 100€, that would mean you work for less than 2€ per hour
11:59
<khildin>
multiseat on ubuntu looks promising...
11:59
hahahahah I work for 0 already... ;)
11:59
<alkisg>
:)
12:00
<khildin>
would ubuntu multiseatX work with ***USB*** clients??
12:00
<alkisg>
No
12:00
<khildin>
only with networked clients
12:00
<alkisg>
No
12:00
<khildin>
??
12:00
<alkisg>
LTSP == networked clients
12:01
Zero clients == usb, special hardware, multiseat
12:01
X multiseat = multiple usb keyboards and monitors on the same server without special hardware
12:01
<khildin>
the HP clients connect directly to the 'server' wich currently runs windows 2010 multipoint server
12:01
<alkisg>
LTSP isn't multiseat, it's multi... client
12:02
<khildin>
I probably should check what the HP 'clients' do... maybe they just are a gateway for mouse, screen, keyboard and sound
12:03
I should have written the type of those HP clients....
12:03
now I can't look them up
12:03
bah... :)
12:04
it is not that easy to get an internet connection overhere.... the school is on an island without ....
12:04
I am now on shore in an internet cafe
12:06
in senegal
12:08
<alkisg>
I think in your place I would leave the school to use windows :)
12:09
<khildin>
then the classroom will have a multi OS environment.... that isn't too easy to teach to children that know little about computers... but maybe you are right
12:09
<alkisg>
I mean that I would switch the edubuntu computers to use windows terminal services too
12:09
<khildin>
and get some 'real' thin clients when I get back...
12:09
<alkisg>
And there on Windows, I would use any FLOSS program I could...
12:10
<khildin>
it is not terminal services...
12:10
and there are no licences for that
12:10
<alkisg>
It's a kind of terminal services, you have multiple users
12:10
You need licenses there afaik
12:10
E.g. 4 users are not allowed to run msoffice, photoshop etc simultaneously with the same license
12:10
<khildin>
I I definately don't want to promote pirating software
12:11
<alkisg>
If you don't have the licenses, you already do :)
12:11
<khildin>
the software on the server has been donated by USAid.... and has 6 licenses
12:12
but they more or less dumped the server and clients.... and now they are lying around...
12:12
it works... but that's about it
12:12
see the 'challenge'??
12:12
<alkisg>
Does it have 6 licenses for every software, or just for windows CALs?
12:13
<khildin>
I only checked for windows calls
12:13
<alkisg>
All the rest == pirated
12:13
<khildin>
don't know for office.... but Libreoffice will be installed anyway
12:13
anyway... it would be best if I can switch to linux for multiseat
12:14
<alkisg>
Why multiseat instead of read thin/fat clients?
12:14
*real
12:14
<khildin>
cos the clients are not real thin clients
12:14
the ooption could be to get some real thin clients....
12:15
<alkisg>
OK, then you mean to switch to userful, not to e.g. multiseat x...
12:16
<khildin>
hmm... I have to know what the HP clients exactly do and can then
12:16
<alkisg>
If they connect with usb, forget multiseat X :)
12:17
<khildin>
multiseat x is only networked?
12:17
<alkisg>
No, it's about NOT having clients
12:17
Having only monitors and keyboards and mouse
12:18
<khildin>
how are multiple monitors connected to a single cumpoter then?.... have multiple video cards??
12:18
<alkisg>
Yes
12:18
E.g. 3 cards with 3 outputs each => 9 seats
12:18
<khildin>
that's not the way I guess
12:19
this set has only 1 video output
12:20
the HP client connects through USB to the server.... and on the HP client there is a connection for video, mouse, keyboard and audio
12:20
<alkisg>
Yes, I know... it's the zeroclients I've been telling you about all the time :)
12:20
<khildin>
and on the server I have like 8 or more USB ports
12:20
<alkisg>
The only related solution I know of for linux, is userful
12:20
<khildin>
yeah... right... it is starting to het to me now.... :)
12:21
<alkisg>
Some people here have switched from userful to ltsp because it sucked
12:21
So I never bothered to look into it for details...
12:21
That (it sucked) probably was the reason for the donation, too :D
12:21
<khildin>
so the best thing is to switch to real thin clients and implement LTSP...
12:21
<alkisg>
Real fat clients, not thin
12:22
<khildin>
ok... that to save some memory on the server
12:22
<alkisg>
Thins are mostly for when the $$ are not enough to buy fats :D
12:22
No, to be able to run multimedia apps like browsers more smoothly
12:22
!flash
12:22
<ltsp>
flash: Yes, flash sucks. An HD full screen 30 fps video needs 2.5 Gbps bandwidth (1920×1080×4×30)! Make sure you have LDM_DIRECTX=True in your lts.conf file, or if it's just youtube you're after, try some flash replacing plugin like http://linterna-magica.nongnu.org
12:23
<alkisg>
...2.5 Gbps of bandwidth per client ... is a good reason to prefer fats
12:24
<khildin>
full hd is out of the question... highest resolution we have here is 1366*768
12:25
<alkisg>
And you have 10 gbps bandwidth?
12:25
<khildin>
nope.... 1Gb
12:25
on local lan
12:25
<alkisg>
Because 1366*768=1.5 Gb per client
12:25
Multiply that with 10 clients...
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13:00
<khildin>
andygraybeal, ping
13:00
how is life my friend
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13:33
<andygraybeal>
khildin, things are good.
13:33
i'm in a totally different world now.
13:33
<khildin>
me too
13:33
I am in Senegal...
13:33
<andygraybeal>
i'm working at a farm. i just had a kid two weeks ago... he is still in NICU... 2.5 hours away from me.
13:33
senegal, i hav to look that up.
13:34
<khildin>
africa
13:34
<andygraybeal>
you were in ireland right?
13:34
<khildin>
west coast
13:34
no... Belgium
13:34
<andygraybeal>
aah belgium yes.
13:34
tell me what your doing.
13:34
<khildin>
but now for 3 weeks in Senegal.... 100miles south east of Dakar
13:34
<andygraybeal>
why are you there?
13:34
<khildin>
setting up a network on a school
13:35
installing zentyal on the main server as we speak
13:35
<andygraybeal>
aah very awesome, you are very lucky... i would love to do such work for kids.... they would actually appreciate my efforts.. i hate adults and their horrible mindset.
13:35
are you using 3.0 w/ samba 4 ?
13:35
<khildin>
zentyal 3.2 with samba4
13:36
<andygraybeal>
are things working well? are any windows machines involved?
13:36
<khildin>
there is a windows multipoint server... but all other clients are edubuntu
13:36
<andygraybeal>
hahah multipoint server...
13:37
<khildin>
ssshhhhhhhhhhhh
13:37
<andygraybeal>
what a waste of resources and money
13:37
hahahahah
13:37
:)
13:37
<khildin>
not my choice... it was a donation of USAid
13:37
<andygraybeal>
i hope your trying to phase that out?
13:37
<khildin>
yup... looking at userful now
13:37
<andygraybeal>
USAid.. brought to you by microsoft, the philanthropists.
13:37
<khildin>
something like that
13:38
<andygraybeal>
i've not heard of Userful
13:38
just setup LTSP and be done yes? like you said, edubuntu
13:38
<khildin>
userful.com.... check it out
13:38
<andygraybeal>
okay
13:38
why use multiseat when you can use terminal server?
13:38
<khildin>
the 'clients' donated are HP zeroclients without networking
13:39
they connect through USB
13:39
<andygraybeal>
i have used userful
13:39
<khildin>
again.... not my choice
13:39
<andygraybeal>
it was a long time ago
13:39
it hardly scales!
13:39
but i understand, the philanthropy
13:39
<khildin>
so you are the expert in configuring that.... :P
13:39
<andygraybeal>
juaahahaha no, i just go tit to work, i'm no expert at all
13:40
it costs money right?
13:40
<khildin>
DON 'T RUN AWAY NOW
13:40
lol
13:40
<andygraybeal>
so these zeroclients don't have a network port in'em?
13:40
<khildin>
in the world of blink 1-eye is king you know
13:41
<andygraybeal>
wow, in the world of blink, 1-eye is king... i've never heard that saying.
13:41
<khildin>
blind*
13:41
<andygraybeal>
you can't get these HP zeroclients to accidentally get on a network?
13:41
<khildin>
no... there is no network interface
13:41
<andygraybeal>
blasted!!!!
13:42
<khildin>
that is what I said a gazillion times already
13:42
<andygraybeal>
what are people thinking.
13:43
<khildin>
and getting the install files isn't easy .... on the island where the school is... no internet....
13:43
<andygraybeal>
you are awesome.
13:43
<khildin>
and here on the mainland.... I have a whopping 100Kb/s
13:43
<andygraybeal>
hahahah
13:43
you are definetly awesome.
13:44
<khildin>
yeah yeah... awesome... and blessed whit a lot of patience and coffee
13:44
<andygraybeal>
who is funding you, how did you wind up here?
13:44
i have to loook up HP zerolcient
13:44
<khildin>
a dutch foundation.... is run by a friend of mine and he asked me to come over...
13:45
if you can do that for me and fill me in cos connection is BAD here....
13:45
<andygraybeal>
are you on irc on shell? or on local client?
13:46
<khildin>
I just talked with alkisg and already told him I should have written down the type of HP zeroclient we have
13:46
I have xchat
13:46
<andygraybeal>
ok
13:46
you know, i'm of no use... accept for chatting it up :)
13:46
<khildin>
lmao
13:47
<andygraybeal>
so how scalable is this multipoint stuff.. maybe 10 clients tops?
13:47
am i out of my mind?
13:47
not even multipoint, but userful... multiheadedness... etc. .hwatever it's called.
13:47
<khildin>
dunno.... but I only have 6 clients
13:48
<andygraybeal>
they are gonna pay you more than buying networkable thinclients would be....
13:48
can you do... some type of ethernet over usb awfulness?
13:49
and pxe boot like so? that seems like another nightmare..
13:49
nevermind that idea.. i will engage my own lashings for even mentioning it!
13:50
<khildin>
multipoint is not thin client...
13:50
<andygraybeal>
no i understand, i'm saying get rid of multipoint!
13:50
and try and get those zeroconfs to be thinclients!
13:50
then hook'em up to regular edubuntu :)
13:50
isn't the xconf a nightmare? right?
13:52
what model do you have?
13:52
did you say you forgot?
13:53
<khildin>
I have no means to buy that would be the best option yes
13:53
<andygraybeal>
hp 310 ?
13:53
you think they will pay you more to fuss with this (short term and long term) than purchasing regular thinclients?
13:55
the HP 310 has nic. you must have different model
13:55
*t310
13:56
<khildin>
I didn't write the type... but they might well be hp 310'S
13:56
oh... they have NO nic
13:56
<andygraybeal>
hmmm each of these hp zeroclients have nics..
13:56
<khildin>
so not the 310's
13:56
I am 100% the rubbish they gave has no nic
13:56
<andygraybeal>
i'm lookin at the the 3xx,4xx,5xx series
13:56
no i believe you
13:56
i'm trying to find what yuo got
13:56
<khildin>
hehe
13:58
but for now I will have a go with userful
13:58
downloading install files and manual
13:58
<andygraybeal>
doesn't userful cost money?
13:58
<khildin>
while installing zentyal server... multitasking eh...
13:58
yes... I think something like 30 bucks per client
13:59
<andygraybeal>
one time purchase?
13:59
<khildin>
yeah
13:59
at least it gives me an all edubuntu environment
14:00
<andygraybeal>
so you boot the main multipoint machine on edubuntu?
14:00
and userful the other clients?
14:00
<khildin>
that's the idea
14:00
<andygraybeal>
i think the xorg conf would kill me ;)
14:01
hopefully userful manages all that well
14:01
<khildin>
userfull makes the main machine share the screen with the clients
14:01
and they get there own session
14:01
though USB..... *uche uche*
14:02
<andygraybeal>
hehehehehe
14:02
<khildin>
through*
14:02
<andygraybeal>
well good luck /me washes hands
14:02
heheheh
14:03
<khildin>
maybe I should contact USAid..... and try to find the guy that thought it was a good idea to drop a multipoint server in the middle of nowhere in Africa
14:03
<andygraybeal>
you wouldn't happen to by chance no have a good web-based "Todo" list that user multi-user and ldap-able ?
14:03
<khildin>
hmm... no
14:03
<andygraybeal>
hahahahahaha i'm sure it was bill gates himself.... are you kidding?
14:03
he's quite the philanthropist!
14:04
<khildin>
then I have to get a big bat and hit him hard.... :P
14:04
<andygraybeal>
multioint server isn't cheap.. no?
14:04
<khildin>
I have absolutely no idea
14:04
<andygraybeal>
well it's at least not free ... and i'm sure not $30/client
14:05
<khildin>
the weird thing is... they didn't bother to activate the client licenses, while they are there
14:05
<andygraybeal>
so it's out of the question to purchase a 10dollar usb dongle?
14:05
and try to pxe that shiat?
14:05
i mean usb - ethernet dongle
14:05
<khildin>
dongle with usb to ethernet??
14:05
<andygraybeal>
i doubt that would be possible though.
14:05
pxe a usb-ethernet....
14:06
you'd have to test and make sure driver supported that crap
14:06
before suggesting it as a solution
14:06
<khildin>
hmm...
14:06
<andygraybeal>
i'm looking up now...
14:06
<khildin>
maybe I can get a dongle in Dakar
14:07
<andygraybeal>
it would need to be well supported to run pxe i would think
14:07
good driver suport not random
14:07
http://askubuntu.com/questions/293068/usb-ethernet-dongle-pxe-support
14:08
<khildin>
question is, if there is enough (any) memory in the zeroclients
14:08
cos for pxe you need at least some
14:09
<andygraybeal>
aah
14:09
k.. i didn't connect the dots on that.
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14:10
<andygraybeal>
so it's on an island.. the kids?
14:10
<khildin>
I will have to look up the type of the zeroclient
14:10
yes
14:10
on an island
14:10
<andygraybeal>
you are wild :)
14:10
<khildin>
ile de Mar
14:11
about 100-120 km south-east of Dakar
14:13
<andygraybeal>
google maps puts me in the mainland...
14:13
yes, you are wild :) very good for you
14:14
<khildin>
https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=204156085136941213118.0004d6a90def5318bae9d
14:15
that's the exact location
14:15
it's an island in the river delta
14:15
<andygraybeal>
aaaah okay
14:15
very cool
14:16
i wasn't thinking river delta i understand
14:16
hahaha yes, nuts :) extreme computing in a sense.
14:16
<khildin>
:)
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14:16
<andygraybeal>
do they have power infrastructure?
14:16
<khildin>
solar
14:16
also implemented by the foundation I support
14:17
<andygraybeal>
k
14:18
that is wild :)
14:19
<khildin>
is your french any good?.... the project page of the foundation is available in dutch and french
14:19
http://www.zegaaneenschoolbouwen.nl/fr-actualite.html
14:20
<andygraybeal>
no i am a typically ignorant member of the united states... i use google translate
14:20
<khildin>
hehe
14:20
my french is getting better every day.... :P
14:23
<andygraybeal>
that is fun.
14:24
i hate to be the negative guy in the room.. but sometimes i see philanthropy as what early missions did to natives...
14:24
overall it is good.. but the whole very expensive solution that is hardly sustainable.. when there is a free and sustainable way to do it...
14:25
softwarewise.. wow.
14:25
i feel bad for you, you will figure it out.
14:27
i hope they appreciate and respect your work.
14:29
keep me posted, i am interested in your outcome!
14:29
how long is your stay?
14:30
<khildin>
i ĺl be here for 2 more weeks.... 3.5 weeks in total
14:31
<andygraybeal>
did you have to get shots to be there?
14:32
<khildin>
yes....
14:34
<andygraybeal>
how are you doing this without internet access on the island?
14:34
<khildin>
haha.... no time for internet there
14:36
<andygraybeal>
what does that mean?
14:37
<khildin>
that i am busy so much i don't have time to lurk on internet.... :)
14:37
i am now cos i need to install the server
14:37
<andygraybeal>
that' is what i'm getting at!!!
14:38
how can you even get this work done w/o the internet (not lurking)
14:38
<khildin>
I had a lot on an external disk
14:38
and a ot already was prepared at home
14:39
<andygraybeal>
ah okay
14:39
that is a nther dimension of effort that i cannot imagine :)
14:40
<khildin>
most work was getting the network installed
14:40
<andygraybeal>
ah neat!!
14:41
<khildin>
i bought some nice wifi ap's
14:41
<andygraybeal>
ah cool, what brand?
14:42
if there is enough money in your next venture, keep me in mind!
14:42
i wil have to get a visa to leave the country
14:42
or whatever it is called, passport
14:43
i would love to be an apprentice of such things!
14:44
<khildin>
engenius ecb 350
14:45
<andygraybeal>
ah never heard
14:45
will look it up now
14:45
<khildin>
3 pieces
14:45
and a switch with PoE
14:46
:) sure can use any help
14:46
maybe I go again in April next year
14:47
for another challenge: internet connection over wifi with a distance of 5 km
14:47
<andygraybeal>
microwave?
14:47
5km... geesh :)
14:47
line of site?
14:53
i have no idea about wireless internet of that :)
15:01
<khildin>
yeah there is a line of sight
15:01
i use a watertower close by the school for extra hight
15:01
at least that is the idea
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15:05
<khildin>
wb alkisg
15:07* alkisg waves
15:07
<khildin>
i am gonna try userful.... lets see how it works
15:07
<alkisg>
khildin: if you ever have any spare jobs there, ping me :P
15:08
<khildin>
enough work... but no pay...
15:08
i am doing this for 0
15:08
only thing what is payed is travel and living
15:09
but still.... amazing overhere....
15:09
i already said... if this isn't paradise... what is??
15:13* alkisg wholeheartedly agrees
15:15
<khildin>
alkisg, you are in greece right?
15:15
<alkisg>
Yup
15:15
It was a paradise here too, before the fake crisis...
15:15
<khildin>
yeah....
15:15
EU sucks
15:16
too many people that grab aas much money as they can get
15:43
i am gone for today... bye
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20:36
<alkisg>
vagrantc: hi! got time for chitchat? E.g. I want to set ENCRYPTED_SWAP=False by default for local swap disks, and increase the default NBD_RAM_THRESHOLD to 2100 for fat clients...
20:37
I got reports about fat clients with 1 GB RAM hanging when they opened multiple programs, and increasing the NBD_RAM_THRESHOLD fixed it...
20:41
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i was working on a reply to that
20:41
<alkisg>
vagrantc: ah ok np I'll wait :)
20:42
<vagrantc>
alkisg: the short of it is i think it should be encrypted by default, which is probably no surprise to you :)
20:42
<alkisg>
No problem, I can provide default values that suit schools here with our sch-scripts package
20:42
(I already did that for both of those variables today)
20:43
And, about NBD_RAM_THRESHOLD? Personally I would always use NBD swap except for the case when it's manually disabled, or there's local swap available...
20:44
<vagrantc>
it only enables ENCRYPTED_SWAP if cryptsetup is installed
20:44
<alkisg>
It's Recommented, though
20:44
So it's there in the default installation
20:44
(at least in Debian, I think it's not in Ubuntu, but I'm using your packaging :))
20:44
<vagrantc>
the NBD_RAM_THRESHOLD does what? enabled NBD swap if below that number?
20:44
<alkisg>
Yup
20:45
In the current code I had set it to 300 for thin clients, 800 for fats
20:45
But for real life scenarios, 800 is too little for fat clients
20:45
<vagrantc>
obsese clients...
20:45
<alkisg>
...and actually 300 is too little for thins as well
20:46
vagrantc: does cryptsetup write to all the blocks of the swap disk that it prepares?
20:46
I.e., usually swap files are sparse, but if they're zero-filled, then their space is actually allocated in the server disk...
20:47
<vagrantc>
it's certainly imperfect encryption
20:47
it doesn't overwrite the whole space
20:47
<alkisg>
Nice
20:47
<vagrantc>
anyone paranoid enough to worry about that shouldn't be using networked swap
20:48
<alkisg>
So, if swap has low overhead for the server (sparse files etc), do you see any issues in bumping NBD_RAM_THRESHOLD to e.g. 800 MB for thin clients and 2100 for fat clients?
20:49
<vagrantc>
alkisg: other than balking at the idea of needing swap at all with those numbers, no. :)
20:49* vagrantc sighs
20:49
<alkisg>
Yeah, especially thin clients shouldn't have to suffer with firefox and libreoffice's X pixmaps and all...
20:50
500 mb ram just for image caching is awful
20:51
vagrantc: ah, so, for local swap, if we want it encrypted by default, I guess we'll have to read the current UUID, right?
20:53
<vagrantc>
alkisg: which is impossible
20:53
well, should be
20:53
<alkisg>
blkid prints it
20:53
<vagrantc>
at least, once it's been encrypted
20:53
<alkisg>
Ah
20:53
<vagrantc>
the encrypted swap implementation uses throw-away keys
20:54
<alkisg>
So the UUID is not in some header, but it's inside the encrypted space?
20:54
<vagrantc>
should be
20:55
<alkisg>
OK, that's actually good, I can just close the bug report without committing any code about it :)
20:55* alkisg is fine with defaulting to ENCRYPTED_SWAP=False and UUID not being modified there
21:03
<vagrantc>
defaulting LTSP to encrypted_swap=false?
21:03* vagrantc brbs
21:03
<alkisg>
No no just sch-scripts
21:03
<vagrantc>
ah, ok.
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