IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 24 March 2016   (all times are UTC)

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06:20
<gehidore>
if you did have an api you would always make it backwards compatible... ;)
06:21
<alkisg>
Nope, see history of all apis :)
06:21
<highvoltage>
lol, I was thinking it but didn't want to say it
06:21
<alkisg>
Java, .NET, whatever
06:22
It's actually the reason for the first version digit to change, as in ltsp 5 vs ltsp 6, or in .net framework 2 to 3
06:22
The second digit means it's backwards compatible within the same version
06:23
...within the same major (=first digit) release
06:26
<gehidore>
heh
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06:29
<gehidore>
I love building api's admittedly it's been a few years something just magical about that added layer of complexity
06:31
<alkisg>
The windows api is the most compatible i've ever seen; some programs from windows 95 can still run on windows 10, 20 years later...
06:32
<gehidore>
here's to rebooting and hoping nothing failed :P
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07:23
<gehidore>
well that was a failure
07:23
somehow /boot became _not_ mounted so had module missmatch
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08:32
<jdbway>
I've been working with linux for only a few months now. I got a raspberry pi 3 and my laptop dual booted with Ubuntu. I have never received support for linux. Is there really a stranger out there who will help me with issues? I was able to get to the LTSP login screen on my pi the other day, but when I log in, I see a blinking x for a few seconds then a message that LTSP is restarting, and back to the client logon again.
08:33
I ended up installing both ltsp-server and ltsp-server-standalone and who knows what else in the process of trying to get this working. I changed config files in various places, some seeming redundant so I'm not sure which one is which (some config files in different directories look identical)
08:35
<alkisg>
!raspberrypi
08:35
<ltsp>
raspberrypi: (#1) Ubuntu/LTSP on Pi 2: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/RaspberryPi, or (#2) Debian/LTSP (with raspbian chroot) on Pi: http://cascadia.debian.net/trenza/Documentation/raspberrypi-ltsp-howto/, or (#3) unofficial Ubuntu/LTSP (with raspbian chroot) on Pi: http://pinet.org.uk/
08:35
<jdbway>
I probably need to turn off my router's DHCP and make sure the Ubuntu server DHCP is working, but without knowing the exact config files to change, I'm shooting in the dark.
08:35
<alkisg>
Reinstall using (#1) option there
08:35
It'll be harder to undo whatever changes you made, if you're just starting
08:35
Use Ubuntu 16.04 if it's an option for you
08:37
<jdbway>
I have 14.04 right now. Can I update? It wouldnt be a problem for me. I will move forward with reinstallation. Thank you so much!
08:37
<alkisg>
You can try it as it is now too... it's possible it'll just work
08:39
<jdbway>
OK, Ill try with 14.04. I used berryboot to install the client. I see #1 references copying the client to the SDcard. I should be able to ignore the client side setup, yeah?
08:39
<alkisg>
No
08:39
<jdbway>
darn
08:39
<alkisg>
You need to copy the kernel+initrd once
08:39
Then it auto-updates
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08:40
<jdbway>
ok here goes
08:44
Im such a noob. I dont see reinstallation instructions, but if I just apt-get remove packages with ltsp in the name, is that good?
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09:34
<Hyperbyte>
jdbway, if you just want to reinstall the client, remove everything in /opt/ltsp/ and run ltsp-build-client again
09:35
If you need to reinstall ltsp entirely, then removing packages with ltsp in the name would be good.
09:35
<jdbway>
thank you! I am running through the reinstallation as we speak. I should be able to copy the files to the SD card pretty soon.
09:50
<Hyperbyte>
How is your first open-source support experience so far? ;-)
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10:01
<jdbway>
I;m blown away that this actually exists. The more I learn about open source, the better it gets.
10:02
how can I support your efforts?
10:09
<Hyperbyte>
Ah, well, I'll just send you my bank number later then. :-)
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10:26
<jdbway>
if you do that, you might be supporting ME!
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10:42
<alkisg>
Paid LTSP support is always available if anyone's interested... :)
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10:57
<fenixfunk5>
!nfs
10:57
<ltsp>
nfs: the protocol that serves the files needed by LTSP. You can find info at http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/NFS
10:58
<themis21>
Καλησπέρα Άλκη, είσαι εδώ;
10:58
<alkisg>
Γεια σου Θέμη, ναι αλλά είσαι σε λάθος κανάλι
10:58
Γράψε αυτό όπως είσαι: /join #ts.sch.gr
10:59
Εδώ είναι μόνο αγγλικό κανάλι
11:04
<Hyperbyte>
jdbway, in all honesty - the whole idea behind open-source, and why it works, is that people do things for free for you, in return, you can do things for free for other people.
11:05
There are thousands of open-source projects that you can contribute to, depending on your skillset. :-)
11:12
<alkisg>
Hyperbyte: that's really not true
11:12
Open source developers never work for much time in a project without getting paid for it
11:12
And that's the main reason open source projects stagnate
11:15
When open source projects are backed up by companies or donations, then they succeed
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11:19
<jdbway>
thanks for all the help, guys. I got stuck, gonna have to pick it up again tomorrow. I copied the pi boot files i created from the #1 option above to /boot instead of root. Because I'm using berryboot, this replaced all the berryboot files. Im stuck on the initial pi color palette screen. Fortunately I backed up /boot, so I'll replace the bak and go from there tomorrow.
11:19
guys and gals, I should say.
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16:03
<ginko_>
any body help me?
16:04
i use pinet system im using epoptes but the client not displaying in epoptes
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16:09
<alkisg>
Sure
16:10
...we need to put a banner in the webchat that tells the people how irc works
16:13
<maldridge>
would have thought that was the "... and hang around for an answer." bit
16:13
<vagrantc>
people are too used to popups trying to get their attention to pay attention to anything
16:16
<alkisg>
vagrantc: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=819160
16:16
...it's ok that I instructed him to use the upstream bug tracker, right?
16:16
I really hate the mail-only based bugtracker... :D
16:16
...and it's best to have the distro-specific bugs in their bug trackers, and the upstream ones in the central bug tracker...
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19:03
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i think it's fine to ask about using the upstream tracker, but if someone prefers to use the debian bug tracker, i think of it as a package maintainers responsibility to forward bugs upstream
19:03
alkisg: e.g. i don't want to have to learn a bug reporting system for each of the 20,000+ source packages in Debian, but i'd like to be able to report bugs when i find them
19:04
alkisg: and i really like the mail-only based bugtracker :)
19:06
alkisg: but i wouldn't ask them to close the bug report... if a bug is still present, it should be left open or marked as wontfix or whatever, so that the next user that comes across the issue will have a chance of finding the state of things
19:09
<alkisg>
vagrantc: what's the equivalent of "invalid" in debian?
19:09
I.e. the person was using the SCREEN_07=xfreerdp directive in the wrong way
19:10
About upstream bugs, my view is that users should be politely asked to file them upstream, and if they don't want to or cannot do it, then sure it's valid to have them in the distro bug trackers,
19:10
<vagrantc>
using SCREEN_07=xfreerdp requires specifying arguments?
19:10
<alkisg>
SCREEN_07="xfreerdp params"
19:11
While he was using the RDP_OPTIONS etc syntax, which is kinda deprecated
19:11
<vagrantc>
i'd probably mark it as wontfix then, as it's an understandable "mistake"
19:11
<alkisg>
(continuing the previous though)...but for example, I wouldn't go to the fedora bug tracker to solve an ltsp bug, I would expect the fedora maintainer to forward it upstream, and that's extra work for the maintainer
19:12
For me wontfix (=valid but we don't want to fix it) is different than invalid..., but ok whatever is the norm there
19:12
<vagrantc>
i wouldn't leave it up to the users to determine what's a debian-specific or ltsp-specific bug ... that's where someone with expertise can forward appropriately
19:12
<alkisg>
You don't do that though, do you?
19:13
Do you forward all those bugs upstream?
19:13
I think no, because it's extra work, which is exactly my point
19:13
<vagrantc>
alkisg: there's also a summary feature which i think would make sense with wontfix, but i haven't used it, as it's a "new" feature introduced sometime in the last 5-10 years :)
19:13
<alkisg>
I prefer to put more overhead to the users than to distro maintainers...
19:14
<vagrantc>
alkisg: with ltsp the line between the distro and upstream is kind of questionable
19:14
for many bugs
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19:14
<alkisg>
If it's in the debian/ folder, it should be filed in the debug bug tracker
19:14
If not, it should be filed upstream
19:14
(the code that needs to be fixed to address the bug)
19:16
Whatever is in the ltsp-trunk code should be filed or forwarded to the upstream bug tracker...
19:18
<vagrantc>
if it's in a Debian-specific directory, i'm not sure it *needs* to be filed upstream.
19:18
the xfreerdp screen script, sure, that makes sense to get forwarded upstream
19:19
<alkisg>
knipwim left. A gentoo user finds a bug in the Gentoo/ subdirectory. Since we have rights to push the fix, it should be filed upstream.
19:19
<vagrantc>
i've been lax on that given that there hasn't been a lot of other people working on the debian packaging until fairly recently
19:19
<alkisg>
LTSP upstream is a cross-distro effort; we agreed to keep all those dirs in our trunk, and we have to maintain it (even if that means removing an unmaintained dir) even if distro-maintainers leave
19:20
<vagrantc>
i hear you, i guess i'm just not so absolutist about it.
19:20
<alkisg>
I just like to find easy lines to instruct the users
19:21
I.e. if the code you want to change is in ltsp-trunk, file it there
19:21
I'm not saying that I won't work on bugs if they're filed in other trackers...
19:22
It took me 2-3 years at first to understand why most of my launchpad bugs weren't processed
19:23
I just want to save the users from having the same problem, to give them an easy line to decide which bugs they need to file upstream and which ones in their distro-trackers
19:23
<vagrantc>
because there was virtually nobody using that bug tracking system?
19:23
or rather, maintaining it
19:23
<alkisg>
Right, same as in most distros
19:24
The distro maintainers don't bother with upstream bugs much
19:24
Forwarding bugs is a mundane task
19:25
It's best to instruct the user to file the bug appropriately, so now I only file it in launchpad if it concerns an Ubuntu diff
19:25
<vagrantc>
well, on ubuntu launchpad is both upstream and ubuntu bugs?
19:25
<alkisg>
It really took me 2-3 years to realize that, when I started using linux on a daily basis
19:25
Some projects use launchpad as their upstream code management system
19:26
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/ is the upstream bug tracker
19:26
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp is the ubuntu-specific bug tracker
19:26
<vagrantc>
right
19:26
<alkisg>
4 years ago I spend a couple of days moving the bugs from one to the other
19:26
Most users don't understand the different between them
19:27
It might get simpler if we switch to launchpad
19:27
*to github
19:27
For now, I find it best if we have very simple instructions about where we want each of the ltsp bugs, distro specific or upstream ones... just 2-3 lines of instructions.
19:28
I think giving such instructions is a good thing; and it's also a good thing if we process the bugs no matter where they're filed anyway. I don't think that's being absolute...
19:33
<maldridge>
alkisg: take a look at gitlab, its less performant, but has more useful features imho
19:33
and isn't falling apart due to internal management issues
19:34
<vagrantc>
we could also host our own gitlab ... if we really wanted to
19:35
i daresay, though, sticking with a provider on which many people already have accounts is tempting
19:36
even though in priciple i would prefer for projects to host their own
19:36
principle
19:37
comes down to who does the work, to a large extent
19:38
alkisg: i don't see anything wrong with putting up recommendations for where users should report bugs, as long as it's made clear that we would rather the report the bug somewhere than worry about reporting it to the wrong place
19:39
hard enough getting people to report bugs when they're unsure if it's even "worth" reporting
19:39
<alkisg>
Sure
19:39
maldridge: I'm fine with launchpad, vagrantc is the one pushing for github, and I don't really mind much if we switch as long as we still have translations and automatic builds
19:39
<maldridge>
vagrantc: $dayjob is testing that out, we've found you need a surprisingly beefy box to host it and remain performant
19:40
<vagrantc>
or whichever system they feel most comfortable reporting with
19:40
<alkisg>
So if it's gitlab vs github, vagrantc is the one you'd need to convince
19:40
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i'm not explicitly pushing for github, though i have a moderate preference to switch to git.
19:40
<maldridge>
ha, I'm fine with launchpad tbh, but bazaar is perhaps the worst system for retrieving source code I've ever seen
19:40
worse than even svn
19:40
<alkisg>
They've already started supporting git
19:41
<vagrantc>
yeah, i'm more interested in launchpad's git support at this point
19:41* alkisg isn't really comfortable with the debian bug tracker... I don't even know how to properly tag bugs :)
19:41
<vagrantc>
at the end of the day, the revision control system doesn't matter a whole lot, as long as it's distributed.
19:41
<maldridge>
what are you using for automatic builds now? shouldn't that be handled at the distro level? or are you referring to CI?
19:42
<alkisg>
Yup I mean automatic builds for ubuntu, they're handled by launchpad recipes
19:42
<vagrantc>
we don't do any continuious integration now
19:42
<maldridge>
yeah, not really sure what you'd even test for in a CI build with ltsp
19:43
<vagrantc>
alkisg: just reply to the bug, and put one of the commands in https://www.debian.org/Bugs/server-control prefixed with Control: at the beginning of the email
19:44
alkisg: did i mention that i'm more and more convinced that we shouldn't even have ltsp-build-client for ltsp6 ?
19:44
<alkisg>
Wow!!!
19:44
No ltsp-build-client, no ldm, no getltscfg... it won't be ltsp anymore! :D
19:45
<maldridge>
what would replace it?
19:45
and/or is ltsp5 even worth packaging at this point
19:45
<vagrantc>
maldridge: well, i'm pretty much a convert to the ltsp-pnp method
19:45
!ltsp-pnp | echo maldridge
19:45
<ltsp>
maldridge ltsp-pnp: ltsp-pnp is an alternative (upstream) method to maintain LTSP installations for thin and fat clients that doesn't involve chroots: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
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19:46
<maldridge>
yeah, that's how I manage all my ltsp systems, but the chroot is certainly easier to do from a software side
19:46
<vagrantc>
there are numerous chroot-building tools ... basically you just need a chroot and then install the ltsp-client packages, and build an image out of that chroot.
19:46
<alkisg>
maldridge: it's even possible that ltsp 5 might be the last ltsp version ever, if we end up starting ltsp 6 from a clean tree... it might not be "linux terminal server project" anymore, but something other like configd...
19:46
So yeah ltsp5 is worth packaging, ltsp 6 or whatever follows isn't around the corner
19:46
<maldridge>
oh my, I shall package ltsp5 then
19:47
well as usual my only ask is that the systemd coupling remain low
19:47
<alkisg>
Erm. :)
19:47* vagrantc suspects alkisg is very interested in systemd features
19:47* alkisg was thinking of supporting only systemd-based distros in his projects in the long run :D
19:47
<alkisg>
It allows for much much less distro-specific code
19:48
<maldridge>
I dispute that
19:48
<alkisg>
And LTSP already has very much distro-specific code..
19:48
<maldridge>
it means that your code is implicitly coupled to a few specific distros
19:48
<alkisg>
Check the service list in debian, ubuntu, and fedora, before and after systemd
19:49
<maldridge>
but this is niether the place nor the time for this argument
19:49
<alkisg>
Sure
19:49* vagrantc is so tired of init system arguments
19:49
<maldridge>
I just want to keep using the software I've got
19:50
vagrantc: I'm all for debate and discussion and optimization, but I tend to want more hard metrics than a lot of places have
19:53* vagrantc is generally ok with debate and discussion as long as it doesn't drag out for years and strain community relationships
19:54
<alkisg>
I think the open source community spends too much time in distro-specific tools and features, time that could be much better elsewhere. I like software that will lessen that, and I hope systemd is one of them. It did bring Ubuntu back closer to Debian.
19:54
<maldridge>
that last one is a big one, my local LUG is very divided at the moment
19:56
<alkisg>
That's why I like gnome-software too, it threw away software-center and again brought Ubuntu closer to Debian. Less diff, less work for all.
19:57
<maldridge>
I agree and that is all good and well, but imho userspace programs shouldn't care what they are running on
19:57
<alkisg>
LTSP is mainly about patching /etc so that it doesn't break in netbooting
19:57
<maldridge>
gnome (with some effort) is seperable from systemd and I'm totally fine with that as I understand I'm not in the mainline development target for it, I just hope it stays that way
19:57
<alkisg>
/etc is the most distro-specific directory...
19:58
<maldridge>
well yeah, I'm not sure I am going to be able to get "true" thin clients working correctly on void
19:58
right now it looks like I'm going to have to use an overlayfs so that the base image is r/o and the runtime stuff gets stored in ram
19:59
<alkisg>
That's what ltsp does too
19:59
Which initramfs system are you using? dracut?
20:00
<maldridge>
yeah, its a lot different from when I last learned initramfs magic with debian
20:00
<vagrantc>
initramfs-tools is arguably debian-specific at this point
20:01
and not well maintained, at that ...
20:01
<maldridge>
I know a lot of people now that don't even have an initramfs anymore
20:01
<alkisg>
Does dracut support running shell scripts right before chaining to the mounted root?
20:01
<maldridge>
yeah, it can run arbitrary hooks
20:01
<vagrantc>
alkisg: it supports init=
20:01
<alkisg>
init= is after it chains to the root
20:01
The overlayfs handling should happen right before that,
20:01
<vagrantc>
it can run aritrary hooks... though i recall it being a bit cumbersome and not quite the right timing
20:02
<alkisg>
unless we manage to implement a pivot_root at the init-ltsp stage
20:02
<maldridge>
I'm already running hooks to setup things like nbd/nfs so its not hard to have one more hook to setup the overlay
20:02
<vagrantc>
systems without initramfs aren't generally flexible enough to support arbitrary hardware these days
20:02
<maldridge>
vagrantc: yeah, this is stuff like where they have 100 of the same box
20:02
<alkisg>
maldridge, you did look at how we do it in debian, right?
20:03
<maldridge>
alkisg: I'm still muddling through some of it. My experience with netbooting is more from a sysadmin side than a developer side
20:04
<alkisg>
maldridge: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/ltsp/ltsp-trunk/view/head:/client/Debian/share/initramfs-tools/scripts/init-bottom/ltsp
20:06
<maldridge>
ok, that makes sense
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