IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 9 June 2010   (all times are UTC)

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00:23
<vagrantc>
daduke: you need ldm-server installed
00:23
which contains ldminfod
00:23
which should get configured to run from inetd
00:24
<daduke>
vagrantc: hey! long time no see. Thanks for the hint!
00:24
<vagrantc>
daduke: glad to be seen and helpful :)
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00:25
<daduke>
vagrantc: ldm-server is missing indeed... doesn't it come automatically w/ ltsp-server?
00:25
vagrantc: well apparently it doesn't, but shouldn't it?
00:25
<vagrantc>
should come with ltsp-server-standalone
00:25
<daduke>
vagrantc: ah I see. well we've got an DHCP server already...
00:26
<vagrantc>
ltsp-server should probably suggest it, at least.
00:26
but ltsp-server is just to provide the root filesystem bits ... ltsp-server-standalone depends on all the needed functionality
00:26
at least, that's what i do in debian. i nudge ubuntu to do the same :)
00:26
<daduke>
vagrantc: might be helpful. ldminfod still hasn't been installed tho
00:27
vagrantc: this one's on Lucid
00:27
<alkisg>
$ apt-cache show ltsp-server | grep Recommends
00:27
Recommends: openssh-server | ssh, ltspfs, ldm-server, tftpd-hpa
00:27
$ LANG=C aptitude why ldm-server
00:27
i ltsp-server Recommends ldm-server
00:27
<vagrantc>
should've pulled it in... unless recommends aren't installed by default...
00:27
<alkisg>
They are
00:27
<daduke>
not here ;)
00:28
<alkisg>
Good morning all
00:28
<daduke>
alkisg: good morning, and thanks for your help
00:30
<vagrantc>
and good night :)
00:31
<alkisg>
night vagrantc :)
00:31
<daduke>
sessions are here. thanks a lot!
00:31
vagrantc: good night
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01:33
<alkisg>
Hmmm a client with Intel 82G33/G31 card is booting fine as a fat client but has compiz problems as a thin client...
01:33
Turning compiz off saved the day again.
01:35
Times: first fat boot, 23 secs. Next boots, 13 secs. First thin boot, 15 secs. Next thin boots, 12 secs. Yey!
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02:01
<gnunux>
hi
02:03
<alkisg>
The clients are blanking their monitor after some minutes of inactivity on ldm. Is there some command that I can run with ssh and turn their monitors back on? `xset dpms force on` doesn't seem to work for me...
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02:06
<alkisg>
Ugh never mind I didn't set the XAUTHORITY properly :)
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02:33
<alkisg>
(just taking notes in case anyone else cares) x11vnc delays for 5 secs for each connection to do a ip2host check - it had me waiting for 1 minute to initiate classroom broadcasting before I discovered the problem and put the clients to /etc/hosts.
02:37
-nolookup also did the trick
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02:47
<dobber>
by default there is no swap for the clients ? :(
02:47
<alkisg>
You can easily put one by specifying NBD_SWAP=True
02:47
(if you're using nbd)
02:49
<dobber>
yeah
02:49
but why not put it by default
02:50
we had 4 weeks of constant firefox crashing
02:50
<alkisg>
It doesn't help much anyway as it's only 64M
02:50
It gets automatically enabled for clients with < 100 MB RAM
02:51
Clients with more RAM shouldn't be needing it unless you're using localapps
02:51
In which case you should increase it from 64M to something bigger anyway
02:51
(or use local swap if a disk is available)
02:51
<dobber>
we use localapps
02:52
firefox is local
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02:52
<alkisg>
How much RAM on the clients?
02:52
<dobber>
1 and 2GB of ram
02:53
<alkisg>
Erm, 64M of network swap won't help you in that case
02:54
Do they have local disks?
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03:16
<dobber>
yes but we are goint to remove them
03:17
my co-worker added 1gb of swap per client yesterday
03:17
and i was digging to find out how
03:18
<alkisg>
You can do that from the nbdswapd configuration file, but adding 1 GB of network swap per client might cause problems...
03:20
<dobber>
what kind of problems ?
03:20
that's what he did
03:22
<alkisg>
I suspect creating e.g. 100Gb of swap space on the server would slow down the clents while they boot, and all the network traffic for that swap would also slow them down while running.
03:22
(if a client boots twice it gets a different swap space)
03:23
Do post your findings if you try it...
03:24
<dobber>
we have 5 clients right now and experiancing booting problems
03:24
that's why we have not converted anymore
03:25
<alkisg>
What booting problems?
03:26* alkisg is keeping the local disks on the clients for local swap space...
03:33
<dobber>
i dont know exactly, i've spend almost 30 hours debuging this problem and cant find it
03:33
sometimes when booting the boot process freezes
03:34
well i can boot 1 in 3 freezes
03:34
<alkisg>
Remove "quiet splash" from pxelinux.cfg/default to better see any error messages.
03:34
Also, what NICs do your clients have?
03:34
<dobber>
i did remove it
03:35
and added echo on most lines in the boot scripts
03:35
<alkisg>
(btw, freeze==completely? or it just stops booting but e.g. keyboard works?)
03:35
<dobber>
it freezes in random places
03:35
no keyboard but after 120 seconds i get a kernel error
03:35
<alkisg>
What NICs?
03:35
<dobber>
all kinds of nics
03:35
those were desktop machines
03:36
<alkisg>
So not only realteks?
03:36
Check if removing nbd-proxy helps...
03:36
<dobber>
i have intels for the most
03:37
i have to go buy a new keyboard, be back in an hour or two
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07:09
<dobber>
alkisg i think there is some kind of hardware issue
07:10
<alkisg>
dobber, did you check your cabling?
07:10
<dobber>
because it freezes in random places, but always after discover
07:10
alkisg it's not just one machine, it's every machine in the office
07:10
<alkisg>
Running netperf or something equally intensive reveals possible problems...
07:10
E.g. in a situation like yours, I discovered that this was a problem on the server cable. I replaced it and the crashes stopped.
07:11
(that server was working as 100mbps for years before I upgraded it to gigabit and the problems started)
07:12
<dobber>
it is possible, yes
07:13
also nbd starts everytime before the freeze
07:13
<alkisg>
Did you try removing nbd-proxy?
07:14
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/+bug/589034
07:14
<dobber>
i dont think i ever installed a nbd proxy
07:14
<alkisg>
It's preinstalled
07:15
It's been reported that it causes hangs for some people
07:15
(I don't use it myself for speed / ram reasons so I don't know details)
07:16
<dobber>
let me check that bug
07:16
server nic: eth0: RTL8168d/8111d
07:20
i dont see any link up/down notifications
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07:28
<dobber>
so far, 5 reboots without a problem
07:28
how do i subscribe to those bugs in launchpad ?
07:31
thanks alkisg this bug made me crazy
07:32
<alkisg>
Nice - you need to sign up on launchpad first
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07:33
<dobber>
i have
07:34
<alkisg>
Click on the subscribe button then on the right (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/+bug/589034/+subscribe)
07:34
Do post your experince on the bug report though. If nbd-proxy is causing such problems it should be fixed...
07:35
(ah ok just saw that you did)
07:35
Since you posted, you already subscribed.
07:36
<dobber>
i subscribed to the entire bugs list
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08:17
<brites>
Hi, I have an environment with LTSP5 and the stations are locked in when viewing a PDF file. How should I do to the PDF file does not use the RAM of the station?
08:18
<alkisg>
How much ram do they have?
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08:24
<brites>
128Mb
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08:26
<brites>
But also already tested on stations with 512MB and I had problems.
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08:28
<alkisg>
Then it wouldn't be a ram problem, if it hangs with 512m
08:30
Try disabling compiz, KMS, try using vesa to see if it's a graphics driver problem etc. bbl.
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08:31
<brites>
I monitored the RAM while the paged PDF file, as I page, it fills up.
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08:45
<mgariepy>
morning
08:47
<rad4Christ>
Morning! Still working on the fat client configs, to test. But a question I have is about the --fat-client variable. Does it simply use the desktop used by the server, or does it copy the installed apps/custom menus of the server?
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08:57
<brites>
Hi, I have an environment with LTSP5 and the stations are locked in when viewing a PDF file. How should I do to the PDF file does not use the RAM of the station?
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09:40
<brites>
How do I that the RAM ThinClient not be used to open PDF files?
09:42
<sep>
brites, tried a different pdf viewer ?
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10:22
<rad4Christ>
Anyone know how to install nVidia restricted drivers on member:a server, so thin clients with nvidia card will use them?
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10:23
<alkisg>
rad4Christ: "member:a" server? What do you mean there?
10:23
<rad4Christ>
Ignore that :/ IRC paste did that...
10:23
drivers on a server*
10:24
<alkisg>
Do all of your clients have the same nvidia cardsd?
10:25
<rad4Christ>
Not all, but as it stands, S will choose the ubuntu version, which is lacking
10:25
X*
10:25
(man I can't type today)
10:26
<alkisg>
Well... you'd need to create 2 chroots then, one for nvidia clients and one for the rest of them. And your server should also have nvidia.
10:26
Here are some steps to do that: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/AtomIon
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10:27
<alkisg>
Make a backup of /opt/ltsp/* in case you need to revert the changes.
10:30
<rad4Christ>
Thanks!
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11:18
<rad4Christ>
Here's an odd one, when I connect multiple clients, the display on the server goes haywaire
11:20
I have to c-a-d and reboot to restart X to fix it.
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12:23
<rad4Christ>
OK, I have to restart X on the server anytime I click shutdown from a particular type of desktop running as a client. Odd...
12:23
<alkisg>
rad4Christ: is that with the nvidia drivers installed on the chroot?
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12:24
<rad4Christ>
No sir, nothing has change yet.
12:24
I was trying to test the speed between running FF as a localapp, and running the machine as a FAT client.
12:25
The FAT client won't boot... and I'm not testing the ION machine yet as I have not created the specific image yet.
12:26
However, when running as local apps, the gdm session on the client looks great, and themed, but the localapps (Firefox in this case) is the bland grey bars. I assume this is due to something NOT in the chroot, so I'm going to add all the themes to see.
12:26
<alkisg>
How are you trying to boot the fat client? Did you create a seperate chroot? And why isn't it booting? Any error messages?
12:27
<rad4Christ>
Actually, I backed up the opt/ltsp directory, and did a clean one.
12:27
I'm booting it again now, but the last time it hung after I entered the password.
12:29
<alkisg>
Gadi: ping? (some xauth help...)
12:29
<Gadi>
huh? what? who? where?
12:29
<alkisg>
Heh :)
12:30
I'm trying to display a video on all clients simultaneously,
12:30
I have a teacher sitting on the server, and a root shell available on each client (through script),
12:31
so I'm thinking if adding the teacher's cookie or something to /var/run/ldm-xauth... on all clients, so that the teacher can just run DISPLAY=<clientip> program, and run some program there.
12:31
Is that possible?
12:31
<Gadi>
well, it is usually the other way around
12:31
<alkisg>
Or do I have to do the reverse, i.e. copy all the clients cookies to the teacher xauthority?
12:31
<Gadi>
so, the cookie is the Xserver's cookie
12:31
<alkisg>
ugh, do i have to? :D
12:32
<Gadi>
so, the teacher needs to have auth on all the displays
12:32
but, you don't need to do that with a cookie
12:32
you can do it with xauth
12:32
xauth can allow a *user* access
12:32
not just a mcachine
12:32
*machine
12:32
<alkisg>
Any method where I won't need to modify the teacher's xauthority would be welcome
12:33
<Gadi>
man xhost
12:33
<alkisg>
So how would I do that? There's no "teacher" account on the clients...
12:33
ok, trying, thank you...
12:34
<rad4Christ>
alkisg: Trying to boot now on a machine, but the fat image is huge. Any suggestions to try to bring it under control? Or what is a decent size for a fatclient image?
12:35
<alkisg>
rad4Christ: did you clean the package cache dir before compressing the image?
12:35
<rad4Christ>
No. (still somewhat a *nix newbie)
12:35
<alkisg>
An clean ubuntu chroot would be about 2 Gb, I suppose, but I've used 11 Gb images without any problems
12:35
<rad4Christ>
It's about 2.5 GB
12:35
<Gadi>
alkisg: hey - maybe you can help me with something
12:36
<alkisg>
rad4Christ: The size shouldn't matter anyway
12:36
Gadi: sure, shoot - I'll direct you to a man page too :P :D
12:36
<rad4Christ>
How quickly should it boot in comparison to thin?
12:36
<Gadi>
:)
12:36
<alkisg>
rad4Christ: fat clients booted in 13 seconds in my lab, thin clients in 12 seconds
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12:38
<rad4Christ>
OK. There MUST be another issue I'm not aware of, because sometimes the clients (whether fat or thin image used), just don't make it to the LDM login. SOmetimes, no problems.
12:39
And it sits at the login "verifying password"
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13:14
<rad4Christ>
alkisg: Here's where the FAT clients freeze. When logging in a user after the image is created, it stays on the LDM login window, with this message under the login box: "/usr/bin/x11/xauth: creating new authority file /home/<user>/.Xauthority"
13:14
<alkisg>
rad4Christ: are you using nfs?
13:15
(NFS_HOME, that is...)
13:15
<rad4Christ>
Shouldn't be. LTSP5 doesn't use/install it by default, correct?
13:16
<alkisg>
Nope
13:16
<rad4Christ>
And the lts.conf file does not include NFS_HOME
13:16
<alkisg>
So you enter username/password and then get that message?
13:17
<rad4Christ>
YEs sir.
13:17
<alkisg>
Does that happen with a newly created user too?
13:17
<rad4Christ>
I'll try
13:20
alkisg: Yes, newly created user does the same.
13:20
Wait, it DID work.
13:21
<alkisg>
See the attributes/owner of that problematic user's home and xauthority
13:22
<rad4Christ>
OK, I will. Thank you.
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15:44
<alvin>
I have 3 questions about LTSP 5. Can it use an external DHCP server? Can it run Kubuntu? Can I install it as a (KVM) virtual machine?
15:44
<NeonLichT>
Yes, yes, yes.
15:44
<alvin>
Ohm nice answer :-)
15:46
Hmm, and a fourth. If I have a normal workstation, can I use that as a fat client?
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15:47
<NeonLichT>
And yes.
15:47
<alvin>
Ok, I better start installing then.
15:47
<NeonLichT>
:)
15:48
I've done 1 and 4 myself. Want to do 3 (Xen) and would never ever do 2! XDDD
15:49
<alvin>
Oh? Kubuntu? Can't be that bad. It has bugs, but so has the rest of Ubuntu
15:49
<NeonLichT>
I agree, that's why I use Debian or BSD.
15:50
<alvin>
There's one reason that stops me from switching. KVM. Has the stable Debian a working kvm version?
15:50
<alkisg>
Does ltsp run on bsd?
15:51
<NeonLichT>
No, alkisg, they have their own diskless clients system
15:51
<alkisg>
Ah, cool. Does it support thin and fat clients?
15:52
<NeonLichT>
I whish LTSP would be ported to one of the BSD, though, since I think it's far better.
15:52
<alkisg>
Ah
15:52
<NeonLichT>
I think FreeBSD does.
15:52
BTSP would be cool :)
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15:53
<NeonLichT>
alvin, apt-cache search on a Lenny box gives me: kvm - Full virtualization on x86 hardware
15:54
<alvin>
NeonLichT: Remind me. Is Lenny the stable version?
15:54
<NeonLichT>
It is, alvin.
15:54
<alvin>
Good. That switch is coming closer. Even if kvm is a little behind on Debian.
15:57
<NeonLichT>
Perhaps it's in the backports.
15:58
lenny-backports (misc): dummy transitional package from kvm to qemu-kvm
15:58
1:0.12.4+dfsg-1~bpo50+1 [backports]: amd64 i386
15:58
How is that one? I'm not familliar with kvm.
15:58
<alvin>
1:84+dfsg-0ubuntu16+0.12.3+noroms+0ubuntu9 here
15:59
Old, I think. I remember a lot of crashes on older kvm
15:59
<NeonLichT>
lenny-backports (kernel): Source for the KVM driver
15:59
85+dfsg-4~bpo50+1 [backports]: all
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15:59
<alvin>
The trouble with Ubuntu isn't kvm (ok, there are bugs), but the boot process. I've read that Debian might start to use the same, so there's no sense to switch.
16:00
Oh! ok, now there is
16:01
Now what CD do I need for LTSP on Ubuntu 10.04? I just inserted the server version and the Kubuntu alternate version. Is it the desktop version?
16:01
manual sais alternate cd
16:01
(says)
16:01
<NeonLichT>
No idea about Ubuntu, alvin, sorry.
16:02
<alkisg>
The alternate cd is recommented
16:02
<alvin>
NeonLichT: No problem. I'll find it. I must have some other images around here.
16:07
<rad4Christ>
alvin: it's the alternative CD
16:07
Or just Install ltsp-server-standalone and it sets up most of it.
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16:08
<alvin>
That's what the manual said, but it didn't mention that the Kubuntu alternative cd couldn't be used.
16:08* alvin is downloading
16:08
<alvin>
I could do that too, but I want to try the cd first
16:09
<NeonLichT>
alvin is downloading himself?
16:10
<alvin>
ok, it's actually midnight here :-) tired
16:10
<alkisg>
alvin: the kubuntu alternate can't be used?! Doesn't it have an "F4 - install an ltsp server" option?
16:10
<NeonLichT>
Wed Jun 9 23:15:11 CEST 2010
16:10
<alvin>
No, it doesnt'
16:10
Hey, we're in the same timezone
16:11
<NeonLichT>
Spain here, alvin.
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16:11
<alvin>
Flanders (Belgium)
16:15
While zsync is doing its work, I'm reading a bit about those fat clients. If I understand correctly, these also netboot, but use local resources. Is it possible to just connect to the LTSP server from your workstation, using X (Like you would with XDMCP, VNC, or RDP). Or am I totally wrong about what the possibilities of an LTSP server are?
16:16
<NeonLichT>
The LTSP server is a regular server too. Therefore, of course you can connect from a workstation through X.
16:16
<alkisg>
alvin: connecting with XDMCP would make you use server resources, which is the opposite of fat clients
16:17
<alvin>
but it's not an XDMCP server anymore, therefore you cant use KDM's 'connect to server'
16:17
<alkisg>
You can do both. But they're totally unrelated.
16:17
<alvin>
alkisg: Yes, but say: you have a desktop, but want to work on the LTSP server as well, from the same computer
16:17
<alkisg>
neatx-server would be easier than xdmcp and more secure
16:18
It would require some more cpu for encryption though (the same as LDM_DIRECTX=false)
16:18
But it would also work with wan
16:18
<alvin>
Well, thanks for the tip. I didn't know it. Can encryption be disabled?
16:19
<alkisg>
For ltsp, yes (LDM_DIRECTX=True). For neatx-server, I don't think so.
16:21
<alvin>
Actually, I'm looking for a solution to a problem and I thought LTSP would be that solution. Let me explain: At work, we are used to the CDE environment on Solaris 8 XDMCP servers on the LAN. That works very well, but it's getting a bit dated. (understatement here) So, I'm looking into a replacement.
16:21
A requirement is that it has to be stable.
16:21
<NeonLichT>
alvin, XFCE is close to CDE, although more modern looking.
16:22
<alvin>
Looks don't matter. I installed Kubuntu on a few workstations and (when the system wants to boot) the users do not complain.
16:23
We are currently trying XDMCP, but it feels very slow to connect.
16:23
<alkisg>
alvin: what are your client specs?
16:23
(Ram, mostly)
16:23
<alvin>
Core2 Duo, 2GB memory and an nVidia card for dualhead
16:23
<alkisg>
Do they all have nvidias?
16:23
<alvin>
Yes
16:24
<alkisg>
Go for a fat client chroot then
16:24
<NeonLichT>
Man, I wish my servers would be like your clients XDDD
16:24
<alkisg>
Don't use the alternate cd, it won't make you a fat chroot
16:24
<alvin>
Our servers have 48 MB ram and SAN connected 15.000 rpm SAS drives
16:24
<alkisg>
(you can use it for installation, it just doesn't help for creating the fat chroot)
16:24
<alvin>
alkisg: Ah, thanks
16:24
<alkisg>
alvin: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients
16:25
<alvin>
I know what to try tomorrow :-)
16:25
<alkisg>
With such powerful clients there's no point in trying remote solutions like XDMCP or any kind of remote X...
16:26
<alvin>
Well, the primary reason is to have the same settings for some software
16:26
<alkisg>
With a fat chroot you manage all the settings in that chroot
16:26
<alvin>
That does sound better than what we're trying now
16:26
<alkisg>
It's like managing 2 installations (one the server and one the chroot), while thin clients is like managing 1 installation (just the server).
16:26
A little more overhead, but it's well worth it for powerful clients.
16:27
<NeonLichT>
I you wanted to have both fat and thin clients would you need to have two different chroots, alkisg? One for each type of clients?
16:27
<alvin>
The dualscreen is important too. I don't know if it matters much
16:28
<alkisg>
NeonLichT: No you can boot thin clients from a fat chroot with no problems
16:28
In the latest ltsp code (not in any distro yet) you can even specify that "all clients below e.g. 300MB ram boot as thin, all greater than 300mb as fat"
16:28
<NeonLichT>
alkisg, you set up the client type on lts.conf, then?
16:29
<alkisg>
Yup, that too. LTSP_FATCLIENT=true/false
16:29
<NeonLichT>
Oh, that will be really cool (the RAM threshold variable)
16:29
<alkisg>
FAT_RAM_THRESHOLD, default value = 300MB
16:30
<alvin>
Yes, I'm getting ideas about switching the whole company if this is successfull
16:30
<NeonLichT>
Nice, very nice.
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