IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 16 May 2016   (all times are UTC)

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07:15
<Ghostdog>
Hi, am thinking of using LTSP to setup a server/thin client service at the community centre. We have old desktops and was thinking of buying a powerful desktop (i5, 16gbytes memory) to use as the server.. Will i need to install Ubuntu server software first before loading LTSP server software?
07:15
<alkisg>
Hi Ghostdog
07:15
<Ghostdog>
hello
07:15
<alkisg>
Tell us details about the clients
07:16
How many, how much ram, what cpu
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07:17
<Ghostdog>
around 15 destops, currently running xp software. RAM around 1 to 2 Gbytes, CPU Penitum 4
07:18
<alkisg>
Hmm pentium 4's are in the middle of the cpu/ram required for running them as thin or as fat clients, which makes a lot of difference, so I'd better ask more details,
07:18
pentium 4's with 2 gb ram are very very rare, are you sure about those specs?
07:19
And, do you know their exact CPU, in MHz?
07:19
Because e.g. a pentium 4 at 3 GHz with 1.5 gb ram would be a fine fat client
07:20
While a pentium 4 at 1.7 GHz with 512 RAM would be better as a thin client
07:20
(both thin and fat clients in ltsp are diskeless, netbooted)
07:20
<Ghostdog>
yes, but they are old desktops which I want to use as thin clients. Basically rebuilt as Ubuntu thin client desktops
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07:21
<Ghostdog>
but i think they are 500mbyes to 1 gbytes of RAM on ther desktops
07:23
<alkisg>
Ghostdog: anyway, try this:
07:23
!ltsp-pnp
07:23
<ltsp>
ltsp-pnp: ltsp-pnp is an alternative (upstream) method to maintain LTSP installations for thin and fat clients that doesn't involve chroots: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
07:23
<alkisg>
And you may play with the LTSP_FATCLIENT=True/False directive if you need it
07:23
!ubuntu-mate
07:23
<ltsp>
ubuntu-mate: Ubuntu-mate works very well with LTSP, even with older clients. Download the 64-bit version if *all* your clients have >= 2GB RAM, otherwise download the 32-bit version. http://ubuntu-mate.org/download/
07:23
<alkisg>
Start with the mate-i386-desktop iso
07:24
<Ghostdog>
yes, i will start with the i386 desktop first
07:25
Will I need to load a ubuntu OS first before installing i386-desktop?
07:25
<alkisg>
No
07:25
That is the os you need, the ubuntu-mate-i386-desktop.iso
07:25
<Ghostdog>
ok, thanks
07:26
and the server software? I will be buying a powerful sdesktop, i5, 16Gbytes of RAM, 64 bit.
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07:38
<alkisg>
Ghostdog: you install the server with that iso
07:38
You don't need another installation, you only do one installation and it's enough for both the server and all the clients
07:39
Note that if your clients are pentium 4 at 3 GHz, you should be a very cheap server, and some ram for your clients so that they work as fat clients instead
07:40
So, if you have a test server now (any recent pc will do, even if it's 5 years old), try it before buying
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07:44
<Ghostdog>
ok will do. Thanks for the advise. If I have any problems will I will come to this chat for advise.
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12:24
<clueo8>
Hey, anybody out there?
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15:35
<tsylvermane>
Server = Ubuntu 14.04 LTS - having tons of trouble with lockups and freezing in my clients typically with email apps, evolution and thunderbird. Everything is on a gigabit network. Looking for advice.
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15:42
<alkisg>
tsylvermane: thin or fat clients? how much client ram?
15:43
<tsylvermane>
thin clients. just testing right now, my laptop as a client has 8 gigs of ram
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15:43
<||cw>
how much server ram? disk IO contention maybe?
15:44
<tsylvermane>
have the ltsp images and files on the ssd, 8 gigs of ram on server.
15:44
<alkisg>
Complete freezing in like you have to reboot after that, or just 1-2 sec freezing and then it comes back?
15:44
<tsylvermane>
total freeze. mouse still moves about but can't do anything until hard reboot of client.
15:44
<alkisg>
Is your laptop nvidia-based?
15:45
<tsylvermane>
no, just a simple intel i7 with integrated
15:45
<alkisg>
It doesn't have that optimus stuff, dual integrated / nvidia, right?
15:45
<tsylvermane>
no
15:46
<alkisg>
With those specs, it sounds like driver related, can you try with 16.04 to see if that kernel is more stable for you?
15:46
!ltsp-pnp
15:46
<ltsp>
ltsp-pnp: ltsp-pnp is an alternative (upstream) method to maintain LTSP installations for thin and fat clients that doesn't involve chroots: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
15:46
<alkisg>
And this will allow you to see how it works as a diskless *fat* client instead
15:46
Which is much faster
15:47
Clients with >= 1 GB RAM in most cases should be ran as fat clients, not thin (both are netbooted)
15:47
<tsylvermane>
i understand but my goal is to run with smaller thin clients. the laptop is only for testing right now before i deploy fully around my house
15:48
i can try 16.04 in a vm on the server i guess
15:50
<alkisg>
If you have other clients that you can boot with 14.04, you can test with them
15:50
In general, kernels sometimes have issues with newer hardware, and then newer kernels solve those issues
15:50
<tsylvermane>
ill try it
15:51
the host has to stay 14.04 for now but i'll spin up a 16.04 vm and run from that.
15:53
<alkisg>
"my goal is to run with smaller thin clients." ==> I meant, if you already have one of them, test with that one instead of testing with the laptop
15:53
<tsylvermane>
right i got it
15:53
i was thinking those low power diskless things
15:54
or custom built for hdmi output, not sure yet. either way diskless and as low power as possible
15:57
<alkisg>
!flash
15:57
<ltsp>
flash: Yes, flash sucks. An HD full screen 30 fps video needs 2.5 Gbps bandwidth (1920×1080×4×30)! Make sure you have LDM_DIRECTX=True in your lts.conf file, or if it's just youtube you're after, try some flash replacing plugin like http://linterna-magica.nongnu.org
15:57
<alkisg>
Flash is just an example, even window scrolling needs a *lot* of bandwidth
15:58
If you're buying new hardware, it's best to aim for clients that can run the OS locally
15:58
(local cpu, not local disk...)
15:59
<tsylvermane>
it isn't practical to run it all on the server anymore?
16:01
<alkisg>
It depends on if you want stuff like web browsing etc or not
16:02
If you're just looking for word processing, the graphics lan bandwidth is low, and it's very usable
16:03
If you're looking for web browsing, presentations (impress) etc, making the screen go over lan isn't very good, it's best to make the disk data go over the disk instead
16:03
*over the net, sorry
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16:11
<tsylvermane>
oh..
16:12
i guess i was expecting more than its capable of
16:13
was looking for simple management with highly cost effective expansion for general day to day usage. no gaming i knew but if it chokes on other day to day things then im in the wrong boat : /
16:13
<alkisg>
The only thing that changes is your client specs
16:13
<tsylvermane>
ill give 16.04 a try before i give it up completely i guess.
16:13
<alkisg>
I.e. you buy a diskless client with 100 euros instead of one with 80 euros
16:14
The rest is the same, you only maintain one pc
16:14
LTSP is about maintaining any number of diskless clients with one installation only
16:14
<tsylvermane>
should i try doing the ltsp-pnp then instead of just standard? at the moment im only installing from the ltsp-server-standalone package in the Ubuntu repos. they don't have anything for ltsp-pnp
16:15
<alkisg>
If you'll be sending the screen data over the network, or the disk data, is a small difference in architecture
16:15
ltsp-pnp supports both thin and fat clients out of the box
16:15
<||cw>
P4 small form factor with 1GB+ ram are still < $50 and make quite good fat clients
16:15
<alkisg>
And it's easier to set up
16:15
<tsylvermane>
do they boot off the network the same way?
16:15
<alkisg>
Yup
16:15
<tsylvermane>
it just sends the image over the netwrok to the disk, then runs from the disk basically?
16:16
<alkisg>
It doesn't send the whole disk, only the "sectors" that the client needs
16:16
It's like booting from a usb disk, it doesn't get loaded in ram, only sectors get read
16:16
<||cw>
yeah, still no HDD. only difference is they run everything local. same concept as thin clients with localapps, except everything is local by default
16:19
<tsylvermane>
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients is what im reading now, think this is what you are talking about.
16:19
<alkisg>
tsylvermane: that's an older page i wrote
16:20
ltsp-pnp is the newer page
16:20
But yeah the theory is in the fatclients page, ok
16:20
<tsylvermane>
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
16:21
for 14.04 do i need the ppa or can i do this from the stock repos?
16:21
<alkisg>
It's best to use our ppa, yes
16:21
It contains fixes for all the bugs that we have solved
16:21
<tsylvermane>
and theres your name in the installation section.
16:21
ok
16:21
<alkisg>
(I'm an ltsp developer btw)
16:21
<tsylvermane>
i see that. appreciate the help
16:21
<alkisg>
So we don't have to bother with new users complaining about bugs that are already fixed...
16:22
<tsylvermane>
right
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16:24
<tsylvermane>
no chroot this way, everything is installed directly on the server?
16:25
<alkisg>
Yup
16:25
You can use a chroot if you prefer, but it's usually better to manage the apps graphically, in a real desktop...
16:26
<tsylvermane>
dont want to use one. truth be told i don't entirely understand what to do wiht a chroot beyond what the ltsp instructions were telling me
16:26
however it will be done over ssh as the server is also my htpc direct booting to kodi
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16:41
<alkisg>
tsylvermane: you can use a vm if you prefer
16:41
does your server also have a desktop environment installed?
16:41
<tsylvermane>
gonna do it in a kvm vm
16:41
it direct boots to Kodi
16:41
so not a workable de no
16:43
i'll run the virtual machine on the ssd. is a gui really a requirement?
16:44
<alkisg>
You don't need a gui on the clients?
16:44
<tsylvermane>
i do need a gui on the clients but i dont need an accessible one on the server do i?
16:44
<alkisg>
Then use your existing chroot
16:44
<tsylvermane>
ok
16:44
<alkisg>
Run:
16:44
sudo ltsp-chroot
16:45
apt-get install gnome-flashback
16:45
...or whatever else you want,
16:45
ubuntu-desktop, whatever
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16:45
<alkisg>
then exit, ltsp-update-image, done
16:45
No need for ltsp-pnp if you don't want a gui on the server
16:46
<tsylvermane>
if i use my existing chroot though then im back to where i started with freezing and locking up apps?
16:47
ok perhaps the better question.
16:47
how do i setup a fat client with the chroot method?
16:47
nevermind i see it now
16:48
<alkisg>
For the first question, it depends; you'd have to try to see if it solves it or not
16:48
For the second question, you don't need a different method, just install ubuntu-desktop in the chroot
16:51
<tsylvermane>
this may be a dumb question.
16:51
<gehidore>
only if you never ask it
16:51
<tsylvermane>
my lts.conf previously just had my cups server as well as a few fstab lines for nfs shares. was i already running a fat client?
16:53
<alkisg>
Fat clients need a desktop environment in a chroot
16:53
ls /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/share/xsessions
16:53
<tsylvermane>
thats what i had
16:53
<alkisg>
If you have .desktop files there, it's fat
16:53
<tsylvermane>
ok so i was running a fat client and still getting the lockups i guess
16:54
<alkisg>
NFS shares can also cause lockups
16:54
What are you using them for? Why not the default sshfs?
16:55
<tsylvermane>
i wasnt sure of any other way to mount my desired home folder from the server into the clients
16:56
<alkisg>
It should be already mounted even without the fstab lines
16:56
So, try removing those and see if it helps
16:56
<tsylvermane>
yes but it uses the servers /home which im trying to avoid
16:57
how can i direct it to somewhere else?
16:57
<alkisg>
Set the user home to somewhere else
16:58
Or if you want an *additional* mount, use LOCALAPPS_EXTRA_MOUNTS
16:58
<tsylvermane>
all in the lts.conf?
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17:00
<alkisg>
Yup
17:04
<tsylvermane>
ok
17:09
my client is rebuilding itself. im assuming that using LOCAL_APPS_EXTRAMOUNTS=/spinner/ltsphome will simply put that location in my / of the client image?
17:09
<||cw>
for nfs, are you using async? that fixes most performance issues, but if the server has an unclean shutdown for any reason you can lose data
17:10
also, lts.conf changes alone don't need an image rebuilt
17:11
<tsylvermane>
i get that. im rebuilding because i had removed ltsp the other day and was looking for answers before trying again
17:11
lts.conf is outside of the chroot
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18:24
<tsylvermane>
if i may, what is the proper syntax for LOCAL_APPS_EXTRAMOUNTS?
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20:22
<alkisg>
!lts.conf | echo tsylvermane:
20:22
<ltsp>
tsylvermane: lts.conf: (#1) http://manpages.ubuntu.com/lts.conf, or (#2) lts.conf manpage is available in the ltsp-docs package
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