IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 20 May 2015   (all times are UTC)

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02:40
<work_alkisg>
!ltsp-pnp
02:40
<ltsp`>
ltsp-pnp: ltsp-pnp is an alternative (upstream) method to maintain LTSP installations for thin and fat clients that doesn't involve chroots: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
02:41
<work_alkisg>
dilophosaur: follow that ^ guide, it's the "official" one
02:41
What do you mean 'desktop manager is nowhere to be found'? Do you mean the panel?
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03:18
<gdi2k>
is ltsp-pnp the preferred (or better supported) way to deploy LTSP these days?
03:40work_alkisg is now known as alkisg
03:40
<alkisg>
gdi2k: it depends on your needs, but I think more people are using it rather than the classic setup
03:40
If you want to deploy both fat and thin clients, then it's probably the best way to go
03:41
If you e.g. only want a chroot for xfreerdp, there's no need for ltsp-pnp
03:49
<gdi2k>
alkisg, thanks, interesting to hear. Maybe we'll go that route when we upgrade to the next LTS relate in 2016...
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12:16
<professor>
hi
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13:48
<work_alkisg>
Hello
13:48work_alkisg is now known as alkisg
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15:01
<geekgirl>
When using LTSP with FAT clients. (edubuntu 14.04) the time indicator on the bar is not there on the clients. indicator-datetime is installed and I can see the option to put the time on the toolbar but it doesnt actually work. I have users complaining that the time is not displayed. Luckily that seems to be the only complaint they have so I must be doing something right if thats all they can dig up. ;)
15:05
<vagrantc>
anything in the user's ~/.xsession-errors showing why it might not be starting?
15:11
<geekgirl>
nothing about time indicator in there at all... Funny i tried to install in chroot and it said it was already installed. Maybe I need to purge it and redo because when I try to run that command from terminal on the client I get "not found"
15:13
<vagrantc>
is it in the chroot but not in the NBD image?
15:16
<geekgirl>
usually everything I install in chroot shows up on the image after the image update. so im confused. Am i missing something?
15:17
<alkisg>
geekgirl: what desktop environment are you using, unity or gnome-flashback?
15:18* alkisg was debugging a serious issue with unity on 14.04 + fat clients...
15:18
<geekgirl>
unity
15:19
<alkisg>
And you're getting the bar on top? I think you're not supposed to get it at all...
15:20
14.04 uses upstart to initialize the xsession
15:20
<geekgirl>
It works quite well so far other than the time issue. I have it running in 2 libraries so far. putting it in 8 more. Yes I have a thin gray bar at the top.
15:21
<alkisg>
You do have the left sidebar? http://toastytech.com/guis/ubuntu114defaultunity.jpg
15:22
And do you have this file? /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/X11/Xsession.d/00upstart
15:22
<geekgirl>
Yes i have the left side bar. The bar at the top is there but it doesnt have anything on it. no time...no menu... I dont care about the menu (that would just confuse patrons) I was just looking for simple time fix.
15:23
yes i have that file
15:23
it shows : # Make ubuntu-upstart an alias for ubuntu if grep -q "^$DESKTOP_SESSION\$" /etc/upstart-xsessions; then export XDG_CONFIG_DIRS="/usr/share/upstart/xdg:/etc/xdg" BASESESSION=${1% *} BASESESSION=${BASESESSION##*/} if [ "$BASESESSION" = x-session-manager ]; then BASESESSION=$(basename $(readlink /etc/alternatives/x-session-manager)) fi UPSTART=1 fi
15:24
<alkisg>
INIT_COMMAND_01="printf 'set "gnome-session --session=ubuntu\nDESKTOP_SESSION=ubuntu\nXDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP=Unity\nPATH=/sbin:\$PATH\n' > /etc/X11/Xsession.d/00before-upstart"
15:24
Put this ^ in lts.conf
15:24
And reboot the client
15:24
Sorry
15:24
<geekgirl>
lol ok standby
15:25
<alkisg>
Hmm I missed a quote, but it has too much quoting
15:25
Let me find another one...
15:25
<geekgirl>
ok
15:25
<alkisg>
INIT_COMMAND_01="printf 'export DESKTOP_SESSION=ubuntu\nexport SESSIONTYPE=gnome-session\nexport XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP=Unity\nPATH=/sbin:\$PATH\n' > /etc/X11/Xsession.d/00before-upstart"
15:26
OK, try that ^ one
15:27* alkisg finds it very weird that geekgirl didn't need a menu :D
15:28
<alkisg>
Unfortunately they don't want to fix that problem in Ubuntu so we'll have to work around it from LTSP
15:29
<geekgirl>
this is for regular users that walk into the library to check their facebook/ect... :) I put icons they need on desktop! They are used to windows. I figure the less options they have, the better! :)
15:30
<alkisg>
:)
15:30
<geekgirl>
Hey that fixed it! Thank you so much!
15:31
<alkisg>
geekgirl: you're lucky, it's been broken for months and I only looked into finding a workaround this morning ;)
15:37
<geekgirl>
awesome timing then!! @alkisg I poked at it for a bit, googled several options that didnt work before i caved and visited here. :)
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16:41
<alkisg>
vagrantc: we'll need that ^ part twice, once for ltsp-client (fat clients) and once for ltsp-server
16:41
It replaces stgraber's /etc/X11/Xsession.d/40-ltsp-client /etc/X11/Xsession.d/40-ltsp-server
16:41
I'll put them upstream, not in the packaging, ok?
16:42
In client/Ubuntu/etc/X11/Xsession.d/00ltsp-client and respectively in ltsp-server
16:43
stgraber: in 40-ltsp-client and 40-ltsp-server, you've checked for: if ([ "$1" = "default" ] || [ -z "$1" ]) && [ "$(readlink /etc/alternatives/x-session-manager)" = "/usr/bin/gnome-session" ]; then
16:44
xnox doesn't want to do that in 00upstart, so just for one '-z "$1"' condition, it breaks plain Xsession logins
16:44
<vagrantc>
alkisg: wow. that looks messy.
16:45
alkisg: is that triggered by spaces in session names or something?
16:45
<alkisg>
vagrantc: yes, unfortunately Ubuntu thinks that breaking Xsession is trendy, they say that they don't want to support passing an empty session (man Xsession allows it) even if it only costs them a -z check
16:45
vagrantc: no, the spacing part is another bug, we'll fix that too in the same commit though
16:46
<vagrantc>
ugh.
16:46
<alkisg>
Normally the session is determined at 50x11-common_determine-startup
16:46
Ubuntu wants to determine it at 00upstart
16:46
So we have to put a script before that
16:46
<vagrantc>
and this is only for 14.04 and earlier, yes?
16:47
<alkisg>
Only for 14.04... in 12.04 it was working, and 16.04 will have systemd :)
16:47
I haven't looked into the non-LTS versions
16:47
We can set $DESKTOP_SESSION, it doesn't cost us anything, LDM also sets that
16:47
But they say that we're not supposed to allow an empty (default) session
16:47
I don't want to drop support for that when it's only a "-z" away
16:48
The difference is: Xsession "gnome-session --session=ubuntu"
16:48
vs plain: Xsession
16:48
What they say is that the default should be the first ^
16:49
While Xsession forever supported the second as well... as the default
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16:49
<vagrantc>
the problem is that rather than implement gnome-session-ubuntu and setting up alternatives for x-session-manager, they do this wacky "gnome-session --session=ubuntu" thing.
16:50
and then it's impossible to set up a working alternative
16:50
<alkisg>
Yes
16:50
They say they don't care about alternatives etc
16:50
<vagrantc>
and gnome-session-ubuntu could simply be: exec gnome-session --session=ubuntu
16:50
<alkisg>
That the system should select the "first entry from the DM sessions combo box, alphabetically"
16:50
Right
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16:51
<alkisg>
I don't see why the *have* to break Xsession and alternatives when it's so easy to support them
16:51
<vagrantc>
nor do i.
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16:51
<alkisg>
*they
16:51
Anyway, if stgraber can pull his weight there and convince xnox, that part can be solved in upstart packaging
16:51
Otherwise we'll have to work around it from ltsp
16:52
(the alternatives part; while for the $DESKTOP_SESSION part, we'll do that anyway, it's supposed to be part of the DM nowadays)
16:52
<vagrantc>
alkisg: so sure, go ahead and commit that madness upstream :)
16:53
<alkisg>
Will do so in Friday :)
16:53* vagrantc wonders what the major diff still is
16:53
<alkisg>
Dunno, I've stopped using the Ubuntu packaging 3 years ago and I haven't had any issues
16:54
(the greek schools ppa uses you own packaging)
16:54
Ah, it would be nice though if I had access to the debian ltsp packaging tree
16:54
Because I have to go through hoops to build a recipe now
16:55
E.g.: https://code.launchpad.net/~alkisg/ltsp/ldm-debian-packaging
16:55
<vagrantc>
i wonder if i should try using some of the new bzr branching in a single repository support ...
16:55
<alkisg>
Without r973 and r974 there, I can't do the daily builds
16:56
<vagrantc>
alkisg: because you pull from -trunk and those patches are already present?
16:56
<alkisg>
Yes
16:56
I think having working daily builds is a nice way for people to test stuff
16:57
(or even if not daily, at request)
16:57
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i just need to give you access to pkg-ltsp on alioth, i think, then ...
16:57
<alkisg>
That'd be cool
16:58
<vagrantc>
alkisg: alkisg-guest?
16:58
<alkisg>
Yup
16:58
I don't know if you'd prefer to have the debian/ tree upstream in ltsp, and clone it when each stable release is released...
16:59
E.g. when I wanted to change the defaults to 192.168.67.x, I was able to change it for fedora, altlinux etc as well, if the packaging was upstream I'd do it there too
16:59
<vagrantc>
alkisg: you're already listed as a member
16:59
<alkisg>
Whooops
16:59
<vagrantc>
i tend not to make updates to other distros
16:59* alkisg needs to learn how to commit then
17:00* vagrantc isn't sure how branching works in bzr
17:00
<vagrantc>
other than forking
17:00
<alkisg>
When a series is released, how do you handle the packaging? Are you pushing it to some special repository?
17:01
<vagrantc>
even if upstream doesn't have the debian dir, i really prefer to have the upstream tree alongside the packaging
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17:01
<vagrantc>
alkisg: forked branches
17:01
i think bzr eventually got support for branches within one repository, but by then i had rimarily switched to using git
17:02
the other radical idea is to switch to git for the debian packaging and just use git-remote-bzr to sync between them
17:02
<alkisg>
vagrantc, for example, what is the URL for the packaging (or complete source) branch of wheezy ltsp?
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17:02
<alkisg>
I wouldn't mind keeping the code in github if you prefer to
17:03
<vagrantc>
i was actually able to re-merge the packaging branch in git without terrible conflicts, but i never could figure out how to squash them together again with bzr
17:04
<alkisg>
https://launchpad.net/lightdm ==> see the "series and milestones" there
17:04
There's the main "trunk" tree, and branched trees for each maintained release
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17:04
<vagrantc>
alkisg: in theory, it'd be in: https://alioth.debian.org/scm/loggerhead/pkg-ltsp/
17:04
<alkisg>
So you have the code multiple times, and only backport whatever's needed, security fixes etc
17:04
https://alioth.debian.org/scm/loggerhead/pkg-ltsp/ltsp-debian-packaging/files
17:05
<vagrantc>
in theory that's what i do as well
17:05
but typically, i make so few modifications that it never matters
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17:05
<alkisg>
Ah so you have the whole tree there: https://alioth.debian.org/scm/loggerhead/pkg-ltsp/releases/ltsp-5.0.8debian3/files
17:06
OK, then why not keep the debian/ tree upstream? So that other ltsp committers cannot mess with it?
17:06
<vagrantc>
those are quite old, from when bzr didn't support tagging
17:07
<alkisg>
Wait wait, so, debian doesn't have a fixed policy for maintainers to keep one branch for each release, right?
17:07
<vagrantc>
basically, 95% of modifications are targeted at unstable, so there are rarely other branches
17:07
alkisg: there's no policy for how to handle VCS
17:07
<alkisg>
Gotcha
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17:07
<vagrantc>
it's not even required to use a VCS at all ... though that is generally frowned upon
17:07
<alkisg>
So they only save the uploaded sources, in case the maintainer disappears...
17:08
<vagrantc>
basically, the source tarballs are the VCS ...
17:09
everything else is up to the maintainer's desired workflow
17:09* alkisg would keep the distro subdirs inside the upstream source code then, as long as the maintainer is also an upstream developer
17:10
<alkisg>
Like we have in epoptes
17:11
<vagrantc>
there are several historical reasons why the debian dir isn't in upstream
17:11
<alkisg>
np, just saying
17:11
<vagrantc>
* the fedora folks complained about all that pointless debian stuff
17:11
<alkisg>
Haha
17:11
And yet they have their .specs upstream? :)
17:12
<vagrantc>
* ubuntu and debian were generating lots of conflicts and doing things very differently
17:12
* it actually used to be problematic to have the debian dir upstream
17:12
<alkisg>
We solved that part though, both with different upstream distro dirs (Ubuntu/share/*...), and with X-Ubuntu-* in debian/control
17:12
<vagrantc>
and VENDOR in debian/rules
17:13
i suspect there are a lot of other annoying changes
17:15
<alkisg>
LTSP is distro-specific by design, all we do is override other package's config files etc :)
17:15
I wouldn't worry about having packaging trees upstream, when we already have much distro-specific code...
17:16
<vagrantc>
it's a non-issue now, but it used to be more problematic
17:17
oh yeah, and because we used to each have our own debian dir in-tree ... resolving the conflicts while preserving history is ... very challenging.
17:17
i've periodically tried to re-merge them and failed
17:17
as ltsp-trunk and ltsp-debian-packaging have a common parent in which they each deleted each other's files.
17:18
or at least, that's where they diverged
17:19
<alkisg>
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9849466/how-to-combine-repositories-into-a-single-one-in-bazaar
17:20
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1425892/how-do-you-merge-two-git-repositories
17:21
<vagrantc>
i think it's different because they share a common parent
17:22
<alkisg>
Ah. Ouch :-/
17:22
<dilophosaur>
Can anyone think of a reason I would be able to pxe boot virtual clients but not physical clients?? When I try to boot with a physical client, server side syslog throws up "failed sending /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/pxelinux.0 to client ip.
17:24
<alkisg>
Which tftp server?
17:24
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i also would prefer to have a separate non-upstream branch in which i merge new upstream versions independent of the debian dir
17:24
<dilophosaur>
dnsmasq
17:26
<alkisg>
dilophosaur: I've seen it fail with some bad PXE roms, while tftpd-hpa succeeded there
17:27
It was very rare, but you might want to try it
17:27
Does it work with ipxe on the real client?
17:27
!ipxe
17:27
<ltsp`>
ipxe: iPXE is the successor to the etherboot/gPXE project, and can be used to netboot clients that don't have a NIC ROM with a PXE stack. To add it to grub, see !grub-ipxe. To add it to the Windows boot loader, see !win32-loader. To download floppy, CD or USB images, visit http://ipxe.org or install the ipxe package.
17:27
<dilophosaur>
Interesting. I'll check that out.
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17:28* vagrantc wonders if using git-remote-bzr to do the git merge and then pushing to bzr would work
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