IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 9 December 2009   (all times are UTC)

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01:54
<pts_>
The link for the upstreeam documentations gives me error 404
01:55
<alkisg>
!docs
01:55
<ltspbot>
alkisg: "docs" :: For the most current documentation, see https://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/ltsp/index.php?title=Ltsp_LtspDocumentationUpstream
01:55
<Ryan52>
/topic lies.
01:55
where's jammcq when you need him?
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01:56
<Ryan52>
sbalneav: ^----
01:56
<pts_>
The link on the Ubuntu LTSP page should also be updated, but I guess thats out of your juristriction :)
01:57
<alkisg>
pts_: you can change that yourself :)
01:57
(please do)
01:58
<pts_>
alkisg: ofc, not used to this new fashion Internet yet
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07:20
<coordinador>
Hi, i have a problem with sound, sometimes sound mutes itself
07:21
i have to open alsamixer and back to normal the volume
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08:08
<dmarkey_>
where is Gideon Romm again?
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08:40
<johnny>
[09:12] dmarkey_: where is Gideon Romm again?
08:40
beep beep Gadi
08:42
<Gadi>
no honking! can't you read the sign
08:43
<dmarkey_>
Gadi: hey again
08:43
<Gadi>
g'morining
08:44
or something
08:44* Gadi shouldnt type with his mouth full
08:44
<dmarkey_>
have we any projects splicing LTSP with a desktop virtualisation system
08:45
<Gadi>
lots of adjectives and verbs in that sentence
08:45
how do you mean?
08:46* Gadi has run LTSP with VMWare View, Citrix XenApp, Quest vWorkspace, Ericom, etc.
08:46
<Gadi>
if thats what you mean
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08:46
<dmarkey_>
as in, an LTSP client corresponds with a virtual machine on a hypervisor somewhere, 1-1 relationship rather than many clients to one instance
08:46
<Gadi>
sure
08:46
but its mostly the backend that takes care of that
08:46
<dmarkey_>
so a broker?
08:47
<Gadi>
you still connect to the virtual machine with RDP/ICA
08:47
right
08:47
you need a broker
08:47
thats what most of the above products I mention are
08:48
you just need to install the clients in the chroot and make an appropriate screen script
08:48
<sbalneav>
Ryan52: Yes?
08:48
<dmarkey_>
yea, but it wouldnt be hard to implement an open source solution from scratch
08:49
using either VirtualBox or Xen
08:49
<sbalneav>
Morning all
08:49
<Gadi>
why do you need an open source solution for Xen?
08:49
<dmarkey_>
is there already one?
08:49
<Gadi>
ah, you mean you want to make a free broker
08:49
:)
08:50
<dmarkey_>
yea
08:50
<Gadi>
thats a different story
08:50
yeah, a free broker would be a nice project
08:51
<dmarkey_>
but im thinking pure RDP with windows
08:51
dunno how i'd do it with other OS's
08:51
<Gadi>
well, windows has a session broker built in now
08:51
we just dont have an OSS client that works with it yet
08:51
<dmarkey_>
but rdesktop doesnt support it
08:51
<Gadi>
thats a failing of rdesktop
08:51
a new project just started this year: FreeRDP
08:51
its a fork of rdesktop
08:52
<dmarkey_>
but will the broker manage lets say 100 XP VM's sitting on Xen?
08:52
<Gadi>
bec many devs are unhappy with rdesktop upstream
08:53
not the Microsoft broker
08:53
you need XenApp
08:53
<dmarkey_>
Right
08:53
<Gadi>
or Ericom
08:53
or some such
08:53
<dmarkey_>
but, its not that hard..
08:53
<Gadi>
right - ltsp-cluster is kinda getting there
08:54
for what you want to do
08:54
but, I dont think they are thinking along those lines
08:54
it would prolly be best to nudge them in that direction
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08:55
<Gadi>
we could have LDM contact a broker rather than a server
08:55
and then be redirected to the server
08:55
that would be nice
08:55
<ogra>
LDM stock exchange ?
08:55
<Gadi>
hmm...
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08:55
<dmarkey_>
but i am talking more windows
08:55
<Gadi>
maybe our little LDM can grow up a bit
08:55
who cares what you connect to
08:56
we just need to do it with the right protocol
08:56
<dmarkey_>
does ldm interface with rdestop?
08:56* ogra would love to see someone implement ldm-standalone
08:56
<Gadi>
actually, these days it can with the "nomad" patch
08:57
ogra: it would be real easy, just cp screen.d/ldm ldm-launcher and modify it
08:57
:)
08:57
ldm-launcher can use xephyr instead of X
08:57
<ogra>
Gadi, no, the hard part is the policy compliance for display managers in debian7ubuntu
08:57
you have to jump to 100s of hoops for that
08:58
*through
08:58* Gadi does not understand
08:58* Gadi will code it up and throw it in multiverse
08:58
<Gadi>
:)
08:59
<ogra>
you need to comply with certain standards to be allowed to provide it as display manager
08:59
<Gadi>
isnt multiverse where Homer Simpson is floating around eating potato chips?
08:59
<ogra>
vagrant knows more about it than me, he spent some weeks on it and gave up
08:59
<Gadi>
I wont call it a display manager
08:59
Ill call it an LDM client
08:59
done
08:59
<ogra>
heh
09:01
<dmarkey_>
ok so LDM contacts the broker, checks username/password and directs to whichever VM is available, or and old session
09:01
an*
09:01
<Gadi>
right - it basically sends back: use RDP to connect to server XYZ or use ssh -X to connect to server ABC
09:01
...
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09:02
<dmarkey_>
hmm.. no session mobility on the linux side
09:02
<Gadi>
we would be a multilingual broker
09:02
yeah, but thats a different topic
09:02
you want session mobility, send back: use NX to connect to server FGH
09:03
<dmarkey_>
so, if someone is logged in in location A, moves to location B, but still logged into location A, what happens
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09:03
<Gadi>
if you set LDM_LIMIT_ONE_SESSION = True, he gets kicked off A
09:03
<dmarkey_>
so that kills the forked sshd?
09:03
<Gadi>
as we do now
09:04
yeah
09:04
it kills all his old processes
09:04
<dmarkey_>
even ones not related to the old session? say if he had an old screen
09:07
<Gadi>
dont make me look back at the code
09:07
:)
09:08
<dmarkey_>
then you have to have a provisioning system etc.. it could get complicated
09:08
<Gadi>
well, ltsp-cluster has a load-balancer piece
09:08
that could be expanded to be a rules-based provisioning system
09:09
but, yeah, if it were a one-line patch, it wouldnt be another project
09:09
:)
09:09
<dmarkey_>
i must look into ltsp-cluster
09:10
<Gadi>
but, I do like the idea of an ldm-broker
09:10
<dmarkey_>
yea, should be really easy with some xmlrpc
09:10
althougfh it is pure C isnt it
09:13* dmarkey_ was thinking python
09:16
<Ryan52>
sbalneav: the link for docs in /topic points to a 404
09:19
<sbalneav>
Ryan52: Hm, I don't have chanops, I'll have to see if I can get jammcq to pop in.
09:20
thanks for the heads up
09:20
<Ryan52>
sbalneav: chanserv says you do...
09:20
<sbalneav>
I do?!
09:20
buh
09:21
um, ok, how do I become op? :)
09:21
<Ryan52>
sbalneav: /msg chanserv op #ltsp
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09:21ChanServ sets mode: +o sbalneav
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09:21
<sbalneav>
Wow
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09:21
<Ryan52>
ta da!
09:21
:)
09:21
<sbalneav>
When the heck did I get that!?
09:22
Ok, well, if I'm gonna reset the topic, what would people like to see up there?
09:22
<ogra>
proper urls :)
09:22
i think the rest is still valid
09:24
<sbalneav>
Hmmm, wonder what IRC command I use to list the topic... /list topic?
09:24
<Ryan52>
/topic
09:25
<sbalneav>
ah, ok, and to set? (Geez, I've never done this before!)
09:25
<Ryan52>
/topic Blah Blah blah blah blah...
09:25
<sbalneav>
ok
09:26
uno momento
09:26sbalneav changes topic to "LTSP-5 is the current version that you should be using. Check out Ubuntu, Debian and Fedora for awesome integration. Gentoo is getting very close and Opensuse has kiwi-ltsp. IRC logs at: http://www.nubae.com/logs/, LTSP Docs: https://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/ltsp/index.php?title=Ltsp_LtspDocumentationUpstream"
09:26
<ogra>
in xchat you just click into the topic field and change it :)
09:27
<sbalneav>
Can't run xchat in screen :)
09:27
<ogra>
pfft
09:27
commandline junkie
09:27
<sbalneav>
gui goon
09:27
:)
09:27
<ogra>
did you ever try byobou ?
09:27
:)
09:28
screen with bottom panel :)
09:28
oh, its byobu
09:28
<sbalneav>
No, I haven't! I'll have to check it out.
09:28
<ogra>
not ou
09:29
<sbalneav>
I thought it was a contraction of "Bring Your Own Bouze" :)
09:29
<ogra>
heh
09:29
no, its something japanese
09:29
<sbalneav>
yeah, folding screens or something geisha's hide behind.
09:30
<ogra>
yeah
09:30
<sbalneav>
Lets see if I can deop. I don't like having this much power
09:30ChanServ sets mode: -o sbalneav
09:30
<sbalneav>
foo
09:31
<ogra>
clap clap clap
09:31
<sbalneav>
Whew, that was scary
09:31
I think we need to change the interface.
09:31
should be /msg chanserv sudo /topic blah Blah
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09:54
<dmarkey_>
so, where does LTSP developmnent talk take place, here? mailing lists?
09:56
<johnny>
both yes..
09:56
<sbalneav>
dmarkey_: Prolly more here than mailing lists
09:56
we tend to discuss here, then post findings to the mailing list.
09:56
<dmarkey_>
Cool so how do i get the ball rolling on an LTSP broker :)
10:00
<cyberorg>
sbalneav, http://tr.im/ltspdoc this would be better :)
10:00
<johnny>
why?
10:00
url shorteners are not the greatest thing to happen to the internet..
10:01
who knows when the service might disappear and leave millions of broken links
10:01
<Gadi>
dmarkey_: *LDM* broker
10:01
<johnny>
cyberorg, please use full urls
10:01
<cyberorg>
johnny, of course not, but at least we can see other stuff in the /topic bar in xchat
10:01
<johnny>
unless you're on twitter
10:01
or some other micro blog
10:01
<dmarkey_>
Gadi: Surwe
10:01
<johnny>
cyberorg, better to add a redirect at the source instead
10:01
<dmarkey_>
Gadi: but if possible id like a standalone client aswell
10:02
<Gadi>
dmarkey_: I have a sworn duty to protect and defend the independent integrity of LDM
10:02
<johnny>
ttps://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/ltsp/LTSPDocs is possible at the very least
10:02
<Gadi>
dmarkey_: yes - we can make ldm-client ;)
10:02
<johnny>
or..
10:02
<Gadi>
dmarkey_: easy enough
10:02
<dmarkey_>
So, thats basically ssh -X + Xnest?
10:02
<johnny>
whoever owns ltsp.org can make docs.ltsp.org go to that..
10:02
that would be a better solution
10:03
<Gadi>
dmarkey_: if we have a broker, it would be more than that
10:03
<dmarkey_>
but as it stands at the minutwe
10:03
<Gadi>
mostly
10:03
<cyberorg>
johnny, yes there are many better options, but tr.im is available right now to use till better alternative is done, saves some space in topic
10:03
<Gadi>
it would be in the same ldm package
10:03
we would just have a script calld ldm-client that gets placed in /usr/bin
10:03
<johnny>
cyberorg, changing the dns entry can be done now too
10:04
<cyberorg>
johnny, yup, but you and i cannot :)
10:04
<dmarkey_>
and would this install all the dependencies like Xnest, rdesktop, nxclient?
10:04
<Gadi>
actually, maybe a different package that relies on ldm
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10:04
<Gadi>
so it can pull in all the other deps
10:05
<dmarkey_>
hmm.. nxclient is a pain to try to script as far as i remember
10:05
<Gadi>
nah
10:06
pain is a four letter word
10:06
<dmarkey_>
has anyone deployed FreeNX with LTSP, with nxclient as the client?
10:06
<Gadi>
yup
10:07
<dmarkey_>
nxagent is a heavy load on the server as far as i remember
10:07
<Gadi>
do you always worry this much?
10:07
:)
10:09
I promise, there's a bridge out there, you just need to step off the cliff - the bridge blends into the cliff wall to make it look invisible
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10:09
<sbalneav>
Only the Penitent man shall pass...
10:09
<dmarkey_>
:)
10:10
<sbalneav>
He chose..... poorly.
10:10
<dmarkey_>
I'm not sure a 1-1 realtionship works with LTSP on the linux side
10:10
or if its needed
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10:29
<dmarkey_>
has anyone experienced a ceiling of sessions a server can handle, that possibly could be more with individual machines on a hypervisor?
10:31
<sbalneav>
Ceiling as in a hardcoded limit, or ceiling as in machine's cpu pukes on the floor from overload?
10:32
<dmarkey_>
the latter
10:32
as in everone's session starts to get affected
10:32
<sbalneav>
Last time I checked, hypervisors don't magically make cpu cycles out of thin air.
10:33
if you have a machine with 20 ltsp sessions, it uses 20 * x cpu cycles
10:33
if you have a machine running a hypervisor with 20 virtual machines, it's going to use 20 * (x + y) where y = overhead associated with running a hypervisor
10:34
so people are going to be affected WORSE that way.
10:34
<dmarkey_>
im not sure that's entirely true
10:34
<sbalneav>
Please explain.
10:35
I'm just dying to hear how adding more things for the cpu to do is going to make it faster :)
10:36
<johnny>
well, it would isolate insane processes
10:36
so other people could continue to work
10:36
<sbalneav>
How?
10:36
<dmarkey_>
Because each user has their own machine, they dont get affected quote as severely from another VM hogging the CPU, if they wer all on the same kernel instance the affect would be dramatic
10:36
<johnny>
because you can restrict the upper bound on cpu usage i think?
10:37
per instance
10:37
so.. only the people or person on that one instance would get affected by their own insane flash :)
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10:37
<johnny>
other people who weren't using flash could continue doing what they were doing
10:37
<dmarkey_>
johnny: exactly
10:37* sbalneav rolls eyes
10:37
<johnny>
dmarkey_, i think sbalneav thinks it's the wrong place to solve the problem
10:37
and he's right
10:38
but still.. not much we can really do
10:38
<sbalneav>
You know, instead of everybody theorizing about how wonderful things would be in this regard
10:38
<johnny>
i'm not theorizin nothin
10:38
my 3 clients are fine :)
10:38
lol
10:38
<sbalneav>
I wish someone would ACTUALLY DO IT AND POST SOME HARD DATA SOMEWHERE
10:38
<johnny>
-> dmarkey_ :)
10:39
i just think it's too annoying to manage
10:39
<dmarkey_>
its very hard to find a metric for user experience
10:39
<johnny>
you could video teh difference tho
10:39
screencast*
10:39
as how it affected responsiveness on other terminals
10:39
<sbalneav>
And besides, you can also set cpu limits in a plain single instance as well
10:39
via the nice command.
10:40
<johnny>
nice often doesn't work as nicely as i wish
10:40
<sbalneav>
and with 20 hypervisors, you've got 20 inits
10:40
<johnny>
it's still not the same aes forcing it at the hypervisor
10:40
<sbalneav>
20 buffer-flushers
10:40
<johnny>
sbalneav, yes.. i think it's the wrong way to solve the problem
10:40
<dmarkey_>
johnny: what's your suggestion?
10:40
<johnny>
the right way is to fix the apps
10:40
:)
10:40
<dmarkey_>
well, thats never going to happen
10:40
<johnny>
for flash? or other?
10:41
for others.. it seems possible
10:41
<dmarkey_>
you're always going to get badly designed apps that hog CPU
10:41
<sbalneav>
Apps get fixed. It just takes someone willing to invest the time and effort to fix the app.
10:41
<johnny>
sbalneav, except flash.. :)
10:41
<dmarkey_>
thwe only way to contain them is via virtualisation
10:41
<sbalneav>
johnny: gnash
10:41
<johnny>
that requires coding experience far beyond most people
10:42
including myself
10:42
altho.. hopefully all this new fangled gstreamer cairo stuff will help
10:42
<dmarkey_>
what about a user that compiles an infinate loop and runs it.
10:42
<sbalneav>
How's virtualization going to fix that?
10:43
<johnny>
there was a nice daemon to stop that kidna thing
10:43
sbalneav, only make it affect a limited number of people
10:43
<sbalneav>
you either have to manage a runaway process, or a runaway virtual machine.
10:43
<johnny>
that's what..
10:43
the virutal machine won't run away
10:43
<dmarkey_>
scales back their VM instance so its doesnt get CPU time, easy
10:43
<johnny>
or shouldn't at least..
10:43
<sbalneav>
Then howcome I get vmware machines that end up sucking down my vmware farm?
10:43
when something goes awry?
10:44
<dmarkey_>
i've been using xen for years, never got a VM that affected another VM, except for maybe a bit of disk IO
10:44
<sbalneav>
Of course they do
10:45
if you've got 2 virtual machines
10:45
1 using 100% cpu
10:45
the other using 50% cpu
10:45
the host didn't magically get 50% more cpu
10:45
They're being throttled
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10:46
<sbalneav>
virtualization doesn't magically make cpu cycles apear out of nowhere.
10:47
all you're doing is moving the problem/issue up (or down, depending on your viewpoint) one level.
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10:50
<sbalneav>
Now, if you want to say, "I'd rather MANAGE the issue at a vm level, rather than on a per-process level" that's ok.
10:50
but vm'ing things doesn't make the problem go away, it just chages where you deal with the problem.
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10:53
<norbi>
Hello, I currently have an LTSP set-up. Wanted to know how can I check client info from the client machine. If I do cat /proc/meminfo it gives me server info. Thanks for help.
10:56
<sbalneav>
norbi: Probably want to use ltsp_localapp to run a terminal so you can look at /proc/meminfo
10:57
johnny: I notice I killed the conversation. I hope people aren't taking me wrong
10:57
I'm just trying to point out that vm's don't SOLVE the problem, they just make the problem DIFFERENT, I'm not trying to be obstreperous.
10:59
<johnny>
i think everybody knows that sbalneav
10:59
it's just to confine the problem
10:59
not solve it
11:00
confining it makes it easier to not affect other people
11:00
when nice doesn't quite do the trick
11:03
<norbi>
sbalneav: Sorry I'm not sure what you mean, is that an app that i download? I am running LTSP built into Edubuntu.
11:04
<Gadi>
norbi: type: ltsp-localapps xterm in a terminal window
11:04
that pops up another terminal window that is local to the client
11:07
<norbi>
Excellent, that worked, thank you. Another question, not so much related to ltsp. Is there a utility which i can test HDD on client and Memory on client?
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11:35
<scottmaccal>
Snow day today.
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11:53
<anivair>
Afternoon all. I hope someone is in hte mood to help me out a bit, because I'm sort of stumped.
11:53
I have a fresh install of ltsp running on a fresh install of ubuntu (karmic).
11:54
vrand new server that is ten times the hardware of our old one, but it's running at something like half the speed
11:54
everything is moving at a crawl. I'm wondering if it's to do with the processor, since it's across the board. I've never used ltsp on an x64 machine before
11:55
<johnny>
well.. check the system monitor or top
11:55
see what is using up your resources (or not)
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12:00
<ehrenpr>
is there anyone around who can help me setup italc?
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12:12
<anivair>
nada. resources don't look bad. some firefox at the top, but that's common
12:13
nothing that should be bnogging down this server
12:13
it's sort of a beast
12:14
<johnny>
install iotop
12:15
check to see what's banging your disk then?
12:15
<anivair>
will do
12:16
I was hoping that it was tracker. like maybe it was just a problem when they first logged on because tracker was being a jerk, but it didn't get better
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12:19
<johnny>
anivair, tracker doesn't stop being a jerk
12:19
i disabled tracker on all my installs until 0.7 comes out
12:19
0.7 will be the first one that is any good
12:19
anivair, disable it in /etc/xdg/autostart
12:19
edit both tracker files
12:19
there's an autostart key in there.. forget what it is called
12:19
<Eghie>
hello
12:19
<anivair>
well, i checked for waus to disable tracker, but the ubuntu pages suggest adding an auto-hide option, which doesn't sound like it actually disables anything
12:19
<johnny>
i just told you how
12:20
<Eghie>
are there any script to automaticly copy the LTSP client to the harddrive of the thin client?
12:20
<johnny>
why?
12:20
<anivair>
yeah, saw that after I responded
12:20
<johnny>
why would you want to do that?
12:20
<Eghie>
so you can offload the nbd
12:20
offload network
12:20
<johnny>
it won't just work..
12:20
you would have to edit it
12:20
your problem isn't there Eghie ..
12:20
i doubt nbd is causing you too much traffic
12:20
<Eghie>
don't have any problem currently though
12:20
<johnny>
it's gonna be more hassle than it is wroth to make it work as you think you want it
12:21
<Eghie>
nah, clients do have a harddrive on board
12:21
so I was thinking of using that some sort
12:22
<johnny>
well you could use the local swap
12:22
that would be more useful
12:22
<anivair>
odd ... I seem not to have any tracker files. Was it maybe removed from karmic?
12:22
huh
12:22
<Eghie>
yeah, doing that already
12:23
<johnny>
Eghie, that's the best way to use it.. to use local swap
12:23
<Eghie>
nah, was more thinking of a way as when network is not working, a small kind of offline ubuntu for small things or something similar
12:23
<johnny>
anivair,
12:23
[root@falling ~]# ls /etc/xdg/autostart/tracker*
12:23
/etc/xdg/autostart/tracker-applet.desktop /etc/xdg/autostart/trackerd.desktop
12:23
Eghie, you wouldn't be able to use ltsp anyways if you did that
12:23
as you need network anyways to get a desktop
12:24
just install a regular ubuntu if you want offline access
12:24
<Eghie>
nah, more as backup solution
12:24
yeah, could do that as well
12:24
<johnny>
the chroot wouldn't be able to do anything without network
12:24
eve nif you did get it on the hard drive
12:24
better to just install ubuntu
12:24
or some other distro
12:25
<Eghie>
well, debootstrapping ubuntu should work I guess
12:25
<anivair>
that's what I'm saying. I have no tracker files is autostart
12:25
which, i guess, means that it's not my problem, at least
12:26
<johnny>
anivair, well is it surely starting up ?
12:27
<Eghie>
I guess I could debootstrap edubuntu-desktop
12:28
<johnny>
if you feel like it
12:28
but are you sure it's worth the hassle..
12:28
<Eghie>
nah, network/server can sometimes get slow on many clients with heavy programs
12:29
<anivair>
must not be. ps aux|grep tracker and trackerd give me nothing
12:29
<Eghie>
and sometimes they want to use offline capabilities on such occasions
12:29
<anivair>
for the time being, I won't look a gift horse in hte mouth
12:29
less tracker = better
12:33
<Eghie>
johnny is swap to only thing I can use those harddisk for, to speedup the clients?
12:34
or can I lay a sort of caching layer on top of parts of the chroot?
12:35
<johnny>
too much hassle
12:35
if you wanna speed up certain apps you can install them locally in the chroot
12:35
<Eghie>
yeah, but I am a programmer liking actually those things ;)
12:35
<johnny>
if your clients are powerful enough
12:35
<Eghie>
yeah they are
12:35
<johnny>
then install firefox and flash for example
12:35
in the chroot
12:36
<Eghie>
using ltsp-localapps on FF openoffice and such
12:36
<johnny>
i think we have docs for that..
12:36
yes
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13:08
<jammcq>
hey friends
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13:16
<alkisg>
Hey jammcq! An idea was dropped earier here, that maybe docs.ltsp.org could point to the wiki site, so that it would be shorter for the irc /topic...
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13:17
<shawnp0wers>
Or http://tinyurl.com/ltspdocs
13:18
<_UsUrPeR_>
hey all. I'm trying to figure out what happened to etherboot support in 9.10.
13:18
any pointers?
13:18
<shawnp0wers>
Yeah -- it's broken
13:18
:D
13:19
<_UsUrPeR_>
nuuuuu -_-
13:19
<shawnp0wers>
hehehehe
13:19
and low priority to fix, due to gPXE
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13:19
<shawnp0wers>
I have to re-do most of my older clients that have a rom-o-matic image on them
13:19
and put gPXE on them
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13:20
<_UsUrPeR_>
yeah, well there's a lot of units out there, and we can't rom-o-matic all of them :)
13:20
<shawnp0wers>
Also: SNOW DAY! W00T!
13:20
<_UsUrPeR_>
srsly?
13:20
<shawnp0wers>
heheheheh
13:20
oh yeah
13:20
<_UsUrPeR_>
what does it take to get a snow day up there?
13:20
<shawnp0wers>
Something broke in making the nbi etherboot image
13:20
Gadi knew more about it than I did
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13:20
<_UsUrPeR_>
down here, it seemed to require the Pearl Harbor of snowshowers to get my school to give us a day off.
13:20
<shawnp0wers>
Um -- like a foot of snow and 35MPH winds...
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13:21
<_UsUrPeR_>
gadi: ping?
13:21
<shawnp0wers>
Poor Gadi has given me so much help with my 9.10 rollout.
13:21* shawnp0wers sends virtual pizza and beer to Gadi
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13:23
<_UsUrPeR_>
how's clustering going?
13:23
<shawnp0wers>
Seems good. I still get that intermittent problem where a user hangs during login.
13:24
I can't seem to get a pattern though, nor any error messages that make sense
13:24
Do appservers need to be identical to balance correctly?
13:24
my 4 are, but if I add more to the cluster, they won't be...
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13:26
<shawnp0wers>
_UsUrPeR_: I'm actually thinking we might get a two-fer, and get tmorrow off too
13:26
the snow is really coming down
13:26
and is supposed to continue
13:26
:D
13:26
<_UsUrPeR_>
shawnp0wers: lucky duck
13:26
<shawnp0wers>
it helps that we have LOTS of back roads
13:27
<_UsUrPeR_>
I thought that was the entire upper-michigan road system up there
13:27
<shawnp0wers>
well yeah
13:27
<anivair>
shawnp0wners: did you have a lot of trouble with 9.10? i'm having some issues now myself, and if there's something you can suggest, i'm all ears.
13:27
<shawnp0wers>
but our district is very wide spread
13:28
anivair: well, not lots of problems really -- what sort do you mean?
13:28
I am using a single NIC setup, which eliminates a lot of issues
13:28
which _UsUrPeR_ reminded me of yesterday. :)
13:28
<anivair>
I'm having issues with the machine running at a crawl (despite a LOT more ram and processing power than the old server)
13:29
<shawnp0wers>
the server is running slow, or the thin clients?
13:29
<anivair>
I'm also single nic (I have 2 installed, but only one is live)
13:29
<shawnp0wers>
might it be trying to use the 2nd NIC?
13:29
DNS issue?
13:29
timeout issue?
13:29
<anivair>
hmm ... the clients, I suppose, though the server does seem to hang occasionally when a client is stuck on something
13:29
it hangs temporarily. 30 seconds tops
13:29
both are possible
13:29
<shawnp0wers>
that sounds like DNS or network issues
13:30
<anivair>
drat. networking is not my strong suite.
13:30
<shawnp0wers>
I bond my two ethernet ports together, and use them both with one IP address
13:30
<anivair>
I didn't even know you could do that
13:30
<shawnp0wers>
yeah -- those 30 second hangs really sound like DNS
13:30
<anivair>
*hands in his geek card*
13:30
<shawnp0wers>
oh yeah, bonding ethernet ports is so cool
13:30
it's not hard either, but can require a switch that supports it
13:30
<anivair>
any good way to check to see if it's DNS?
13:31
<shawnp0wers>
for the best performance
13:31
um...
13:31
well, not a surefire way
13:31
<anivair>
heh
13:31
<shawnp0wers>
check /etc/resolv.conf on the server
13:31
see what's in there
13:31
make sure it's pointing to somehting that works
13:31
also make sure your DHCP server is handing out DNS info to the clients
13:32
<anivair>
it's pointing to my primary and secondary DNS, definately
13:32
<shawnp0wers>
hmm
13:32
is DNS firewalled off for the thin clients?
13:32
<anivair>
with the exception of some whitespace, it's the same file that I have on two other working servers
13:32
it is
13:32
well, the whole network is behind a firewall
13:33
<shawnp0wers>
but can the thin clients reach the dns servers they are assigned via DHCP?
13:33
if they can't reach the servers, they might hang while trying
13:33
I'm really just guessing here though
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13:33
<shawnp0wers>
is your second ethernet port configured at all?
13:34
maybe something is trying to use it...
13:34
<anivair>
DHCP
13:34
<shawnp0wers>
wait, your second ethernet port is running DHCP?
13:34
<anivair>
I suppose it could be that the thin clients are trying to use the disabled post
13:34
<shawnp0wers>
it depends on how it is disabled I guess
13:35
<anivair>
er, no. the thin clients are assigned via DHCP (standard LTSP style)
13:35
there is no other dhcp running in the office
13:35
the second port ... let me check
13:35
<shawnp0wers>
also, what gateway do the thin clients get assigned?
13:35
perhaps they can't access directly, but the server can?
13:35
<anivair>
the primary is eth0 and it's configured right. the second is eth1 and i is blank, i believe
13:35
hmm
13:35
I'm not sure what gateway they get assigned
13:36
I assumed they inherited the gateway info from the server
13:36
<shawnp0wers>
it might be doing something as simple as trying to reach an NTP server, and hanging while trying
13:36
single nic setups get complicated, for completely other reasons that 2 NIC setups are complicated. :D
13:36
<anivair>
heh
13:36
at least for this switch I kept hte old server running. that was a bad mistake last time!
13:37
<alkisg>
"(09:32:06 μμ) shawnp0wers: also make sure your DHCP server is handing out DNS info to the clients" ==> Is that working in 9.10? I thought we fixed it (it wasn't supported before, we had to use DNS_SERVER in lts.conf), but I didn't test it...
13:38
<anivair>
alkisg: if it were not, would it hang before reaching the outside internet, or would it not reach it at all, so you think?
13:38
the thin clients can access the net, though slowly
13:38
(they seem ot be doing everyhting slowly)
13:38
<alkisg>
anivair: well, run ltsp-localapps xterm and see :)
13:38
<anivair>
if I didn't know better, I'd say it was low ran, but I know that cant be the case
13:39
hrm ... I'll have to jump on a thin client to run that
13:39
I'm ssh'd into the server ATM
13:39
<alkisg>
Well the clients access the internet in the same way as the server
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13:40
<alkisg>
DNS would be only used for localapps, do you use localapps?
13:40
<shawnp0wers>
alkisg: I wasn't sure if anything else needed DNS
13:40
<anivair>
I have not configured it, so if it's not configured by default, I am not
13:40
<alkisg>
Then dns, gateways etc are not an issue,
13:40
<anivair>
(it's been a few versions since I installed ltsp last, so I'm not sure what has changed exactly)
13:40
8.04 was the last version of ubuntu I installed on
13:40
<alkisg>
except for reverse dns lookups that the server does when it sees the IPs of the clients
13:40
<anivair>
hmm
13:41
<alkisg>
So if you don't have dns entries for them, maybe you can put them in /etc/hosts
13:42
<anivair>
wait, I should put my dns servers in /etc/hosts? I don't think I've ever heard of that.
13:42
<alkisg>
No no
13:42
<anivair>
oh, good
13:42
(I was confused)
13:42
<alkisg>
When the server is contacted by "10.123.123.123", it tries to find the dns name for that ip
13:43
So if your dns server knows that that IP corresponds to ltsp123, then it replies promptly
13:43
<anivair>
I see.
13:43
<alkisg>
If your dns server doesn't know about it, then you can put "10.123.123.123 ltsp123" in /etc/hosts
13:43
<anivair>
the ltsp server is listed in /etc/hosts
13:44
I've actually got en entry for localhost and for the hostname of hte server
13:44
I've got localhost at 127.0.0.1 and the hostname at 127.0.1.1
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13:52
<dmarkey_>
sbalneav: sorry got pulled into a meeting
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13:57
<dmarkey_>
i just think it might be a good experement to swee the results
13:57
see*
13:59
<johnny>
nobody is stoppin ya dmarkey_ :)
14:00
<dmarkey_>
i might a student to do it as a final year project
14:00
get*
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15:13
<ehrenpr>
can anyone help me get italc set up? I can connect if I am logged into the server but, I cant connect from the same usere on a thin client. It complains about service not installed or broken keys.
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15:14
<sbalneav>
dmarkey_: I'd be delighted to see some hard data. I have no vested interest in being proved right or wrong, my only issue is one of dealing with the symptom vs. dealing with the problem. I think vm'ing everything creates a LOT of overhead, and in the end, doesn't actually solve anything.
15:14
<johnny>
it solves some peoplee getting screwed by others? :)
15:14
one method of virtuallization that would have less overhead would be something like linux-vserver or openvz
15:15
as you're not virtualzing the kernel when you do that
15:15
<sbalneav>
No, they just get screwed differently
15:15
f'rinstance. Lets say you cap cpu usage.
15:15
<johnny>
the people who didn't launch the insane job are the ones who aren't getting screwed anymore
15:15
<sbalneav>
ok, so one runaway process can't bog down anyone else.
15:15
<johnny>
and that is the major benefit
15:16
<sbalneav>
but, lets say you've got 19 people typing in openoffice, using up 10% cpu
15:16
and one guy who needs to do a fourier transform, which will take 1 minute of cpu usage.
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15:16
<sbalneav>
he's now going to take 10 minutes, 'cuz he's throttled down so hard.
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15:17
<sbalneav>
whereas before, he wouldn't have affected the other 19, since the cpu's loafing on them.
15:17
<johnny>
well, you can of course set some thresholds for bursting
15:17
so as to minimize that problem
15:17
<sbalneav>
And then someone exceeds them
15:18
and your management of the system becomes much harder.
15:18
<johnny>
at least they don't bog down anybody else anymoer :)
15:18
of course..
15:18
<sbalneav>
your kindergarten teacher who wants to show videos of fluffy bunnies now has to become a kvm expert
15:18
<jammcq>
mmmm, fluffy bunnies
15:19
makes an awesome stew
15:19
<sbalneav>
Like I say, you haven't *solved the problem*, you've *just made the problem different*
15:19
jammcq!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
15:19
<johnny>
no.. not solved..
15:19
it's not about solving.. only minimizing the impact
15:20
<sbalneav>
Taking aspirin for a brain tumor minimizes the impact too.
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15:20
<sbalneav>
Brain don't hurt so much :)
15:22
Plus, I'd wager given machine X that could handle 20 *real* ltsp clients, is probably only going to be able to handle 15 kvm sessions.
15:22
But I'm pulling numbers out of my *ss on that one, we'd need hard data to know for sure.
15:23
<dmarkey_>
sbalneav: clients doing what
15:23
<sbalneav>
"normal stuff", for whatever value of "normal" we have.
15:23
Here's a real hard number:
15:23
<dmarkey_>
so, on youtube :)
15:24
<sbalneav>
15:24:11 up 79 days, 1:46, 35 users, load average: 0.96, 1.49, 1.44
15:24
k, this is a 2 dual core xeon box
15:24
8 gigs of ram
15:24
<dmarkey_>
how many read users
15:24
real
15:25
<sbalneav>
35
15:25
like it says at the top
15:25
<dmarkey_>
35 seperate sessions?
15:25
<sbalneav>
yes
15:25
so, how many virtual machines am I going to be able to run on that box?
15:26
<dmarkey_>
36
15:26
:)
15:26
<sbalneav>
You are so full of grade A certified b********
15:26
and you know it.
15:26
try MAYBE 10
15:26
<vagrantc>
depends on what your bottlenecks are
15:26
<dmarkey_>
its going to be memory
15:27
<sbalneav>
I don't HAVE any, machine's running fine.
15:27
<vagrantc>
linux-vserver and openvz are basically glorified chroots
15:27
<dmarkey_>
yea, you'll still have the same probs i think
15:27
<vagrantc>
if it ain't broke, and the economy sucks, go ahead and fix it
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15:29
<vagrantc>
there's no problem like no problem
15:30
<dmarkey_>
well maybe that model doesnt work for LTSP
15:30
<sbalneav>
No, no, VM's solve everything!
15:31
<dmarkey_>
thank god.. seeing sense at last!
15:31
<sbalneav>
They're like magical moonbeams! they make cpu cycles and memory appear out of thin air!
15:31
<vagrantc>
virtual machines rock as far as backups, recovery, remote maintenance, etc. but there's some overhead.
15:31
<sbalneav>
so, dmarky_, your challenge, should you choose to accept it...
15:32* vagrantc could use a few magical moonbeams
15:32
<sbalneav>
is to tell me how much hardware I'm going to need in order to run 35 separate VM's with an aggregated loadavg of 1.5, for 35 users.
15:32
to do openoffice, thunderbird, and firefox (no youtube) :)
15:33
<Eghie>
sbalneav: do you count ltsp-localapps?
15:33
<sbalneav>
no
15:33
I do NO localapps
15:33
<vagrantc>
well, openvz and linux-vserver take virtually no additional overhead
15:33
<Eghie>
hehe, ok
15:33
<sbalneav>
all. on. the. server.
15:33
<Eghie>
ah ok
15:33
<vagrantc>
uses the same ram and disk space (if you choose to)
15:33
<dmarkey_>
vagrantc: but very little advantage
15:34
<vagrantc>
dmarkey_: i wouldn't say that.
15:35
<dmarkey_>
would an openvz jail deal with a runaway process better than a vanilla kernel?
15:35
<vagrantc>
yes
15:35
well, it could
15:35
<johnny>
there are quite a few things to tweak in regards to that dmarkey_ ..
15:35
<vagrantc>
takes some administrative overhead to set some limits
15:36
<johnny>
bit alot simpler than xen or kvm..
15:36
<vagrantc>
and to make sure those limits aren't evil. but it gives some additional tools to use for very little cost.
15:37
i'm not saying it's definitely going to solve all your problems, but i wouldn't completely write it off either.
15:37
<dmarkey_>
i suppose each chroot could be an lvm snapshot, so deployment would be fast
15:38
<johnny>
gotta be a way to take less space..
15:38
share the / somewhow
15:38
as you really only care about the process segregation
15:38
<dmarkey_>
hmm..
15:40
suppose you could do a mount --bind
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15:41
<alkisg>
ehrenpr: distro / version?
15:44
<ehrenpr>
edubuntu karmic
15:44
<alkisg>
ehrenpr: and you installed italc on the server only, or did you put it at the chroot as well?
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15:46
<ehrenpr>
at first on the server then couldnt connect to italc master from client. and in chroot. Right now I am tring again with these instructions for chroot install https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/iTalc
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15:49
<alkisg>
ehrenpr: ok, choose which method you want so that we can go on with debugging it. Just on the server is much, much simpler, but if for some reason you prefer the chroot method, np...
15:50
<ehrenpr>
ok i am almost done with chroot option.
15:50
<alkisg>
First, lets check the keys: sudo diff -r /etc/italc/keys /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/italc/keys
15:50
What does this say?
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16:00
<ehrenpr>
i have to reboot
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16:00
<Eghie>
how much does nbd actually use on average?
16:00
as network traffic
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16:06
<ehrenpr>
it lists a ton of keys, admin/key, ate/supporter/key etc
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16:07
<alkisg>
ehrenpr: then the keys are not copied correctly. You need to copy the server keys to the chroot.
16:08
(the public ones)
16:08
<ehrenpr>
How?
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16:09
<ehrenpr>
just cp /etc/italc/keys/public to chroot?
16:09
<alkisg>
Yes, cp -a
16:09
<ehrenpr>
ok let me see
16:09
<alkisg>
But if the wiki doesn't have the correct instructions, you'd better use the simple method (=NOT on the chroot)
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16:13
<ehrenpr>
sudo cp -a /etc/italc/keys/public /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/italc/keys/public still says broken keys, do i need to rebuild?
16:17
<alkisg>
Who says broken keys? iTalc? Yes, you need to rebuild.
16:18
<ehrenpr>
I figured Im currently rebuilding, Yes Italc
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16:22
<alkisg>
ehrenpr: what does this give you? ls -d /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/italc/keys/public/public
16:22
If that directory exists, you didn't copy the keys correctly...
16:22
<map7_>
If I'm using the ltsp-build-image, which on my ubuntu system creates an image in /opt/ltsp/i386, what is the best way to backup that directory?
16:23
I've tried copying that directory to another name, but when I restore it, then update the image it has errors relating to ICEauthority
16:23
<Eghie>
cp -Ra /opt/ltsp/i386 /opt/ltsp/i386_backup
16:24
<ehrenpr>
rebooting..
16:24
<alkisg>
Why?
16:24
<johnny>
just cp -a
16:24
no need for -R with -a
16:24
<Eghie>
ah ok
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16:25
<map7_>
cool thanks for that, i've been running a few tests and thought I was missing something simple
16:25
<Eghie>
could also use rsync -aHAX /opt/ltsp/i386 /opt/ltsp/i386_backup (if even the cp -a doesn't work)
16:26
but I do think cp -a does work ok
16:26
<map7_>
what about tar with compression is that ok?
16:26
I plan on having a few backups and don't want them to take up much space
16:27
<Eghie>
if you really want an ok backup solution, use rdiff-backup or bacula
16:27
or rsnapshot
16:27
or something
16:27
<johnny>
tar with p is important..
16:27
tar cvzpf ltsp_chroot.tar.gz /opt/ltsp/i386
16:27
the p is important for the same reason -a is
16:27
keep the permissions
16:28
<map7_>
thanks johnny
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16:30
<alkisg>
I think you can also backup the image in /opt/ltsp/images, and un-squashfs it if you want the chroot again...
16:30
This is already compressed...
16:31
<map7_>
that's cool
16:31
<johnny>
alkisg, that is'nt necessarily true
16:31
some distros trim stuff before compression
16:31
before squashing i mean
16:31
as in --exclude or whatever arg
16:32
so.. you always want to backup the full system
16:32
the full chroot that is..
16:32
<alkisg>
But isn't what they exclude unnecessary? E.g. /root etc?
16:34
But sure, I've never tried to un-squashfs it, so I'm just guessing here... :)
16:34
<johnny>
alkisg, sure.. but if you have stuff in the chroot like man pages
16:34
wouldn't you like to read them?
16:35
for a program that doesn't exist on the server
16:35
or whatever
16:35
<alkisg>
Which distro deletes man pages? :O
16:38* alkisg just saw that there's a switch to *not* compress the image, and wonders if that's faster on gigabit network + very old clients..
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17:11
<johnny>
uggh.. how can i find out what is using so much io on an rhel 5 box :(
17:11
i'm used to iotop :(
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19:01
<madcat>
Hello, how do you save this transcript? When I save it it's in Chinese characters, what the?
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<moldy>
jbernard: /aa
19:44
oops sorry :)
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20:01
<madcat>
bye
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21:13
<madcat>
Hi, why can't I run localapps on my thin client, I choose: Applications>Office>OpenOffice.org Word Processor, then I ltsp-localapps xterm, ps ax | grep office -> I don't see OpenOffice running on the thin client! Can anybody help me?
21:14
I already followed this guide: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTSPLocalAppSetup
21:15
My goal is to launch the application without having to type ltsp-localapps (program)
21:15
everytime - because I have 20 thin clients!
21:15
Thanks...
21:16
Also this guide: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPLocalAppsJaunty
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21:28
<madcat>
Hi is someone here?
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