IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 19 November 2013   (all times are UTC)

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00:44
<joules>
hi, is the video performance of the rpi better than the t573x ? We have some t573x and looking to replace them.
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05:39
<Ryan52>
warren: Interesting, I can't find details about whether there is anything kernel level involved with Time Machine's operations, but assuming not, I guess there are two angles that could be taken... either the logging of file changes (which bitcoin surely hammers hard, but presumably happens at FS level so would happen even without TM enabled) or something in the backup process itself interacting badly, somehow.
05:39
wrong channel. I fail.
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12:00
<DiGiWoLf>
Hi anyone can help?????
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14:06
<cliebow>
bennabiy, i think no one really cares which way you add users..openldap is so fast it chews up an ldif in an instant
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14:09
<bennabiy>
good to know
14:10
Has anyone made steps towards using nss_ldapd for a global LTSP authentication base?
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15:14
<sbalneav>
Morning all
15:15
bennabiy: I use ldap for authentication now.
15:15
but we're working towards PAM based authentication.
15:38
<bennabiy>
sbalneav: which would allow for ldap or other forms of authentication, right?
15:39
sbalneav: Were you ever able to make it to the common sense store?
15:40
Go in there and say ben-Nabiy in Hiddenite said you could get a free mate :)
15:40
They will take care of you
15:46
<cliebow>
bennabiy, yeah my openldap authenticated all users on the server and mounted homedirs and such..thanks to sbalneav
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15:51
<bennabiy>
What do I need to do to enable this?
15:51
it is using the nss_ldapd?
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16:00
<sbalneav>
bennabiy: I use the thin client model; so all my processes are running on the server. I just enable pam_ldap and nss_ldap on the server.
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16:29
<vmlintu>
bennabiy: we used pam/nss-ldapd before, but we have switched to sssd/pam_krb5 now. If you don't need kerberos for fat client nfs mounts, they both do the same..
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17:01
<bennabiy>
I would only be running 1 fat client, all else are thin clients
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18:24* vagrantc waves
18:24* vagrantc cheers that git-bzr has finally gotten useable.
18:25
<vagrantc>
although i haven't actually used it yet...
18:27
<Ryan52>
vagrantc: heh, which implementation?
18:28
there were like 5 last I tried to make sense of the mess.
18:29
<vagrantc>
Ryan52: it's part of git in debian jessie, and also in wheezy-backports
18:29
Ryan52: so i hope they picked the best one :)
18:58
<alkisg>
vagrantc, sbalneav: do you have time to chat about my next steps? I.e. always have a local user home (e.g. in /tmp/ltspxxx for true thin clients), start pulse as the user, have an ssh fifo for localapps/remoteapps...
19:09
<vagrantc>
alkisg: sure
19:09
<sbalneav>
Yup!
19:09
<alkisg>
Nice!
19:09* vagrantc waves to sbalneav
19:09
<sbalneav>
hey hey vagrantc
19:09
<alkisg>
So, we want a local home for .pulse etc
19:09
But we don't want to always use sshfs, do we?
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19:10
<sbalneav>
Well, for a true thin client scenario, I'd say no, personally.
19:11
<alkisg>
I agree. So we want a temporary home for .pulse, or whatever else udisks etc will need
19:11
Where does that go? /tmp? /var/run?
19:12
<sbalneav>
Why not under /home? Couldn't we just mount a 16M ramdisk on /home, and make use of pam_mkhomedir?
19:12
<vagrantc>
it would seem simpler to just have a local home under /home
19:13
<alkisg>
The most complex scenario I can think of, is to have true thin or fat sessions decided upon login
19:13
Now, suppose someone logs in in a fat session, where /home/username is mounted with sshfs or nfs
19:13
Then he logs out (or uses a different SCREENxx=ldm) and logs in in a true thin session
19:14
At that weird scenario /home isn't very available for ramdisks...
19:14
<vagrantc>
we, if only through neglect, have given up on supporting multiple ldm instances on a single thin client
19:15
it's made a lot of assumptions for the last several years
19:15
<alkisg>
I don't see any downsides on _not_ using /home/username for true thin clients though... are there any? except for code simplicity?
19:15
(which shouldn't be anything weird, just an LDM_HOME=/tmp/xxx
19:16
<vagrantc>
element of least surprise ... your homedir should be, you know, your homedir
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19:16
<sbalneav>
I agree.
19:16
<vagrantc>
although we're talking about some very surprising scenarios
19:17
<alkisg>
OK... so, /tmp/ltsp-username-xxx? Or /var/run/ltsp-gid-zzz ?
19:17
*uid
19:17* alkisg hasn't read the FHS recently :)
19:18
<vagrantc>
alkisg: so we can't just use home on the risk that they'll later log in as a fatclient or using localapps or something?
19:18
<alkisg>
Right
19:18
And we might also avoid the need for the extra ramdisk, if we reuse one
19:18
<vagrantc>
i'm not sure i'm convinced
19:18
<alkisg>
Isn't /var/run/ a ramdisk already?
19:19
<vagrantc>
well, with aufs/overlayfs, all the dirs are typically on a tmpfs
19:19
<alkisg>
Although I imagine we won't need anything big there, just a few temporary files by some applications like pulse, gvfs etc running locally
19:20
vagrantc: another scenario, FSTAB_0="mount /home via nfs", and then on login, select a true thin session
19:20
<vagrantc>
alkisg: so, we're not confident we can remove the homedir mount on subsequent loginn?
19:20
<alkisg>
Although... hmm.. that would work too
19:21
So. If we don't create a ramdisk, and just use the tmpfs that is already there, I don't see any harm done to use /home/username
19:21
<sbalneav>
+1 on nfs mount of home, personally.
19:21
<vagrantc>
i think we should support whatever arbitrary filesystems make sense for a homedir
19:22
<alkisg>
The cleanup phase, when the user exits, might be a bit tricky...
19:22
<vagrantc>
we shouldn't be tied to a specific homedir filesystem, or set of them ... though making some common ones use less manual configuration makes sense
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19:22
<alkisg>
On true thin client sessions, we want to remove /home/username, which will only contain .pulse etc
19:22
<vagrantc>
it seems like if we haven't cleaned up, we've got some ugly bugs
19:22
<alkisg>
But if /home/username was mounted via other means (sshfs, nfs), we don't want to remove it
19:23
<vagrantc>
ah, for a persistant /home mount, that would be bad.
19:23
can't we just use pam_mount for the homedirs, rather than mounting all of /home ?
19:24* alkisg doesn't get that part
19:24
<alkisg>
pam_mount is just one method to mount /home/username, right?
19:24
The user might mount that with any number of methods...
19:25
<sbalneav>
We're getting close to going back to the old Sun NFS automounter days :D
19:25
<alkisg>
Hehe
19:26
OK let's go to the next subject...
19:26
We do want to start pulse as the user, right?
19:26
<sbalneav>
Seems reasonable.
19:27
<alkisg>
That would allow switching screens and having different sound sources in each one
19:27
And also pulse recommends NOT using it in system mode...
19:28
<sbalneav>
Biggest reason to do it, IMHO
19:28
<alkisg>
I've done that as a proof of concept, PULSE_COOKIE needs to be transfered, nothing hard
19:28
Next. For client <=> server communication, we can avoid xprops and use a socket instead
19:28
(fifo)
19:29
E.g. client side: ssh server create-socket-and-listen-for-commands
19:29
server-side: echo command to socket
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19:29
<alkisg>
That should be ...wayland or console compatible, and we wouldn't need a .c file for its implementation
19:31
The listener should better be started from /etc/xdg/autostart, in order to have all the environment (DBUS_SESSION_ADDRESS etc) available
19:31
Does that sound reasonable?
19:31
<sbalneav>
yeah.
19:31
One of these days I really need to sit down and figure out dbus.
19:32
<alkisg>
And finally, about localapps... do we want to switch to using udisks, and if that's not easy enough, udisks-glue?
19:33
So that the local user (which should be considered "active" in logind) gets his devices automounted without any udev code from us?
19:33
*localdev, sorry
19:34
So that we drop the udev hooks, cdpinger, and only have some udisks hook for ltspfs[d]?
19:34
<vagrantc>
not familiar enough with udisks to know...
19:35
but i've heard a lot of skepticism about it working for our needs...
19:35
<alkisg>
Like what?
19:35
<vagrantc>
permissions issues, access to dbus, dunno. like i said, i'm not familiar with it at all.
19:35
<alkisg>
Suppose we're in a normal pc where everything is automounted, cdroms, usb sticks etc
19:36
<vagrantc>
stgraber: was it you menntioning problems with using udisks?
19:36
<alkisg>
Can ltspfs[d] work over the mounts in /media/xxx ?
19:36
<vagrantc>
ah.
19:36
that sounds like a more elegant approach.
19:36
but that doesn't really handle the auto-unmounting and whatnot, no?
19:37
<sbalneav>
One of the problems I was having with udisks was I wasn't getting properly auth'd with consolekit.
19:37
<alkisg>
udisks-glue is a small script that automounts everything, yeah
19:37
<vagrantc>
all these years, for better or worse, we've been teaching people they can just yank the usb stick after two seconds...
19:37
alkisg: but unmounting?
19:37
<alkisg>
That's server-side, an ltspfs issue,
19:37
<vagrantc>
no, it's client-side
19:37
<alkisg>
we can do that if we have an umount helper
19:38
<vagrantc>
client-side, it automatically UN-mounts after two seconds of inactivity
19:38
<alkisg>
So the users will see an unmount icon in nautilus etc
19:38
Then, the helper will notify the client (over the ssh fifo) to unmount the stick there too
19:38
<vagrantc>
but if we're leaving that to udisks, can we unmount it
19:39
<alkisg>
Wait. We're on a thin client with localdev. Nautilus runs server-side.
19:39
The user clicks on the unmount icon of nautilus
19:39
udisks runs on the client
19:39
<vagrantc>
yes, but the way it currently works has a "feature" that sounds like we won't support anymore...
19:39
<alkisg>
How will we notify the client, if not via an umount helper + the ssh fifo?
19:40
You mean the "sync every 2 seconds"?
19:40
<vagrantc>
it's not sync every two seconds, it's unmount after inactivity, but leave it mounted on the server side, and remount if activity is requested
19:41
so on the hardware level, it unmounts after two seconds of inactivity.
19:41
even if on a software level the mount still appears present
19:41
<sbalneav>
right.
19:41
<vagrantc>
that sounds like it's going to be hard to emulate
19:41
<alkisg>
Unmount instead of sync, to avoid journal entries?
19:42
If we want to unmount it every 2 seconds and then remount it when there's activity... I think udisks will get in our way, it won't help much...
19:43
OK, so, we postpone that part, and just write an udev rule to drop cdpinger for now?
19:43
<sbalneav>
Seems reasonable
19:44
<alkisg>
sbalneav: if you could look into that, you're much more familiar with udev than me... https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/+bug/1094998
19:44
<sbalneav>
k
19:45
<alkisg>
Thanks!
19:45
Those should keep me busy for a few weeks, thanks for the chat guys
19:47
<vagrantc>
glad to help
19:48
alkisg: if you've got any of it ready by this coming weekend, i should be able to upload it to debian
19:48
alkisg: you had that one patch almost ready?
19:48
<alkisg>
vagrantc: I committed the X01-localapps patch
19:49
<vagrantc>
ah, great.
19:49
<alkisg>
It's mostly a rewrite, so it needs testing, but I did do some tests of my own...
19:49
<vagrantc>
good, i'll give it some abuse too
19:49
<alkisg>
The old code had a few issues, but I couldn't find any issues at all in the latest code,
19:49
except of course if the LDAP username is so weird that it breaks the sed line...
19:50
<vagrantc>
that sounds notably better.
19:51* vagrantc uses it as an excuse to test git-bzr
19:51
<alkisg>
The best part is that on systems with many many groups, it should lower the execution time from 1+ minutes to 1- seconds...
19:51
As it only reads the groups it needs to, not all server groups
19:52
<vagrantc>
smart.
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20:35
<alkisg>
vagrantc, sbalneav: I'm still a little weary about `rm -rf $LDM_HOME` on true thin client sessions... if some user uses e.g. pam_mount to mount /home/username, and it stays mounted e.g. because of .gvfs, we might end up erasing it...
20:36
So I'm thinking of reusing /var/run/ldm-xauth-XXXXXXXXX for the "true thin session" user home
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20:36
<alkisg>
So e.g. /var/run/ltsp-XXXXXX will be equal to LDM_HOME, and it will contain .Xauthority, .pulse and whatever other temporary file we'll need
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21:04
<vagrantc>
alkisg: so actually using a different homedir?
21:08
<alkisg>
vagrantc: yes, it feels safer that way...
21:08
vagrantc: in that case, the user isn't supposed to have any local home at all anyways...
21:09
Or, I suppose we could put pulse etc in the temp dir, and completely ignore the user home, if it exists or not
21:09
Currently the code doesn't create a /home/username on true thin sessions
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21:26
<vagrantc>
alkisg: what about always mounting something?
21:26
the current code doesn't, but what if it did?
21:27
<alkisg>
There's some ram overhead, ...
21:27
...the kiosk mode might need a few more "ifs" there, ...
21:27
...maybe some security considerations, ...
21:28* alkisg can't think of anything else
21:32
<alkisg>
I think we could start with .pulse in the same dir as xauthority, and ignore LDM_HOME completely
21:32
If more files are needed in the future, we could revisit it...
21:32
*revise
21:33
<vagrantc>
hrm.
21:34* alkisg still wants to support 128mb ram clients in 14.04 :)
21:34
<alkisg>
Although I'm thinking of shipping a stripped-down debian chroot for true thin client installations...
21:40
'night :)
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22:26
<bennabiy>
for the LDAP professionals. My import worked... but I left out a couple fields that I wanted to populate. Can I do an ldif to just put those fields in without changing the others, or do I need to do something else? It would be a bit tedious to do it all by hand.
22:27
back later...
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