IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 9 September 2016   (all times are UTC)

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06:40
<alkisg>
!nbd-client
06:40
<ltsp>
nbd-client: To try mounting the NBD image from the client initramfs: nbd-client 192.168.67.1 -N /opt/ltsp/i386 /dev/nbd0
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13:04
<Daniel_n>
hi all.. can someone help me with a lisp cluster?
13:04
*ltsp cluster
13:07
is there a possibility to make a ltsp cluster high available, so that active terminal session (x over ssh) won't disconnect? or just loose their connection for a short period of time and auto reconnect without rebooting the thin client?
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13:25
<Daniel_n>
is there a possibility to make a ltsp cluster high available, so that active terminal session (x over ssh) won't disconnect? or just loose their connection for a short period of time and auto reconnect without rebooting the thin client?
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13:37
<||cw>
Daniel_n: you'd need to make each individual program you run on said cluster to be cluster-aware so that it can be highly available. so no. your best option for that is virtialization with some type of continuous availability system. I haven't kept up with that, but vmware's FT is the one I'm aware of, and it's expensive, and has limitations that it not worth it for most cases
13:39
you could certainly use some load balancing in front of an ltsp cluster to make client pick a server, but if one goes down all the client sessions will be started over on a new server
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14:19
<JuJuBee>
SO I biuld an image yesterday and am trying to use nano in the chroot and it is not installed. When I try apt-get install nano, I get t his.... Reading package lists... Done
14:19
Building dependency tree
14:19
Reading state information... Done
14:19
E: Unable to locate package nano
14:19
I copied the sources.list from the server into the chroot
14:21
<Daniel_n>
||cw: isn't it possible to reconnect the sockets to the new cluster node after the initial socket connection gets lost?
14:22
so there is just a little gap while reconnecting
14:24
<alkisg>
Daniel_n: your main worries are for issues on the client, on the server, or both? If it's for issues on the client (e.g. reboots, disconnects) then you can also have a look at x2go, which resumes sessions properly
14:24
JuJuBee: run apt update
14:27
<JuJuBee>
alkisg, omg, totally forgot to update db... Thanks.
14:28
<Daniel_n>
alkisg: e.g. one thin client is connected to cluster node-1 and node-2 is passive... the x over ssh session of client-1 ist started on node-1.. now i perform a failover (reboot node-1 or stop pacemaker/corosync) the resources(DRBD, IPaddr) are switching over to node-2.. while doing this, i watch the netstat -tupn ... there i see, that the socket connection is disconnected from node-1 and of course ist not connected new to node-2... n
14:28
<||cw>
Daniel_n: you do realize that reconnecting to a new server means starting up a new clean login session right?
14:28
<Daniel_n>
client, i am not able
14:28
yes
14:29
<||cw>
ok, and the IP gets moved to node2?
14:29
<Daniel_n>
yes
14:29
<alkisg>
Daniel_n: what kind of availabily is that, if you lose your running programs?
14:30
<||cw>
it's likely confusing the client, you'd need to somehow bootstrap the nbd session on the server
14:30
or switch to nfs
14:31
<alkisg>
I'm not aware of any technology that allows someone to have programs running to serverA and then have them to serverB automatically, except for virtual machine beaming, and that of course requires that you know that serverA is going to have a down time
14:31
<JuJuBee>
How come tab line completion does not work in the chroot?
14:31
<||cw>
you're basically ripping the disk out of the client and not replacing it, leaving it without only knowing what it has cached
14:31
<Daniel_n>
mhh :-D
14:31
<alkisg>
nbd is read-only, it's not that hard to make it reconnect to another server
14:32
<||cw>
alkisg: but is going to be seamless?
14:32
<alkisg>
But running programs with data in RAM... that's not easily accomplished. How can you read RAM after crash?
14:32
||cw: yes, there are ways to achieve that
14:32
<Daniel_n>
yes i think thats the main prob..
14:32
<||cw>
I've seen clients have to restarted just from having their network cable unplugged for a bit
14:32
<alkisg>
Daniel_n: and that's why it's not really doable, and you should be looking to implement something else :)
14:33
||cw: yes the stock nbd-client had issues like that. Not anymore, it can work after disconnecting the cable, but it doesn't support switching servers, as other clients do.
14:34
<Daniel_n>
but the loss of the connection is not the main problem.. it would be ok, if the screen blacks out or something like that..
14:35
maybe sth like hyper-v failover clustering is easier to implement :-D
14:35
but what HA is it when the session gets aborted ?!
14:35
the servers are HA, but the sessions aren't..
14:36
<Hyperbyt1>
mhmmm
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14:37
<Daniel_n>
so if people are working at a company with terminal servers.. and one of the cluster nodes goes down.. the employees get disconnected.. i don't think that this is a sort of HA :-D
14:37
<alkisg>
Daniel_n: if a program crashes on one pc, you can't resume it on another pc, because there's no technology that can read crashed ram
14:37
<Daniel_n>
yes thats of course right ;-)
14:37
<alkisg>
There are some programs or protocols that are stateless, you can only do that for such programs
14:38
So you can't resume sessions from a crashed server, anywhere else, either on that server or on another server
14:38
You'll have to start a new session
14:39
<Daniel_n>
ok that makes sense... so the only way, to make a terminal server session HA is virtualization e.g hyper-v or kvm
14:39
yes that would be ok also :-D
14:39
<alkisg>
No, you cannot do that with hyper-v or kvm either
14:39
<Daniel_n>
so how could i achieve it? :-D
14:39
<alkisg>
You can't
14:40
You need to look at other things that can be made more available
14:40
<Daniel_n>
isnt there no way to make a HA ltsp cluster?!
14:40
<alkisg>
Like, quickly starting a new session, or minimizing the client down time etc
14:41
<Daniel_n>
yes that'd be a nice solution
14:41
<alkisg>
Daniel_n: I don't know of any way at all in computers to make the HA that you are asking, with or without ltsp
14:41
So you need to minimize your expectations from computers
14:41
<Daniel_n>
okay... forget rescuing crashed sessions :-D
14:41
<alkisg>
Right
14:42
After that, there are many ways to have more availability
14:42
<Daniel_n>
okay.. then: how could i achieve quickly restarting new sessions after a failover in a ltsp cluster? ;-)
14:42
<alkisg>
What part failed in your example?
14:43
<Daniel_n>
power went off :-D
14:43
<alkisg>
In the server or in the client?
14:43
<Daniel_n>
cluster node-1
14:43
<alkisg>
The cluster node is a server or a client?
14:43
<Daniel_n>
server
14:43
sorry :-D
14:43
<alkisg>
The client is a thin client or a fat client?
14:43
<||cw>
what your wanting I think is Continuous Availability, not High Availability. High just means it's down for as little as possible
14:43
<Daniel_n>
thin
14:44
<alkisg>
OK then you press alt+ctrl+backspace on the client to kill the session, if it hasn't been already killed,
14:44
and the display manager (ldm) selects the next available server to login to
14:44
<||cw>
for Continuous you need something to synchronously copy all process, ram, and state info to the standby, which often requires the application to be aware of it
14:46
<Daniel_n>
||cw: yes you are right.. that was in my mind.. but i think it is to hard to make it
14:46
alkisg: this sounds like a nice solution...
14:47
<||cw>
it is quite hard. which is why vmware can charge so much for it
14:47
<Daniel_n>
just for better understanding... my "thin client" is a raspberry pi 3 with some data on the sd card.. (this is a thin client, isnt it? :-D )
14:48
<||cw>
thin means the user session is on the server, fat means the user session is on the client. whether or not there's a local disk isn't really important
14:48
<alkisg>
A raspberry can be either a thin client (processes running on the server) or a fat (locally)
14:49
<Daniel_n>
okay.. thin client
14:49
<||cw>
also pi3 can have a local disk or not. pi2 requires a local disk
14:50
<alkisg>
||cw: ? do pi's have that difference?!
14:50
Don't pi3's also require a local sd card?
14:50
<||cw>
yes, only the pi3 supports native network boot
14:50
<Daniel_n>
pxe also
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14:50
<Daniel_n>
pi2 doest support pxe i think
14:50
<||cw>
https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/pi-3-booting-part-ii-ethernet-all-the-awesome/
14:51
<alkisg>
They managed to implement proxy dhcp in rom? coool!
14:51
(client, of course)
14:52
Is that for new Pi3's that are going to be shipped in the f uture?
14:52
Or is there a way to flash existing roms?
14:52
<||cw>
I think all pi3s
14:52
<Daniel_n>
when i turn off the ltsp server which the client is connected to (ipaddress switches over to node-2), anyway there is a gui on the thin client.. i see my terminals which i opened before... ping is working... but if i want to save e.g. an open file (nano) says "socket is not connected"..
14:52
<||cw>
https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/bootmodes/net_tutorial.md
14:53
<alkisg>
Cool. /me waves, later...
14:53
<Daniel_n>
if i reboot the pi, it will connect to the "new" ltsp and it works fine
14:54
<||cw>
Daniel_n: you mean localapp terminals?
14:55
or? save where?
14:55
<Daniel_n>
no saving the file in my home directory (ltsp user chrooted)
14:57
<||cw>
more specific....
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14:57
<||cw>
more specific....
14:57
<Daniel_n>
ok
14:57
<||cw>
like, sshfs mounted local?
14:57
and localapps or not?
14:57
<Daniel_n>
thin client connects to the ltsp server (node-1)
14:58
<||cw>
shutting off the server means your screen would freeze otherwise
14:59
<Daniel_n>
ltsp node-1 has mounted a DRBDevice (on which the /home directory of all ltsp users are)
14:59
when turning off node-1 the IP and the DRBDevice were switched over to node-2 directly..
14:59
and the pi doesn't freeze
15:01
<||cw>
are you sure you're running thin?
15:01
<Daniel_n>
but if i then try to open a new terminal.. the screen went black (but i have a mouse :-D )
15:01
http://pinet.org.uk
15:01
<||cw>
mouse cursor is rendered locally
15:02
<Daniel_n>
i think its thin
15:04
i am using PiNet, based on ltsp
15:04
on the sd card are just some boot files and config files
15:05
about 30MB
15:05
<||cw>
that doens't mean it's not a fat client
15:06
the difference is that thin clients the apps run on the server, so if the server crashes, so do the apps. fat clients are still diskless, but the apps run on the client, which means anything in ram keeps working
15:06
<Daniel_n>
mhh but i am only using the terminal...
15:07
and the terminal window stays open
15:07
<||cw>
run a ps on the server, if you don't see the processes that are open on the client, then you're runnign fat
15:07
for thin, the window would stay open, but the terminal would no longer respond
15:07
<Daniel_n>
ok i see.. i check that
15:08
<||cw>
the server is only sending X drawing commands to the client, if it doens't send a new command, what's on the screen stays there
15:10
<Daniel_n>
on the raspian image is minecraft.. so if i start it, it should appear in server ps right?
15:11
<||cw>
ok, if minecraft is running well, you are almost certainly running fat mode, or at least minecraft is running as a localapp
15:17
<Daniel_n>
mhh :-D i don't see any of my opened apps :-D neither server ps or client ps
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15:20
<Daniel_n>
okay... forgot ps -a ;)
15:25
but if i open minecraft i don't see it in server or client ps -a
15:26
||cw: at client ps -a there are only some ltsp-localappsd and ltsp-remoteapps ldm sh ssh sh ps kinit xautowait processes
15:27
<||cw>
try ps aux
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15:31
<Daniel_n>
|cw: ps aux doesn't show anything at the pi
15:31
||cw: ps aux doesn't show anything at the pi
15:32
at the server i see the sessions of my ltsp user
15:34
<||cw>
ok, so then on the client, when the server stops, these apps stop accepting input right?
15:34
<Daniel_n>
yes
15:34
<||cw>
then I don't understand what issue you described
15:35
<Daniel_n>
:-D
15:36
it has to be fat client.. i turned off both servers... minecraft is still running
15:37
<||cw>
or localapps...
15:37
maybe ps auxww ?
15:37
which should show the full command line, possibly needed to see localapps
15:38
I don't have any localapp configs here so I'm nto sure
15:39
<Daniel_n>
ps aux ont shows warning: bad ps syntax
15:40
only
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18:23
<Claudio_>
I'm experience of very slow client on edubuntu.
18:24
Somebody can help me ?
18:26
<vagrantc>
Claudio_: if your hardware is reasonable, fat clients may work.
18:26
Claudio_: other options are to use LDM_DIRECTX=true
18:27
!directx | echo Claudio_
18:27
<ltsp>
Claudio_ directx: If you want to turn off encryption to the workstation, which will speed up performance at the cost of security, you need to specify LDM_DIRECTX=True in your lts.conf file. Type !docs in IRC to get a link to the current documentation
18:30
<Claudio_>
I can see on server that after any click on client the network of server work at full load for many seconds... and the client show the new windows in5-10 second.
18:31
My server is a core i5 with 4cores and 4GB of Ram.
18:32
and clients are dual core with almost 1GB of ram.
18:33
Now I'm upgrading the server to version 16.04
18:41
<vagrantc>
sounds like you should be able to do fat clients
18:41
!fat
18:41
<ltsp>
I do not know about 'fat', but I do know about these similar topics: 'fatclients', 'fatclient-printers', 'fat-printers', 'epoptes-fat-clients', 'fat-internal-disks', 'fat-passwd', 'fat-sudo'
18:41
<vagrantc>
!fatclients | echo Claudio_
18:41
<ltsp>
Claudio_ fatclients: You may find some info about the Ubuntu/LTSP implementation of fat clients at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients
18:41
<vagrantc>
i don't know ifk you are already
18:42
Claudio_: are all your clients slow, or just a particular client?
18:45
<Claudio_>
For me is the first experience.... Trying with two different client but same result...
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20:28
<alkisg>
!ltsp-pnp | echo Claudio_:
20:28
<ltsp>
Claudio_: ltsp-pnp: ltsp-pnp is an alternative (upstream) method to maintain LTSP installations for thin and fat clients that doesn't involve chroots: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
20:28
<alkisg>
This is a good tutorial for a first experience with ltsp ^
20:28
Easy to set up and takes advantage of the client hardware so that it goes fast
20:32
vagrantc: ||cw told me that raspberry pi 3 supports pxe booting without an sd card! https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/bootmodes/net.md
20:32
It even supports proxydhcp...
20:35
<vagrantc>
wow!
20:36
i hadn't bothered with them yet, but if it supports network boot out of the box, that's something worth looking at
20:40
<alkisg>
If only they were x86 and fast and supported flash and wine... :)
20:41
<||cw>
sorta out of the box... you do have to boot off an SD once and set the network boot option
20:42
haven't you heard? flash is dead :P
20:43
<alkisg>
Sure, except we have 10+ gb of flash-based educational software and no millions of $$ to hire programmers to rewrite them in html 5...
20:43
||cw: set the network boot option where? does it have something like a cmos?
20:44
<||cw>
the OTP
20:44
https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/bootmodes/net_tutorial.md
20:46
TLDR; you add program_usb_boot_mode=1 to the config.txt and reboot, then vcgencmd otp_dump will show the updated setting, then you can power off and take the card out.
20:46* alkisg can't find what the otp initials mean
20:46
<||cw>
that link isn' thte best written howto I've ever found, but I'm told it works
20:47
One Time Programmable
20:47
I don't know if that means you can't turn it back off
20:49
<vagrantc>
hah, the tutorial explains how to configure for NFS root ...
20:50
<alkisg>
I think it does mean that the bits can be written to only once, like the warranty bit
20:50
if so, once you go netbooting, you can't go back.... hehe nice way to push ltsp :P
20:52
<vagrantc>
"sudo echo | sudo tee /etc/dnsmasq.conf" awesome.
20:53* alkisg prefers to start the instructions with "sudo -i" :)
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21:16
<||cw>
is that first sudo even needed?
21:16* vagrantc gives ||cw a prize!
21:17
<||cw>
yeah... like i said... not the best written
21:17* vagrantc nods
21:18
<||cw>
looks fixed int he github version <alkisg> if so, once you go netbooting, you can't go back.... hehe nice way to push ltsp :P
21:18
er
21:18
https://github.com/raspberrypi/documentation/blob/master/hardware/raspberrypi/bootmodes/net_tutorial.md
21:28* vagrantc wonders if the network booting supports initrd
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