IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 27 October 2009   (all times are UTC)

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07:12
<tarzeau>
hello
07:13
i'm in contact with a school in zurich that wants to push ltsp for schools in switzerland
07:13
he can also produce cases and assembled computers from taiwan for cheap (we got some examples here)
07:13
that we'll use as the successor to the alix machines (www.pcengines.ch)
07:14
we use those ltsp clients with linux, windows and mac os x logins (currently with ctrl-alt-f7,f8,f9), for mac we use http://www.coderebel.com/products/irapp-terminal-server/
07:15
i just saw the "bash text menu for linux or windows, yuck for ltsp 4... not sure if i'm going to write a mouse gui chooser for all three, and maybe other stuff"
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07:17
<tarzeau>
panthera: would you be interested on working on software stuff like that?
07:17
i also know some other teachers around switzerland, that i have good contacts to (baetterchende, BE), plus some IT companies (SO, ZH, BS)
07:18* tarzeau makes some photos of the new thin client...
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07:36
<cliebow>
sbalneav:uneventful trip home?
07:37
<scottmaccal>
hmm. Now that I've met people in person I have learn their nicks.
07:38
That's hard because I have trouble just remembering names!
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07:47
<cliebow>
scottmaccal, this is chuck...booted to live cd but havnt gotten hd to mount as hfsplus or ext3
07:51
<stgraber>
hey scottmaccal
07:52
<cliebow>
stgraber, howdy Stephane!
07:53
<stgraber>
hi cliebow
07:53* cliebow cliebow hopes he spelled correctly
07:53
<stgraber>
you did
07:53
<cliebow>
stgraber: a karmic mac install is prob a hfsplus filesystem,do you think?
07:54
fdisk shows appl_unux_svr2
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07:57
<scottmaccal>
hey all.
07:58
cool
07:58
that helps.
07:59
hmm. Well I'm off to get an LTSP server up and going.
07:59
<cliebow>
9~)
08:00
close enough i suppose
08:07
<IHS_Volunteer>
older ATI cards work great, tridents and s3's, not so much. Intel stuff has some bugs on a few older systems, but not all. SOme of the newer ones act the worst. Most of these work fine with ubuntu running directly on the machine. :/
08:07
newer as in middle of the P4's reign.
08:09
I don't think the 233mhz Pentium MMXs would work great with ubuntu directly on the machine, though.
08:14
<Appiah>
I have a strange problem, Mounting USB key/hdd. Works sometimes , sometimes it dont
08:14
what should I look for when troubleshooting this?
08:16
<IHS_Volunteer>
what permissions are set for the user?
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08:17
<Appiah>
When I put in the USB stick, I can write to it , delete from it. eject it , insert it again and it might not pop up
08:17
this is on a thin client btw
08:19
<IHS_Volunteer>
I have that on my desktop sometimes, so it may not be a ltsp specific thing. Is FUSE and access external storage devices automatically set to allowed in user privileges? (might be something else on non-ubuntu setups)
08:21
<cyberorg>
Appiah, udevadm monitor on local terminal
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08:24
<Appiah>
hmm
08:24
never used that before
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08:51
<sbalneav>
Morning all
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08:54
<scottmaccal>
good morning.
08:55
<cliebow>
sbalneav!!!!!!!
08:56
<Gadi>
hey, sbalneav - did you squash those 2 bugs u were going to look at at bts?
08:56
I think one was the chown() in lbmount
08:57
and I forget the other
08:57
:)
08:57
<sbalneav>
Good morning scottmaccal, cliebow. Recovered yet?
08:58
<cliebow>
not yet...and i stayed away from the sauce..
08:58
<sbalneav>
Gadi: I've worked on them. The 32/64 bit problem's an issue with size_t being one size on one and one on the other.
08:59
<Gadi>
ah, right - that was the other one
08:59
;)
08:59
<sbalneav>
Everywhere there's use of a size_t, I need to define an ACTUAL 32 bit unsigned int, assign the size to that, and transmit that across the wire.
09:00
seeing as how the size (the way we use it) will always be <= BLKSIZE (2k), I'm not too worried about loss of precision :)
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09:00
<jammcq>
good morning friends
09:00
<sbalneav>
so I'm grinding through the code on that.
09:00
<Gadi>
Im guessing the lbmount one is as easy as adding an else() in mkdir_safe()?
09:00
<sbalneav>
!j
09:00
<cliebow>
scottmaccal, that g4 wouldnt mount hd after it installed just fine..even natively..trying to reunstall now..this laptop was ont that wouldnt image(which is why i have it)..so maybe it is borked..
09:00
<ltspbot>
sbalneav: "j" is jammcq!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
09:01
<jammcq>
sbalneav: Scotty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
09:01
<Gadi>
and in the else, doing the chown
09:01
<cliebow>
jammcq:good trip home?
09:01
<sbalneav>
Gadi: yeah, should be that simple.
09:01
<jammcq>
cliebow: yep. great trip. in total, we drove almost 2400 miles
09:01
<Gadi>
actually
09:01
<cliebow>
Holy...
09:01
<Gadi>
we could just change the mkdir(dir,750) to mkdir(dir,700)
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09:01
<jammcq>
cliebow: we went up into the observation deck on the bridge in Belfast
09:02
<Gadi>
a single digit change
09:02
:)
09:02
<cliebow>
ok cool,,in Bucksport..then
09:02
<ogra>
Gadi, doesnt work
09:02
<sbalneav>
I think the mount() call decides to impose it's own perms on the mount.
09:02
<scottmaccal>
hi sbalneav. Were you at LTSP by the sea?
09:02
<jammcq>
cliebow: yeah Bucksport
09:02
<cliebow>
that old bridge looked so massive before and now looks so puny
09:03
<ogra>
Gadi, lbmount is suid ... so the dir is always root owned
09:03
<jammcq>
yep, especially when you are above it looking down at it
09:03
<Gadi>
I see
09:03
<scottmaccal>
cliebow: bummer about the mac.
09:03
<Gadi>
we need the chown after the mount
09:03
<ogra>
(i wonder how many times we had that discussion before :P )
09:03
<sbalneav>
scottmaccal: Yeah, I was the one with the trout princess, and you were the fellow with the cute kid! :)
09:03
<jammcq>
ogra: HEY
09:03
<cliebow>
i had a day s worth of honeydos
09:03
<ogra>
yo jammcq
09:03
<sbalneav>
sbalneav = Scott Balneaves
09:03
<Gadi>
ogra: and yet it remains unfixed
09:03
:P
09:04
<ogra>
Gadi, its not fixable by design ...
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09:04
<ogra>
we would need to redesign the whole setup
09:04
<jammcq>
scottmaccal: did you lose a jacket at BTS ?
09:04
<scottmaccal>
jammcq: year.
09:04
yeah
09:04
<Gadi>
ogra: why cant you change ownership of the directory after its mounted?
09:04
<jammcq>
heh
09:04
<ogra>
Gadi, once scotty gets dbus going, we can use polkit and friends
09:04
<scottmaccal>
they found though. will pick it up at some point.
09:04
<jammcq>
scottmaccal: it's still there. David Lloyd has it
09:04
<Gadi>
thats what the workaround does
09:04
<jammcq>
cool
09:04
<Gadi>
we just need to do it in lbmount
09:05
<scottmaccal>
I always do that.
09:05
I can't leave a hotel without leaving something.
09:05
Any place for that matter.
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09:06
<scottmaccal>
sbalneav: I missed the trout princess story!
09:06
<ogra>
its videotaped :)
09:06
<scottmaccal>
I came in after it I think.
09:06
<jammcq>
scottmaccal: you can hear it again next year
09:06
<scottmaccal>
orga: awesome.
09:07
cool.
09:08
<sbalneav>
and the year after that, and the year after that....
09:08
<scottmaccal>
heh
09:08
<sbalneav>
There'll always be someone new who HASN'T heard the story before.
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09:09
<scottmaccal>
sbalneav: I am trouble trying to put a face to you nick?
09:09
What was your real name?
09:09
<sbalneav>
Scott Balneaves
09:09
<scottmaccal>
Ah. Yes.
09:09
The other Scott.
09:09
<Appiah>
does a kernel update on the server affect the LTSP envoirment at all? Do I need to rebuild the client images etc?
09:09
<ogra>
/whois sbalneav
09:09
<sbalneav>
Big Guy, loud, mustache, Canadian :)
09:09
<ogra>
^^^ helps ;)
09:09
<scottmaccal>
There was just one beside my self. Right?
09:09
<sbalneav>
Yup!
09:10
<scottmaccal>
Oh. Cool.
09:10
Two cute kids.
09:10
yep. got it.
09:10
<sbalneav>
I'm Scott[0] on this project, and now you're Scott[1] :)
09:10
<scottmaccal>
sweet!
09:10
<sbalneav>
for scott in Scotts:
09:10
scott++
09:11
<scottmaccal>
Yeah, I never laughed so hard as I did last night in a long time.
09:11
funny stuff.
09:12
<sbalneav>
Yeah, we're an eclectic group of misfits :)
09:12
<jammcq>
yeah, the "Nerdy Dozen"
09:12
<sbalneav>
lol
09:13* sbalneav listens to Steely Dan's "Gaucho"
09:15
<cliebow>
The Trout Princess alterego
09:16cliebow is now known as squarepeg
09:16
<squarepeg>
x
09:16
<jammcq>
y
09:17
<squarepeg>
cliebow tries new nick..just for the hell of it
09:17
<jammcq>
it's a nice one
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09:17
<squarepeg>
better than round hole i guess
09:17* scottmaccal 'backing-up server so it can be blown-away for LTSP use'
09:20
<Gadi>
hmm... if(!status) { chown(path2, uidReal, "root"); } near the end of root_mounter()
09:20
sbalneav: what dya think?
09:20
er, maybe fchown
09:20
instead of chown
09:20
<jammcq>
squarepeg++
09:21
<scottmaccal>
should I wait until U 9.10 is released and install that or go for U 9.04?
09:25
<sbalneav>
Gadi: Yeah, that's probably where I'll stick it.
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09:29
<sbalneav>
scottmaccal: At this point, you might as well wait the two days, and install 9.10
09:29
That way, you'll get all the latest bling
09:33
<scottmaccal>
sbalneav: cool. thank you.
09:34
<johnny>
i'm ready to upgrade to karmic at the store..
09:34
we're still on intrepid
09:41
<sbalneav>
scottmaccal: You could just go for karmic NOW, it's pretty much frozen.
09:42
<johnny>
how do you get karmic how the easiest way?
09:42
i think i might start it tonight
09:43
<scottmaccal>
hmm. I think I'll go for it then.
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09:44
<scottmaccal>
'off to begin LTSP install'
09:45
<sbalneav>
ogra: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/107526
09:45
The "rebooting the server screws up my thin clients" bug :)
09:46
<ogra>
yeah
09:46
<sbalneav>
Do the fixes to NBD for reconnect more or less "fix" this?
09:46
<ogra>
any idea how to solve it ?
09:46
i doubt it
09:46
stgraber, surely knows more though
09:47
<sbalneav>
Well, I was just thinking, perhaps once we get dbus "working", maybe poweroff events on the server could push out to the clients as well.
09:48
That's about the BEST you could hope for.
09:48
<Gadi>
The last guy's comment seems to be ideal
09:48
we can just expand stgraber's monitor daemon
09:49
<sbalneav>
Impractical.
09:49
<Gadi>
(and make sure we have all of ldm_dialog's dependencies in RAM
09:49
why?
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09:49
<sbalneav>
What do people expect, if they're sitting at the desktop, and the SERVER goes away, that SOMEHOW, you're going to migrate elsewhere?
09:50
<Gadi>
no, but maybe its intermittent
09:50
<sbalneav>
your gnome-session and all programs just dies.
09:50
<Gadi>
if the server goes down, it should wait for nbd to come back
09:51
<sbalneav>
what about your session?
09:51
So NBD comes back, big deal.
09:51
<Gadi>
your session should die naturally, and when nbd comes back, ldm should go back to login screen
09:51
<sbalneav>
Or, just shut down the terminal cleanly.
09:51
<Gadi>
but, at least the user knows whats going on
09:51
<sbalneav>
which is what I'm suggesting.
09:52
<Gadi>
if you have a lot of users, its probably best to let the user know what happened before taking action
09:52
otherwise, you generate a lot of support calls
09:53
<sbalneav>
If you've got a lot of users logged into an LTSP server, and you're rebooting the server underneath them, you're going to ask them to log off ANYWAY.
09:53
<Gadi>
the admin may not be actively rebooting it
09:53
maybe there was a power failure
09:53
or a power supply died
09:54* ogra is completely in the "properly shut down" camp here
09:54
<Gadi>
proper shutdown is fine
09:54
<ogra>
and for a fix on both sides
09:54
<Gadi>
but, can the user be notified?
09:54
<ogra>
a dbus trigger as well and monitoring on the client side
09:54
<Gadi>
"Connection to server lost. Shutting down..."
09:54
<ogra>
s/and/as/
09:55
<sbalneav>
WHAT EXATLY is going to notify the clients in the case of the server dying unexpectedly? :)
09:55
<Gadi>
also, whatever we do, it should be over-rideable
09:55
because maybe someone has a separate boot server from app server
09:55
<ogra>
sbalneav, the nbd monitor
09:55
<Gadi>
and maybe if one app server goes down, it is set to connect to another
09:56
we must be sure to distinguish between the case of the app server going down and the boot server
09:56* sbalneav throws up hands.
09:56
<Gadi>
if we use nbd monitor, then it is a boot server issue
09:56
<sbalneav>
Not my bug anymore
09:56
<Gadi>
if we use dbus, it is an app server issue
09:57
<ogra>
nbd monitor just needs a timeout addded and call "poweroff -f" if the server doesnt respond in time
09:57
<Gadi>
with adjustable time
09:57
I agree
09:58
<ogra>
not sure you can do anything about notification though
09:58
<Gadi>
in that case, I would say thats fine
09:58
<ogra>
you dont have a fs anymore, only stuff currently in ram will work
09:58
<Gadi>
in the case of someone actively turning off the app server, there should be user notification prior to shutdown
09:58
<ogra>
which might mean poweroff migth not work either
09:59
<Gadi>
and then a dbus-initiated client shutdown
09:59
<ogra>
right, though that needs deep testing
09:59
<Gadi>
you can always make a call to: echo o >/proc/sysrq-trigger
09:59
<ogra>
hmm, indeed
09:59
<Gadi>
it doesnt need to be clean in the nbd case
10:00
only in the dbus case
10:00
<ogra>
thats clear
10:00
the question is if you can actually get to the echo or something is missing in advance already
10:00
thats what i mean by "deep testing" :)
10:00
<Gadi>
ah
10:01
<stgraber>
monitor_nbd is started before X so it doesn't know about Xauthority and stuff like that
10:01
<Gadi>
usually works for me
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10:01
<PMantis>
sbalneav: This looks like yours: http://www.woot.com/
10:01
<ogra>
stgraber, X isnt involved
10:01
<Gadi>
when I have a client whose nbd is pulled out from under it
10:01
<stgraber>
also, we'd really need to make sure that's not just a boot server failure, I actually use monitor_nbd for roaming from a server to the other in case of failure (with hearbeat moving the IP address)
10:02
ogra: if we want to notify the user, then it is
10:02
<ogra>
stgraber, i doubt we can if the filesystem is gone
10:02
you would have to build some static tool that gets preloaded into ram
10:03
<PMantis>
nbd doesn't seems to be as resilient as nfs
10:04
nbd is faster though
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10:04
<Gadi>
stgraber: do you use dhcp-failover on those servers, or just heartbeat?
10:04
<stgraber>
PMantis: with NFS you'd simply get stuck in I/O wait, with NBD you can still access whatever data is in your local cache
10:04
<ogra>
PMantis, NFS cant properly deal with union mouting ...
10:05
so even if it is more resilent, your rottfs will likely die
10:05
*rootfs
10:05
<PMantis>
Hmmm, so unionfs and tempfs over nfs doesn't work?
10:05
<sbalneav>
Isn't that being fixed at some point? They've been talking about it for years...
10:05
<ogra>
right
10:05
<stgraber>
Gadi: we have load-balanced DHCP, then a tftp on each dhcp, then two other servers for nbd (with load-balancing and heartbeat for failover), then all of the ltsp-cluster infrastructure loadbalanced + failover
10:05
<ogra>
sbalneav, it might of once the kernel gets native mount --union support instead of using a third party fs module
10:06
<PMantis>
ogra: I have a client that runs multiple thin clients. Some are LTSP 4.2u2 with NFS root, and other LTSP 5 with ndb root. If we reboot the server, the ndb clients usually lock up. The NFS clients, simply re-query XDMCP and move along on its merry way.
10:07
<ogra>
PMantis, yes, nfs doesnt use union mounts
10:07
<PMantis>
That first "client' should likely say "customer" to be clearer.
10:08
<ogra>
if you have a union mount and the readonly part of your fs goes away you are in trouble
10:08
nfs uses bind mounted dirs in a tmpfs instead of union mounts
10:08
setting that up during boot makes it so slow
10:08
<Gadi>
stgraber: how do you loadbalance the nbd servers?
10:08
<ogra>
an optimal solution would be nfs and union mounts
10:09
<Gadi>
won't heartbeat be a one-or-the-other, if it migrates IP?
10:09
<PMantis>
ogra: Yeah, jammcq said that LTSP5 on nfs was really slow...
10:13
<cyberorg>
anyone exploring aoe at BTS?
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10:17
<sbalneav>
aoe?
10:18
<cyberorg>
sbalneav, http://en.opensuse.org/LTSP/AoE
10:18
<ogra>
alert on emergency ?
10:18
heh, another network block device implementation ?
10:18
isnt iscsi and nbd enough ?
10:19
<johnny>
cyberorg, i think if you want that.. you're gonna have to do it by yourself..
10:19
altho perhaps dracut will sort it natively
10:19
<stgraber>
Gadi: each tftp points to an nbd server, each dhcp points to a tftp and dhcp is load-balanced
10:19
<johnny>
cyberorg, will suse use dracut or upstart?
10:19
<cyberorg>
johnny, we are using it since almost a year now :)
10:20
<johnny>
cyberorg, probably not in a distro agnostic way then..
10:20
<stgraber>
cyberorg: AFAIK AOE doesn't work through routers as it's at the ethernet level
10:20
<cyberorg>
johnny, it is kiwi's implementation, and kiwi is distro independent thing
10:20
stgraber, yes i think you are right there
10:21
<johnny>
cyberorg, will you use dracut or upstart??
10:21
<cyberorg>
johnny, dracut?
10:21
<johnny>
guess not..
10:21
distro agnostic initramfs infrastructure
10:21
<sbalneav>
cyberorg: Well, seeing as how no-one from OpenSUSE ever seems to feel the need to submit any patches or take active part in upstream development, I'd say no, we haven't looked at aoe.
10:21
<johnny>
fedora and ubuntu use it
10:21
cyberorg, ask somebody.. i'd be interested to know
10:21
cyberorg, how about upstart init system then?
10:21
<cyberorg>
sbalneav, we do not patch ltsp, all ltsp packages are as they are upstream
10:22
<Gadi>
stgraber: if each tftp points to a different nbd server, why does heartbeat migrate the IP?
10:22Selveste1__ has joined #ltsp
10:22
<Gadi>
stgraber: unless it multihimes the IP?
10:22
*multihomes
10:23
<sbalneav>
But you're obviously MODIFYING how you use LTSP since you "are using it for almost a year now"
10:23
<johnny>
cyberorg, answer my question :)
10:23
<cyberorg>
johnny, if i knew :)
10:23
http://en.opensuse.org/Boot_time
10:24
johnny, we already do a lot of optimization using preload, init script running parallel etc
10:24
<johnny>
/me guesses not then
10:24
too bad
10:24
<cyberorg>
every time devs start to look at other mechanism and settle for what we already have as not much improvement is seen
10:25
but who knows
10:25
<ogra>
johnny, dracut or upstart ?
10:25
did you mean s/upstarts/initramfs-tools/ ?
10:25
<johnny>
i asked about both..
10:25
<ogra>
ah
10:25
i thought it was an or question
10:25
<johnny>
cyberorg, but this mechanism is used by multiple distros already.. that is the difference
10:25
<cyberorg>
http://en.opensuse.org/Ubuntu_and_Upstart
10:26
<ogra>
lol
10:26
cyberorg, in 7.04 up to 9.04 upstart onbly replaced the init binary
10:26
<johnny>
this is the part that is changing "Since Upstart currently just imitates SysV init, there was no performance improvement when booting Suse with Upstart instead of the SysV init. "
10:26
since ubuntu and fedora will stop doing that eventually
10:27
<ogra>
using measures based on that is the biggest nonsense i have seen in a while
10:27
<cyberorg>
johnny, as i told you that subject is researched before every major openSUSE release :)
10:27
<ogra>
with 9.10 all the core initscripts are gone
10:28
with 10.04 everything will be upstart events
10:28
<johnny>
ogra, hopefully they will revisit it after next time..
10:28
<cyberorg>
http://en.opensuse.org/BrainStorming_Prague#Init_system_too_complex.2C_full_of_hacks
10:28
<ogra>
johnny, it will be going on in 10.04
10:28
<johnny>
ogra, i mean suse
10:28
<ogra>
it was just important to do the critical steps in karmic
10:28
the task is way to big to do it in one release
10:29
<johnny>
it will be amazing to have suse/mandrake/debian all using it..
10:29
and all using dracut. but probably too much to hope for
10:29
:(
10:29
<ogra>
upstart is very slick
10:29
we might switch to dracut
10:29
<johnny>
ogra, but you probably never looked at the gentoo init system did you
10:29
it was great
10:29
<ogra>
not in lucid though
10:29
<johnny>
orrather.. it is great
10:29
<ogra>
lucid == LTS
10:29
<johnny>
gentoo's was already way better since years
10:30
<ogra>
all cool features only come from karmic for it
10:30
<johnny>
so they don't have as much incentive to switch
10:30
<ogra>
gentoos isnt event driven
10:30
<johnny>
no.. dependency driven
10:30
but it was way faster than what you guys were using before
10:30
<ogra>
i know Keybuk did a deep review of all existing solution before even starting upstart
10:30
<cyberorg>
johnny, see all the things they are looking at? Readahead, sreadahead, init-ng, upstart, even finit
10:31
<ogra>
and i have seen <10sec boots already
10:31
with a stock ubuntu during karmic development
10:31
<johnny>
you're just not the person to ask.. i can tell
10:31
<ogra>
sreadahead is buggy ...
10:32
we'll drop it in lucid and come up with something sane in ubuntu
10:32bieb has joined #ltsp
10:32
<cyberorg>
johnny, of course not, i just do some packaging and build opensuse-edu isos :)
10:33
sbalneav, btw everything we patch, even if it is small hackish thing i've always posted on ltsp-developers list
10:36
<ogra>
so wheer is the patch that enables ltsp-build-client AoE images ?
10:36
so fedora can use it
10:36
<sbalneav>
cyberorg: But my point is, why not just patch UPSTREAM to the code itself? If it's just a case of you're not a part of the ltsp-developers group on launchpad, we can fix that REAL quick :)
10:36
<ogra>
or debian
10:36
<sbalneav>
right.
10:36* sbalneav goes to look
10:37
<cyberorg>
ogra, that is kiwi's implementation, i am just a user of that, put ltsp packages in there to get things going
10:37
<ogra>
so why do you ask if we discuss implementing AoE in LTSP then ?
10:38
<cyberorg>
ogra, so all distros get to use the same feature :)
10:38
<ogra>
so why dont you send a patch that makes that possible and instead implement it in a forked way ?
10:39
<sbalneav>
Right. Unless someone puts it on the agenda, how can we discuss it?
10:39
<cyberorg>
ogra, you are asking that after over 2 years of knowing me? i can't code!! :D
10:39
<ogra>
you can obviously make it work in kiwi
10:40
<sbalneav>
cyberorg: So, in short, what we'd like to see is Kiwi LTSP people become less of active "users" of LTSP upstream, and more of active DEVELOPERS of ltsp upsteream :)
10:40
<ogra>
++
10:40
<sbalneav>
cyberorg: In others words, surrender and become part of the borg :)
10:41
<cyberorg>
sbalneav, i am ltsp and kiwi user, i have not written anything for ltsp or kiwi, both things just work when put together
10:41
<johnny>
cyberorg, can't you convince the people who actually do code those patches to come here?
10:41
<cyberorg>
there are tons of talented people like you writing code, someone has to put it together, thats what i do
10:43
<johnny>
sure.. but you should bring those suse coders to here..
10:43
<sbalneav>
cyberorg: I hope you don't think we're beating up on you :) but it would be nice if you could agitate for someone who IS doing the ltsp stuff within OpenSUSE to come forward and be part of the team .
10:43
<cyberorg>
johnny, it is all in simple bash scripts and perl in here http://git.berlios.de/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=kiwi;a=summary
10:43
sbalneav, i am used to that, so i stick to what i do best and not poke anywhere that i do not understand much
10:43
<johnny>
cyberorg, it's not code we need.. but cooperation
10:44
so those folks who are writing that stuff should come here
10:44
<sbalneav>
One of the frustrations of #ltsp is the apparent "arms-length" that opensuse sort of keeps itself from us.
10:44
So I, personally, would like to see them be more ACTIVELY involved.
10:44
<ogra>
++
10:44
<cyberorg>
sbalneav, there is no one from opensuse into ltsp other than me, and i am always here, johnny even helping some times :)
10:44
<sbalneav>
We've got ogra/stgraber for ubuntu, vagrand for debeian, warren for fedora, johnny & others for gentoo.
10:45
<moldy>
hi folks
10:45
<sbalneav>
cyberorg: Well, who authored that AoE page, then?
10:45
SOMEONE's doing some LTSP hacking :)
10:46
<cyberorg>
sbalneav, no, it is part of kiwi -> http://kiwi.berlios.de/
10:46
<ogra>
still, who wrote that page ?
10:46
<cyberorg>
kiwi just happen to suit what ltsp needs
10:46
<sbalneav>
I thought kiwi was a OpenSuse thing?
10:46
<cyberorg>
ogra, i can write wiki page :)
10:46
<johnny>
kiwi is a distro builder
10:47
<sbalneav>
right, but isn't it an OpenSUSE project?
10:47
<johnny>
started by opensuse.. but not supposed to be an open suse specific project
10:47
<ogra>
its developed by suse people
10:47
<moldy>
ogra: [re: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/373100] i don't have a karmic test environment handy -- would it be alot of effort for you to give this a quick test?
10:47
<cyberorg>
sbalneav, no, "Distribution independent design" same kind of plugin system like ltsp, but it is used to create images of all kinds
10:48
http://www.opensuse-education.org/download/openSUSE-Edu-live-li-f-e-unstable.i686-11.2-RC1.iso
10:48
<ogra>
moldy, the ubuntu archive is locked down since sunday
10:48
<sbalneav>
So, what you're saying is, we don't need a OpenSUSe persom, we need a Kiwi person to hang out here
10:48
<cyberorg>
that live DVD is also created using kiwi, so is ltsp image
10:48
<sbalneav>
then opensuse just gets what kiwi uses, right?
10:49
<cyberorg>
sbalneav, ltsp is just one use that i make of kiwi, it is not made just for ltsp or thin client systems
10:49staffencasa has joined #ltsp
10:49
<ogra>
implementing aoe is as simple as nbd ...
10:50
its afew lines for an initramfs script and another few lines to be added to ltsp-update-image
10:50
<johnny>
i just don't know the benefit
10:50
<ogra>
in max i guess that would be 10-20 lines for someone who very roughly knows shell
10:50
johnny, i doubt there is any
10:50
<moldy>
ogra: can you test it some time after sunday? it's not really urgent, as far as i am concerned (i'm not using that package myself). it's just that i would have to setup a whole karmic ltsp environment in order to test this
10:50
<sbalneav>
cyberorg: right, but since LTSP is something being BUILT USING kiwi, it would be nice to have a kiwi person here, or at least making regular contact with us, so that anything that they're doing with ltsp (like aoe) is flowing upstream.
10:50
<ogra>
moldy, last sunday
10:51
<moldy>
ogra: ah, ok
10:51
<ogra>
moldy, in other words, karmic is done
10:51* cyberorg is the only one using kiwi for ltsp
10:51
<squarepeg>
sc
10:51
<moldy>
ogra: ahh, now i understand.
10:51
<squarepeg>
scottmaccal, i got karmic on g4 after reinstall..
10:51
it looks awesome!
10:51
<moldy>
ogra: so there is no way to get an update out for this issue for ubuntu users?
10:52
<cyberorg>
aoe is not just for ltsp, kiwi provides boot images, aoe is one of its feature, same image(netboot) does nfs, nbd etc
10:52
<johnny>
cyberorg, how come nobody else cares to do regular opensuse without kiwi for ltsp?
10:53
<cyberorg>
johnny, probably because what we have works very well
10:53
<moldy>
ogra: or does Luke Faraone's activity on the bug mean that he is going to handle the issue?
10:53
<johnny>
i thought you just said you were the only user :)
10:53
lol
10:53
<squarepeg>
stgraber:what a difference from our last horrorshow with..uhhh..intrepid on powerpc
10:54
<cyberorg>
check out the latest iso ^^ you will see why, things just work out of box
10:54
<sbalneav>
cyberorg: I understand that. But someone wrote that page. They did some work. Rather than have an ltsp developer have to 1) install opensuse 2) play with that sort of thing 3) figure out how to upstream it, it would be handy to have SOMEONE from the opensuse community who's OBVIOUSLY coding with/working with ltsp, to be here, have access to the code, and upstream this stuff, since they're the most familiar with it.
10:55
<johnny>
sbalneav, thing is.. it comes for free with their setup it sounds like..
10:55
<cyberorg>
sbalneav, i wrote that wiki page
10:55
<johnny>
nothing ltsp specific
10:55
<cyberorg>
johnny, now you got it
10:55
<johnny>
cyberorg, i already had it..
10:55
i just don't like it
10:56
<cyberorg>
when i started porting ltsp for opensuse, i read up muecow page, it said use "distro tools" so i picked kiwi, and it works very well
10:56
i dont have to patch ltsp or patch kiwi to get ltsp going
10:56scottmaccal has quit IRC
10:56
<johnny>
or write an ltsp-build-client plugin even
10:56
<cyberorg>
just have to build rpm packages
10:56
<sbalneav>
cyberorg: OK, so YOU PLAYED WITH IT. You obviously sat down and modified things to get that working. The only way aoe gets discussed/implemented is if someone drives it. You've done it, since you wrote the page.
10:57
But you could write an LTSP plugin for build client to do it.
10:57
<ogra>
moldy, no idea ... you can try to make the bug an SRU
10:57
<cyberorg>
johnny, that is already upstream, ltsp-build-client that calls suse's tools
10:57
sbalneav, ^^
10:57
<johnny>
cyberorg, nobody is maintaining that one..
10:57
<squarepeg>
what repo should have ltsp-server-standalone..
10:58
<ogra>
squarepeg, main in ubuntu
10:58
<cyberorg>
johnny, because it works as it is, it just calls kiwi script
10:58
<ogra>
cyberorg, it works for suse
10:58
not for anyone else
10:58
<squarepeg>
doesnt seem any issue whether powerpc or i386 in sources.list
10:59
<cyberorg>
ogra, i suppose suse plugin for ltsp upstream would work for suse only )
10:59
<ogra>
cyberorg, if you had taken the effort to produce 20 lines of code for ltsp-build-client and ltsp-update image, everyone would have benefited and we wouldnt have to discuss kiwi here
10:59
i'm not talking about the suse plugin, i talk about aoe
11:00
<moldy>
ogra: i'm taking it off my todo list, since i am not using the ubuntu package at the moment... if anyone else needs it fixed, he can work it out :) thank you anyway
11:00
<sbalneav>
cyberorg: But that's what the plugin system is all about. Isolating the bits that each distro cares about.
11:00scottmaccal has joined #ltsp
11:00
<sbalneav>
And the problem is, AFAIK, we have no-one maintaing the opensuse bits.
11:00
<johnny>
sbalneav, but he just lets kiwi do all the ework :)
11:01* sbalneav shrugs
11:01
<johnny>
sbalneav, there is nothing to maintain from the plugins standpoint..
11:01* ogra goes and eats kiwi
11:01
<cyberorg>
ogra, aoe is one small feature implemented in kiwi, i am not kiwi developer or kiwi has no direct relation to ltsp, i just happen to use feature it provides to get ltsp working
11:01
<johnny>
at the most.. it's a way to pass options to kiwi..
11:01
it has no other needs of maintenance
11:01
<ogra>
<cyberorg> anyone exploring aoe at BTS?
11:01
<sbalneav>
all I want is for every distro to have representation within LTSP, and get their voice heard, and have a way to make sure their distro gets supported adequately in upstream LTSP.
11:01
<ogra>
so you obviously want it in ltsp
11:01
<cyberorg>
johnny, i do not believe in reinventing the wheel, i use tools that work for me
11:02
<ogra>
and you obviously know shell scripting
11:02
<sbalneav>
I want this to be an INCLUSIVE process, where as distros come on board, we pick up developers.
11:02
<ogra>
and you obviously looked into aore
11:02
*aoe
11:02
<johnny>
sbalneav, basically he doesn't think he needs to use the plugin infrastructure and use suse's version of debian-installer/kickstart/etc
11:02
whatever that might be.. if there is one..
11:02
<cyberorg>
ogra, yes, because at the moment opensuse is the only distro supporting it, it would be nice to have it on all distros if someone finds it useful or better than nbd
11:02
<johnny>
sbalneav, the other option is for us all to use kiwi files ourselves.. :)
11:02
<ogra>
cyberorg, there is only one reason why its not supported for everyone
11:03
<johnny>
and drop all the debian-installler/kickstart/quickstart code :)
11:03
lol
11:03
<ogra>
and thats because you refuse to participate properly upstream
11:03
<sbalneav>
ogra: don't say it like that.
11:03
<ogra>
and promote hacks with third party tools instead
11:03
<sbalneav>
that's a little too harsh
11:03garymc has quit IRC
11:03
<johnny>
on his point.. we could all just use kiwi..
11:03
to generate chroots
11:03
<cyberorg>
ogra, i will repeat, i do not write code, just make use of whatever feature that is implement in kiwi and ltsp upstreams
11:04pimpministerp has quit IRC
11:04
<ogra>
sbalneav, well, while it might sound harsh it is what is happening
11:04primeministerp has joined #ltsp
11:04
<johnny>
cyberorg, i'm more interested in why nobody else in suse land cares about working with us
11:04
other than you
11:04
<cyberorg>
it is better to do what is possible for me to do best than try to write hackish scripts
11:04
<ogra>
they would be improved by others using them,
11:05
<johnny>
ogra, we need somebody else who is actually a suse developer..
11:05
<Gadi>
personally, I think cyberorg has been great in including experimental features fromupstream into isos for folks, so we can get feedback
11:05
<ogra>
the point is if you submit a broken plugin for aoe, thats still better than nothing
11:05
<Gadi>
that was great when we were first playing with localapps
11:05
<ogra>
because then a fedora, debian or ubuntu dev who wants to use it will improve it
11:05
<sbalneav>
Gadi++
11:05
<cyberorg>
ogra, aoe is implemented in initrd, that is provided by kiwi, we do not even use opensuse's official initrd, there is no aoe patch to mkinitrd
11:06
<ogra>
cyberorg, ltsp is implemented in initrd, thats provided by the distros
11:06
<johnny>
ogra, hmm?
11:06
<ogra>
and where its possible plugins are made common across the board
11:06
<cyberorg>
ogra, yes, ltsp on opensuse does not use opensuse's initrd, but the one created by kiwi
11:07
<johnny>
ogra, it's just like your initramfs-tools plugin it sounds like
11:07
<ogra>
johnny, all the ltsp netbooting, be it nbd or nfs is implemented in initrd
11:07
<squarepeg>
ahhh.better..servers must have been busy..
11:07
<Gadi>
right - just like fedora doesn't use nbd
11:07
<johnny>
ogra, i gotta wonder why nbd isn't alread in initramfs-tools upstream
11:07
<ogra>
johnny, it is, debian uses it
11:07
<johnny>
then why do we have what we have in ltsp-trunk?
11:08
<ogra>
if you want to use debian with nbd it uses the implementation in upstream
11:08
<johnny>
this discussion will never end until we all use the same thing :(
11:08
<ogra>
because nobody converted it within the year or so that nbd in initramfs-tools is supported
11:08
<johnny>
ah!
11:09
<ogra>
and we have special additions in the ltsp one
11:09
<johnny>
as most of this is already supported in dracut
11:09
<ogra>
like the nbd monitor
11:10
<Gadi>
well, nbd monitor is outside initramfs
11:10
<ogra>
oh, did it move ?
11:10
<Gadi>
its in the rootfs, I believe
11:10
<ogra>
i thought its used before rootfs is mounted
11:10
<Gadi>
yeah - stgraber disconnects nbd in the rootfs and reconnects
11:10
<ogra>
for the reconnecting
11:10
ah
11:11
see, i'm out of ltsp coding for to long already :)
11:11
<Gadi>
that way it stays in rootfs-space
11:11
:)
11:11
<ogra>
i only glance over commits from time to time
11:11
<johnny>
ah..
11:11
stgraber, so.. how about removing the initramfs stuff from ltsp-trunk then :)
11:11* alkisg managed to use the "vanilla" ubuntu kernel to boot an nbd fat client - with only one minor bug fix...
11:12squarepeg has quit IRC
11:12cliebow has joined #ltsp
11:12
<ogra>
anyway, cp ltsp_nbd ltsp_aoe ... 10 mins of hacking ... vi ltsp-update-image ... another ten mins of hacking ... any you have aoe support
11:12squarepeg has joined #ltsp
11:12
<johnny>
so..how likely is it that things will work if i upgrade to karmic :)
11:12
<cliebow>
x
11:13
<Gadi>
right - ogra, I think cyberorg's motivation was to compare notes with other distros, but in order for him to do that, either he has to write aoe support for other distros and test it and encourage others to use it, or he can ask the devs if they are interested in exploring it
11:13
<ogra>
johnny, if you rebuild your client it should all work ... modulo custom changes you made indeed
11:13
<Gadi>
but, as we all know, developing stuff for distros we don't intend to use or maintain tends to be a back-burner thing
11:13
:)
11:13
<ogra>
(custom changes to the desktop session etc ... which are not ltsp related)
11:14
Gadi, which is the reason i complain about kiwi from day one ... because it makes collaboration impossible
11:14
<Gadi>
right
11:14
<IHS_Volunteer>
What fun, Ubuntu 9.10's LTSP server isn't letting me login from the clients :/
11:15
<Gadi>
but, then again, we cannot collaborate with fedora on nbd, really, either
11:15
:)
11:15
<alkisg>
IHS_Volunteer: ltsp-update-sshkeys and ltsp-update-image?
11:15
<Gadi>
there will just always be some pieces of LTSP that we will do differently
11:15
<ogra>
no, but if fedora wanted they could quickly add some lines to make it work based on what exists
11:15
<Gadi>
due to build systems and the like
11:15
<squarepeg>
ahhh
11:16
<cliebow>
ahhh++
11:16
<ogra>
Gadi, right, but easy to adjust still
11:16
<IHS_Volunteer>
alkisg, I'm running updates. I may worry about it tomorrow. 9.04 is still working fine on this server.
11:16
<ogra>
Gadi, simply due to the fact that they all already use the same framework
11:16
<alkisg>
IHS_Volunteer: I thought you said you couldn't login
11:16
<Gadi>
ogra: true - sometimes it is not the ease of implementation, but the motivation
11:16
<ogra>
indeed
11:17
johnny, upgrade -> dont forget you need to upgrade via jaunty
11:17
<IHS_Volunteer>
alkisg, from the clients? no. I have 2 servers up and running, though, this server is fine, the other one running 9.10 isn't fine.
11:17squarepeg has quit IRC
11:18
<johnny>
oh.. i have to upgrade to jaunt first..
11:18
ok.. i'll do that tonight then
11:18
<ogra>
as always
11:18
<Gadi>
now, if cyberorg said, hey guys, in kiwi it was easy for me to switch to AOE, and I found it to improve performance 1000%, I think you guys should check it out. I have no idea how to modify ubuntu to use it, but if you think its a simple mod, you should try it and we can talk about it
11:18
<johnny>
i'm not used to missing distros..
11:18
<ogra>
ubuntu only supports upgrades from one release to another
11:18
or LTS->LTS
11:18
<Gadi>
that's probably how he would have wanted the conv to unfold
11:18
:)
11:18
<johnny>
es.. lts->lts ..
11:18
that's what i was thinking..
11:19
<cyberorg>
Gadi, i just said if anyone is exploring it for other distros :)
11:19
<johnny>
but there wo'nt be an lts.. and i can't be 2 releases behind anymore
11:19
i don't blame cyberorg for using tools available to make something happen..
11:19
<ogra>
johnny, just install hardy and wait 6 months :P
11:19
<johnny>
i blame suse project for not really interacting with ltsp..
11:19
<ogra>
++
11:19
<IHS_Volunteer>
johnny, the next Ubuntu LTS is 10.04
11:19
<johnny>
i know
11:19
IHS_Volunteer, you don't have to tell me
11:19
<IHS_Volunteer>
it will be.
11:20
<johnny>
IHS_Volunteer, i've been bugging ogra for 2 years now.. i think i'm up to date :)
11:20
in knowing about ubuntu that is..
11:20
<cyberorg>
johnny, i don't blame them either, when things are working no one wants to put real developers on it
11:21
<johnny>
i guess..
11:21
:(
11:21
<IHS_Volunteer>
I switched to ubuntu because it's what the High School chose, I was interning and had to support them. Now I'm volunteering, and supporting them Dx
11:21* scottmaccal 'finishing up upgrade before taking LTSP plunge'
11:21
<chrisinajar>
!devo++
11:21
<alkisg>
cyberorg: how *faster* is aoe from e.g. nbd or other methods? I see some speed reports in the site, but no speed *comparison*...
11:21
<johnny>
ok.. i'm gonna upgrade to jaunty tonight then..
11:21
<cyberorg>
johnny, see warren for example, he came it for just the amount of time it took to get it working on fedora
11:22
<johnny>
he still comes back :)
11:22
<cyberorg>
alkisg, hardly noticable
11:22
<johnny>
and works with us over mailing list
11:22
<cyberorg>
johnny, yes, so i am always here :)
11:22
<alkisg>
So, are there any real benefits in using AoE?
11:23
<ogra>
alkisg, as many as from iscsi
11:23
<chrisinajar>
I can't help but read that as "area of effect"
11:23
<ogra>
or from nbd
11:23
<cyberorg>
alkisg, no tcp/ip overheads
11:23
<ogra>
chrisinajar, not "Age of Empires" ?
11:23
:)
11:23
<alkisg>
but if there's no noticable speed improvement, why not keep the overhead and keep the ability to work on different subnets, over wan etc?
11:24
<chrisinajar>
ogra: that's what i thought of second, but from all the mmo's and rpgs and stuff... area of effect spells are so broken when a good tank build...
11:24
<johnny>
especially if you just confuse people with all the options
11:24* chrisinajar 's flyFF AoE character was so broken
11:24_UsUrPeR__ has joined #ltsp
11:24
<ogra>
hah
11:24
<cyberorg>
alkisg, yes, so requirement will decide if nfs, nbd or aoe is most efficient
11:24
alkisg, we use aoe if we want to serve multiple images of different kinds
11:25
<_UsUrPeR__>
hey all. I am having a problem with the resolv.conf fix for localapps in Karmic 9.10 Beta.
11:25
specifically firefox
11:25PMantis has left #ltsp
11:25
<_UsUrPeR__>
I have forwarding turned on, and have created a script to allow writing to resolv.conf on the ltsp image, but I don't seem to be forwarding properly
11:26
<ogra>
why did you add a script ?
11:26
<IHS_Volunteer>
I decided to go and update the ssh keys and update the image..still not working.
11:27
<_UsUrPeR__>
ogra: is resolv.conf writable by default now? I'll admit: I did not check before adding the script to the chroot
11:27
<ogra>
yes
11:27
<_UsUrPeR__>
oh, wonderful!
11:27
ok, well I'll go about removing that
11:27
<ogra>
its a bug stgraber fixed early during karmic development
11:27
<IHS_Volunteer>
first, I noticed the NIC wasn't enabled in the GUI, after I enabled it, the system pxebooted. I tried to login, but the server didn't answer, apparently. :/
11:27
<_UsUrPeR__>
mad props to the grabermeister
11:27
<ogra>
:)
11:28
<_UsUrPeR__>
ogra: ok, so I am still having a forwarding issue with the server. I was following along with my notes for 9.04 in order to allow forwarding
11:28
is there a change in there I am not aware of?
11:28
<ogra>
no idea
11:28
but i dont think so
11:29
should still be one entry in sysctl.conf (or sysctl.d/<youname it>.conf
11:29
)
11:29
and one iptables rule or ufw setting
11:30
<IHS_Volunteer>
how does one change the network interface LTSP is using? incase I want to put this hard drive in a more powerful computer with different NICs.
11:30
<ogra>
in /etc/network/interfaces
11:31Selveste1__ has quit IRC
11:31
<alkisg>
IHS_Volunteer: I think the easiest way is to edit /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules ...
11:31
<ogra>
and probably /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules if you move your install disk around
11:31
<_UsUrPeR__>
IHS_Volunteer: in /etc/default/dhcp3-server you can specify a specific NIC
11:31
<ogra>
_UsUrPeR_, DOMT !
11:31
*DONT even
11:31
<_UsUrPeR__>
?!?
11:32
<ogra>
never ever edit /etc/default/dhcp3-server
11:32
that switches off the selfftests
11:32_UsUrPeR_ has quit IRC
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11:32
<_UsUrPeR_>
ogra: :O
11:32
<ogra>
make sure your IP in /etc/network/interfaces matches the subnet declaration in the dhcp.conf
11:32
thats all that's needed
11:33
if you switch HW and want something else to be eth0 you edit /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules (and only then)
11:33stuffed_shirt has joined #ltsp
11:34
<ogra>
if you are sure you dont care about dhcpd checking your config for errors you set a NIC in /etc/default/dhcp3-server (and only then)
11:35
<IHS_Volunteer>
I'm considering going from a socket 939 AMD Athlon 64 X2 @ 2.2ghz to a socket 755 Core 2 Duo 1.8ghz. From my understanding the C2D is going to perform a lot better.
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11:41
<ogra>
look ! ubuntu in the bbc news ! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/default.stm
11:41
<lonchiton>
alguien que me pueda ayudar?
11:44
o que me pueda orientar?
11:44
<stgraber>
Gadi: heartbeat migrates the IP when one of the server is unreachable so no thin clients loose access to nbd
11:47
<lonchiton>
can anyone help me?
11:47evilx_ has quit IRC
11:47
<alkisg>
!ask
11:47
<ltspbot>
alkisg: "ask" is Don't ask to ask a question, simply ask it, and if someone knows the answer, they'll respond. Please hang around for at least 15 minutes after asking a question, as not everybody constantly monitors the channel.
11:47
<Gadi>
right, but migrate it to be multihomed?
11:47
<alkisg>
lonchiton: ^^
11:47
<Gadi>
because you have some tftp servers pointing to 1 IP and some pointing to another
11:52
<lonchiton>
i need to know how the thin client start from the usb?
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11:52
<alkisg>
lonchiton: it doesn't support "boot from lan" and you need to start it from the usb stick?
11:54
lonchiton: go there and download the "usb keychain disk image": http://rom-o-matic.net/gpxe/gpxe-0.9.9/contrib/rom-o-matic/
11:58
<lonchiton>
which one nic type i choose?
12:02
<alkisg>
gpxe:all-drivers
12:02
<lonchiton>
can i burn this image on windows or linux?
12:03
<alkisg>
burn? you mean copy to the usb?
12:03
<lonchiton>
yes
12:04
this image it's bootable?
12:05
<alkisg>
Yes, it's bootable
12:05
No os; it just boots from the network
12:05
But are you sure that this is what you need? I.e. your pc doesn't boot from the network, but it boots from a usb stick?
12:12
<lonchiton>
to boot from a lan, i need a special network card?
12:13
<johnny>
err
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12:27
<johnny>
hmm.. update-manager doesn't seem to have an option to download packages only
12:35
<ogra>
you could use apt-get for that
12:35
and only run u-m later
12:35
i think apt-get -d dist-upgrade works (look at the manpage, not 100% sure though)
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12:37
<FoolsRun>
Hi, I just built a for-fun test environment LTSP on Ubuntu. I'm wondering if there's a way to disable sound for clients, especially at login.
12:38Lns has joined #ltsp
12:39
<FoolsRun>
anyone know?
12:41
<johnny>
SOUND=F in /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/lts.conf
12:41
create teh file with this
12:41
[default]
12:41
SOUND=F
12:42sbalneav_ has joined #ltsp
12:42
<FoolsRun>
do I rebuild the client after that?
12:42
<sbalneav_>
Urk.
12:42
Back
12:44sbalneav_ has quit IRC
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12:45
<sbalneav>
THATS better
12:46
<johnny>
no
12:46fasthans has joined #ltsp
12:46
<johnny>
FoolsRun, that's why it's a seperate file.. so you don't have to rebuild the client when changing parameters
12:46fasthans has left #ltsp
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12:48
<FoolsRun>
johnny: cool, thanks. I'm just getting a handle on how this all works so I wasn't sure if that was somehow compiled in
12:48
Currently running LTSP on an Acer Aspire One netbook :)
12:49
the server, that is.
12:49
<johnny>
read
12:49
!docs
12:49
<ltspbot>
johnny: "docs" is For the most current documentation, see http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LtspDocumentationUpstream
12:49
<johnny>
you will learn lots
12:49
<FoolsRun>
great, thanks!
12:51
<jammcq>
sbalneav: ping
12:52
<sbalneav>
jammcq: pong
12:52
<jammcq>
prepare to leave around 2:15
12:52
<sbalneav>
ok, so about 20 minutes.
12:52
got it.
12:52
<FoolsRun>
Hmmm. With SOUND=N or SOUND=F (your suggestion and what the docs say) sound is still enabled at GDM
12:52
<jammcq>
yep
12:54
<sbalneav>
SOUND= only enables/disables sound on the thin client.
12:54
it doesn't touch GDM's config.
12:54
<FoolsRun>
sbalneav: yeah, on the client I still have sound at the login screen
12:54
<sbalneav>
Hmm, shouldn't
12:54
<FoolsRun>
Or rather, really loud speaker hum which, along with the super loud login sound, I'm trying to get rid of
12:55
so that I don't have other cubes coming to figure out why I'm blasting jungle noises across the office ;)
12:55
<sbalneav>
Speaker hum's a hardware issue.
12:56
You might try manipulating the _VOLUME parameters.
12:56
<FoolsRun>
sbalneav: when I login and turn off sound the hum goes away
12:56
<sbalneav>
So, you'vve got cheap speakers :)
12:56
<FoolsRun>
is that in the same file? _VOLUME=0 ?
12:57
<sbalneav>
where are you putting the parameters? in /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386?
12:57
<FoolsRun>
yes
12:57
<sbalneav>
can you paste your lts.conf file to the pastebot?
12:58
!pastebot
12:58
<ltspbot>
sbalneav: "pastebot" is The LTSP pastebot is at http://pastebot.ltsp.org. Please paste all text longer than a line or two to the pastebot, as it helps to reduce traffic in the channel. A link to the content will be pasted in the channel.
12:58
<FoolsRun>
I'd have to retype it --the LTSP server machine is on its own network right now
12:58
Hang on
12:58
<sbalneav>
I want the original. Retypes don't help :)
12:59
<FoolsRun>
there are only two lines :)
12:59
<sbalneav>
I still want to see the original
12:59
<FoolsRun>
SOUND=N and VOLUME=0
12:59
But VOLUME=0 just made the hiss go away
12:59
So I'm probably good
12:59fasthans has joined #ltsp
12:59
<sbalneav>
only those two lines?
12:59fasthans has left #ltsp
12:59
<FoolsRun>
yup
12:59
well and [default]
12:59
<sbalneav>
ok, so the file's wrong
13:00
ok, so now three lines
13:00
can YOU JUST PASTE THE FILE :)
13:00
<FoolsRun>
I can't --it doesn't have internet and it would be a lot of config to give it internet right now. But it's working properly so I'm good.
13:00
the volume parameter fixed the problem
13:01
<sbalneav>
Well, if you'e sitting on the thin client, it should be right there.
13:01
<FoolsRun>
I'm not
13:01
I'm on another PC
13:01
different network
13:01
<sbalneav>
ok
13:01
so it's fixed
13:02
<FoolsRun>
yes
13:02
thanks :)
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13:12
<sbalneav>
heading to the airport
13:12
be on tonight.
13:13
<CAN-o-SPAM>
sbalneav: still in MI?
13:14
<ogra>
sbalneav, safe flight
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13:24
<johnny>
ogra, how can you only download packages?
13:24
for update-manager usagae that is..
13:25
<ogra>
u-m uses the same apt cache dir
13:25
use apt :)
13:25jammcq has quit IRC
13:25
<ogra>
apt-get -d
13:25
thats enforcing download only mode
13:25
<johnny>
sure.. but how do i get all the packages i need for jaunty upgrade
13:26
<ogra>
change your sources.list manually
13:26
"apt-get update && apt-get -d upgrade"
13:26
that should get you the majority of püackages
13:26
then change your sources.list back
13:26
<johnny>
and then run update-manager
13:26
<ogra>
run u-m and it will do its work
13:26
<johnny>
ok.. sweet
13:27
i thought the ui used to have an option to only download packages.. but it must have been something else..
13:28
<ogra>
i think thats synaptic
13:36
<scottmaccal>
I did a Google search but no luck. I'm looking for the LTSP repository.
13:36
<johnny>
it's in launchpad
13:36
launchpad.net
13:36
look for ltsp-trunk
13:36
<scottmaccal>
ahh
13:36
OK
13:36
thank you.
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14:10
<coordinador>
hi, i havent fuse running on server and i cannot make it run
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14:23
<coordinador>
somebody?
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14:51
<coordinador>
i have a problem, when i put a usbdrive it appears in root session only
14:52vagrantc has joined #ltsp
14:52
<coordinador>
(it happen if i connect it in any terminal, always appeared on the terminal where root is logged in only)
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14:55
<Lns>
coordinador: sounds like your fstab file has that drive being mounted as root only..? just a guess though.
14:57
<coordinador>
Lns, how can i check it?
14:57
in chroot or in server filesystem?
14:57
<Lns>
cat /etc/fstab?
14:58
<coordinador>
Lns, of course, but in chroot or in server filesystem?
14:58
ill try both
15:00
<Lns>
coordinador: it'd be on the server..but if you haven't touched it, that's probably not the issue
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15:10
<Gadi>
guys - anyone have a link that talks about gdm dropping xdmcp support?
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15:15
<jammcq>
hey all
15:15* vagrantc_ waves
15:16
<jammcq>
vagrantc_: how's it going?
15:17* vagrantc_ entered into the world of laptops that aren't laughable
15:18
<jammcq>
something with some horsepower?
15:18
!seen sbalneav
15:18
<ltspbot>
jammcq: sbalneav was last seen in #ltsp 2 hours, 6 minutes, and 2 seconds ago: <sbalneav> be on tonight.
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15:21
<Lns>
Gadi: gdm is dropping xdmcp support?!
15:25
<Gadi>
so I hear
15:26
from the guys in here
15:26
<coordinador>
hi i have a problem, when i plug an usbdrive in any terminal, the icon appears in the terminal where root are logged only
15:27
<Gadi>
never log in as root
15:27Kicer86 has joined #ltsp
15:27
<Gadi>
that's a.
15:27
b. make sure the users are in the "fuse" group
15:28
(if you are on ubuntu)
15:28
<coordinador>
well, yes, there is a root logged in. And all users are in fuse group
15:29
i had a similar problem where fuse was not loaded, but i forgot how to check this
15:29
<Gadi>
grep fuse /proc/filesystems
15:29
<johnny>
fuse is alwasy loaded.. it's built into the kernel on ubuntu
15:29
<coordinador>
ok
15:30
<Gadi>
depends what version he's running
15:30
<coordinador>
then i will logout root
15:30
<johnny>
but do what gadi says anyways..
15:30
Gadi, which version did it change?
15:30
woudl be good for me too know too :)
15:30
<coordinador>
.. so i will back in a minute xD
15:30coordinador has quit IRC
15:30
<Gadi>
not sure - but I think hardy was still a module
15:30
these are the trivia that ogra's good for
15:30
;)
15:31coordinador has joined #ltsp
15:31
<coordinador>
i am back
15:31
ok, ill check now
15:32
ok, still happen
15:32
<Gadi>
grep fuse /proc/filesystems
15:33
<coordinador>
Gadi, "nodev fuse"
15:33
<Gadi>
are you logged in as a user right now?
15:33
<coordinador>
Gadi, yes
15:34
<Gadi>
with a USB drive inserted?
15:34
<coordinador>
Gadi, no
15:34
<Gadi>
insert the USB drive
15:34
<coordinador>
ok
15:34
<Gadi>
then, ls /media/$USER
15:35
<coordinador>
oh god it appear there...
15:35
o...
15:35
ok...
15:35
ok... sorry for your time...
15:35
ok...
15:36
i disabled watch drives with gconf-editor so the users couldnt watch the server hds
15:36
ok....
15:39
ok, yes it was that
15:39
how to make that only usb local drives appear in desktop of users?
15:42
<Gadi>
you can use LOCALDEV_DENY variables
15:42
Ill give you an example....
15:43
<johnny>
Gadi, huh?
15:43
what does localdev deny have to do with devices plugged in on the server
15:43
must be magic :)
15:44
<Gadi>
I thought he meant devices plugged in on the client
15:44
<johnny>
read the commentes before
15:44
how to allow only usb local drives :)
15:44
<Gadi>
oh, I read that to mean only *usb* and not other types
15:44
as opposed to only *local* and not server
15:45
<johnny>
so.. is there a way?
15:45
2 releases ago.. nobody could give me an answer..
15:45
<coordinador>
yes, only local, so the users wont see the server drives
15:45
<johnny>
i wanted the same thing
15:45
<Gadi>
hmm...
15:45
well, if you don't want users to see the cdrom/floppy on the server, youcan take them out of the appropriate groups
15:45
I believe
15:45
<johnny>
as i used the same machine for ltsp as the POS machine that was also used for web browsing, etc
15:46
Gadi, is that the same in intrepid? my users aren't even in those groups anymore
15:46
i thought more stuff happened through policykit instead of through groups..
15:47
<Gadi>
hmm... I thought if the user is not in the cdrom group, then they would only see a cdrom icon if someone mounted it
15:47
in other words, if one person mounts it on the server, with perms for everyone, they all will see it
15:48
<coordinador>
i have partitions in server, no cdrom neither floppy icon appeared but partitions does, is there a way to make that the partition icons doesnt appear in desktop of users?
15:48
<Gadi>
but, if the permissions are such that the users cannot see it, gnome won't present it
15:48
<coordinador>
humm
15:48
<johnny>
i don't think that is possible coordinador .. if you can't see the partition you can't run em
15:48
but why should they appear on the desktop
15:49
perhaps there is an option not to show them on desktop
15:50
<coordinador>
johnny, in gconf-editor ->apps->nautilus->desktop there is an option called "show volumes" or some, but it makes that the usblocal devices doesnt appear neither (that was my problem 5 minutes ago)
15:50
<johnny>
ah.. then i dont' think there is anything you can do
15:50
unless you write code
15:50
<Gadi>
another workaround to all of this is to turn off "show volumes" and use the mounter.d/ dir in ltspfs to create icons
15:50
<johnny>
so i think you're just going to have to deal with it
15:50
ah..
15:50
that's total hack
15:50
<Gadi>
my specialty
15:51bieb has left #ltsp
15:51
<Gadi>
:)
15:51
<johnny>
Gadi, sometimes you should just tell people no
15:51vvinet has quit IRC
15:51
<Gadi>
its a personal failing
15:51
:)
15:51
<coordinador>
johnny, what about if i make an link to /home/user/Drives ... and show the folder content..
15:51
hummm
15:51
<johnny>
coordinador, i don't think your users will are that much.. nor does it cause much of a problem
15:51
<Gadi>
thats another way to do it
15:51
<johnny>
or any problem even :)
15:52
stuff like that will get you into trouble as the underlying environment changes
15:52
<coordinador>
maybe if i change the icon of the server drives to a transparent pdf..
15:52
*png
15:52
lol
15:52
<johnny>
don't do it.. :(
15:52
you'll still get text
15:53
just ignore the issue and move on
15:53
<coordinador>
with a very little label like a dot
15:53
<Gadi>
lol
15:53
<johnny>
just don't
15:54
<Gadi>
johnny: maybe he doesnt have the luxury of saying no
15:54
<johnny>
you always do..
15:54
<coordinador>
ok, may be... if i use a wallpaper with a very intrincated thing at one of it corner and put the icons there
15:54
<johnny>
until you can beg fo money
15:54
to learn how to code it yourself and patch it out
15:55
<coordinador>
i will do a wallpaper with a square or rectangle where it appeared all useful icons, and the rest of wallpaper will be a intrincated design where the server driver icons will be camuflated
15:55
<Gadi>
maybe he says no, he loses the contract, without the contract, he can't feed his family, they need to move into a shelter and live off the gvmt cheese - and all because he didn't implement one little hack
15:55
do you want that on ur conscience?
15:55
:)
15:56
<coordinador>
haah it could happen
15:56
<Gadi>
see?
15:56
<johnny>
some people are working too high above their paygrade..
15:56
that is what it sounds like to me
15:56
<Gadi>
we have directories like mounter.d/ for just such an emergency
15:57
kinda sucks to buy into this whole open source idea and then not be able to hack it to do what you want
15:58
if only to keep our wives happy ;)
15:59
coordinador: here's a link to a different script using mounter.d/: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LocaldevCommonGroupWorkaround
16:00
hack away, my friend
16:01
oh, and don't forget to file a bug somewhere someplace somehow describing your disgust that neither the gnome devs nor the ltsp devs have addressed this issue yet
16:01
:)
16:01
<johnny>
Gadi, i think it can be more easily addressed via policykit
16:01
theoretically at least..
16:01
<Gadi>
that and a second mortgage will get you on the subway in NY ;)
16:02* Gadi loves all the new "platforms" and the theoretical utopia they bring
16:02
<Gadi>
:)
16:02shawnp0wers has joined #ltsp
16:03
<Gadi>
meanwhile, I think policykit has actually decreased my remote desktop functionality in the short term
16:03
:)
16:03
can't wait to see how its going to help me this time around
16:05
...and I still think "lucid" makes it sound like Ubuntu's waking up from a seriously long and bad hangover
16:05
where's sbalneav? I need a venting partner
16:05
:)
16:06
<jammcq>
sbalneav is sitting on a plane, getting ready to take off from Detroit
16:06
<Gadi>
so, what, he can't vent from the plane?
16:07
<jammcq>
well... once he gets above 10,000 ft, he can pop open his lappy and vent
16:07
<Gadi>
he better!
16:07
or don't get me started on that sbalneav guy...
16:07
;)
16:08
so, with xdmcp going away, are we it?
16:08
are we Linux's answer to remote desktops?
16:09
if so, I think somebody should be sending us the memo
16:09
<jammcq>
umm, yep
16:09* Gadi nominates jammcq for some press time
16:09
<Gadi>
they should be sending you flowers
16:11
<jammcq>
I'd rather have chocolate
16:11
<Gadi>
the one, fundamental, instrumental feature of Linux, and its being stripped away with nary a mention
16:11* Gadi shakes his head
16:11
<jammcq>
there's always KDM and XDM
16:12
and who needs xdmcp anyway? with passwords flying through the air without any encryption?
16:12fotanus1 has quit IRC
16:12
<Gadi>
thats not the point
16:12* jammcq wonders what is
16:12
<Gadi>
for sure, it should die a horrible death
16:12
but with not even a mention or a thought as to a replacement?
16:13
<jammcq>
well...
16:13
<Gadi>
shoved aside
16:13
to make room for what? prettier greeters?
16:13
<jammcq>
do we know for sure that xdmcp is being dropped from gdm?
16:13
<Gadi>
(no, but I like venting)
16:13
:)
16:14
<jammcq>
besides, we all know that the 2 most important features of a linux distribution (ubuntu... cough cough) are boot speed and pretty greeter
16:14
<Gadi>
oh yeah
16:14
we need LTSP to stand for Linux Terminal Server Protocol
16:15
and do it right
16:15
<johnny>
uhm..
16:15
<Gadi>
if we're *it*, then we could get it adopted
16:15
<CAN-o-SPAM>
do "what" right?
16:15
<johnny>
ssh -X ..
16:15
that's the replacement
16:15
just like we do..
16:15
<Gadi>
exactly
16:15
but, how crappy is that?
16:15
<johnny>
but that feature existed before ltsp
16:15
hmm?
16:15
isn't it better
16:16
<Gadi>
the ssh guys wont even work with us to handle password expiry
16:16
<johnny>
works over the internet in a sane way
16:16
<Gadi>
and we're talking about writing a whole pam stack to work around it
16:16
<johnny>
well.. that's a totally different problem..
16:16
why not just expect on the output?
16:16
i don't get what the big problem is
16:16
<jammcq>
johnny: if there were a gui ssh client and it handled password aging, then yeah, that would be a suitable replacement for a greeter with xdmcp
16:16
<Gadi>
the point is, a terminal services protocol, if it needs to be redone, would not be done with ssh -X
16:16pmatulis has joined #ltsp
16:16
<jammcq>
cuz that's really pretty much all LDM is (or wants to be)
16:17
<Gadi>
a proper protocol would handle the entire multimedia stream
16:17
and have a channel for client/server communications
16:17
all flowing through the same pipe
16:17
that was well controlled
16:17
ssh -X is convenient for us
16:18
but, even the ssh guys don't think it is a proper way to push a desktop
16:18
quick poll: how many people set LDM_DIRECTX?
16:18
;)
16:18
why? because ssh -X kinda sucks
16:19
<johnny>
well.. actually it is great
16:19
<Gadi>
why? because it ain't designed to push out a desktop
16:19
<johnny>
too great.. cuz of all the wrapping of encryption ,etc..
16:19
<coordinador>
oh god i made a mistake
16:19
i did chmod 555 to /
16:19
<vmlintu>
Gadi: me! ;)
16:19
<coordinador>
unintentionally of course
16:19
<Gadi>
coordinador: yeah, dont do that
16:19
;)
16:20
<coordinador>
haha i was typing another thing .. but i pressed enter accidentally
16:20
<Gadi>
was it recursive?
16:20
<coordinador>
Gadi could you please tell me which are the permissions (fortunately werent recursively)
16:20
<Gadi>
try 755
16:20
<coordinador>
*wasnt (my english sucks)
16:20
<Gadi>
you should be all good
16:21
<coordinador>
ok... ill try that
16:21
<Gadi>
back to my rant...
16:21
<coordinador>
the 5 is r-x right?
16:21
<Gadi>
yeah
16:21
in binary
16:21
<coordinador>
ok everything seems to be fine :)
16:22
thank you
16:22pmatulis has quit IRC
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16:22
<Gadi>
johnny: I thought above everyone, you would appreciate the extent to which ssh -X is a hack
16:22
it is the ultimate hack
16:22
it is a hack for lack of a proper solution
16:23
<johnny>
yep..
16:23
but i know i can't design such a solution
16:23
above my paygrade
16:23
<Gadi>
hehe
16:23
we demand more from little ssh than I think any other user of it
16:24
and it still doesn't get us where we need to go
16:24
so, we hack it a bit more
16:24
I dunno
16:25
it is just sad to me, that the best multi-user OS in the world is stripping away all the multi-user functionality
16:25
and is leaving it to third parties to solve
16:25
in favor of competing as a desktop OS
16:26
or, I should say, a PC OS
16:27
<vmlintu>
is there something else going away besides xdmcp from gdm?
16:27
<Gadi>
probably - they're probably going to run it in the kernel :P
16:28
<vmlintu>
uh
16:28Kicer86 has quit IRC
16:28
<jammcq>
vmlintu: gadi was joking
16:28
<Gadi>
I hope the logins are animated
16:28
<vmlintu>
modprobe gdm
16:28
<Gadi>
that would rock!
16:29
actually, I think we should focus on "mood logins"
16:29
mine would be dark at the moment
16:29
<vmlintu>
I have to admit that I don't miss the xdmcp days from ltsp 4.2..
16:29
<Gadi>
unless policysit tells it that dark mood logins are not permitted after 5PM EST
16:30
<vmlintu>
But then again I was running xdmcp over ipsec to gdm to get it encrypted..
16:30
<sepski>
Gadi, ldm_directx +1 (or else the weak cpu'd clients lag a lot) yes even with blowfish orand arcfour
16:30coordinador has quit IRC
16:31
<Gadi>
frankly, if not for the LDM_DIRECTX hack, I think LTSP5 would have all of 3 users - and we would still be relying on xdmcp
16:31
<sepski>
unfortunatly.. true
16:32
<Gadi>
and it saddens me that we are so heavily reliant on ssh - as we have no control over it, nor do we have the ability to optimize it for our needs
16:33
<sepski>
i wish for ssh -NX where it uses some hopefully in the future open and cleaned up nxlibs without the whole freenx nomachineNX on top
16:33
for my own intermittant remote desktop needs, not ltsp :)
16:33
<Gadi>
a step in the right direction, but even then, video would suck
16:33otavio_ has joined #ltsp
16:34
<Gadi>
there's potential in ssh
16:34
for excellent hackage
16:34
and perhaps we will find good layers to add on top of it to achieve what we need
16:35
<vmlintu>
What are the most pressing needs for ssh? Besides the password aging..
16:35
<Gadi>
but, one thing XDMCP had that ssh doesn't, is a consistent framework for pushing out a remote desktop
16:35otavio_ has quit IRC
16:35
<Gadi>
well, if you use ssh -X , the proxy degrades the video
16:35
so, an accelerated Xproxy would be nice
16:36
also, it makes it difficult for video players to sync audio and video
16:36
as the audio is not proxied
16:36
(another reason why videos perform better with directx)
16:36
so, really
16:37
aside from the communications channel that ssh offers
16:37
the tunneling of video and audio kinda stink
16:37
and we dont even tunnel audio atm
16:37
:)
16:37
next, we can talk about compression
16:37Ahmuck has joined #ltsp
16:37
<Gadi>
thats where NX comes in
16:37
<vmlintu>
How many users there are that require encryption of X?
16:38
<Gadi>
NX has done a lot of good hacks on top of ssh
16:38
<sepski>
wonder if someone with awsome math skills could conjure up a ssh cipher, optimized for remote desktops. and what difference it would make
16:38
<Gadi>
encrypted X is a distro requirement
16:38
no distro would ship a product that is knowingly insecure
16:38
by design
16:38
<vmlintu>
From previous experience I can say that using ipsec for X encryption works way better than ssh -X
16:39
<Gadi>
as well it should
16:39
<vmlintu>
but ipsec is pain in the ass for normal users..
16:39
<Gadi>
it is not on the application layer
16:39
<vmlintu>
Why should the encryption be on the application layer?
16:39Ahmuck is now known as Ahmuck-Sr
16:39
<Gadi>
it shouldnt
16:39
<sepski>
vmlintu, it should not. but it's what we have
16:39
<Gadi>
its better if it isnt
16:39
thats why ipsec is better than ssh
16:40
but, as you say, ssh is set up by default
16:40
ipsec requires a bit more management
16:40
but nothing that couldn't be automated
16:41
but, so lets say you do that
16:41
what are you left with?
16:41
using ssh for just a communications tunnel
16:41
and not for tunneling traffic
16:41
so, that's where we're at with LDM_DIRECTX
16:42
but, Linux Terminal Services should be analogous to Citrix or Microsoft RDS
16:42
and should be better
16:42
because Linux has a longer legacy of being multi-user
16:43
but, the best we have is to use a protocol that was not designed to deliver a remote desktop
16:43
<vmlintu>
any there any pressing problems with ssh as a communication tunnel?
16:43
<sepski>
with cludges on top
16:43
<Gadi>
and in order to achieve adequate performance, has to be bypassed!
16:44jammcq has quit IRC
16:44
<vmlintu>
any=are
16:44
<Gadi>
sure - by bypassing it, I cannot bring up a remote desktop unless it is in the same subnet
16:45
thats kind of a weak terminal services protocol, no?
16:45
otherwise, I need bi-directional routing everywhere in my LAN
16:45
and forget about going over the WAN
16:45
<vmlintu>
true
16:45
<Gadi>
is that the best we can do?
16:46
oh, but there's NX!
16:46
hello?
16:46
Linux needs a Linux solution
16:46
a standard Linux solution
16:46
with a focus
16:47
so, I can use the same protocol to connect to any flavor of Linux the same way
16:47Sarten-X has quit IRC
16:47
<Gadi>
and that protocol is optimized to deliver the best remote desktop experience possible
16:48
and thats where we need to get to
16:48
maybe we can do that on top of ssh
16:48
<vmlintu>
I'm waiting for the mosix-as-a-standard-solution that transfers my localapps between ubuntu and opensuse thin client..
16:48
<Gadi>
or maybe we use ssh as just the communications tunnel
16:48
and create a separate protocol to tunnel through the good stuff
16:49coordinador has joined #ltsp
16:49
<Gadi>
yeah, keep waiting
16:49
:)
16:49
<coordinador>
hi, everything is fine :) but.... the scanner only works as root
16:49
<Gadi>
if it doesn't happen here
16:49
in this room
16:49
it's not going to happen
16:50
or at least not in a standard way
16:50
thats why LTSP's mission to work across distros is so important
16:50
and why it is important to keep gathering members from all of these projects
16:51shawnp0wers has quit IRC
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16:53
<vmlintu>
Is someone familiar how sunray does session transfers between the thin clients?
16:54
<coordinador>
only root can scan, the scanner is plugged in the server
16:55
<Gadi>
sunrays run the Xserver on the server
16:55yms has joined #ltsp
16:55
<Gadi>
it uses a virtual video driver to drive the client's videocard
16:56
tunneled through - guess what - their own protocol
16:57
personally, I am disappointed in X.org
16:57vagrantc_ has quit IRC
16:57
<yms>
client cannot initiate internet
16:57
<Gadi>
I think they totally dropped the ball on this one
16:58
<sepski>
coordinador, are there not a sane group you need to be a member of ?
16:58
<yms>
what do you mean?
16:59
<Gadi>
yms: I was going to ask you the same question
17:00
<yms>
initiating internet connection?
17:00
<Gadi>
no - what do you mean?
17:00
is your server connected to the internet?
17:01lucascoala has quit IRC
17:01
<yms>
is connected if l physically logged on
17:02
<coordinador>
coordinador, the users belongs to saned group
17:02
sepski, , the users belongs to saned group
17:02
<Gadi>
yms: I dont understand
17:02
you can log into the server, and not be able to get on the internet
17:02
<sepski>
and have re login'd ofcourse. well check permisions on your device.
17:03
<coordinador>
sepski, yes i relogged and cant scan
17:03
ill check the permissions
17:03
of device
17:03
<yms>
logged from client and no internet unless logged at the server
17:04
<coordinador>
sepski, which would be the route to device?
17:04
<Gadi>
yms: using a standard LTSP setup?
17:04
<yms>
yes
17:04
<sepski>
coordinador, check your scanner software ?
17:04
<Gadi>
so, you launch firefox from a thin client session, and you cannot go to google.com?
17:04
<coordinador>
ok, ill check there
17:05
<Gadi>
is that how you are checking it?
17:05
<yms>
exactly
17:05
<Gadi>
open a terminal window
17:05
and see if you can ping google.com
17:05
also, make sure you are not logged in at the server and the client at the same time as the same user
17:06
<yms>
if i cannot ping google.com?
17:07
<Gadi>
does it complain about unkown hostname?
17:07
or does the ping timeout?
17:07
<coordinador>
sepski, i use xsane, when i go to information i get : /usb/PSC_1600...
17:08
<yms>
thanks...i will try his another time...bye
17:09yms has quit IRC
17:09
<coordinador>
sepski, i did ls -l /dev/bus/usb/001 and i get crw-rw-r-- 1 root lp 189, 2 2009-10-27 19:03 003
17:10
<vmlintu>
I wonder if there would be any other way intercepting the X packets between client and server besides Xproxy..
17:10
<coordinador>
it could be the scanner i think
17:11
<sepski>
are your users member of the lp group as well ?
17:11
<- gone
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18:01
<dtrask>
Hey all....I need help....this is somewhat related to edubuntu as it is for Open1to1.org and the image that I create for school netbooks....
18:01
I have had schools complaining that students are creating "ad hoc" networks via network-manager and thus wreaking havoc on the school wireless network
18:01
does anyone know of a way (clean or hack...I'm desperate here) of disabling the ability to create...and/or connect to an ad-hoc wireless network?
18:06
<alkisg>
Don't give users access to the network manager settings?
18:06
(I think that's the group "netdev")
18:09
<dtrask>
alkisg: but do you think they'd still be able to join networks ok?
18:10
<alkisg>
dtrask: I'm not sure I understand your network setup
18:10
Are you talking about netbooks?
18:10
<dtrask>
alkisg: high school kids with netbooks
18:10
yes
18:10
<alkisg>
Ah
18:10
<dtrask>
open1to1.org
18:10
<alkisg>
I don't know what that is
18:10
Do *they* have root access to their netbooks?
18:11
<dtrask>
no
18:11
<alkisg>
Do you have lots of different connections? Or could you just create some networkmanager system connections for them, and only let them choose between them?
18:11
<dtrask>
ubuntu netbook remix....3 users....admin user....teacher....student.
18:11
alkisg: this is an image for users all over the world
18:12
I'm trying to disable it in the image for the student user account
18:12
<alkisg>
Ah, so they're *supposed* to be able to join networks...
18:13
So you want to let them create new connections, just not ad-hoc ones?
18:13
Or would the teacher/admin be responsible for allowing the student to join a network?
18:14
<dtrask>
kids should be able to join
18:14
most of the time SSID's would not be hidden
18:27* alkisg can only think of an if-up.d script that would check the wireless nic mode, and if it's ad-hoc it would put it back to managed mode...
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20:40
<jammcq>
hello friends
20:40
!seen sbalneav
20:40
<ltspbot>
jammcq: sbalneav was last seen in #ltsp 7 hours, 27 minutes, and 33 seconds ago: <sbalneav> be on tonight.
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21:32* vagrantc finally got to read gadi's rants earlier in the day
21:33
<jammcq>
yeah, gadi was in an "interesting" mode today
21:33
<vagrantc>
it's *good*
21:34
though i apparently missed anything after 2:37 pacific time
21:34
<jammcq>
hmm, that's about when I logged out.
21:57vagrantc has quit IRC
22:23
<sbalneav>
Evening all
22:23
<jammcq>
Scotty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
22:25
<sbalneav>
What was the substance of the rant?
22:26
Someone thumbnail it for me?
22:26
<jammcq>
he was talking about GDM removing XDMCP
22:26
and there's no real replacement
22:28
and he thinks LTSP should have a protocol for delivering a remote desktop, including the multimedia part
22:30
<sbalneav>
Umm, I thought we DO have a protocol for a remote desktop?
22:31
Unless I'm missing something, isn't that what we do?
22:39
<Ryan52>
ssh is cheating.
22:42
<sbalneav>
How is ssh'ing into a server and launching a remote desktop "cheating"?
22:42
I'm interested.
22:45
<jammcq>
ssh doesn't replace GDM
22:45
there's really no good gui remote desktop solution
22:46
<sbalneav>
wha?
22:46
<Ryan52>
sbalneav: read Gadi's rant :P
22:46
<jammcq>
sbalneav: wha wha?
22:47
<sbalneav>
We replaced gdm with ldm.
22:47
<jammcq>
he's saying that a "real" remote desktop protocol should handle auth,display,audio,video,devices, etc
22:48
ldm isn't perfect yet.
22:49* sbalneav shakes head.
22:49
<jammcq>
I don't think he's entirely wrong
22:50
<sbalneav>
yeah, ok
22:50
<jammcq>
as for xdmcp, it was due to die a horrible death
22:50foxbuntu has joined #ltsp
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22:52
<evon>
I am a serious networking and server newb and a linux novice. Here's what I would like to do: at my workplace I am able to use my office computer to access a remote desktop at the head office. I can also access this desktop from any computer i choose. I would like to set up a similar system at my church but i am exploring the possibility of doing this with a linux-based server.
22:52
is this possible?
22:53
<sbalneav>
Sure. You could do that with something like VNC or NX
22:54
<evon>
sbalneav: what does vnc and NX stand for?
22:54
sbalneav: i am a serious newb sorry
22:54
<jammcq>
vnc is horrible for actually trying to do any real work.
22:54
vnc == virtual network console
22:54
or virtual network computer
22:54
something like that
22:55
<evon>
jammcq: ya the IT guy at work had no luck getting VNC working either and they have windows servers
22:55
jammcq: so what is NX?
22:55
<sbalneav>
same thing as vnc
22:56
just a bit more efficient.
22:56
<jammcq>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NX_technology
22:56
<evon>
jammcq: also does using a linux server for what i want to do make things too complicated? Am i just better off going strait windows?
22:57
<jammcq>
I have no idea what you are trying to do, so I can't comment on whether Linux is a good choice
22:57
<evon>
I am a serious networking and server newb and a linux novice. Here's what I would like to do: at my workplace I am able to use my office computer to access a remote desktop at the head office. I can also access this desktop from any computer i choose. I would like to set up a similar system at my church but i am exploring the possibility of doing this with a linux-based server.
22:57
that's what i want to do ;-)
22:58
<jammcq>
nx might be a good solution for you
22:58
<foxbuntu>
evon, I suggest going into detail about what applications or use cases the need for the Terminal Server would be
22:58
:)
22:59
<evon>
foxubuntu: i need to be able to print to remote printers, MS office, Outlook, Explorer etc
23:00
<Ryan52>
evon: "MS office, Outlook, Explorer etc" don't run on linux.
23:00
so..
23:00
you're trying to connect from linux computers?
23:01
<evon>
no windows computers
23:01
<Ryan52>
okay..
23:01
I'm confused how linux is relevant here?
23:01
you mean using a linux computer in the middle of the two windows computers? so you connect from a windows to a linux to a windows?
23:01
if so, leave out the linux computer and go directly, there's no reason.
23:02
<evon>
ryan25: i would like the benefits of having the security and stability of a linux server but everyone in my church only uses windows. I was wondering if there is some way to allow the 2 to work together
23:03
Ryan52: i want people to be able to access a remote desktop from their home computers that have the aforementioned programs on it. in addition to being able to share files
23:03
<Ryan52>
ah.
23:03
<foxbuntu>
evon, I would highly suggest for that use case to just setup a Windows Terminal Server
23:04
evon, while I highly advocate the use of Linux, doing so just because its "Linux" is not always a good thing
23:05
<evon>
foxubuntu: ok that's what I thought. However, if i just wanted a file server, linux would be a better option?
23:06
foxubuntu: people would be able to easily access these files remotely?
23:07
<foxbuntu>
evon, what do you mean by remote?
23:08
<evon>
foxubuntuL: remote = being able to access files on the server from my home, office or on the street as long as i have an internet connection
23:08
<foxbuntu>
evon, managing a Linux server takes the skills of managing a Linux server if you get my drift, now don't get me wrong if you want to learn and take the time to do it, there are tons of people including myself that will gladly help answer your questions
23:09
evon, that is a very complicated issue
23:09
evon, there are many ways of doing it, but again, it will take time and work
23:10
evon, I do not want you to feel discouraged from using Linux to accomplish these things, but I do want to be clear that its not a simple task
23:10
<evon>
foxubuntu: so you're saying i would would have to learn a lot to take on a task like that? right now I'm just trying to figure out if it's worth it
23:12
<foxbuntu>
evon, yes, you will need to learn allot, so if you are willing to put in the time and learn, I say go for it, but if you are looking for a simple 'Plug-n-Play' type solution, Linux or Windows aside, there isnt one
23:12
er...
23:13
I shouldn't say there isn't one...
23:13
<evon>
foxubuntu: well considering the people who will be using the workstations haven't even heard of linux and my lack of experience with servers and networking, i may have to go the windows route
23:13
<foxbuntu>
I don't know enough about the requirements and restrictions to make that assumption
23:14
evon, thats likely the safe way of going about it
23:14
<evon>
foxubuntu. well that sux. i was hoping to save my church some money
23:14
<foxbuntu>
evon, however usually in those situations, Windows is nearly as big of an unknown as anything else
23:15
evon, join #foxmediasystems
23:15
<evon>
foxubuntu: what is that?
23:15
<foxbuntu>
its a channel I use for my business
23:15
<evon>
foxubuntu: what will i find there?
23:16
<foxbuntu>
I might be able to help
23:16
outside the topic of this channel
23:16
<evon>
ok i've joined
23:18johnny22 has joined #ltsp
23:19
<johnny22>
test
23:19
anybody here using stgraber ppa?
23:19coordinador has joined #ltsp
23:19
<johnny22>
it failed on finding the ubuntu ldm theme
23:19
<coordinador>
hi
23:21
<johnny22>
ah.. looks like it was missing an s, trying again
23:23
<coordinador>
johnny22, you are the johnny22 from the afternoon, maybe around 18:00 ?
23:23
*are you
23:23
<johnny22>
i was never johnny22
23:23
only johnny
23:26
roundcube == great webmail client
23:30yanu has quit IRC
23:32yanu has joined #ltsp
23:47
<coordinador>
johnny22, ok johnny, did you finally resolve the issue with server drives in desktop of users?
23:48
<johnny22>
no.. .. i just ignored it
23:48
i don't really care
23:48
i think it's no big deal
23:48
i noticed it.. spent 10 minutes trying to fix it.. realized it was not worth spending more time on. and moved on
23:48
then i got an ltsp only server.. where i hope they see all drives :)
23:50
<coordinador>
i did put a screensaver with some intrincated parts, and then i made very little the icons and i finally put there in that intrincated part so icons are camuflated now
23:50
as you see, my english isnt my main language
23:51evon has quit IRC
23:52
<johnny22>
well.. i didn't think the issue was worth that much effort
23:53
<coordinador>
the situation is that the users are total newbies so the icon must be maintained to minimum
23:53
maybe 2 or 3 (open office, browser, home)
23:54
its like a cybercafe for digital alphabetization
23:54
for low resources people