IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 2 September 2009   (all times are UTC)

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00:15
<alkisg>
Good morning
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00:26
<elias_a>
alkisg: Is your morning good in spite of ending vacation? ;-)
00:27
<alkisg>
Heh :) Fortunately I won't be working for the first 2 days (sssshh) so it's a fine morning after all :D
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05:06
<garymc>
Hi anyone know if a PCI card can go in a PCI X slot?
05:06
<alkisg>
No
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05:22
<nubae_>
alkisg, no u dont know , or no its not possible ;-)
05:22
:p
05:22
<garymc>
it is possible
05:23
<nubae_>
ah... good to know :-)
05:23
<garymc>
found out... but good question nubae_
05:23
<alkisg>
nubae_: how could I possibly answer to "Hi anyone know"? I wouldn't know if anyone knows :)
05:24
So yup, I don't think it's possible, since PCI-X is lane-based...
05:24
Ooops misread - sorry - ignore me
05:28* nubae_ thinks alkisg is having a tough day...
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07:27
<_UsUrPeR_>
sbalneav: ping?
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08:47
<sbalneav>
_UsUrPeR_: pong
08:47
Morning all
08:47
<_UsUrPeR_>
:D morning
08:48
so I got cluster to start, but I think my jury rigging was not quite... proper
08:49
<sbalneav>
Are you asking me about cluster?
08:49
<_UsUrPeR_>
yeah
08:49
<sbalneav>
I'm not your man for that... stgraber is.
08:49
<_UsUrPeR_>
whoops
08:49
<sbalneav>
Or are you talking about the simple stuff that's built into ldm?
08:49
<_UsUrPeR_>
you guys and your s-starting names...
08:50
<sbalneav>
Yeah, we're all one big anonymous amorphous mass.
08:50
<_UsUrPeR_>
:)
08:54
stgraber: ping?
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10:07
<dmarkey>
does Gideon Romm hang out here atall?
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10:07
<sbalneav>
dmarkey: Yes he does
10:07
His nick is Gadi
10:07
<dmarkey>
cool
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10:08
<dmarkey>
on a seperate note, does python get installed in the chroot by default?
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10:08
<sbalneav>
It should.
10:08
jetpipe relies on it.
10:09
<dmarkey>
cool
10:15* Gadi waves to dmarkey
10:15
<Gadi>
good morning, all
10:19
<sbalneav>
Morning gadi
10:20
<Gadi>
!s
10:20
<ltspbot>
Gadi: "s" is Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
10:20
<Gadi>
ah... I feel like I haven't done that in a while
10:20
:)
10:21
<sbalneav>
heh
10:21
<Gadi>
sbalneav: I'm glad you know my real name :)
10:21
must have slipped out when you got me drunk those countless times
10:21
:)
10:21
<dmarkey>
Gadi: hello
10:21
you're the "rdesktop guy" , right?
10:21
<Gadi>
hey!
10:22
sorta kinda
10:22
:)
10:22
how can I help?
10:22
<dmarkey>
do you do usb device reditection?
10:22
<Gadi>
I do
10:22
<dmarkey>
have any problems with it?
10:22
<Gadi>
well, we have been working some kinks out in the newest versions of the approach
10:23
have you been following the Ubuntu Wiki?
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10:23
<dmarkey>
no, i worked on a project about 6 months ago, LTSP + rdesktop _ USB
10:23
had some complete stalls
10:23
<Gadi>
!RDP-localdev
10:23
<ltspbot>
Gadi: "RDP-localdev" is when I want to use local devices in an LTSP rdesktop session. See: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/RdesktopLocaldev
10:24
<Gadi>
that might help
10:24
thats the path we're trying to promote upstream
10:24
<dmarkey>
0.5.13 , must try that one
10:24
if you got that working you'll blow SunRay out of the water
10:24
<Gadi>
yuck - sunray
10:25
<dmarkey>
well, usb performance anyway
10:25
rubbish
10:25
<Gadi>
I have it working great on our commercial products, but we are based on an older version of LTSP5, and I have been trying to port our approach upstream
10:25
I think on Ubuntu, the above works quite well
10:26
we were trying to iron out some issues on debian and such
10:26
<dmarkey>
no stalls? usb ejection/insertion work ok?
10:26
<Gadi>
sure
10:26
we use ltspfs for everything
10:26
so, you just pull it out
10:26
:)
10:26
<nubae_>
Gadi, did u get my mail?
10:26
<Gadi>
nubae_: I did
10:27
<nubae_>
great
10:27
<Gadi>
I forwarded it on to shipping
10:27
<dmarkey>
cool, well rdesktop completely stalled sometimes, probably because the mount point went away
10:27
<Gadi>
will let you know what they tell me
10:27
dmarkey: define stall
10:28
you mean you pull it and your session freezes?
10:28
<dmarkey>
pull out, then try to navigate to the mapped drive
10:28
then a session free\e
10:29
freeze
10:29
<Gadi>
what were you mapping?
10:30
<dmarkey>
hmm.. cant remember, /media/root, or /root/media?
10:30
<Gadi>
hmm...
10:30
let me know if it happens again
10:31
<dmarkey>
this was 6 months ago mine, could be much better
10:31
mind*
10:31
<Gadi>
maybe we should keep the mountpoint from being deleted
10:31
I don't think I have seen that
10:31
<dmarkey>
possibly, i'll test again shortly
10:31
<Gadi>
great!
10:31
<dmarkey>
do you work on rdesktop itself?
10:31
<Gadi>
let me know
10:32
only in a cursory way - not directly
10:32
<dmarkey>
oh ok
10:32
is it stagnating slightly?
10:32
<Gadi>
well, rdesktop is mostly the Cendio guys, I believe
10:33
maybe they have human resource issues
10:33
<dmarkey>
it needs to catch up with the new RDP5/6 stuff
10:33* Gadi nods
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10:33
<dmarkey>
uttsc is making good headway
10:33
<Gadi>
we will most likely take a more active role in the project soon, as we are getting some pressure to implement FIPS compliance
10:33
<dmarkey>
FIPS?
10:34* dmarkey looks it up
10:34
<Gadi>
its a US gvmt security thing
10:34
<dmarkey>
who's putting pressure on?
10:34
<Gadi>
the US gvmt
10:34
:)
10:34
<dmarkey>
on your company?
10:34
<Gadi>
yeah - we sell our products into the US gvmt
10:35
and there is a growing need for FIPS compliance on everything
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10:35
<dmarkey>
so, thats means RDP5?
10:35
<Gadi>
RDP6
10:35
RDP6 introduced added security levels
10:35
one of which is FIPS
10:35
which rdesktop does not currently support
10:36
<dmarkey>
oh, you may give Cendio a big wad of cash then :)
10:36
<Gadi>
its open source - we may develop it here
10:36
and contribute it back in
10:36
:)
10:37
I guess it all comes down to what's cheaper
10:37
<rjune_wrk>
Gadi: fips == fubared instructions per second?
10:37
<dmarkey>
yeh, improve multimedia perfromance while you're at it
10:37
<Gadi>
hehe
10:38* Gadi starts passing the collection plate ;)
10:38* dmarkey puts 1c in
10:39* CAN-o-SPAM takes 1c out ;)
10:40
<dmarkey>
CAN-o-SPAM: do you do that at mass?
10:40
<Gadi>
all right! now I can give rdesktop my 2 cents ;)
10:40
<CAN-o-SPAM>
haha no no ... it's just all fun and games in here :-D
10:42
<dmarkey>
Gadi: do you have any complaints about multimedia performance?
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10:43
<Gadi>
Multimedia is always an achilles heal of terminal server solutions. Most customers implement thin clients in areas where multimedia performance is not a requirement
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10:44
<Gadi>
in high security areas, sound is usually disabled entirely with the ports hot-glued, so as to prevent a listening bug from being inserted
10:44
its a completely different world
10:45
<dmarkey>
oh
10:45
<Gadi>
at the same time, companies like Cisco and VMWare are using gstreamer-based tricks to improve multimedia on Linux clients
10:45
<dmarkey>
out pilot was in a university
10:45
our*
10:45
<Gadi>
so, there are improvements being made
10:45
not always in open source
10:45
<dmarkey>
sunray has good MP4 performance
10:46
<Gadi>
also, multimedia in terminal services is a multi-factor problem
10:46
the local video card plays a heavy role
10:46
<dmarkey>
really?
10:46
<Gadi>
most definitely
10:46
<dmarkey>
since when?
10:46
<Gadi>
a good local video card can make a night-and-day difference in multimedia
10:47
with proper drivers
10:47
since always
10:47
a thin client still needs to render the video
10:47
<dmarkey>
i never thought it was even called
10:47
<_UsUrPeR_>
I testing out Karmic. Is there any intention of using via's proprietary video drivers for their chipsets?
10:47
<Gadi>
by local I mean local to the client
10:48
dmarkey - run this experiment
10:48
run rdesktop on a thin client
10:48
in the session, play a video full screen
10:48
then, open another window with, say, Notepad
10:49
and cover half the screen with it
10:49
<sbalneav>
_UsUrPeR_: No idea. They may not be allowing anyone to distribute them
10:49
<Gadi>
so only half of the video is showing
10:49
<sbalneav>
I was under the impression that the OpenChrome drivers were better anyway.
10:49
<Gadi>
you will notice that the half that is showing gets an immediate performance boost
10:49
that is because less of the image is changing
10:50
which means that X has less to update
10:50
<dmarkey>
yes
10:50
oh
10:50
<_UsUrPeR_>
sbalneav: the via drivers are the only ones capable of handling dual-monitor output
10:50
<Gadi>
and so it can update it faster
10:50
<dmarkey>
so completely server independant
10:50
<Gadi>
not completely
10:50
its multifactor
10:51
because windows allocates memory to buffer the images
10:51
but, the bottleneck is usually the network, the protocol, the amount of data going down to the client, and then the speed with which X can render it
10:52
with proper drivers and a good chipset, you can greatly reduce the rendering bottleneck
10:52
and we haven't even started talking about audio
10:52
:)
10:52
<dmarkey>
yea
10:52
sunray now renders MP4 localy on the client
10:52
<Gadi>
we had an intern here that ran a whole bunch of tests on the subject
10:53
I should dig up his results
10:53
<dmarkey>
Gadi: that would be good
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10:53
<Gadi>
right - as does Citrix and VMWare
10:53
using gstreamer
10:53
and the proper client-side codecs
10:53
you'll find the protocol guys always follow the same tricks ;)
10:53
<dmarkey>
im sure we could coerce VLC into doing what we want
10:54
<Gadi>
nah- gstreamer's a better approach
10:54
<dmarkey>
is that not proprietory?
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10:54
<Gadi>
gstreamer? no
10:54
gstreamer's open and shipped with every distro
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10:55
<Gadi>
the plugin to make it use the codecs is usually proprietary
10:55
:)
10:55
<dmarkey>
oh
10:55
<Gadi>
but, since everybody's doing it - it can't be too hard
10:55
<dmarkey>
so, what would sit on the c lient side
10:55
<Gadi>
gstreamer libs
10:55
and codecs for the video formats
10:55
(which may also be proprietary)
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10:56
<dmarkey>
ok, and, rdesktop would hook into the libs?
10:56
<Gadi>
yup
10:56
through a vitual channel
10:56
*virtual
10:56
same mechanism used for localdev and smart cards
10:57
<dmarkey>
cool
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11:00
<dmarkey>
how about flash
11:00
<Gadi>
I think flash is a different beast on any distro
11:01
<dmarkey>
can that be decoded client side?
11:01
<Gadi>
I'm not sure
11:01
<dmarkey>
the sunray beta has "improvements" in that area
11:01
<Gadi>
most flash, though, tends to be small and web-based rather than fullscreeen
11:02
so, on a proper network with good clients, it may not be as bad - but it is still a harder nut to crack
11:02
that's why we created Local Apps
11:02
:)
11:02
something a SunRay cant do
11:03
<dmarkey>
maybe you could use npviewer
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11:04
<Gadi>
maybe - brb
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11:21
<nubae>
Hey Gadi, how long u think it'll take for those things to get here?
11:23
<Gadi>
prolly depends on how they're shipped
11:23
I'll know more when I get a response
11:23
<nubae>
yeah, so might expect a week or so I guess
11:23
ok
11:24* nubae is itching to show this can work
11:24
<nubae>
can imagine just under a million units running with this?
11:25
oh... I have some pics of the current (old) desktop/net setup
11:27
<dmarkey>
Gadi: done any terminal server scaling tests?
11:31
sessions per core, etc
11:34
<nubae>
http://speeches.ofset.org/jrfernandez/2009/ginebra_glx/#%2827%29
11:34
that building in thre is where I work
11:34
<Gadi>
sorry - business keeps getting in the way of good chatting :)
11:34
dmarkey: if you're talking WTS, microsoft has plenty of scaling docs
11:34
in the end, it's a black art, much like desktop scaling
11:35
<dmarkey>
really? where
11:35
<Gadi>
microsoft.com
11:35
<dmarkey>
:)
11:35
<Gadi>
wow - can't believe I posted that in #ltsp
11:35
I think the chatroom might implode
11:35
<dmarkey>
in our project, we switched to chrome, big difference
11:35
<nubae>
if u keep clicking forwards in that presentation u can see the classrooms
11:36
strangely enough, there is mention of thin clients (clientes ligeros) even though we have non
11:37
by 2012 every school in Andalucia must be run by us :-)
11:38
<Gadi>
cool! imagine the aliens you guys will meet when you install seti@home
11:39
<nubae>
We still get cases where some headmaster's son has told him ubuntu is that unreliable crappy software that poor people run, and have gone and installed unlicensed windows on every computer in their school.
11:40
there was recently an article in a newspaper here where some guy got fired because he had ubuntu on his laptop he used for work
11:40
but get this, it was his own laptop
11:41
<alkisg>
Is that for real? Any links?
11:41
<nubae>
and the reason was his boss had gone home one evening and talked to the family about how work was, mentioning this crazy ubuntu thing one of his employees was running
11:41
yep, I'll pass it to u in a sec, though its in Spanish
11:42
The boss's 15 year old son said
11:42
ah... ubuntu is unreliable, crashes all the time and can easily loose data
11:43
<alkisg>
Heh... and that cost him his job? On his own laptop?!!!
11:43
<nubae>
so the boss, worrying, understandably, about his company's data told the user to either stop using Ubuntu and put a proper operating system that didnt destroy data on it
11:43
or else
11:43
imagine...
11:44
<Gadi>
sounds like a target market for all the Linux distros that make the desktop look like a Windows desktop
11:44
:)
11:44
<nubae>
the worrying thing about this story is the reason why...
11:44
and its surely because to the 15 year old boy, since it wont run direct X 10
11:44
and crysis
11:44
its unreliable, looses data, etc etc
11:44
<alkisg>
Yeah and he heard it from a reliable source, someone at a forum.. :(
11:44
<nubae>
now let me go get the link
11:45
or an uncle who'se friend works for microsoft
11:46* alkisg thinks it's unbelievable that noone yet created a GUI for mass user importing/creating...
11:47
<sbalneav>
GNU/Linux will never, ever get anywhere trying to mimic windows. It's either going to have to stand on it's own merits, or die on the vine.
11:47
alkisg: They have.
11:47
/bin/sh
11:47
/usr/bin/awk
11:47
<alkisg>
Where?!!! Grrrrr :(
11:47
<sbalneav>
etc :)
11:47
<nubae>
http://www.xeduced.com/2009/08/26/despedido-por-negarse-a-desinstalar-linux/
11:47
run it through google translate or something
11:47
<alkisg>
Yeah I know sudo vi /etc/passwd is all I need :)
11:47
Ty nubae
11:48
<sbalneav>
Well, what are you going to use as the source document?
11:48
<alkisg>
E.g. a .csv file
11:48
<sbalneav>
Formatted how?
11:48
<alkisg>
*It's not for me* it's for other teachers that ask about this
11:48
It shouldn't matter - the GUI should have an option to rearrange columns...
11:49
<nubae>
sbalneav: die in vine (is that like a mix between vain and the program wine)?
11:49
<sbalneav>
And how do you generate usernames from persons names?
11:49
<nubae>
cuase that almost makes sense :-) (grin)
11:49
<sbalneav>
No, die on the vine, like grapes.
11:49
<alkisg>
That should also be done automatically :) and enable the user to edit them before the user creation, if desired
11:49
There's a perl module that generates usernames from real names. But nothing with a gui...
11:50
<sbalneav>
Really? So everyone in the world should use MY userid method that I user here at legalaid? 5 character serids?
11:50
See the problem?
11:50
<nubae>
right... I'm still looking at the pun of it... ok... maybe that was just too far fetched....
11:50
<alkisg>
No, the perl module has a lot of options there for every admin
11:50
Those should be exposed in the gui settings
11:50
<sbalneav>
There's about 50,000 ways you could do it all "automatically"
11:50
Every site's got their own policy.
11:51
<alkisg>
Sure, but if e.g. 10 of them were satisfied, the other, "weird old guys" could do it manually :)
11:51* alkisg ducks to avoid the cane
11:51
<sbalneav>
So, write one. What's stopping you?
11:51
<alkisg>
time :(
11:51* nubae looks at the temperature gauge outside, sees its a 43, and rules out leaving the house...
11:51
<sbalneav>
Awwwwwwwwww
11:51
No sympathy from me WHATSOEVER
11:51
<nubae>
43 celcius
11:52* alkisg hugs good-old sbalneav :)
11:52
<alkisg>
(which is about the same as me, I imagine... :))
11:52
<sbalneav>
Suck it up buttercup: you want it, YOU write it. :)
11:52
<alkisg>
*age
11:53
<sbalneav>
Write me up a spec.
11:53
<nubae>
so did u guys read the article?
11:53
<sbalneav>
I can hammer together something for you in python and glade.
11:53
<nubae>
someone should actually post that to slashdot or something
11:53
its pretty newsworthy in English
11:53
<sbalneav>
I'm haveing to learn it to add group appy to Sabayon anyway.
11:54
Which, BTW, I've started.
11:54
<alkisg>
Nah, I'll do it along with the user manager I'm imagining, in pygtk/glade etc. But I'd really appreciate it if you could help in the first steps there, cause I'm a newbie to pygtk
11:54
<sbalneav>
I'm a newb too, but I'll gladly give you a hand.
11:55
<nubae>
pygtk is soooo easy
11:55
is lovely
11:55
<sbalneav>
If anyone's interested:
11:55
http://github.com/sbalneav/sabayon/tree/master
11:55
They can follow group apply progress in my sabayon branch
11:56
<nubae>
it allows people who know very little about oop to code anyway (like me)
11:56
<sbalneav>
That's a branch of the upstream repo. So it won't build "out of the box" on anything. Some twiddling needed.
11:57
<ogra>
sbalneav, you are aware that all upstream branches of gnome SW are mirrored into bzr on LP ?
11:57
https://code.launchpad.net/~vcs-imports/sabayon/main
11:58
https://code.launchpad.net/sabayon might be intresting too
11:58
<sbalneav>
No, I wasn't, but federico upstream asked that if I was going to have my own branch, it be in git.
11:59
<ogra>
ah
11:59
poor you
11:59
<sbalneav>
Not really.
12:00
<ogra>
git is the worst fucked up crap i ever had to use
12:00
<sbalneav>
I'm equally bad at bzr as I am at git. So I'm equally confused in both :)
12:00
<ogra>
and i still have to from time to time
12:00
<Gadi>
here we go...
12:00
<nubae>
what???
12:00
git rocks
12:00
<sbalneav>
Gadi: What's the right term? Oy Vey?
12:01
<nubae>
ogra: why dont u like it?
12:01
<ogra>
git lives under rocks probably :)
12:01
because its unusable ?
12:01
<Gadi>
sbalneav: you bring tears to my eyes
12:02
<nubae>
bah... that's not a real reason... clearly lots of people use and like it, so u must have some other more profound dislike of it
12:02
<ogra>
nubae, if i want to do any slightly advanced thing with it, i have to learn latin, the secret git users handshake and spend a month of reading contradicting docs online
12:03
<Gadi>
perhaps he resent software with derogatory names: git, gimp, ...
12:03
<nubae>
:-) ok yeah its a bit complex
12:03
<ogra>
heh
12:03
complex is a very friendly word ... i have a lot others
12:03* Gadi looks forward to using schmuck and bastard
12:03
<ogra>
haha
12:03
<nubae>
but for a supercow like yourself u'd think it would have a certain appeal
12:04
<ogra>
no, i was asked several times to help out with kernel stuff
12:04
i had very good patches etc
12:04
but i completely refuse to use git... so i'll never become a kernel guy
12:05
<Gadi>
I hope that doesn't make you a git?
12:05
<ogra>
try something simple like "bzr push $ssh_server/branchname" with git
12:05
<nubae>
so what was it thast specifically made u dislike it?
12:05
<ogra>
or try to find out how to do that :)
12:05
<nubae>
git add * then git commit -m "this was my upload"
12:06
<ogra>
doesnt work
12:06
<nubae>
but more complex stuff like creating sub branches and stuff I dont do
12:06
<ogra>
that above stuff wouldnt upload it to a ssh server holding a webdir others can branch from
12:07
<nubae>
I use git.sugarlabs.org quite a bit, nad haven't gotten too upset with it yet
12:07
<sbalneav>
OK, heading out for lunch. Here's hoping that when ogra and nubae get done with their git vs bzr battle , we can move on to vi vs emacs.
12:07
<ogra>
heh, no i'm done
12:07
<nubae>
well anyone can just clone a branch... and work from that, not sure what u wanna do
12:07
<ogra>
i know there is no way to do what i want with git and that i wont spend the year it needs to even remotely understand it ...
12:08
<nubae>
ok, u know better than I, I am a newbie with all of this, I just didnt get such a negative vibe from it
12:08
<ogra>
i wasted enough time on reading docs about it for months and still didnt get it to do what i want (easy tasks with bzr)
12:08
so if nubae is happy with it, be it ... i wont touch it :)
12:09
nubae, it simply annoys me massively if a tool stands in my way and stops me from doing my work
12:09
<nubae>
of course, I get that
12:10
bzr is indeed nice, but probably has a similar learning curve for a newbie
12:10
<ogra>
if i have to use it today i ask the person that made me use it for the exact runes
12:10
very simple :)
12:11
usually that ends up in like 20 different commands i have to type in whilke bzr would have one i even understand from its meaning :)
12:11
i like to be a magican but i want my spells to be memorizable ;)
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12:17
<nubae>
why is it, that after so many years, it is still so hard to get binary ati or nvidia drivers to work on Ubuntu?
12:19
<ogra>
??
12:19
you mark the checkbox, wait a moment, reboot and be done ?
12:19
<nubae>
yeah if only
12:20* ogra hasnt seen it work more complicated on ubuntu-desktop since yeras
12:20
<nubae>
I have 2 options in hardware drivers, nvidia 173, and nvidia 185 (recommended)
12:20
<ogra>
*years
12:20
<nubae>
neither are enabled
12:20
<ogra>
use the recommended one
12:20
<nubae>
I try to enable one
12:21
<ogra>
i wonder why you have two though
12:21
<nubae>
it says its done what it should, but nothing changes
12:21
I restart
12:21
nothing changes
12:21
<ogra>
thats a default install, no tweaks, foreign software sources etc ?
12:21
<nubae>
This was from a totally fresh install
12:21
but it is karmic
12:21
<ogra>
strange
12:21
heh
12:21
dont expect it to work on development releases at all
12:21
<nubae>
maybe something with karmic's X?
12:22
yeah I know, I always run into this problem
12:22
<ogra>
the kernel is in total flux, nobody cares for the binary drivers before kernel freeze
12:22
<nubae>
have to compile modules by hand
12:22
ok..
12:22
I thought kernel freeze already happened
12:22
<alkisg>
nubae: try sudo dpkg-reconfigure dkms from the command line to see what happens
12:23
<nubae>
ah well, virtualbox has similar issues
12:23
u reminded me with the dkms command
12:23
* Running DKMS auto installation service for kernel 2.6.31-8-server * nvidia (185.18.36)... [fail]
12:23vagrantc has joined #ltsp
12:24
<nubae>
its like ogra says...
12:24
gonna have to manually compile modules
12:24
<alkisg>
or downgrade your kernel a little
12:24
<ogra>
wont work either i guess
12:24
dkms is only doing what you would do by hand anyway
12:24
<nubae>
nope downgrading kernel I've tried
12:25
<alkisg>
I think I'm ok now with nvidia and 2.6.31-9.29
12:25
<ogra>
i'm pretty sure nvidia didnt release anything for a pre-release kernel
12:25
alkisg, using -server or -generic ?
12:26
if it works its a matter of luck, usually nvidia only releases drivers for released kernels, .31 isnt released
12:26
<nubae>
well if u are ok with a later kernel...
12:26
then whats with mine?
12:26
<alkisg>
-generic - but I've been updating my karmic partition with chroot apt-get dist-upgrade, and I haven't booted it for some weeks, so maybe an older kernel used to work
12:26
Yeah it only works half of the time. 1 week working, the next not working etc
12:27
nouveau and vbox drivers weren't better, either...
12:28
<nubae>
vbox in the repo is ancient anyway
12:28
<ogra>
could very well be that the -server kernel lacks the right DRI settings
12:28Wa11yBa11s has joined #ltsp
12:28
<nubae>
also I'm on 64 bit
12:29
<ogra>
-generic has PAE enabled in karmic, no need to use the -server one explicitly, unless you have 64 CPUs or 10TB or RAM
12:29
<alkisg>
Ah. I don't know why, but I *never* used an 64bit os!
12:29
<ogra>
yeah, 64bit might play a role as well
12:30
<alkisg>
"-generic has PAE enabled in karmic" ==> nice news :)
12:33
When creating a user, what are the "correct" default groups to add him to?
12:33spectra has joined #ltsp
12:34
<alkisg>
users-admin uses different defaults from adduser
12:35
<ogra>
and the debian-installer user-setup has the list :)
12:36garymc has quit IRC
12:36
<ogra>
(i dont know the list from the top of my head, look at the source)
12:36
<alkisg>
Sure, but would *that* be the correct list?
12:36
<ogra>
thats the default list used by d-i and ubiquity
12:37
adduser should usually be updated alongside these two though
12:37
<alkisg>
I think d-i creates "admins" though, not "desktop users" (using the terminology that users-admin uses)
12:37
<ogra>
that only differs in a single group
12:37
<alkisg>
So they can use "sudo", they can create network connections etc
12:38
users-admin even references some groups that don't exist anymore
12:38
<ogra>
might be
12:41
i see: adm dialout fax cdrom tape audio dip video plugdev scanner fuse
12:41
looks ok to me
12:42artista_frustrad has quit IRC
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12:50
<nubae>
man... ubuntu really has an antiquated user management system
12:51
<ogra>
adduser ?
12:52
<nubae>
if you compare it to Fedora or opensuse, makes u wonder what they're doing
12:52
<ogra>
invent something better :)
12:52
<nubae>
talking about the gui
12:52
<ogra>
we looked at fedoras
12:52
and the UI team didnt find it feasable
12:52
<nubae>
and associated tools to adduser
12:52
how come?
12:52
<ogra>
usability
12:53
they do thousands of usability tests
12:53
with computer illiterate users
12:53
<nubae>
well, true, if u have no user management its bound to be easier :p
12:53
<ogra>
and while they agree with you there is nothing better yet
12:53
so they went the "sucks least" route
12:54
we have a design team since a year, i guess they'll get to that too at some point
12:54
<nubae>
yeah lets hope some opensource shizz makes something awsome
12:54
<ogra>
working hand in hand with the usability guys doing upstream work of new apps
12:54
<nubae>
whizz even
12:54
not shizz
12:54
lol
12:55
<ogra>
look at karmics UNR .. the desing team spent most of their time implementing stuff for it this cycle
12:55
plus the new splashless boot that will come in karmic
12:56
<nubae>
karmic seems to have a ton of new stuff
12:56
<vagrantc>
splashless?
12:57
<ogra>
vagrantc, well, no usplash anymore (apart from the poor slow arches like armel)
12:58
there are new splashes where you had black screens before though
12:58
<nubae>
btw.,... I created this educational app, am just uploading to launchpad, anyone care to try it out ant tell me what they think?
12:59
<ogra>
vagrantc, i have seen the new bootprocess ... if you boot in 10-15sec usplash totally isnt needed
13:00
<nubae>
oh, u can import a git repo into launchpad, neato
13:00* vagrantc has never been happy with most splash implementations
13:00
<ogra>
there is the new xsplash ...
13:00
its hooks in where X shows the black screen usually
13:00
<vagrantc>
which, on a really fast boot, should be good enough
13:01vvinet has quit IRC
13:01
<ogra>
so the future bootprocess of ubuntu will be like: 5s initrmafs and kernel ... X comes up then ... Xsplash until gdm
13:06vvinet has joined #ltsp
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13:13
<bieb>
CAN-o-SPAM: you here?
13:16
<pem725>
how would I setup a cli application to be a local app? I need the blackberry charger program bcharge available on my clients.
13:16
the local app needs access to the usb ports.
13:18
<alkisg>
If it doesn't have a .desktop file, you'd need to create one, but other than that, why would it be different from other local apps?
13:19
<pem725>
I don't know. I did apt-get in the chroot but it does not recognize any plugged in usb device - particularly a blackberry.
13:20
perhaps it is something about accessing the local usb ports that is hanging it up.
13:20lns_ has joined #ltsp
13:22
<lns_>
Has anyone thought of implementing ddns directly into distros' ltsp setup? Or would this be considered outside the scope entirely?
13:22
<sbalneav>
No, and no
13:24
If someone wants to implement Dynamic DNS, I could see it being useful for some people.
13:26
<lns_>
I definitely think it would be good to have as default.. would save in having to do static dhcp assignments, which still only give you the IP without having to mess with hosts/dns on another level..hmm
13:26
anyway...how's everyone doing
13:27
<nubae>
I take it this is why u aren't too happy with git or kernel work: There’s one significant limitation in this public beta: it won’t yet import Linux kernel branches. Jelmer, who has done much of the work on bzr-git, explains:
13:30
can someone please let me know how I'm doing with my python edu app, its just the admin interface right now to create the edu quizzes, but should works quite well... need to get it with git right now though, as I figure out how to gitorize launchpas with git-bzr
13:31
git clone git://git.sugarlabs.org/pyclic/mainline.git
13:31
pretty please take a look at let me know
13:31
its worth a look... really...
13:31
it is
13:31
:-)
13:32
<lns_>
nubae: i would if i were versed in git :) maybe you can assist
13:32
<sbalneav>
lns_: I wouldn't want it as default.
13:33
<nubae>
just run the command as above
13:33
nothing else needed
13:33
that just pulls down the files
13:33
<lns_>
nubae: no compiling?
13:33* lns_ is an svn n00b ;)
13:34
<lns_>
ah - which python do i run?
13:34
<nubae>
to install git sudo apt-get install git-core
13:35
<lns_>
nubae: already done
13:35
<nubae>
just python pyclic.py
13:35
<lns_>
k
13:35
ooooo
13:35
:)
13:35
<nubae>
I guess I should have uploaded an example... I have neat one of the solar system
13:35
anyway, please tell me whats obvious, what isnt, etc etc
13:37
<lns_>
nubae: at first i hit the open icon thinking i'd be opening an image..but it wanted PyClicCommon files..
13:37
(since opening an image is step 1)
13:37
<nubae>
the user part is (kinda obviously) the inverse of this... where the user gets the quiz and needs to fill in the labels... but its collaborative, kind of like in a quiz show, where each contestant is given a go, or can make ask for a hint
13:37
ok.... I need to say what menu... good point
13:37
the image toolbar button isn't obvious enough either?
13:38
<lns_>
nubae: tooltips for the iconbar would be good
13:38
not really
13:38
i went to options -> open image to realize where to go
13:38
<nubae>
heh lol.... I thought the pape with a head on it might symbolize pic
13:38
but there is no generic icon for that
13:38
ok...
13:38
<lns_>
tooltips :)
13:38
<nubae>
well that way is also allowed :p
13:39
oh yeah... only pngs
13:39
I guess that isnt obvious either
13:39
<lns_>
that would be an issue for many
13:39
unfortunately png isn't widely used by people
13:39
luckily i have many ;)
13:39
what is 'select color' for?
13:40
<nubae>
oh right... but in this case the person is gonna have to use a paint program
13:40
and all paint programs on linux use png prolifically
13:40
no?
13:40
u'll see
13:40
but yes, needs to be defined...
13:40
I'm writing all thjis down, keep em coming
13:42
<lns_>
k
13:42
I am *very* verbose about this kinda stuff so i hope i odn't annoy you ;)
13:42
<nubae>
not at all
13:42
u are a great usability person
13:42
<lns_>
Maybe a button that changes mouse cursor for selecting points on the image..like a crosshair or something
13:43
<nubae>
u already caught various items I woulndt have clicked on
13:43
<lns_>
i know it 'just works' but the arrow might be confusing for some
13:43
<nubae>
no pun intended
13:43
<lns_>
;)
13:43
<nubae>
yes very true... can gtk do that?
13:43
I guess so
13:43
<lns_>
and maybe if you hit <enter> after putting in the name of each number, it will gray out and/or show that it is entered?
13:43
dunno
13:44
i'm planning on starting to learn some python for user interfaces for tcm...but it'll be a while before i can answer questions :)
13:44
<nubae>
just gonna step out to get a coke... bias... keep it coming
13:45
<lns_>
hmm, the 'save quiz' part doesn't seem to save anything
13:46
nubae: hitting 'save' icon does nothing, going file -> save quiz gives console error: TypeError: save_details() takes exactly 2 arguments (3 given)
13:47
oh the color changes the dots
13:47
;)
13:47Ahmuck-Sr has quit IRC
13:47
<lns_>
about pyclic: "....similar to Jclic but writte in python" ;)
13:48
maybe a confirmation dialogue when clearing everything...would suck to have to enter everything in again if you hit it on accident ;)
13:49
also, maybe either an auto extention adder if someone doesn't make it a .pyclic file (i just named mine "test" and went back in to open it, it couldn't find it because the file selector only looks for .pyclic files)
13:50
or just make the open dialogue look for all files..i like the first suggestion better thou
13:50
looks like the 'submit' button is the only thing that actually saves the projects
13:50
looks good !!! =)
13:50
I like it
13:51* nubae is back
13:51
<nubae>
lns it saves a xml file
13:51
u just dont get confirmation yet
13:52
yeah no fine tuning done at all yet
13:52
first wanted to get usability out the way
13:52
u saying save doesnt work?
13:53
<lns_>
yeah, just submit button i think...when i open an image, label some stuff, and hit save icon or file -> save it does nothing
13:53
but submit works
13:53
<nubae>
oh, toolbar works too
13:53
u know I never tested the menu way
13:53
heh
13:54
<lns_>
;)
13:54
<nubae>
well there is also a newer version at the office which has some fixes.. like I had to choose a non used extension
13:55
so I used .gpc = guadalinex py clic, but maybe gpx is better, guadalinex pyclic xml
13:55
whacha think?
13:55
also extremely cool is, images get automagically sized and everything is saved in xml, even image bit64 encoded
13:55
<lns_>
probably something that parallels the pgm name
13:56
that's awesome =)
13:56
makes it easy to transport!
13:56
<nubae>
yeah did that so can make online repo, xmpp bot repo
13:56
exactly!
13:56
and I think its so simple and fast, teachers would accept its simplictiy, right?
13:57* lns_ is already tired of this koolu tc...amd lx is sloooooow
13:57
<lns_>
nubae: I think so..just give lots of help in the pgm
13:57
<_UsUrPeR_>
nubae: did you ever get ltsp-cluster working properly in a non-NX environment?
13:57
<lns_>
another thing i was wondering, is what about spelling the labels in the quiz? is there any kind of general pattern matching so if someone misspells / capslock is on/etc..?
13:57
<nubae>
yeah I can see that is key...what do u think of the idea of an image as main this is how u do it?
13:58
well, that was the question, do I limit it to just correctness of the label, or spelling too
13:59
but yes, caps or not , it will reajust and accept any answer thoguh that is really up to the teacher
13:59
its possible he wants kids to know when things should be capitalised and when not
13:59
ie... town names
14:00
vs... ordinary objects, cat dog, etc...
14:00
also should I put a recommended age in there too for quizzes?
14:00
or ony for the online repo
14:01
(thinking of simplicity)
14:01
let me tell u what happens from the front end, where evertyhgin except collaboration is now working...
14:02
user opens up, chooses category + quiz (linked of course)
14:02
then sets app to single user or multi
14:02
if he sets to multi there are 15-30 secs for others to join in
14:03
when they do, u get a litst of avatars with tooltips as theri name or initials
14:06
then the game/quiz begins sequentuiallly (or shoudl it be an option) like be able to choose which one to start with
14:06
the user makes a guess, passes or asks for a hint, which randomly shows a character
14:06
correct answer give 25 points, wrong answer -25 and hint costs -15
14:07
after user attempts firt nu7mber, passes on to next kid
14:08
who has same options, and this goes rouhd till all have been filled in, and someone wins...
14:09
_UsUrPeR_: no, but spoke to strattog, he's working on fixes
14:10
a typ eo highscore is saved.... perhaos ina speperate xml save d on teacher machine,i or ith corresponding pemission
14:11
so from the top...go thoguh again so I can track this sll
14:13
<_UsUrPeR_>
nubae: k, cool
14:13ogra_ has joined #ltsp
14:15
<lns_>
nubae: sorry..afk
14:16
nubae: re: spelling/caps, giving the choice would be best.
14:16
i can see use cases for both
14:17
nubae: wow, those are some awesome ideas
14:18
<strattog>
nubae: i'm working on what?
14:18
<lns_>
specially multiuser quiz 'battles'.. that is absolute gold these days. we need more multi-user 'game' type things like this, it gets them so involved
14:18
all kids are playing multiplayer games online these days, it needs to be adapted to education
14:18
they'll eat it up!
14:19ogra_ has quit IRC
14:19
<nubae>
i seyep... and xmpp makes it easy, they are already indoctrinated by tv so theyll get it
14:19
<lns_>
so will the teachers
14:19
<nubae>
yep... os we'r eagrement there... idea wokrs... I was thinking even for toddles
14:19
isntead of filling in stuff, they just drag answer to objects
14:20
like th old pin the tail on teh donkey
14:21
other users: languaes...
14:21
<lns_>
sure, that'd be a cool option
14:21
<nubae>
trnsaltes the objects
14:21
so we have uses:
14:21
name the object
14:21
spell the object
14:22
spead type the object (doable???) dunno
14:24
<lns_>
you've got a good little program started :) remember to keep it simple but obvious as to how to use it, and it will be very popular i think :)
14:25
but think about if you're going to be able to support other file formats..that's a big roadblock imho
14:25
(image)
14:27
<nubae>
the probnelm is cairo only accept generatng imges from .png
14:28
I might, be able to add a converter o imag eupload
14:28
whatcha think?
14:29
or is that adding unneccesary complexity?
14:30
I''ll upload pyclic-user tomorrow
14:30
great thing is, I already started to use it to generate a repo of content
14:31
and if others do the same, we auto upload (or wsitch it even) linux-for-education .org
14:33
so... usability wise,its quite simple,,, what eslse needs doin g on athat end
14:33
<lns_>
nubae: if you can make the converter transparent to the user, then i would say that is good.
14:34
<nubae>
also... mutlilanguage...I use pango de renderok, transparent how, they upload image, it autochanges to png?
14:36ogra_ has joined #ltsp
14:36
<nubae>
mulit-lingo Spanish, English, German to begin
14:37kawan has joined #ltsp
14:41
<nubae>
anohter things... categories... I pulled that mostñl out of my behind. need a more related to real life
14:43
<lns_>
nubae: yes, autochange img to png
14:43
<nubae>
anway....lnssont hld back
14:43
shit that was supposed to say lns dont hold back
14:44
<lns_>
heh..i'm out for a bit, picking up a wifi card. that's about all the ammo i have for you right now, when you get the newer version pushed i'll download and check it out
14:44
having a help file will really be good though, too
14:44
even the simplest of programs need help files for those who rely on it
14:45
<nubae>
ok... I can do some serios uubdaptes... is there a day u could throw this at teachers?
14:45
get some inpit
14:46
<lns_>
possibly, i want to test it more myself before we take their time thou
14:46Lns has quit IRC
14:46
<lns_>
heh...wife musta suspended the system at home
14:46
<kawan>
Hello Alkisg, how are around ?
14:46
<nubae>
thanks so mcuh
14:46
<alkisg>
hey kawan
14:47
<lns_>
nubae: anytime =) always willing to help wherever i can
14:47
<alkisg>
I saw your mail, but I didn't have a chance to look at what you did. You said that the script isn't working?
14:47
<nubae>
but the idea is sound eh... the collaboration will be killer... should be one of first app to use telepathz¡¡y fraemwoekd to connect
14:48
well to collaborate as such
14:48
<kawan>
Sorry to bother you again. I sent you a mail last night with the grubgpxe.img I managed to create
14:48
<nubae>
as a game... what do u think about keeping scores
14:48
<alkisg>
kawan: I think you're missing a `set filename /ltsp/i386/vmlinuz` directive there - it might be necessary, I'm not sure
14:49
<kawan>
ok. I'll have a go.
14:49
<alkisg>
kawan: otherwise, why would it try to load pxelinux.0 again? :-/
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14:50
<alkisg>
kawan: try it from the command line first (ctrl+b at the gpxe prompt)
14:50
<nubae>
so that if there is aa full repo, students can go through differetn excercises and have a wal of conquests medals
14:50
something that could be used for further gmaes based on the same framework
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14:53
<kawan>
alkisg: it works fine from the command line (ctrl+b at the gpxe prompt)
14:53
<alkisg>
OK. Try it with the image now
14:53* alkisg hopes kawan has a rw cd :)
14:54
<kawan>
I do indeed....
14:56Selveste1____ is now known as Selveste1
15:00
<kawan>
alkisg, I tried after adding set filename /ltsp/i386/vmlinuz in the gpxe.txt file...
15:00
Same story.
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15:01
<alkisg>
kawan: can you upload your gpxe.txt to pastebot.ltsp.org ?
15:01
<kawan>
ok
15:02
<ltsppbot>
"kawan" pasted "gpxe.txt" (7 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/498
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15:03
<alkisg>
kawan: those two lines need to be reversed:
15:03
set filename /ltsp/i386/vmlinuz
15:03
dhcp net0
15:03
should be
15:03
dhcp net0
15:03
set filename /ltsp/i386/vmlinuz
15:03
<kawan>
ok
15:05
<nubae>
a great way to hied easter eggs too, like free tshirt guadalinex mercaaahdind
15:08
<kawan>
alkisg: same behavior.
15:09
<alkisg>
kawan: I can't imaging what would be wrong....
15:09
Maybe you should ask in #etherboot
15:09
I'll go there now to tell andytim that you're using his patch
15:09
<kawan>
OK. You have done a lot. Thanks
15:09
<alkisg>
Ah, andytim's not there
15:10
<kawan>
I'll keep you posted, if I find a solution
15:11
<alkisg>
kawan: if you want, send me a mail tomorrow to remind me, I'll have some time then to actually try it, so I can send you the resulting image.
15:13
<kawan>
alkisg: Ok I will. See you later.
15:13
<alkisg>
Bye
15:15
<kawan>
Bye. Have a good night
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15:59
<tstafford_>
so uh
15:59
oops wrong channel :)
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16:34
<jkenney_>
I am having a problem where for some reason my LTSP clients are mapping the desktop to the home directory
16:34
if i create a folder in /home/user/ it shows on the desktop
16:34
is there a easy fix for this
16:35
i deployed it and its causing problems
16:35
for me
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16:43
<alkisg>
jkenney_: there's a gconf setting for this, did you set it?
16:43
(default == off, though....)
16:44
<jkenney_>
no
16:44
what does that doo
16:44
does that map
16:44
where is it in .gconf
16:45
<ogra>
/apps/nautilus/preferences/desktop_is_home_dir
16:45
make sure thats off
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<alkisg>
jkenney_: I've also seen that happen when there's no $HOME/Desktop dir, or when it's supposed to be in a localized dir and it isn't.
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18:09
<jkenney_>
Yeah thats what it was alkisg
18:09
sorry i was deep in it
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<sbalneav>
Evening all
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