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Hi there fellow linux enthusiasts
I was wondering if any of you may have some experience with LTSP and RHEL?
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Lurk3r: i think most of us don't, mostly using debian or ubuntu, or in my odd case gentoo
didn't even know there was an ltsp rpm
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i had prepared an upload of ltspfs to debian, but i have to play gpg games with it.
it was pretty much a one-liner for ltspfs to support both old and new init-ltsp.d setups.
Hi vagrantc, did you see my recent ltsp-discuss mail? http://firstname.lastname@example.org/msg40363.html
I'm thinking to use that method for Greek schools next month, do you see any major pitfalls there?
(if it's not too late there for reading my new crazy ideas, that is... :D)
you've had this crazy idea for some time, and we're technically pretty close to implementing it, i think.
I'm mostly worried about the "remove sensitive data before mksquashfs" part... that can be done in a tmpfs/aufs, and even packages like apache can be purged if necessary...
But we'll definetely need a remove-sensitive-data.d/ dir with script for mysql password removal etc etc
yes, that's a major ugly ...
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Btw `mksquashfs -wildcards -ef <list-of-nbd-excluded-files>` works pretty well, we should use it upstream to omit root/* proc/* home/* var/cache/apt/archives/*.deb etc
Can we ship such an exclusion list in /etc/ltsp/nbd-excludes? Should I commit such a file upstream?
alkisg: better make some of those distro specific
although that could be done later without breaking stuff once the repackaging is done
shouldn't /boot be excluded as well?
or removed after update-kernels
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knipwim: you're probably right, boot/* isn't needed after boot, is it?
knipwim: since it's a single file, maybe distros can maintain their own versions?
config/Debian/nbd-excludes, config/Gentoo/nbd-excludes etc...
|08:14||* vagrantc seems to recall some things looking for files in /boot|
The big stuff is vmlinuz/initrd, we could only exclude those
seems like even the biggest stuff is relatively small.
|08:16||* alkisg is tempted to symlink /boot to /var/lib/tftpboot/boot in his ltsp-server-pnp solution, so that ltsp-update-kernels isn't needed...|
alkisg: why not just point dnsmasq at /opt/ltsp/ ?
for the tftp files...
vagrantc: in that solution, there's no ltsp chroot at all
The server installation is used
So no /opt/ltsp dir either, and no /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp..
no /opt/ltsp/images/ ?
Yup for that one
I'll bind-mount / to /opt/ltsp/i386, then mount a tmpfs/aufs there, mangle etc/passwd+shadow, regenerate ssh keys etc, and tell nbd to omit some dirs
Then run ltsp-update-image (or directly mksquashfs), and that'll probably be enough...
|08:19||* alkisg wonders if he needs ltsp-server at all, or if he could just depend on the other necessary packages|
...probably only some nbdswapd and ltsp-update-sshkeys variants
...and ltsp-localapps for those that need it
or include the ltsp-pnp in the ltsp-server package
knipwim: nah it's too soon, I'd like it to mature first before messing upstream with it
Indeed, later versions of the edubuntu live dvd can export /boot and the cd squashfs image itself to demonstrate thin/fat clients live without having ltsp-server installed at all
...and an init-ltsp.d/ script can be created to trust the "chroot" ssh keys on boot, so no ltsp-update-sshkeys is necessary
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07:55 <knipwim> didn't even know there was an ltsp rpm
also no recent experience here i guess
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knipwim, I used K12Linux before I switched to Ubuntu
Intel display driver issues with Fedora 14.
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hey vagrantc... pretty sure not vesa. have not seen you on since we last talked.
resolution is too high for vesa, unless vesa does more than 1024x768 these days.
once i started having kids, it got tough to keep up with all the changes to various specs.
ah, maybe framebuffer
on the little hp arm client.
it looks kind of like fbdev
i guess i could look at the Howto i wrote ... see what i said there :)
no video output whatsoever until x starts up tho... no normal fb action.
i recall getting pretty good resolution too when i plugged it into a reasonably decent monitor
yeah, that's the big downside. hellish to troubleshoot.
unless you manage to patch into the serial console
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shogunx: vesa does more than 1024x768, yes
it happens. you did a good job to get it functional as a client.
lspci -nn -k | grep -A 2 VGA tells you the driver in use
alkisg, really? when did that happen.
It's been years now, at least the 4 i'm using linux, and the protocol supported it for decades
alkisg, i could just look at the logs, but to do that, i have to set up ssh on the client.
likewise with your method
shogunx: thanks :)
shogunx: did you test the instructions blind? or did you set up a serial console?
shogunx: i was a bit nervous having someone follow those instructions and effectively brick it.
alkisg, i remember back when... way back when... sometimes vesa was all you could get to work on many chipsets, but it never gave me resolution other than 1024x768
shogunx: what's your problem btw?
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and i wasn't fully able to test myself, since the only device i had wasn't a factory install anymore... so i might have missed a step.
|18:03||* vagrantc remembers the vesa 1024x768 limitations as well|
maybe it was just an X.org (or XFree86?) thing
vagrantc, i burn more mosfets, waste more magnet wire, etc here than i care to discuss in detail. i consider that bricking things, but have just put it into my R&D budget so it does not hurt when i do it. i was not scared:)
read the associated articles you referenced, then followed the instructions.
critical that the ltsp server is the only dhcp server on the local net. that was the only hiccup i found.
shogunx: oh, yeah, that's a typical LTSP issue
multiple DHCP servers on a network is generally troublesome
shogunx: from wikipedia, "VESA BIOS Extensions (VBE core) 2.0 [November 1994] ==> Industry standard 16-bit and 24-bit graphics modes for resolutions from 320×200 right up to 1,600×1,200."
alkisg: i suspect older versions of X didn't support that or something.
That's for 2.0, the old version of the standard
i'll be damned.
never got better than 16 bit either
just because the standard supports it doens't mean the hardware/drivers implementing VESA have to support it
or maybe there were cards that didn't support the full spec.
alkisg, oh, no problem happening... just answering vagrantc's question about how his howto worked out from a while back.
and maybe it didn't make sense for them to support the full spec
howto on the arm-based HP T5325 thin clients
disklessworkstations shipped me one and i got it working with LTSP on debian :)
for me, vesa was always the fallback to get some type of gui going on wonky chips.
and i bought one from disklessworkstations so i could test out the power draw and performance vs the geode based clients i use now.
all in all i can say i am pretty happy with the results.
saves almost 40% on the power draw over the already pretty efficient geodes, while increasing proc speed, memory, and most notably video memory.
shogunx: and end-user feel is better?
its pretty solid. not sure i can tell much difference between sitting at the terminal vs sitting at the console of server.
a little latency, perhaps.
it sits on my electronics development/repair bench now, mostly showing schematics of whatever i am working on.
wonder if 3M could be talked into releasing an ARM version of their touch drivers
most of it is java anyway
I've been using these http://www.wdlsystems.com/modperl/view_services.cgi?r=detail&prod_num=1EBOX43&aisle_id=1040
with PCE booting, work well also
though I only do rdp outside of just playing
those are the ones i have been using for a while now.
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and where does one buy one?
it takes an email to their sales folks, i think.
with no "buy" link, or prices or anything... I kinda despise that model when it's not custom parts
BUT... i will likely be buying these arm clients in the future
's were about 200 each, iirc.
can they pxe boot as well as local flash?
yeah, i don't like that sales model either, although i do things the same way because i do make everything custom
where I work it's that way, but it has to be since everything is literally custom spec'ed
we stock no complete products
i just cannot sell a "off the shelf" unit, as my components change based on lattitude, annual cloud cover, wire length, etc.
one size does not fit all with solar computing.
one thing I do like about the ebox's is that they can be sandwiched between a 17" lcd and the vesa bracket
yeah, these are tiny too
the sumo's dont look much bigger, but it's not the size as much as the design
a larger form factor would work fine, if it have 100mm holes in the center and some metal to take the force
they sell clients with integrated displays too, but the power draw was too high for my uses
I don't like that idea, stuff breaks too much
I guess if you could replacement parts reasonably, but that's usually not the case
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|19:16||* zevlag ** WinSys ** Client: XChat-WDK 1503 (x64) ** OS: Microsoft Windows 7 Professional ** CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5 CPU 650 @ 3.20GHz (3.00 GHz) ** RAM: 3767 MB Total (975 MB Free) ** VGA: Intel(R) HD Graphics ** Uptime: 74.21 Hours **|
grr.. wrong key click, wrong window
sounds like a laptop for me
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Is LTSP supposed to be completely functional in the current Beta 2 of Ubuntu 12.04?
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for some definition of "completely functional" that doesn't mean ready for production
(but the smallprint says there are some bugs which you are welcome to help fix)
what bugs are there still?
well, to start with, we're not on the final ltsp version that'll be in 12.04
hmm, when I boot my fat clients, I can login via LDM, I get X loaded, I can right click and creat a new foldr on the desktop etc, but menus are missinbg
in unity? try moving your mouse to the top edge of the screen.
... the toolbar on the left, the clock at the top, not oaded
(the menus should be there)
I can right click and I have those menus, but I'm missing the rest of the "experience"
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alkisg: I'm going to sync the new ltspfs later today (when it's available for syncing, apparently Debian/LP are lagging today), then look at ltsp itself
alkisg: so IIRC I need to make sure ltsp-common-functions gets installed as ltsp-client-functions (in ltsp-client-core), ltsp-server-functions (in ltsp-server) and as ltsp-common-functions (in ltsp-client-core until we have a new ldm)
sudo ltsp-build-client --prompt-rootpass --fat-client
that's all I've done to get to this point
Is there a method to get LTSP working for remote users (telecommuters)? Any pointers on URLs with the steps?
stgraber: did you also do the other packaging changes that I mailed you?
jvx: you probably want to use something like NX or x2go for them
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alkisg: I'm looking at that e-mail now
zevlag: can you send a screenshot?
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highvoltage, thx!. ...Off to experiment.
highvoltage, http://dl.dropbox.com/u/23109689/photos/ltsptest1.JPG http://dl.dropbox.com/u/23109689/photos/ltsptest2.JPG
zevlag: is that installation up to date, or it might have last been updated weeks ago?
zevlag: on the login screen, you should be able to choose a session from the bottom left menu. can you check what that is set to when you log in? personally I'd rather install the gnome fallback session in them and use that.
I did an apt-get update and upgrade and dist-upgrade this morning
In the chroot too?
I deleted and rebuilt the /opt/tsp dir this morning after that
sudo ltsp-build-client --prompt-rootpass --fat-client
stgraber: +client/ltsp-client-functions usr/share/ltsp ==> vagrantc said that symlinks aren't copied as real files with dh_install, so something else will be needed
Same for +server/ltsp-server-functions usr/share/ltsp too, I think he put something in debian/rules
stgraber: and +server/functions.d/Debian/* usr/share/ltsp/ ==> has been renamed to functions/ now, without the .d part
highvoltage, they are set to DEFAULT, I'm testing gnome now
highvoltage, change it to GNOME and I get a "failed to load session GNOME"
alkisg: ltsp-client-functions isn't a symlink
alkisg: ltsp-client-common-functions is (and is handled by debian/rules to avoid the dh_install problem)
Ah right forgot about the newest wrappers
highvoltage, When i change it to "Ubuntu-2D" I get a usable environment
alkisg: the client/functions/* and server/functions/* still look weird to me, what is actually loading these and where are they supposed to be on the client/server filesystem?
stgraber: all of those get dropped to /usr/share/ltsp, and are loaded by ltsp-common-functions (which has been renamed to client/server functions)
It loads $0-functions if it exists
So each tool sources a different file
ok ... that's why my grep failed...
alkisg: does that look sane to you? http://paste.ubuntu.com/911974/
I don't really like the idea that we make /usr/share/ltsp a huge mess but well, we can always work on improving that a bit later on ;)
stgraber: looks ok but give me 1 min to check the latest commits...
(we could make a /usr/share/ltsp/functions dir...)
stgraber: I can't see any problems :)
stgraber: ltsp-chroot also changed location
knipwim: right, thanks, updated
Is there an easy way to have a client boot a different image (aside from modifying the tftp config?)
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stgraber: no commits to ltsp-trunk?
|20:20||* vagrantc was thinking there'd be an upload today|
vagrantc: I'm waiting for your ltspfs to be syncable first
|20:24||* vagrantc still had gpg issues so didn't sucessfully upload till late last night|
|20:24||* vagrantc wonders what's taking so long|
it should be in the archive by now.
|20:25||* vagrantc just committed a backwards-compatibility fix for ldm, too|
although the workaround of having ltsp-client-core ship a symlink for ltsp-common-functions to ltsp-client-functions works, too.
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stgraber: so is ltsp-trunk working for you, other than the ltspfs issue?
planning on any other changes?
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vagrantc: I haven't tested it yet, I only went through the diff and updated my packaging so far. I'm a bit low on time for LTSP so I was planning on testing new ltsp + new ltspfs instead of testing both separately
stgraber: the new ltspfs is really just a simple symlink ... you could test it manually.
hmm, so ubuntu-2d isn't working right either
No windows actually display, the background is black, if I click on icon to show me the 4 workspaces, I can see the windows of the applications I opened, but as soon as I choose the workspace, the background goes black again
zevlag: clean .xsession-errors for that user, login again, and check it for errors
stgraber: we should also replace xbase-clients in debian/control with x11-utils
xbase-clients is deprecated, vagrantc has already done the change some time in the past
alkisg, should I be troubleshooting unity or unity-2d?
zevlag: start with unity-2d
unity won't work, but it should fallback to unity-2d automatically
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|21:23||* alkisg thinks we should change the 192.168.0.x internal LTSP subnet to something that's not commonly used by cheap routers|
Having the same subnet in both NICs causes problems
|21:25||* vagrantc agrees|
yeah, just not NOW please ;)
L+T+S+P = 12+20+19+16 = 67, I vote for 192.168.67.x
|21:29||* vagrantc didn't know alkisg did numerology|
Or 42... "Douglas Adams described his choice as 'a completely ordinary number, a number not just divisible by two but also six and seven. In fact it's the sort of number that you could without any fear introduce to your parents'" :P
How about 192.168.861.291
|21:32||* alkisg puts 67 in ltsp-pnp, it was his room number when he was a university student too|
67 seems short and odd enough that it's not likely to be default many places, and short, and not a bad call.
alkisg, So, I'm not sure where to go with these errors, or which ones to be concerned about :http://dl.dropbox.com/u/23109689/ltsp/xsession.txt
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zevlag: not sure either, can you try with another client to verify it's not related to your graphics module or monitors setup?
alkisg, completely different hardware platfrom, same problems
alkisg: uploaded epoptes 0.5.2-1 to the delayed 2 day queue
zevlag: I don't have a clue, but what I'd try next is to install gnome-shell, which includes gnome-fallback, so I'd try if that works
vagrantc: thanks! I'll post it in the website tomorrow and sync to Ubuntu when it's available
alkisg: probably could have done 1 day delay, but wanted to make sure 0.5.1-1 makes it to testing first, otherwise i'd just upload today.
alkisg: i might re-upload without delay once i see 0.5.1-1 makes it into testing
vagrantc: don't worry they aren't major bugs so 1 more day delay doesn't really matter
|21:52||* alkisg got ltsp-pnp that far: http://imagebin.org/index.php?mode=image&id=206478 :)|
Meh pxelinux doesn't like the memtest86+.bin filename
alkisg: long standing bug...
alkisg: drop the .bin extension
alkisg: i usually symlink it
I'll put it in debian/links
you're using dnsmasq for tftp? think that follows symlinks wherever they go...
definitely tempted to switch to dnsmasq by default for LTSP.
it's so much easier to work with.
I'm using dnsmasq with tftp-root=/boot
I only need a pxelinux.cfg and a backgrounds dir in there, and a syslinux symlink, so I didn't bother to use /srv/tft or /var/lib/tftpboot...
/boot/syslinux -> /usr/lib/syslinux
For vesamenu etc
Eh I also have pxelinux.0 -> /usr/lib/syslinux/pxelinux.0 and lts.conf -> /etc/ltsp/lts.conf
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Hmmm - .bin - "CD boot sector" [ISOLINUX only]
If it's isolinux only, why does pxelinux also handle it as such? :(
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because there is virtually no difference in code.
alkisg: what are you using to configure the bootable kernel?
vagrantc: I'm listing all kernels with sort -rV, is that what you asked me?
no linux-version for you?
I don't think it's worth the trouble.. sort -rV works fine here
I even put support for a DEFAULT stanza
Either with its index (0-n) or the whole vmlinuz* name
|22:11||* vagrantc eyes up ltsp-trunk/client/update-kernels for another go.|
vagrantc: in case you need ideas (or have comments) about pxe-menus etc: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~alkisg/+junk/ltsp-pnp/files
i need ifcpu detection to determine amd64 vs. pae vs. nopae
ifcpu also supports pae vs nopae? Cool...!
"append amd64 -- pae -- nopae" where other menu entries are amd64, pae, and nopae.
i should try and get such code into debian-cd/debian-installer
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alkisg: that looks promising!
I followed the /etc/grub.d structure, it seemed ok enough
alkisg: just wondering about namespace collisions, calling it /etc/pxe-menu
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Hmmm well if ever this goes to pxelinux, and they decide that they want that exact name, maybe they can conflict with ltsp-pnp (or whatever) << version where we got rid of it and started depending on their package?
s'pose so. though confiles are trickier
since they get left behind unless the package it purged.
Ah right :(
also, shipping /etc/nbd-server/config would be a major policy violation.
True, but I doubt that the LTS release that I'm targetting will see major nbd-server package updates
So I thought conffiles would be better to automatically update the package in case ltsp-pnp ships a newer version, or leave it if the user modified it
alkisg: but you could drop conffiles in /etc/nbd-server/conf.d ... ?
*the file, not the package
vagrantc: and just copy the /etc/nbd-server/config on postinst?
|22:31||markit has left IRC (firstname.lastname@example.org, )|
conf.d doesn't work without that
there isn't really a right way to do it.
nbd-server should ship config at least
well, not a right way fully automated.
But it doesn't, so... :-/
yes, if nbd-server shipped a default config that included conf.d ...
When we're more relaxed we can try to ask Wouter for all the things we need from nbd
The disconnect stuff, persistence, config files...
alkisg: i could try and hash out an "LTSP wishlist for NBD" agenda with wouter at debconf in july...
although, if we're really going to make a go of it, i should probably work that out sooner so we can have it implemented before june.
Sounds very good, I think I can also have some small patches by then
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alkisg: very cool.
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|22:46||* alkisg => pumkin|
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