IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 25 July 2017   (all times are UTC)

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07:55
<ZAJDAN>
alkisg: HI...yesterday we spoke about the problem with LDM vs gnome-keyring ...you told me, that some new version has fixed the problem...
07:56
<alkisg>
Yes
07:57
<ZAJDAN>
you mean new version of LTSP?
07:57
<alkisg>
Are you using jessie?
07:58
Or stretch?
07:58
!version
07:58
<ltsp`>
An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
07:58
<alkisg>
Eh, anyway, which ltsp version are you using now
08:03
<ZAJDAN>
Debian Jessie/32bit-Mate, ltsp 5.5.4.-4
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08:16
<alkisg>
Yes you need a newer ltsp
08:17
<ZAJDAN>
the newer package exist for jessie?
08:17
<alkisg>
I don't know, check packages.debian.org
08:18
jessie-backports => 5.5.8-1~bpo8+1
08:19
<ZAJDAN>
this version is with the fix yes?
08:22
<alkisg>
The fix is in ltsp since 5.5.6-1
08:23
<ZAJDAN>
is enough install ltsp-server or all ltsp-... ?
08:25
do I have to unistall the older version or is works just reinstall via dpkg -i ltsp-... ?
08:25
<fiesh>
I guess there is no way to add command line options to the X server, is there? iglx can currently only be activated via command line option, not xorg.conf option -- so I hacked it directly into screen.d/ldm
08:27
Also, any clues on why my X server isn't listening on TCP any more in the updated version? Thus LDM_DIRECTX isn't working, only X via ssh
08:29
<alkisg>
fiesh: ./screen.d/ldm:exec xinit /usr/share/ltsp/xinitrc /usr/sbin/ldm -- ${DISPLAY} vt${TTY} -auth ${XAUTHORITY} ${X_ARGS} "$@" -br >/dev/null 2>&1
08:29
You can put X_ARGS in lts.conf I think
08:29
<fiesh>
alkisg: ah OK, didn't find it in the man page
08:30
<alkisg>
The code is the best documentation
08:30
I don't think anyone has worked in the documentation for ages
08:30
About tcp, newer xorg versions require a -listentcp param, see the code again
08:30
It's probably not activated on your distro
08:31
./screen.d/ldm: # Xorg after 1.17 needs `-listen tcp`, see
08:31
./screen.d/ldm: X_ARGS="-listen tcp $X_ARGS"
08:31
<fiesh>
ah awesome, thank you
08:31
<alkisg>
np
08:31
<fiesh>
then I can double-use or test X_ARGS in lts.conf :)
08:32
<alkisg>
Right
08:36
<ZAJDAN>
alkisg: nstalling new version of config file /etc/init.d/ltsp-client-core ... Installing new version of config file /etc/init/ltsp-client-core.conf ... Configuration file '/etc/ltsp/update-kernels.conf' ==> Modified (by you or by a script) since installation. ==> Package distributor has shipped an updated version. What would you like to do about it ? Your options are: Y or I : install the package maintainer's version N or
08:36
what do you recommend?
08:37
<fiesh>
alkisg: ok awesome, X_ARGS in lts.conf was my savior, controls everything
08:37
<alkisg>
fiesh: cool
08:37
<fiesh>
glx working again, direct x working again, everything going well
08:38
<alkisg>
ZAJDAN: check the differences, you probably have IPAPPEND=3 there
08:38
<fiesh>
now I just need to fix the dumb mouse acceleration change they somehow introduced in the more recent xorg version, haha
08:38
I _hate_ mouse acceleration
08:38
alkisg: btw, we're not the only ones who rely on remote opengl ;) https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Xorg-IGLX-Potential-Bye-Bye
08:39
<alkisg>
fiesh: yes I've sent you that link in our previous discussion :)
08:40
<fiesh>
oh I forget, hehe
08:42
it's such a shame the concept of remote X / opengl etc. seems to be dwindling... and surprising to me in particular in the light of the cloud hype that's going on
08:42
you'd think that having your whole IT infrastructure in a data center and only using thin clients would be a rather attractive set-up for many companies in the future
08:43
<alkisg>
No, because screen transfers require 2+ gbps
08:44
It might become attractive again if they manage to send it in a compressed video stream, like some online gaming companies do
08:44
This will require hardware changes though
08:44
<fiesh>
but not really, except maybe for watching videos and the likes
08:45
<alkisg>
Right, if you omit web browsing, then people don't want to use computers
08:45
<fiesh>
for normal work, including 3d operations because indirect gl is very fast, things work well
08:45
<alkisg>
No, scrolling firefox etc still requires 2 gbps
08:45
<fiesh>
no, web browsing is perfectly fine (using xrender in firefox, disabling it makes it unusable)
08:45
no
08:45
<alkisg>
Unless you expect lag
08:45
Do the math
08:45
!thin-clients-bandwidth
08:45
<ltsp`>
thin-clients-bandwidth: A small explanation why thin clients can't perform well with video, lots of screen updates etc: https://sourceforge.net/p/ltsp/mailman/message/35694699/
08:45
<alkisg>
If you want to send HD at 60 fps, then yes
08:45
If you are ok with a few fps and a few lag, sure
08:46
But of course companies won't invest on "lag by design"
08:46
<fiesh>
alkisg: we run 4K monitors over 1gbit, firefox full screen, it scrolls very smoothly -- but only if gfx.xrender.enabled is enabled
08:46
if it's disabled, what you describe happens
08:46
<alkisg>
You can save some bandwidth on *some* apps that can send client-side scrolling commands
08:47
That's a very limited usage scenario
08:47
<fiesh>
well ok, I'm talking specifically about firefox here
08:47
(or thunderbird, which uses the same backend)(
08:47
both perform well over 1gibt with 4K monitors in full screen
08:47
<alkisg>
And I'm sure that if you measure it formally, you'll still see dropped frames
08:48
E.g. chromium has an option to show you all drawing commands, where you can see the exact fps
08:48
<fiesh>
I don't think X does support dropping frames, does it?
08:48
oh the client does itself, I see
08:48
disabling gfx.xrender.enabled on firefox leads to awful performance, and no frames are dropped
08:48
<alkisg>
Sure, there's compositing, vsync, all sorts of monsters there
08:48
It's impossible, so sorry I don't believe you
08:49
When the maths say 2 gbps per client, you can't convince me it works for e.g. 10 clients on 1 gbps
08:49
You can convince me that you don't see the dropped frames, sure
08:49
But not that there aren't there
08:50
Your eyes might be ok with even 5 fps, but you can't send 60 fps per client, when 1 client needs 2 gpbs
08:51
<fiesh>
is there a way to measure dropped frames with firefox? chromium never works here
08:51
<alkisg>
Dunno
08:51
1920*1080*60*32=3981312000, 4 gbps per client for real HD screen trasferes
08:52
So for 10 clients you'd need 40 gbps
08:52
Not something to invest on
08:53
<fiesh>
avg 54 fps
08:53
when scrolling around
08:54
also I don't see why per se a full screen refresh would be necessary for scrolling, when you only need to update one scan line
08:54
I don't know what programs do it, but it would seem firefox does it
08:55
when I disable gfx.xrender.enabled, I'm quite sure it does full screen redrawing, because then the performance is like you'd expect it to be in this case
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08:55
<fiesh>
bbl
09:05
<ZAJDAN>
alkisg: I upgraded ltsp to the version 5.5.8.1 ...updated image, but gnome keyring save password just for running session, after reboot ask me again
09:05
<alkisg>
ZAJDAN: yes, that's because ldm doesn't unlock the keyring on login so you need to unlock the keyring manually on each login
09:05
It will be solved in ltsp 6 which will drop ldm
09:06
But the "not working at all" issue was solved.
09:06
<ZAJDAN>
ok ok
09:30
and the version 6 will be this year?
09:37
<alkisg>
No, we need to find funding before implementing ltsp 6
09:37
I don't know when we'll find sponsorship
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11:57
<ZAJDAN>
alkisg: where I can send some donation?
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13:15
<alkisg>
!learn donation as There's no formal group or company behind LTSP, so if you want to donate, select a developer that does some coding/bug fixing/etc for you, and donate to him
13:15
<ltsp`>
The operation succeeded.
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