IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 25 July 2013   (all times are UTC)

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05:52
<mnemoc>
moin
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09:30
<User_4574>
Good morning
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09:47
<alkisg>
Good morning
09:47
<User_4574>
hi
09:51
i have a question regarding shells
09:51
I would prefer to use FISh over BASh, but LTSP just blackscreens and returns to the login page when I attempt to log in
09:52
Is there some magic I can wrangle here?
09:57
<alkisg>
So, when you change a user's login shell, that user cannot longer login with LTSP?
09:57
You're not changing the /bin/sh symlink, are you?
09:58
<User_4574>
nope
09:58
chsh -s /usr/bin/fish
09:59
<alkisg>
And after that the user cannot longer login?
09:59
<User_4574>
exactly. When they enter their username and password, they get a blank screen for a few seconds and then are returned to the login page
10:00
<alkisg>
And, does `ssh user@server` from another PC work at that point?
10:02
<User_4574>
it does
10:03
<alkisg>
So it appears that some of the ltsp scripts have problems with the user login shell
10:03
Can you try LOCAL_APPS=False in lts.conf, then reboot the client, and try to login?
10:04
...to see if the problem is caused by the localapps code?
10:05
<User_4574>
can i restrict that to one machine?
10:05
<alkisg>
[mac:address]
10:05
LOCAL_APPS=False
10:08
<User_4574>
Thanks
10:08
I'll try it in a minute or so, I'm doing this amongst work
10:08
<alkisg>
np, same here for most of us :)
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10:58
<User_4574>
I'm back
10:58
No such luck, that didn't work for me
11:12
<alkisg>
File a bug report then:
11:12
!ltsp-bug
11:12
<ltsp>
ltsp-bug: To file a bug report for upstream LTSP, go to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp
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14:33
<dnordel>
hi guys
14:34
anyone feel like answering a question?
14:44
<||cw>
only if i know the answer.... which you should just ask the question first
14:45
<workingcats>
dnordel, don't ask to ask, just ask ;)
15:02
<Hyperbyte>
!ask | echo dnordel
15:02
<ltsp>
dnordel ask: Don't ask to ask a question, simply ask it, and if someone knows the answer, they'll respond. Please hang around for at least a full hour after asking a question, as not everybody constantly monitors the channel.
15:03
<Hyperbyte>
:-D
15:11
<dnordel>
haha sorry guys, ok so here is the question: are any of you familiar with Ncomputing thin clients?
15:11
my parents own a preschool, and years ago they purchased Ncomputing devices, and I HATE them =/
15:12* alkisg has seen many people here switching from ncomputing to ltsp...
15:12
<dnordel>
i am wondering if you can flash different software to the devices
15:12
or do we just have to get new devices
15:12
?
15:13
<alkisg>
I don't think they are "real" clients... but I've never seen one so I'm not sure
15:13
I.e I think they're designed to only work with ncomputing hardware+software on the server side
15:13
<dnordel>
i figured
15:14
any suggestions on the most economic choice for thin clients? we only really need to run gcompris and maybe internet access
15:15
ethernet wired
15:15
<Hyperbyte>
dnordel, where are you located?
15:15
<dnordel>
California
15:15
<Hyperbyte>
You could have a look at www.disklessworkstations.com for some clients that are known to work fine with LTSP/Linux
15:16
Then again, any plain ol' thin client should do.
15:16
<dnordel>
yeah, i didnt think gcompris would really require much
15:16
thank you for you help hyperbyte and alkisg
15:17
<alkisg>
np - note that you might want to buy fat clients (more ram) for schools
15:17
E.g. clients with 1 Gb ram can run multimedia apps like gcompris and browsers much better than 128 mb ram clients
15:17
<workingcats>
dnordel, you should be able to get computers that are easily powerful enough to run as fat client for free or very cheap
15:18
but the electricity use will ofc be in a different league
15:18
<dnordel>
we dont have a lot of room in the computer lab
15:18
we have the server already, so...
15:18
we only have 6 computer stations too
15:19
<||cw>
dnordel: hm, the Lseries seem to use this http://www.tgdaily.com/hardware-features/48993-ambidextrous-system-on-chip-spotted-in-the-wild
15:19
<Hyperbyte>
dnordel, it all depends on what's important for you. Lots of people choose thin clients because of the money they can save... we chose them mainly because it takes away a lot of warmth & noise from our desks
15:20
Others choose fat clients because they already have PC's and don't wanna buy fat....
15:20
Your choice should really depend on your goals.
15:20
<||cw>
thin clients also require a beefier server
15:21
<dnordel>
money is the most important right now, and, now that you mention it, the heat would be an issue with the lab's current location
15:21
as i said, we only need to be able to run gcompris...
15:21
dont know if that makes a difference
15:21
<||cw>
I don't know its requirements on cpu and ram
15:22
<Hyperbyte>
dnordel, choose between thin and fat first.
15:22
Fat clients use client hardware to run programs, not server. Thin uses server hardware to run programs, and transmits the desktop over network.
15:22
<||cw>
actually, some $50 P4's would name decent fat clients
15:23
<Hyperbyte>
Yeah, but if he has a good server with enough power for run gcompris X times, he could get away with thin probably. :)
15:23
<alkisg>
People say "I just want my clients to be able to run a browser", thinking that's very light on resources... while watching a youtube video on a single thin client might need 2.5 Gbps bandwidth
15:23
<dnordel>
if think clients are the cheaper solution (since we have our server) then we would go with thin clients
15:23
<Hyperbyte>
dnordel, what are your server specs?
15:23
<dnordel>
one sec
15:24
<workingcats>
dnordel, used desktops are (much) cheaper than less powerful new thin clients. ofc you could try to get used thin clients, combining the advantages of both, sorta ;)
15:25
<||cw>
that's rare, used thin clients are often very low performance
15:25
<dnordel>
intel Pentium D 2.8ghz, 2 gb ram, 80 gb hard drive
15:25
<||cw>
because other than a device failing, low performance is the only reason to replace one
15:25
<Hyperbyte>
dnordel, and how many clients are you planning to run on there?
15:25
<dnordel>
6
15:26
<||cw>
double the ram and it might do OK
15:26
<dnordel>
ok
15:26
np
15:26
<||cw>
maybe
15:26
what are you running on that now?
15:26
<dnordel>
it was running with the Ncomputing hardware/software
15:26
<||cw>
what OS? windows?
15:26
<dnordel>
dual booting window/linux
15:27
the clients connect to linux
15:27
have to use windows to configure them...
15:27
it is SO stupid
15:27
<||cw>
lxde or something? 2GB is easy to peg with a single login
15:28
<dnordel>
ubuntu
15:28
the ncomputing crap says it works with ubuntu
15:29
ubuntu 12.04 lts
15:29
if you were wondering
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15:31
<dnordel>
HEY! If we do end up replacing these Ncomputing devices, would anyone here like one to play around with?
15:32
<Hyperbyte>
dnordel, why don't you open one up?
15:32
See if there's some flash memory in there which you can replace.
15:32
Or, attach a bootable USB stick... see if you can boot from USB somehow
15:33
<dnordel>
thats a good idea... i might be able to
15:33
<Hyperbyte>
You could use them for LTSP then even.
15:33
<||cw>
or find some test points to get a serial console on the bootloader
15:33
<Hyperbyte>
dnordel, what do those ncomputing clients do without a network connection?
15:34
<||cw>
bootbale USB ins't likely to work that easily. it seems to be a dual core ARm from what I'ev read, if it's an L series
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15:34
<Hyperbyte>
Ooooh
15:34
<dnordel>
yes it is an L 230
15:35
<||cw>
what I'd so is look for the update image in your XP partition and see if it's linux based
15:35
if it is, it can likely be hacked
15:35
<Hyperbyte>
The word 'arm' in Dutch (my native language) means 'poor' :P
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15:35
<||cw>
heh
15:36
<dnordel>
i have the ncomputing software installed for ubuntu, would it be in the linux partion as well?
15:36
<||cw>
yeah, but ARM does have a better power to performance ratio than x86
15:36
dnordel: not unless you can apply client updates from linux
15:36
which as I understand, you can't
15:36
<dnordel>
oic
15:36
ok i will take a look
15:36
<||cw>
but you can browse the nfts partition from linux right?
15:37
<dnordel>
yes
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15:38
<dnordel>
so you are talking about the firmware for the clients, right?
15:38
<||cw>
yes
15:39
it's probably signed and checksummed, so hacks would be difficult, but not impossible
15:39
<dnordel>
i found the boot img, now what?
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15:42
<dnordel>
i sincerely doubt it is linux based...
15:43
they never had support for linux until a couple years ago
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15:46
<robson>
hello, what is the default username and password for ltsp?
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15:47
<ogra_>
robson, whatever you created on the server :)
15:48
<robson>
hi ogra_, i installed ltsp on raspberry
15:48
<ogra_>
well, it needs a server to log in to
15:49
<robson>
ok...
15:49
<ogra_>
and you need to use the user accounts on the server
15:49
no idea how that works on RPi since LTSP means no local install usually
15:49
<robson>
ok, i ll choose another image
15:49
thx
15:50
<ogra_>
so whoever created what you use must have hacked it up ... ask the person that did that
15:51
<Hyperbyte>
Since you guys are obvious bash hackers, I have a question. I have the string: /directory/subdir/filename I want to extract 'subdir' and 'filename' into variables. How do I do this?
15:52
<ogra_>
x="1/2 3/4"
15:52
rightofslash=${x##*/}
15:52
leftofslash=${x%%/*}
15:52
firstword=${x%% *}
15:52
lastword=${x##* }
15:52
<Hyperbyte>
Right. And the middle word?
15:52
rightofslash twice? :P
15:53
<ogra_>
rightofslash=${x##*/} ; evenmorerightofslash=${rightofslash##*/}
15:53
yeah :)
15:53
<Hyperbyte>
Right... heh
15:53
<alkisg>
s=/directory/subdir/filename; f=${s##*/}; d=${s%/$f}; d=${d##*/}; echo $f, $d
15:53
<ogra_>
allternatively look at awk
15:53
or sed
15:54
there are a million of ways :)
15:54
<Hyperbyte>
Well awk would be nicest I think.
15:54
But 'awk' is kind of close to the sound I make whenever I read it's documentation or just see examples.
15:54* ogra_ usually prefers sed ... but its reallly a matter of taste
15:55
<alkisg>
There's also: basename "$x"
15:55
...if you're looking for code readability rather than performance
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15:56
<alkisg>
basename "/directory/subdir/filename" and basename "$(dirname "/directory/subdir/filename")"
15:58
<Hyperbyte>
You are mad hacker you!
16:00
<workingcats>
Hyperbyte, same in german (arm=poor)
16:00
it also means arm (as in what your hand attaches to, like in english)
16:00
<dnordel>
LOL
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16:03
<||cw>
dnordel: so now, the hacking begins. you have ot find what kind of image it is, and see if it can mounted and edited, or if it needs extracted and rebuilt
16:03
dnordel: I did say not easy right?
16:04
<workingcats>
||cw, sounds like fun tho
16:04
<||cw>
yes
16:04
also, just because they dont' support linux, doens't mean the device ins't linux based
16:04
<workingcats>
yep
16:04
<||cw>
it just means it's be trimmed and customized
16:05
<workingcats>
take vmware. only client they offer is windows
16:05
and recently a web client but apparently that is not equal in features
16:05
<||cw>
yeah, and the older esx is RHEL based
16:05
<workingcats>
unfortunately we are on esx 4.1 where they dont even have a crippled web client
16:05
<||cw>
esxi is not, but it does use busybox and a lot of libc and a few gnu untils
16:06
<workingcats>
esxi isnt linux based, or isnt rhel based?
16:07
<||cw>
both
16:08
<workingcats>
hm wiki disagrees
16:08
Up through the current ESX version 5.1, a Linux kernel is started first,[10] and is used to load a variety of specialized virtualization components, including VMware's vmkernel component. This previously booted Linux kernel then becomes the first running virtual machine and is called the service console.
16:09
<||cw>
it does use some linux driver code, but all other linux resemblance is provided via busybox, libc, and a port of freebsd's linux-elf comparability layer
16:09
link?
16:09
there is no esx 5.1, only esxi 5.1
16:13
<workingcats>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESXi
16:13
well if that description there is correct it boots linux
16:14
this then boots "vmkernel" which takes over
16:14
<||cw>
that contradicts a latter section http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESXi#VMware_ESXi
16:14
<workingcats>
ie linux is basically a glorified bootloader
16:14
<||cw>
"VMware ESXi is a smaller footprint version of ESX that does not include ESX's Service Console"
16:15
<workingcats>
yep you're right
16:15
<||cw>
it's poor writing. esx boots a linux kernel first, esxi does not.
16:16
however, esxi's installer is linux.
16:16
<workingcats>
well thats different
16:16
<||cw>
yeah
16:16
but point stands, linux based does not mean linux support automatically
16:17
<workingcats>
but this is crazy. who on earth would think "hey, you know what, im gonna start maintaining all drivers myself now!"
16:17
oh yeah absolutely
16:17
<||cw>
they were doing that anyway
16:17
<workingcats>
i have to use windows to root my mum's android
16:17
there's still a huge difference between the RHEL model (fork an old kernel, then backport updates, and repeat this process 3 years later) and doing everything yourself
16:17
<||cw>
the rhel console is a virtual machine too, with special drivers to interface with the hypervisor drivers
16:18
so it was actually double the work
16:19
a posix emulation layer with a busybox based service running directly on the hypervisors microkernel is actually a lot less work
16:20
and busybox is probably charging them less than rh was for support and porting assistance
16:20
<workingcats>
busybox doesnt talk to network or sata chips tho ;)
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16:25
<ltsp-thin-slow-b>
as my nickname respresents my ltsp clients(zotac) are really slow while booting i think it's the image that's too large, how can i shrink the image?
16:27
<alkisg>
ltsp-thin-slow-b: the image size doesn't matter for booting
16:28
What are the client specs? cpu, ram, network speed?
16:28
Also, are you using nbd or nfs? Compressed nbd or not?"
16:29
<||cw>
workingcats: right, the hypervisor does
16:29
and always has.
16:29
<workingcats>
||cw, yep, which is where the driver issue comes in
16:29
i mean they had their own scheduler and FS for quite some time
16:29
<||cw>
and their own drivers
16:30
storage and lan were always their own drivers
16:30
<workingcats>
i guess thats the part i find truly nuts
16:31
<||cw>
is it? dell and hp and ibm windows servers use intel and lsi chipsets but they maintain their own driver for them
16:31
I dont' see the difference
16:32
in fact, it's dell and hp and lsi that maintain their esxi drivers and submit them to vmwre as well
16:34
<workingcats>
well if you're ok with your OS only working on hardware by 3 makers i guess its perfectly viable
16:34
and i guess vmware is ok with that
16:34
the 3 being an exaggeration ofc but you'll never get anywhere near the sort of hw support of even a BSD
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16:37
<gdi2k>
hi all. I have LDM_DIRECTX = True in my lts.conf, but today it doesn't seem to be working for some reason - I can see every session is running via SSH, and the users are complaining about slowness. Normally it works fine - any ideas?
16:37
<||cw>
just saying, vmware doens't write all the drivers
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16:55
<gdi2k>
kirby, you should pause when going on break - you've left it in a dead call, which will make your stats look bad
16:55
<alkisg>
gdi2k: echo $DISPLAY on a logged in thin client
16:57
<gdi2k>
:50.0
16:57
<alkisg>
Which distro/version?
16:58
<gdi2k>
it's ubuntu (xubuntu), version 12.10
16:58
<alkisg>
!screen_02
16:58
<ltsp>
screen_02: To get a root shell on an Ubuntu thin client: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ClientTroubleshooting#Using_a_shell_SCREEN
16:58
<alkisg>
From there, type getltscfg -a
16:59
<gdi2k>
no way to do it remotely? I'm not onsite
17:00
ah yes, troubleshooting via ssh, see it now...
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17:05
<imox>
ok I'm back :D how can I change my boot screen ;) I tried it yesterday but it will not work ;(
17:10
<vagrantc>
LDM_THEME=NAME where /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/share/ldm/themes/NAME exists and contains the right content
17:10
or if it's in your NBD image
17:11
on debian-based systems, you can use update-alternatives, but that requires rebuilding the image to change the theme, and is a bit cumbersome
17:11
<imox>
yes I have ubuntu
17:13
vagrantc: I treid with LDM_THEME=NAME but it dosnt work. I already change the symlink from the default to my new folder but alos no effect
17:14
<vagrantc>
maybe your new folder doesn't have valid content?
17:14
<imox>
hmm no
17:14
<vagrantc>
although changing the default symlink should at least cause the theme to break
17:14
<imox>
I have this bootlogo when I start the server
17:14
its the same folder
17:14
if I start the image I have another boot screen
17:15
<vagrantc>
and you've gotten this logo to work as an LDM theme?
17:15
<imox>
?
17:15
<alkisg>
The LDM theme doesn't affect the plymouth splash screen, does it?
17:15
<vagrantc>
how do you know it's valid if you've never gotten it to work?
17:15
<imox>
ok
17:15
then I don't know ;)
17:16
what I should do now ;)?
17:18
<alkisg>
Are you talking about the plymouth splash: http://www.tux-planet.fr/public/images/screenshots/distributions/ubuntu/ubuntu-10.04/ubuntu-10.04-lucid-lynx-plymouth.png
17:18
Or about LDM? https://www.stgraber.org/download/images/ldm-natty.png
17:18
<vagrantc>
you sure the image you're updating is the image that's booting?
17:18
<imox>
yes
17:19
<vagrantc>
how?
17:19
<imox>
plymouth splash
17:20
<alkisg>
Install the plymouth-theme-ubuntu-logo package in the chroot
17:20
(or xubuntu or whatever else you want)
17:21
That's not related to LTSP, btw
17:22
<gdi2k>
alkisg, I managed to execute getltscfg -a on a client. LDM_DIRECTX = "True" is present in the config
17:22
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6525/kaf2.png
17:23
<alkisg>
Hehe, epoptes :)
17:23
<gdi2k>
yes, couldn't get ssh to work on the client
17:23
epoptes is great
17:24
<alkisg>
I'm not sure what goes wrong there, LDM_DIRECTX appears to be True and yet the DISPLAY is wrong? Unless you somehow got the wrong DISPLAY...
17:24
<imox>
but I see the ubuntu I want the xubuntu :D
17:24
<alkisg>
gdi2k: echo $DISPLAY there, on the epoptes window
17:25
imox: then install the plymouth-theme-xubuntu-logo package in the chroot
17:25
<gdi2k>
heh, now it's 7
17:25
:7
17:25
so now it's working
17:26
<alkisg>
Yup
17:26
And if you e.g. broadcast something with epoptes, and run `top` on the server, you shouldn't be seeing much CPU usage from sshd processes
17:29
<gdi2k>
kirby, on a dead call, browsing (bidding)
17:29
please don't
17:30
<imox>
thanks it works :
17:30* vagrantc wonders what's all this stuff about kirby
17:31
<gdi2k>
opos
17:31
wrong window lol
17:37
alkisg, thanks for your help, looks like some of the clients didn't boot with the correct options. rebooting affected clients seems to be working.
17:37
<alkisg>
Maybe a broken lts.conf (syntax error etc)....
17:38
<gdi2k>
look ok? http://pastebin.com/m15mDZM5
17:42
<alkisg>
No, not now that getltscfg -a worked, I was talking about the previous client boot, in case lts.conf was changed between boots...
17:45
<gdi2k>
I see - I only added the SCREEN lines since last reboot. anyway, it's working for now, thanks
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20:06
<kev_j>
anyone have any recommendations on a sip phone for xfce / lxde?
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20:37
<Hyperbyte>
kev_j, www.sflphone.org
20:37
Not sure if it runs on xfce or lxde though
21:08
<kev_j>
I tried that one and couldnt seem to get the audio to work for it
21:09
it didn't have any audio device selection in the settings (that I could find)
21:09
I am trying to get jitsi to work, but it seems screwy...
21:18
<||cw>
fat client?
21:18
sip over thin client I don't see being reliable
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21:38
<kev_j>
it seems to be working fairly well when I get the sound working properly... getting there can be a bit of a bitch though
21:39
it's a usb dongle to a headset (wired) and everytime I restart it resets back to the built in audio...
21:40
<vagrantc>
we probably need to use udev to fire off our sound handling...
21:40
back when we wrote the sound stuff, i don't think we thought about usb audio devices... i.e. hotpluggable devices
21:41
most things are fired off from udev now, with a few exceptions
21:42
<kev_j>
would that be something I could tweak or would that most likely be over my head?
21:44
<vagrantc>
we would welcome another developer! :)
21:45
it involves a fair amount of plumbing :)
21:46
<kev_j>
crapity... I would be more than willing, but I don't think I have anywhere near enough experience... I started messing with linux 2 years ago and mainly trying to learn administration stuffs
21:47
<vagrantc>
no way to learn like practical application :)
21:51
<kev_j>
well where would I start? that's how I got this far, so can't hurt to try...
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