IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 4 November 2015   (all times are UTC)

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02:53
<fnurl>
test
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05:22
<karchungsek>
i am new user . i want to install adobe flash player but i cant . Can some one teach me step by step. Thanks a lot
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06:22
<karchungsek>
aorry disconnected.
06:30
<alkisg>
karchungsek: why do you think that installing flash is specific to ltsp?
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07:40* fnurl is pleased to get a good result from pandoc today :D
07:41
<alkisg>
Hi fnurl :)
07:41
<fnurl>
heya - how you been?
07:42
<alkisg>
All fine! I've sent the last LTSP build to the PPA and we're ready to go whenever you want
07:42
The pandoc chart is impressive, it has a lot of formats there
07:42
http://pandoc.org/diagram.jpg
07:42
<fnurl>
ya - very very cool tool
07:43
it's not 100% perfect, but it does a helluva good job regardless
07:43
lemme pm you 1s
07:51
<maldridge>
I've got pandoc plugged into a mail-to-print system and it provides very good results most of the time; its one of the best programs I'd never heard of
08:00
<fnurl>
i read about it recently, and I'm well impressed, i'm trying to overhaul all of our documentation, and using pandoc is likely to save me hundreds of hours
08:01
moving from email as version control (OMG kill me) with MS docs -> markdown & git versioning with pandoc for IDML/HTML
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08:21
<alkisg>
!vnc-dide | echo fnurl:
08:21
<ltsp`>
fnurl: vnc-dide: To share your screen with me, run this: sudo apt-get --yes install x11vnc; x11vnc -connect srv1-dide.ioa.sch.gr - this is a reverse connection, it doesn't need port forwarding etc.
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08:34
<fnurl>
bacl, not sure what happened there :S
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12:42
<muppis>
!raspberry
12:42
<ltsp`>
I do not know about 'raspberry', but I do know about these similar topics: 'raspberrypi'
12:42
<muppis>
!raspberrypi
12:42
<ltsp`>
raspberrypi: (#1) Ubuntu/LTSP on Pi 2: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/RaspberryPi, or (#2) Debian/LTSP (with raspbian chroot) on Pi: http://cascadia.debian.net/trenza/Documentation/raspberrypi-ltsp-howto/, or (#3) unofficial Ubuntu/LTSP (with raspbian chroot) on Pi: http://pinet.org.uk/
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15:45
<hydruid>
Good morning. What's the best approach so that a thin client can access their local hard drive?
15:45
I enabled LocalDev and Local_Storage in lts.conf but that didn't seem to work
15:45
I found this troubleshooting guide but it's dated, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebugLocalDev
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16:17
<||cw>
hydruid: I haven't used that, but maybe it only works on usb disks? or only fat32? what is on the local disk?
16:18
<hydruid>
||cw: it's a local sata drive with ntfs
16:18
<||cw>
if it's ntfs you probably need to add ntfs-3g package to the client image
16:18
<hydruid>
||cw: ahhh good point, thank you I didn't think of that
16:18
<||cw>
unless that pipes the raw block device, which IIRC it doens't
16:19
<hydruid>
||cw: I know before it worked without a hitch but I think that was with a fat client
16:20
<||cw>
fat client runs the session locally, so yeah
16:20
much easier to make that work
16:21
<hydruid>
||cw: yes it is, I'm in the process of building a fat client now, I'm limited on time
16:21
||cw: thank you for your help, it's good to see the LTSP community still has helpful members
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16:29
<sbalneav>
vagrantc: ping
16:29
<vagrantc>
sbalneav: heya!
16:30
<sbalneav>
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~lightdm-team/lightdm-webkit-greeter/trunk/revision/24
16:30
The patches I came up with at BTS for making lightdm-webkit-greeter work properly with pam were accepted upstream.
16:31
If you're building fat clients, and want proper pam messages, you can now use lightdm-webkit-greeter.
16:31
Only problem is, there isn't a package in debian for it.
16:31
<vagrantc>
with libpam-sshauth, or arbitrary pam modules?
16:32
<sbalneav>
Both
16:32
Hence my patches :D
16:32
<vagrantc>
nice!
16:33
<sbalneav>
Do you know anyone (hint-hint) who'd sponsor it in debian?
16:33
It WORKS in debian, I'm using it now on our thin clients
16:34
But I had to do the old manual compile shuffle
16:34
<vagrantc>
well, i can give it a look-over!
16:34
ah, you want packaging, too? :)
16:35
sbalneav: do you know if they're likely to make a "release" anytime soon?
16:36
<sbalneav>
the 0.2 version was recently released
16:36
<vagrantc>
but that seems to be missing some useful patches!
16:36
<sbalneav>
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~lightdm-team/lightdm-webkit-greeter/trunk/revision/21
16:36
Yeah
16:36
That's the problem.
16:37* vagrantc git clones it
16:37
<sbalneav>
The next version of debian's a while off, so I'm not too worried about it getting in, like TOMORROW or anything.
16:37
I'll ask him if he can release a 0.2.1 or something.
16:40
<vagrantc>
not urgent
16:40
but it would help to get it through the NEW queue
16:42
sbalneav: would probably be good to contact the team(s) already maintaining lightdm related packages.
16:43
or not, they're apparently still using svn
16:44
sbalneav: how confident are you it'll be maintainable in the long-term?
16:45
<sbalneav>
Which, lightdm-webkit-greeter?
16:46
It's VERY simple; when you look at the C code, it's essentially a giant piece of plumbing, just mapping lightdm API calls onto calls to javascript.
16:46
The greeter's VERY simple.
16:47
Plus, the bonus for LTSP is: writing an "ltsp greeter" to ship with LTSP means we can dump LDM and just write a greeter that will work with all the pam stuff we want, AND it's just HTML and Javascript
16:47
No compiled code.
16:47
<vagrantc>
ah, so we can ship a custom greeter using lightdm-webkit-greeter as an engine/backend?
16:48
<sbalneav>
bingo.
16:48
It's a huge win/win
16:48* vagrantc isn't entirely sure javascript is a selling point
16:48
<vagrantc>
but i guess it's what all the cool kids are using
16:48
<sbalneav>
Well, it's better than compiled C.
16:48
<vagrantc>
or all the cool teens, surely the cool kids have moved onto something else
16:49
<sbalneav>
If we can get just about all of our "compiled code" down to libpam_sshauth, we'll be laughin.
16:52
<vagrantc>
i've been wondering if libpam_sshauth is the way to go for a while ... if it wouldn't work better to figure out how to use LDAP, winbind, or other existing PAM infrastructure
16:53
or a sql-pam backend, or ...
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16:55
<vagrantc>
sbalneav: i saw that you "approved" some libpam-sshauth merge request ... did you end up merging it?
16:57
alkisg has thrown around a lot of ideas regarding some future design... it might not necessarily hinge on ssh so much
16:57* vagrantc isn't quite sure what could spark some fresh LTSP6 development
16:58
<vagrantc>
but it seems like we're a little fragmented, mostly discussing development on irc whenever we happen to have ideas
17:02
<sbalneav>
vagrantc: Nort use
17:02
Not yet
17:02
Yeah, well, I've been busy as hell for the last 3 -4 years. I keep meaning to jump back in.
17:03* vagrantc nods
17:03
<sbalneav>
I'll get back to it.
17:03
I retire in 7 years 11 months.
17:03
<vagrantc>
heh!
17:03
<sbalneav>
I'm serious.
17:04
One of my plans for retirement is to spend a significant amount of time doing free software devel
17:04
<vagrantc>
won't that be a time to run off into the woods and forget about computers? :)
17:05
<sbalneav>
Winter: Free Software dev.
17:05
Summer: boating :D
17:05
<vagrantc>
two seasons
17:05
<sbalneav>
I live in Canada :D
17:06
There's "winter" and everything else :D
17:09
<vagrantc>
here the seasons are basically wet and dry, though it's been a little confused the past couple years
17:09
alkisg: any thoughts on the lightdm-webkit-greeter mentioned above?
17:11
<maldridge>
vagrantc: I haven't read the scrollback, but lightdm-webkit-greeter is old, mostly unmaintained, and very, *very* buggy
17:12
<vagrantc>
maldridge: looks like it's had a burst of development since october ... prior to that commits back in 2012
17:12
<maldridge>
ah, just read scrollback; you want no part of it
17:12
I'm getting ready to refactor it out of a large lab config set because it has a bad habit of not exiting
17:13
and has very little capability to expose fields to the greeter
17:13
bbiaf
17:16
<sbalneav>
maldridge: Funny, becase as of right now, it's the ONLY greeter in which you have a chance of implementing the full pam conversation.
17:18
Neither lightdm-gtk-greeter nor lightdm-kde-greeter pass through the pam convo properly; they're expecting a userid/password -> pass/fail, and can't handle the pam stack asking subsequent questions like what will happen if you do password expiry and password quality checks via pam_cracklib or pam_passwdqc
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17:28
<vagrantc>
sbalneav: giving a quick go at packaging...
17:31
<sbalneav>
Cool
17:36
<maldridge>
sbalneav: interesting; whie I care about those features, I care more that my users don't get launched into a session with a dead fullscreen white window with title "lightdm-webkit-greeter"
17:37
<sbalneav>
I'm using it production right now.
17:37
Not seeing that at all.
17:37
<maldridge>
interesting, any suggestions you can offer?
17:38
<sbalneav>
I recently submitted patches.
17:38
<maldridge>
we're running straight ubuntu 14.04, tons of problems with it not exiting
17:39
<sbalneav>
One of the key features that wasn't implemented was the "in_authentication" callback, so you could tell in your scripts if it wasn't authenticated yet.
17:39
Also, they hadn't implemented a key lightdm feature which was authenticating with a NULL userid, thus causing PAM to do the prompting for the username.
17:40
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~lightdm-team/lightdm-webkit-greeter/trunk/revision/24
17:40
<maldridge>
hm, the thing I'm more interested in is pulling arbitrary information from 3rd sources; most notably we store loginShell in ldap at my site, and i don't currently have a way to have that follow users
17:40
<vagrantc>
sbalneav: https://cascadia.debian.net/~vagrant/debian/pool/main/l/lightdm-webkit-greeter/
17:40
sbalneav: how do those look?
17:40
<sbalneav>
I'm using libpam_ldapd and loginShell works for me.
17:40
vagrantc: looking
17:41
vagrantc: after lunch I'll install from your pkgs, and check.
17:41
In 10 minutes I gotta pop out for some errands.
17:43
maldridge: You're more than likely using the older version. There's been some new dev in the last couple of months. If you could either try vagrant's packages, or just do a bzr branch and compile of the upstream, I'd be interested to know if your problems go away.
17:44
<vagrantc>
sbalneav: those packages were built on sid ... not sure if they'll install on jessie
17:47
<sbalneav>
vagrantc: I can put together a sid vm
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17:52
<maldridge>
an interesting suggestion, unfortunately local policy prevents us from installing locally built/maintained versions. Is there a PPA or similar available?
17:54
<vagrantc>
not yet
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18:19
<bennabiy>
vagrantc, sbalneav: That is very encouraging. I would like to see how this progresses. I might be getting more time soon to be able to work on LTSP in the somewhat near future (within the next couple months).
18:21
<alkisg>
vagrantc: about the greeter, I don't know, I haven't understood the pam stuff well enough yet, I thought we wanted to use pam because it would work with any DM, if it'll only work on a single DM we might as well keep ours...
18:21
About ltsp6 ideas etc, we're starting to work on configd with Phantomas
18:21
Initially we'll use it alongside ltsp,
18:22
and after a couple of years it might be good enough to completely replace ltsp-client in a smooth migration, whenever each site is ready for it
18:22
configd => complements/replaces lts.conf, ldminfod, config-client => initially complements ltsp-client, in the future it may replace it
18:23
People may also use that outside of ltsp, without netbooted pcs
18:23
There's too much legacy in ltsp, it's difficult to care about backwards compatibility etc when you want a major upgrade
18:24
So a parallel configuration system will work best imho
18:27
Server-side=python/https, client-side=wget+shell script sourcing. We'll clearly define some phases where the client contacts the server, similar to ltsp-cluster, and as part of the configuration it'll be possible for the sysadmin to also setup forward ssh connections to the clients for tools like "exec-on-clients"
18:27
<bennabiy>
alkisg: where is more info on configd / config-client?
18:27
<alkisg>
bennabiy: there's none; the initial thought was for ltspd, but I think there's too much legacy there, http://wiki.ltsp.org/wiki/Dev:Ltspd
18:28
So that part might be aborted
18:28
We're now trying to document configd in a private google doc (will be a wiki in the future, of course), and have a few code snippets around
18:29
It's the part where we mostly chat for hours to define the infrastructure, then code a bit for proof of concept
18:30
<bennabiy>
That is great
18:31
<vagrantc>
alkisg: yeah, ideally what we'd have would work with any display manager ... but like you've suggested before, having a sane default display manager would be nice.
18:31
<bennabiy>
Dev for it going to be in launchpad, or through something like github?
18:32
<alkisg>
Something between those 2, I don't think it's very significant, as long as translations are easy for end users
18:32
<bennabiy>
base language going to be greek? ;)
18:33
<alkisg>
Haha, no, not at all :)
18:34
<bennabiy>
I keep trying to find a reason to learn greek, but have only learned a little (I get too easily distracted by other languages)
18:35
<alkisg>
Greek is difficult though, we have too much grammar... I think you'd need to find someone to talk with in greek in order to get motivated
18:36
<bennabiy>
Yes, which is part of my problem with languages... without someone to communicate with, no reason to learn to communicate.
18:36
<alkisg>
For us it's a bit difficult when we're developing in english, and there's no native english speaker in the team, and we're not sure if the template english strings that we're sending to the translators are good enough
18:37
<bennabiy>
english is about 1/2 greek at least anyways
18:38
<alkisg>
Well, "difficult" englsh words like empathy or anthropology are easy for us, but easy, latin-based ones initially are not
18:38
<bennabiy>
so, would you say it is all latin to you, if it is all greek to us?
18:39
<alkisg>
Here we say "it's chinese to us" :)
18:39
<bennabiy>
HAH
18:39
<alkisg>
Those even have completely different writing systems.... chaos!
18:40
<bennabiy>
Heh. I like Japanese, not so much chinese
18:40
Japanese has 4 writing systems
18:40
all interchangeable (to some degree)
18:41
<alkisg>
I think thats a real challenge, to learn japanese, chinese, or something of those arabic-based writing systems where you don't even understand where one letter ends and the other begins
18:42
...but again, no real motive for that other than curiosity :D
18:42
<bennabiy>
Arabic confuses me (writing wise) but I understand some arabic because of its similarity to hebrew
18:43
<alkisg>
The hebrew character (letter) differences are to subtle for me, I think many of them are the same!
18:43
*too
18:47
<bennabiy>
They can get confusing
18:47
especially when the print starts to rub off, or poor copy
18:47
<alkisg>
vagrantc (and the others): feature-wise, (not caring about how it will be implemented), what are you missing from ltsp?
18:49
<maldridge>
alkisg: reliable documentation for how to customize; reliable method for implementing kiosk computing
18:49
(that doesn't involve generating a ton of accounts)
18:49* bennabiy seconds documentation...
18:50* vagrantc concurs that documentation is lacking
18:50
<alkisg>
Right. So, while ltsp developers think of ltsp6 as a chance to clean up the code and have it better designed and more maintainable etc, from the user side, that won't offer anything...
18:50
I think that's one of the reasons that ltsp6 is advancing so slow...
18:51
<vagrantc>
main feature is implementing better guest-login functionality ...
18:51
<bennabiy>
vagrantc: I was thinking something similar
18:52
<maldridge>
that! I want ot have a lab of ~35 machines but allowing a single volatile account to log in everywhere
18:52
<vagrantc>
i've cobbled together a few parts to have anonymous logins with lightdm, with a local tmpfs homedir, no authentication or homedir mounting on the server
18:52
<bennabiy>
I would like to have a guest login that has a core set of files available, and restrictions put on it, but that nothing from the home directory lasts past the session
18:52
<alkisg>
E.g. why would switching to the lightdm-webkit-greeter help us with guest accounts? With the current ltsp code base, I don't think guest accounts are more than 50 lines of code away...
18:53
<vagrantc>
alkisg: you mean with LDM, or with lightdm, or what?
18:53
<maldridge>
well, I for one would enjoy lightdm-webkit because then I could plug in my existing greeter skin from our fat installs
18:53
<alkisg>
With the current LDM code base
18:53
<maldridge>
which I am unwilling to port back to a gtkrc based theme
18:53
<vagrantc>
i found it was easier to implement with libpam-mount & lightdm than implementing in LDM
18:53* bennabiy would like to do away with gtkrc...
18:54
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i would like to move to a more standard display manager so that themeing can be shared with other projects
18:54
maybe lightdm-webkit will just make that it's own special themeing again...
18:55
<bennabiy>
vagrantc - alkisg: what currently are the "inflexible" parts of ltsp? Where does the current LTSP not allow customization or flexibility towards configuration?
18:55
LDM and...
18:56
<maldridge>
one thing that I am dissapointed with currently is how hard it is to script ltsp deployment
18:56
<alkisg>
Oh, it's very flexible. It's just not always easy for non-developers to find where to put that code you want :)
18:56
<maldridge>
there seem to be too many systems available and no clear winner
18:56* bennabiy nods
18:56
<alkisg>
What do you mean "ltsp deployment"?
18:56
...script what, ltsp-build-client?
18:56
<maldridge>
alkisg: I use ansible, I'd like to know exactly what the best method is, and how to update the things within it
18:57
i.e. chroot vs. pnp / nfs vs. nbd
18:57
<alkisg>
maldridge: ansible is about maintaining a lot of pcs. ltsp is about maintaining one pc...
18:57
<bennabiy>
I more mean what would stand in the way of implementing customizations? I said LDM, because it is hard-coded.
18:57
<vagrantc>
maldridge: my most recent LTSP deployment is all done with ansible
18:57
<maldridge>
alkisg: yeah, but I manage all of my ltsp servers along with my other servers
18:57
<bennabiy>
is it the only compiled code in LTSP?
18:57
<maldridge>
vagrantc: are your playbooks public anywhere?
18:58
<vagrantc>
maldridge: no, they're too site-specific at the moment ... first project with ansible, need to clean it up a bit
18:58
or rewrite it from scratch :)
18:58
<alkisg>
maldridge: I don't understand how ltsp would help ansible replicate ltsp servers
18:58
<maldridge>
ok, I've got mine on github, and while they work, I haven't figured a good way yet to determine if there needs to be an image rebuild
18:58
<alkisg>
You can netboot ltsp servers from a golden ltsp server template, but that's not related to ansible...
18:59
<maldridge>
alkisg: basically a clear pipeline that can be followed to stand up an ltsp server (see above comment about multiple paths) and then a clear pipeline for keeping that server updated once its up (see above comment about chroots)
18:59
<vagrantc>
maldridge: ah, yes, the image rebuild i just manually remove the image file if i want to trigger a rebuild
19:00
<maldridge>
ah, so you are switching on stat.exists==true then?
19:00
<vagrantc>
maldridge: also, just doing ltsp-pnp-style
19:00
maldridge: checks if the file exists
19:01
<maldridge>
ok, makes sense
19:01
<alkisg>
The "multiple paths to install an ltsp server" is getting in the way of selecting one of those paths?
19:01
E.g. ltsp-build-client is needed for raspberry pis, while ltsp-pnp is suited for plain i386 installations...
19:01
<maldridge>
since there is very arguably no clear winner, I find writing lots of special scripts and special casing for various labs
19:01
<alkisg>
I don't think it will be an improvement to limit the methods there
19:01
<vagrantc>
alkisg: my biggest frustration with NBD is when doing development, i can quickly run out of disk space because of deleted image files holding open inodes...
19:01
<maldridge>
for example, nfs vs nbd
19:02
vagrantc: I haven't had that issue on btrfs, but ymmv
19:02
<alkisg>
vagrantc: then use nbd + btrfs or ext4
19:02
Not squashfs
19:02
<vagrantc>
fair enough
19:02
NFS vs. NBD may be a moot point if overlay FS in mainline linux continues to be broken with NFS as a backend
19:03
<maldridge>
alkisg: I'm not suggesting limited choices, I'm suggesting a clear comparison of why each exists and why I would like to use each of them
19:03
<alkisg>
Documentation again then
19:03
<vagrantc>
the out-of-the box experience does lead one right to squashfs ... which for the most part works fine ...
19:04
<alkisg>
I think that's mostly up to "good users" than to the ltsp developers, though
19:04
<vagrantc>
alkisg: well, good developers could document the code when they implement it...
19:04
at least a stub that can be expanded on
19:05* vagrantc is to blame as much as anyone
19:05
<vagrantc>
easiest time to document a feature is when it goes into the VCS
19:05
<alkisg>
If they get paid for it, sure. If they have limited time for it, it's better to spend it on coding and let someone else document, with some help for it
19:05
<vagrantc>
true enough
19:05
<bennabiy>
at least even something which could prompt someone to pop in here and ask "What does this option do?" rather than having to know where in the code to look to try to implement feature x
19:06
<alkisg>
At one time, I suggested in the edubuntu list that I would help people with their issues as long as they documented the solutions in the wiki
19:07
The result was that a single person was interested :)
19:07
<vagrantc>
heh
19:07
tech support with a documentation agreement
19:07
<alkisg>
Many, many floss users just don't want to really contribute back
19:07
<vagrantc>
alkisg: you're too helpful
19:08
i suspect many don't have the confidence that they could actually contribute back
19:08
<maldridge>
^^
19:08* vagrantc has seen it enough
19:08
<maldridge>
the fear of failure is a very strong thing among people just coming into dev from an operations side
19:08
<alkisg>
That's true in several cases, but there are also many cases where people could contribute and just don't want to
19:09
<maldridge>
can you produce an example?
19:09
<alkisg>
Sure, localization
19:09
<bennabiy>
I would like to contribute, but often run into time conflicts
19:09
<alkisg>
Most greeks know english well enough to help there
19:09
Every time a new gnome comes out though, it's very difficult to find contributors for localization
19:09
<bennabiy>
perhaps there is something I could provide towards documentation
19:10
I guess I just do not know the best way to go about it
19:10
<maldridge>
personally, for ltsp6 I would like to see a shift away from dnsmasq
19:10
<alkisg>
For example, maldridge asked for guest accounts
19:10
I could point him to 2-3 solutions we've already given in the ML, or to 2-3 other ideas
19:10
And even code some new ones
19:11
...then he could put the solutions in the ltsp.org wiki
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19:11
<alkisg>
finally, when someone comes here, we could just do:
19:11
<maldridge>
alkisg: sure, and I think I've currently got one of the ML ones in use, but the fact remains that guest accounts have been asked for enough at this point to probably be an actual feature
19:11
<bennabiy>
My times are scattered. I would not mind updating the wiki with a few things which I know about, but if there was a way to even know what needs to be updated, or how to go about it...
19:11
<alkisg>
!guest-accounts
19:11
<ltsp`>
Error: "guest-accounts" is not a valid command.
19:11
<alkisg>
...and point him there
19:12
Someone would have to search the wiki, search what people are asking help for, and document what needs to be done etc
19:12
<maldridge>
actually no, I'm logging everyone in under a single account to get around a flaw in some closed source code
19:12* maldridge is at lunch
19:12
<bennabiy>
alkisg, vagrantc: how does one get write access to the wiki? What is the way to go about it?
19:12
<alkisg>
Guest accounts shouldn't relate to the server except for temporary disk space, not for authentication
19:12
It's already open (the wiki)
19:13
You just sign up or something
19:13
<bennabiy>
ok
19:13
I probably did that at one point
19:13* bennabiy cant remember yesterday...
19:13
<alkisg>
:)
19:13
(09:10:18 μμ) maldridge: personally, for ltsp6 I would like to see a shift away from dnsmasq ==> why is that?
19:13
<bennabiy>
Alkisg: when are you coming to the states again?
19:13
<alkisg>
For of all, dnsmasq is the only linux software that supports proxydhcp
19:14
bennabiy: no idea, but I'd love to come when I get the chance
19:14
<bennabiy>
alkisg: first of all?
19:14
<alkisg>
*first, yes sorry
19:14
There's something wrong when I'm trying to type in english while thinking something else in english... my hands type whatever they want :)
19:15
<bennabiy>
hah!
19:15
Happens to english speakers as well
19:15
<vagrantc>
stick to typing in C.UTF-8, then
19:15
<alkisg>
:P
19:15* bennabiy laughs
19:17* alkisg waves for now, bye all!
19:18alkisg is now known as work_alkisg
19:22* bennabiy waves.
19:22
<bennabiy>
Time for me to depart as well
19:22
Back either tomorrow or Friday.
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19:36
<maldridge>
work_alkisg: it does not, imho, subscribe to the UNIX philosophy of do one thing and do it well, instead allowing multiple services to die at once from an issue with a single daemon
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21:03
<epoptes_user2>
Can Epoptes be used remotely? I have eight children (not mine) with Edubuntu on laptops that I need to be abale to keep tabs on and administrate their computers. Yet we are in four different locations with internet access.
21:05
also i see i mayne in the wrong channel
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21:43work_alkisg is now known as alkisg
21:45
<alkisg>
vagrantc: I'm trying to install lubuntu-desktop in an armhf chroot, and it *indirectly* pulls some other packages like unity-control-center, which do not normally appear in a lubuntu installation.
21:45
Do you happen to know any apt command that will tell me which package it is that Recommends: unity-control-center?
21:45
I think `aptitude why` can do that but only after they are actually installed...
21:46
I'm reluctant to use --no-install-recommends because that may prevent other important packages from being installed..
21:54
<vagrantc>
alkisg: apt-cache rdepends sort of works, though poorly ...
21:54
it treats recommends, depends and maybe even suggests as the same thing
21:54* alkisg is trying a `for each package in $Depends; do apt-get install --simulate $package | grep unity`...
21:55
<alkisg>
thanks, I'll also check rdepends
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22:10
<alkisg>
lubuntu-desktop depends on lightdm, which recommends unity-greeter | kde-greeter, but not lightdm-gtk-greeter which is the one used by lubuntu... I'll install lightdm first without recommends
22:14
Nah, it's pulling a lot more packages that aren't there in a normal lubuntu installation
22:14
So, `apt-get install --no-install-recommends lubuntu-desktop^ lubuntu-core^` is a much better way to do that :)
22:14
<vagrantc>
what's the ^ ?
22:15
<alkisg>
Install a task's packages
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22:15
<alkisg>
We should make a note of that ^ somewhere for LTSP lubuntu users that use chroots instead of ltsp-pnp...
22:20
vagrantc, ogra_, so... I've found a cool way to boot ltsp clients without a network connection by using a local copy of the squashfs image. That's fine for raspberry pis, so that the SD card is always in read-only mode, whether they're booting from LAN or from the local SD.
22:20
But I'm having an issue in displaying a boot menu for users to select what to boot, ltsp or local
22:21
...does it make sense to display a menu inside the initramfs, from e.g. init-premount/ltsp?
22:21
(and then modify cmdline with bind-mounts... to strip nbdroot...)
22:21
Is there any other way to display a boot menu in raspbery pis or similar devices?
22:21
<vagrantc>
using u-boot ...
22:22
<alkisg>
The usb keyboard doesn't seem to work with u-boot
22:22
I think they only support the high speed mode, for the usb network card...
22:22
<vagrantc>
could be
22:22* vagrantc notes that there are no similar devices
22:22
<alkisg>
The other way I've thought of, is to detect if the eth0 link is up, then boot into ltsp, otherwise boot locally....
22:22
Haha
22:23
So that the users would need to unplug the network cable to boot locally
22:23
<vagrantc>
ouch
22:23
<alkisg>
Currently, I only have those 2 solutions, cable or initramfs menu...
22:24* vagrantc wonders if there's a way to reconfigure initramfs-tools without tweaking /proc/cmdline ...
22:24
<alkisg>
I couldn't think of any. Well, other than sed'ing though a lot of scripts which would be impossible to maintain
22:26
<vagrantc>
ah, because so many scripts check /proc/cmdline
22:26
<alkisg>
RIght
22:27* alkisg imagines the boot script message... "Please remove your ethernet cable within 5...4..3..2..1... seconds if you want to boot locally..."
22:27
<alkisg>
:P
22:27
<vagrantc>
and then plug it back in when you want internet access...
22:27
<alkisg>
Yes, it's just for a second
22:28* vagrantc wonders if there's a way to properly modify /proc/cmdline ...
22:28
<vagrantc>
seems... risky.
22:29
if kexec worked, that'd be an interesting workaround
22:30
alkisg: i think NOOBs does some crazy initramfs trickery ... but it may have an entirely custom initramfs... and is really just selecting different boot partitions/images
22:30
<alkisg>
vagrantc: I think noobs has a custom bootcode.bin, that's loaded before u-boot/the kernel etc, and it loads recovery.elf instead of kernel.img
22:30
<maldridge>
vagrantc: last I checked its doing some initramfs trickery and curling system files on the fly
22:31
<alkisg>
So it's a menu before linux, too early...
22:32
kexec will be wonderful when it's completely stable
22:32
<vagrantc>
why is that too early? that sounds perfect?
22:32
<alkisg>
it's a binary blob, completely unmodifiable by me
22:32
No scripting/menuing capabilities
22:32
<vagrantc>
how did they modify it?
22:32
<alkisg>
They have the source code...
22:33* vagrantc shrugs
22:33
<alkisg>
Well, if I wanted to go down to modifying their own bootloader, sure, but they don't even have a menu system, it'd take a heck of a lot of work to do it
22:33
They only load recovery if they can't find kernel.img
22:33
They don't present a choice to the user
22:34
<vagrantc>
NOOBs definitely presented a boot menu ... though i thought it was in the initramfs
22:34
<alkisg>
Later on the check for kernel.img on a second partition or something, and the prefer that one over the recovery in the first partition
22:34
The graphical menu is after the initramfs, much later than the bootloader
22:35
It's in the image.fs or however the are calling it, I don't remember
22:35
Similar to our i386.img
22:35
the check... the prefer ==> I meant they, meh...
22:37
<vagrantc>
alkisg: could you boot differently if a file were present or missing? would that be good enough?
22:37
<alkisg>
With the same /proc/cmdline mangling from init-premount? Sure, any input will do, either the cable, a mouse click or a mouse completely removed, or a file missing etc...
22:38
But how would the user for a file to be missing?
22:38
*force
22:56
<vagrantc>
alkisg: well, the boot menu would involve mounting the SD card ...
22:56
alkisg: what's the use-case where you would want to both boot locally and over network?
22:56
<alkisg>
vagrantc: I have a pi that I can test ltsp with, or I can also use it as a standalone media player...
22:58
Or just imagine a classroom where the ltsp server has failed, a hardware problem etc, until it's solved (could take days) why shouldn't they be able to use the pis
22:59
Actually, I could just put a panic handler there, to catch the "nbd mount failed", and continue with local boot...
22:59
<vagrantc>
it's a lot of workarounds to support one buggy piece of hardware...
22:59
just happens to be a very popular piece of buggy hardware
23:00
<alkisg>
The live local ltsp part is not specific to ltsp
23:00
It has a lot of benefits. It's an easily customizable live system, with an lts.conf and everything
23:01
E.g. imagine again the ltsp server failing, and the students using their desktop pcs as local "ltsp clients" from their local hard disk
23:01
That's only one command away, a dd if=/dev/nbd0 of=/dev/sda, from epoptes... provided the clients do have disks
23:02
<vagrantc>
sure, i see value in those sorts of systems
23:02
but that's a lot easier to implement on x86, or even other arm boards ...
23:03
<alkisg>
The scripts are just bash
23:03
<vagrantc>
well, on x86, you could implement it in grub, or some other real bootloader
23:03
<alkisg>
Nothing pi-specific there... the problem with pi is that it doesn't have a boot manager... in PCs I would have a grub menu, boot ltsp from the network or locally
23:04* vagrantc nods
23:06
<alkisg>
Btw, /me would love it if our squashfs image did have a boot manager and a boot sector embedded, i.e. if it was directly dd'able
23:06
I don't think squashfs supports that though
23:07
<vagrantc>
we'd have to have a separate partition for that
23:07
unless there's a bootloader that supports reading from squashfs
23:09
<alkisg>
Squashfs could include an MBR, sure
23:10
Hmm a /boot partition would be needed, you're right
23:10
grub can read from squashfs, but it needs to be loaded first
23:11
OK then, again an ltsp-dd script to the rescue :)
23:13
vagrantc: I have a few of such scripts in sch-scripts, should I put them upstream in ltsp instead?
23:14
E.g. a client-side tool to dump the nbd image to the local disk, would that belong in upstream ltsp/
23:14
?
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23:17
<alkisg>
!client-list
23:17
<ltsp`>
client-list: to get a list of all nbd-clients (which sometimes is the same as ltsp clients), run: netstat -tn | sed -n 's/.*:10809 *\([0-9.]*\):.*/\1/p' | sort -Vu
23:19alkisg is now known as work_alkisg
23:20
<vagrantc>
work_alkisg: a client-side tool to generate a bootable image you can drop on disk sounds useful to me...
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