IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 10 February 2016   (all times are UTC)

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09:09
<blondie>
ahoi
09:10
alkisg, I still can't get the wireless ap to work, guess I'll have to study the basics of networking more... :)
09:11
Another little problem, I'm experimenting with Linux Mint MATE, for some reason the MintMenu doesn't load on the clients
09:11
maybe this is more a Mint related problem
09:12
though it seems the menu suddenly starts working after installing epoptes
09:13
I'd say 'mysteriously'
09:14
<alkisg>
blondie: if you added the greek schools ppa, that fixed the menu
09:14
I've fixed the menu issues in newer ltsp versions, and uploaded them to that ppa
09:15
<blondie>
ah okay great!
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10:39
<blondie>
alkisg, I added the ppa to the server & chroot and updated both + the image but still no Mint menu here
10:39
<alkisg>
blondie: didn't you say it started working after epoptes? Did it stop again now/
10:39
?
10:42
<blondie>
this is another install from scratch
10:42
I have the working one on another hdd
10:42
<alkisg>
If you install from scratch, then try not to use mint
10:43
Its packaging is very broken
10:43
<blondie>
ok
10:43
<alkisg>
Try to use ubuntu mate with mint menu instead
10:43
<blondie>
yep
10:43
<alkisg>
This is almost the same as mint, but with proper packaging
10:43
bennabiy added the mint support in ltsp, but I don't know if he supports bugs that users find
10:43
While mate etc are properly supported
10:44
<blondie>
i could also go with 16.04 but there's some bug with dhcp-server
10:44
Since I won't need a stable production environment until April
10:46
Will it be possible to upgrade Ubuntu MATE 14.04 to 16.04? I think Trusty MATE is not official Ubuntu release
10:47
<alkisg>
I think it'll be possible to upgrade, yes
10:48
And you can use dnsmasq if isc-dhcp has issues
10:48* alkisg is on 16.04 currently...
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12:15
<blondie_>
Hmm. Should I use gigabit nic for lan and 10/100 for wan or the other way around?
12:15
We connect to internet via LTE usb stick
12:16
and we have approx. 10 fat clients
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12:52
<Hyperbyte>
blondie_, why would you deliberately choose 10/100 instead of gigabit?
12:52
Anyway, question is what uses more bandwith..... the LTE usb stick or 10 LTSP fat clients?
12:53
My guess would be the LTSP clients. I don't think your LTE stick will go above 100mbit
12:55
<blondie_>
I'm working with donated recycled parts and currently we have only 10/100 cards
12:55
+ the gigabit cards on mobo
12:59
but yeah you're probably right
13:00
time's up. :)
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13:36
<bennabiy>
alkisg: it is an issue with the package python-xlib. When it got updated to -trusty3 it broke mintmenu.
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14:26
<alkisg>
bennabiy: mint packaging in general is very broken, I think it's best to instruct people to prefer mate instead of mint...
14:26
<bennabiy>
I have no problem with that... I still run mint, and will support it as best as I can until I stop using it.
14:26
I just know the issue and the solution
14:27
for now
14:27
<alkisg>
Sure, it's just my own opinion on the matter, what my own advice to people is...
14:28
When contents of .deb packages are modified by mint, they'll be overwritten on upgrades, so it'll break, so I suggest to people not to use such bad packages, nothing more
14:28
If people want to use them, they can do so; I just want to warn them that it's broken
14:35alkisg is now known as alkisg_away
14:38
<bennabiy>
I am considering switching to Ubuntu mate in the future, but as of yet, have not had reason to.
14:38
alkisg: can you give me an example of the "bad packaging" you are talking about?
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16:48
<alkisg>
bennabiy: sure, e.g. run this: dpkg -S /etc/os-release
16:48
It should say "base-files"
16:49
That means that file belongs to that package
16:49
Yet some mint postinst or cd generation script goes and writes to that file
16:50
So then when an update comes to base-files, it overwrites the mint changes, and it's no longer marked as mint anymore
16:50
Such actions are prohibited by the debian policy, so mint is clearly broken
16:51
The minimum they could do would be to dpkg-divert that file so that they can then ship their own override, but they don't know or care enough about packaging to do things properly, so they break
16:55
If you remember, when you tried to get mint support in ltsp, you bumped into a lot of such issues, because they didn't bother to do it properly and become a "flavor" and they tried to be branded as their own "distro" by just sed'ing through files, which is a very broken way to do it
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17:49
<bennabiy>
alkisg: thank you.
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17:51
<bennabiy>
In mint 17.3 os-release contains Ubuntu 14.04.3 LTS ID=ubuntu etc...
17:52alkisg_away is now known as alkisg
17:52
<alkisg>
bennabiy: that's probably because you updated it and the mint file got overwritten :)
17:52
<bennabiy>
Probably not
17:52
<alkisg>
Try with the live cd
17:53
<bennabiy>
I will have to try it later
17:53
I need to get back to baking
17:56
<alkisg>
bennabiy: check /etc/lsb-release
17:56
That's also in base-files, it should say "mint" until overwritten with a newer version
17:56
...when it will say "ubuntu"
17:58
<bennabiy>
yes, it says LinuxMint
17:59
<alkisg>
If I run `apt-get dist-upgrade`, I get prompted about that file by dpkg
17:59
It says it's been modified and it asks if I want the package maintainer's version or my own version
18:00
<bennabiy>
yes, and I choose to keep my version
18:00
<alkisg>
And since I didn't modify the file myself, I select the package maintainer's version and I get ubuntu there
18:00
That's against debian policy
18:00
Packages are not allowed to mess with conffiles of other packages
18:01
Other files affected (for base-files only) are /etc/issue.net and /etc/issue
18:01
<bennabiy>
yes
18:02
<alkisg>
Mate doesn't do that, it respects debian policy
18:03
(packages that don't respect debian policy aren't accepted in the debian archives)
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18:15
<alkisg>
Here, ask vagrantc how he feels about mint shipping its own version of /etc/lsb-release with LinuxMint inside it, and then base-files prompts to put it back to e.g. Ubuntu on updates... :)
18:16* alkisg guesses vagrantc isn't very fond of packages messing with other package's conffiles... :D
18:21
<vagrantc>
why doesn't mint ship it's own package for that instead?
18:22
ship it under and alternate package name, conflict with the other package...
18:23
<alkisg>
My guess is that they don't have time to read about packaging and they use a "create-my-live-cd" script
18:23
I think that script isn't even public, only the mint developer has it
18:26
<bennabiy>
I can post this conversation to the devs there.
18:27
<vagrantc>
what's the fundamental issue? there's no proper way to distinguish between linuxmint and ubuntu?
18:28* vagrantc also recalls some bug about LMDE trying to install ubuntu
18:28
<vagrantc>
just to make matters worse...
18:29
<alkisg>
The conversation started with a user trying ltsp on mint, and he had some repository+upgrade issues, prompts etc, so I suggested to him to prefer mate instead :)
18:29
About those base-files ...files, linuxmint could just be an ubuntu flavor, it doesn't have to pretend to be a distro...
18:30
<vagrantc>
it's kind of awkwardly in the middle, from the looks of it
18:30
they have enough of their own packages that it's not really an ubuntu flavor
18:30
or at least, used to
18:31
<bennabiy>
I agree, it is somewhere in the middle
18:31
<vagrantc>
and the packages aren't included in ubuntu, which is the real killer
18:31
<bennabiy>
Most of the development support they do is on the Cinnamon DE
18:31
yes
18:31
<alkisg>
How many packages do they have different than mate+cinnamon or mate+metacity?
18:32
I think the problem is that they don't want to take the time and properly package it, it's easier to create a "create-my-live-cd" script than all the proper packages that would replace that
18:33
<vagrantc>
is the "don't upgrade kernels" feature/bug implemented in a package, or just some files that get installed by magic?
18:33
<alkisg>
I face the same problem with sch-scripts, and that's why I haven't yet internationalized it, because I understand it's hackish and not a proper solution
18:36
<bennabiy>
it is implemented through mintUpdate
18:36
afaik
18:36
you can push past it easily with an apt-get upgrade / dist-upgrade
18:36
It actually includes a kernel chooser, pick your kernel, and also see any known regressions associated
18:38
<vagrantc>
which is what?
18:47
<bennabiy>
I think it is all packaged with mintUpdate
18:49
<alkisg>
"package" is a different concept than "script"
18:49
If mintupdate was a package, it would be able to make it to the debian repositories
18:50
If it's a hackish method to maintain updates, that doesn't integrate with apt etc, then it's not really a package
18:50
<bennabiy>
it is a python script
18:51
<alkisg>
AFAIK Mint has good code but really lame packaging
18:51
It shouldn't try to be a distro, there are whole DEs that are not distros, mint doesn't offer that many new things that can justify it being a distro
18:52
E.g. devs at raspbian created a distro because they had to support armv6
18:52
But they try to put each of their general-purpose solutions in debian
18:53
mint doesn't try that... mate does try it
18:53
<||cw>
what's the advantage of Mint now that mate and cinnamon are in other distros?
18:54
<bennabiy>
looks and more stable code base?
18:55* alkisg agrees with "looks" and completely disagrees with "stable" :)
18:56
<||cw>
so mate on ubuntu looks different than mate on mint?
18:56
<bennabiy>
alkisg: just to clarify, mint+mate , not mint or mate
18:56
yes
18:56
they have put a fair bit into the UI polish
18:57
as well as menu and updater
18:57
<||cw>
hm, screen shots don't look that different to me
18:58
<bennabiy>
It is similar, but more polished in the theming
18:58
I guess you could import mint's theming into ubuntu-mate and have it look similar
18:58
<||cw>
k, i tend to look at applications, not themes so...
18:59
<bennabiy>
applications, they have forked a few of them... I thnk they have done disks, perhaps some others... cannot say for certain right now
18:59
<alkisg>
The proper way to fork is like mate did
18:59
They changed all the program names, e.g. gedit => pluma
19:00
So then both gedit and pluma are in the archives
19:00
No need to hackish overrides, or apt pinning, or blocking etc
19:00
Mint needs its own repositories mainly because it's not doing it properly
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19:01
<alkisg>
So mate is more stable because it's doing it right, it won't break with regular usage
19:01
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i generally agree ... but #ltsp probably isn't going to change the status quo on that
19:02
<alkisg>
Sure, but I'll keep suggesting mate to ltsp users that have issues with mint, and since bennabiy asked me I took the opportunity to explain why I do suggest that...
19:03* vagrantc nods
19:03
<vagrantc>
and if you really want cinnamon, that's available too...
19:03
<alkisg>
Yup, I refer to mate because it plays better with thin clients
19:03
<vagrantc>
haven't tried it in a while, never really was fond of it ...
19:04
<alkisg>
cinnamon is fine for fat clients
19:04
<vagrantc>
yeah
19:04
alkisg: how's progress of ltsp/ldm/epoptes going in ubuntu?
19:04
<alkisg>
Let me check...
19:05
<vagrantc>
might actually have an LTS release that doesn't require using a ppa?
19:05
<bennabiy>
I am not offended. I personally like mint, and appreciate the developers hard work on it, and especially their early support for mate before it was fashionable.
19:05
from them...
19:05
<glebihan> bennabiy, he is completely mistaken about what happens during an upgrade btw, the files don't get overwritten and still refer to mint
19:05
<bennabiy> if done through mintupdate
19:05
<bennabiy> his beef is that it breaks debian policy
19:05
<glebihan> nope, doesn't matter how it's done
19:05
<glebihan> there's a trigger in mintsystem that'll regenerate the correct files after an upgrade no matter how the upgrade is done
19:06
anyway
19:07
<alkisg>
I could also put an inotify hook to update packages in /etc
19:07
...it would still be hackish, since the proper way is for each package to modify its own conffiles
19:07* vagrantc doesn't see how that solves anything
19:07
<alkisg>
Yup, anyway
19:07
<bennabiy>
If someone is using linuxmint and wants to run LTSP, then I have allowed for them to do it...
19:07
<alkisg>
bennabiy: sure, I never meant that you did something wrong or that you didn't help users etc
19:08
And at that time, mate wasn't really available
19:08* vagrantc suspects linuxmint devs could spend more time at what they're good at by integrating into a distro...
19:08
<bennabiy>
probably, but I do not think they see it that way :) Difference in philosophy
19:08* vagrantc nods
19:09
<alkisg>
So, LDM has reached Xenial, but not LTSP. I wonder if that was because in the past it had an Ubuntu diff...
19:09
stgraber: does it need a manual sync?
19:09
<vagrantc>
and free software licenses allow everyone to shoot themselves in the foot with whatever tool they choose :)
19:09
<alkisg>
stgraber: Should I try to sync it? Did you move the edubuntu bits elsewhere?
19:09
<stgraber>
alkisg: it still does have a delta, the edubuntu stuff is still there so it needs merging
19:10
should be a trivial delta to re-apply though
19:10
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i also did another upload to fix an unrelated issue, maybe the version changing did something?
19:10
<alkisg>
No I think it's the delta issue preventing autosync
19:10
<vagrantc>
i thought the plan was to forget about the delta?
19:10
and move forward, into the future...
19:10
<stgraber>
the plan is to move the delta to some Edubuntu package
19:10
<alkisg>
stgraber: could you do the sync, since I haven't used edubuntu in a while and I wouldn't know about the delta?
19:10
<stgraber>
but that involves me or highvoltage having the time to do so
19:11
<vagrantc>
hrm.
19:11
<bennabiy>
off to baking
19:11
<alkisg>
stgraber: the ltsp version in xenial is completely broken, so the merging does need to somehow happen before release...
19:11
<vagrantc>
and now we're back to where ltsp doesn't get updated because of lack of time by the people who need to
19:11
<stgraber>
alkisg: yeah, merging should take me a minute, doing that now
19:12
<alkisg>
Thanks :)
19:15
vagrantc, stgraber, highvoltage, ogra_, mgariepy, btw my zatab tablet screen glass has broken a bit, does anyone have that tablet bricked so that I could buy his screen glass? :)
19:15
<stgraber>
the glass panel on mine is dead too :)
19:15
<highvoltage>
alkisg: stgraber broke his on the first time he used it
19:15
<alkisg>
Hehe
19:16
<highvoltage>
alkisg: mine just has a bunch of tiny scratches on it, I'll give it a software wipe and send it over, email me your address
19:17
<alkisg>
highvoltage: it still works? don't send it then if it's still functional, mine is broken but it's still in one piece...
19:18
<highvoltage>
alkisg: it still works but I have enough tablets and not using that one at all. if you really want it broken... I can fix that ;)
19:18
<stgraber>
alkisg: just did the merge, remaining delta is just the Edubuntu thing: http://paste.ubuntu.com/15010480/
19:18
<alkisg>
highvoltage: thanks a lot, I'll send you the address :)
19:18
<stgraber>
uploaded
19:19
<alkisg>
stgraber: cool! It's been a long time since ubuntu had a working ltsp, it's nice that 16.04 will ship a recent one
19:31
Hmm sometimes `ltsp-update-image -c /` pops a nautilus window for the /tmp/XXXX mount... nautilus became tooo smart, I should probably put a mask to make it non-accessible by the current user...
19:41
<Hyperbyte>
highvoltage, +1
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