IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 28 February 2014   (all times are UTC)

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03:22
<ball>
Does ltsp use xdm (and xdmcp)?
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18:12
<hydruid>
should /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf and /etc/dhcp/dhcpd.conf be the same?
18:13
I guess I'm not sure why there are 2
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18:14
<hydruid>
alkisg: Good afternoon, setting up a new LTSP install, should /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf and /etc/dhcp/dhcpd.conf be the same?
18:14
<vagrantc>
hydruid: you can include the ltsp one from the dhcp one
18:15
hydruid: on ubuntu, i think they've hacked dhcpd to use the ltsp one if present
18:15
<hydruid>
vagrantc: ty for the info!
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18:15
<vagrantc>
hydruid: honestly, i think it's confusing how it's set up...
18:16
though i understand why...
18:16
<ogra>
all my fault :)
18:16
<hydruid>
:P
18:16
It makes sense now
18:16
<ogra>
i thought stgraber switched it to dnsmasq at some point
18:17
<hydruid>
modify your ltsp dhcp conf file, leave the primary alone
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18:17
<vagrantc>
i've definitely preferred dnsmasq lately
18:18
though it did have some bugs wit multiple simultaneous client boots
18:18
<alkisg>
dnsmasq has issues as a primary dhcp server, it doesn't support parallel pings
18:18
It's fine for a few clients, or for many clients as a proxydhcp server
18:19
<vagrantc>
nice. i didn't know if proxydhcp had those issues or not
18:19
<alkisg>
We should implement `ltsp-config dhcpd` and call it from postinst, and use the main dhcpd.conf...
18:19
<vagrantc>
yup
18:20
<alkisg>
And really, we should drop the ltsp ubuntu diff...
18:20
<vagrantc>
although i prefer using an include over meging it directly in
18:20
<alkisg>
Or dhcpd.d/ if it supports it... (or file a request for that...)
18:20
<vagrantc>
alkisg: stgraber said he would keep the networ range diff forever
18:20
alkisg: i filed a patch on dhcpd ages ago to add suport
18:21
<alkisg>
Forever? I thought he said that he'd change it in ltsp6
18:21
...when we'll break backwards compatibility for many things anyway...
18:21
<vagrantc>
ah, that'd be good
18:22
<alkisg>
Maybe we can even ship dnsmasq in ltsp6 as the default, and only support dhcpd as an option
18:22
I.e. recommends: dnsmasq | dhcpd...
18:22
<vagrantc>
an interesting idea
18:23
i like it
18:23
<stgraber>
yeah, I don't mind breaking the network range with ltsp6
18:23
<alkisg>
stgraber: do you also agree with defaulting to dnsmasq?
18:24
Big ltsp deployments will need to run "apt-get install ltsp-server-standalone isc-dhcp-server" then
18:24
...that should be all the "how to" changes involved to select dhcpd...
18:24* alkisg also thinks that big ltsp deployments would have an external dhcp server anyway...
18:25
<stgraber>
I may not be entirely opposed to this, we'll see.
18:25
<alkisg>
ok
18:25
<ogra>
alkisg, prob with main dhcpd.conf in ubuntu was always the "no questions on upgrades" policy ... its a conffile
18:25
thats the reason the ltsp/dhcpd.conf exists in the first place
18:25
<alkisg>
dnsmasq.d doesn't have that issue
18:26
<ogra>
it uses .d dirs, no ?
18:26
<alkisg>
Yup. And, we already have the prompt with e.g. nbd-server config
18:26
<ogra>
ouch
18:26
thats usually an RC bug in ubuntu
18:27
(but given a member of the release team is the main maintainer of ltsp in ubuntu ... :P )
18:27
<hydruid>
:P
18:27
<alkisg>
nbd-server didn't ship a config file previously, so we generated one. But now it does, and it's not exactly as we create it, hence the prompt
18:28
<ogra>
it should just use .d dirs too and source your config ;)
18:28
so you just need to move yours around
18:29
<alkisg>
It has a main config and a conf.d/ dir for exports
18:29
The main config is fine now, we never need to touch it, the problem was that it didn't ship it in the past
18:29
<ogra>
just drop yours in the new package then
18:30
should prevent the prompt
18:30
<alkisg>
No, it wouldn't
18:30
We didn't ship it, that would break package installation
18:30
<ogra>
if the package doesnt ship it anymore
18:30
<alkisg>
We created it, so the system thinks that the sysadmin created it
18:30
<ogra>
oh
18:31
<alkisg>
What we can do, is to send an update that checks that file,
18:31
and if it's exactly as we created it, then to "update" it to be exactly as shipped with the newer nbd-server,
18:31
so, when later on the newer nbd-server gets installed, it would find the same file and not prompt
18:32
That would need to be an LTSP SRU for all the previous ubuntu versions
18:32
...and I'm not sure if anyone would want to do the paperwork for it :)
18:33
<ogra>
yeah, i assume you will rather get the prompt from nbd-server here anyway
18:35
<alkisg>
A few months ago I've sent the newer nbd-server to 500 schools here. From them, only 2 asked what to do with the prompt... I.e. it's not that important.
18:35
<ogra>
its still a policy violation
18:35
<alkisg>
I haven't seen that policy
18:35
Maybe you're thinking of postinst actions
18:35
<ogra>
its somewhere on the wiki
18:35
<alkisg>
Not for things the sysadmin runs
18:35
<ogra>
like "no open ports by default on desktop"
18:35
<alkisg>
Like ltsp-config nbd-server
18:36
Shipping scripts that can change conffiles is not a policy violation
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18:36
<Leolo_3>
"New version of the system is available, restarting in 10s" how do I get rid of this?
18:36
<ogra>
i assume LTSP is special enough that you can get through with a release notes entry or so
18:37
alkisg, no, but causing debconf prompts during upgrades is
18:37
if your scripts manage to avoid that you are fine
18:37
<alkisg>
ogra: the packaging doesn't do that. The sysadmin does it.
18:37
<Leolo_3>
actaully... wtf is LDM crashing?
18:37
<alkisg>
When he runs `ltsp-update-image` the first time
18:37
<ogra>
how would he know
18:37
does ltsp-update-image tell him he will get a prompt for that later ?
18:37
<alkisg>
It's not a policy violation to provide executables that change conffiles
18:38
It's actually the opposite, it's a good thing to provide scripts for that
18:38
Although in this case, the nbd-server package should ship the script that changes the nbd-server config, not ltsp...
18:38
<ogra>
yes
18:39
i'm not saying shipping scripts are wrong
18:39
s/are/is/
18:39
<alkisg>
E.g. think of pam-auth-update
18:40
<ogra>
but if you call it by default due to preseeding (i.e. edubuntu) then it will cause a prompt during upgrade and thus break policy
18:40
<alkisg>
It's not "by default", it's only when the sysadmin selects "F4, build an ltsp server"
18:41
But anyways, nbd-server now ships a config so we no longer have to worry about that, only the first upgrade will have the problem
18:41
<ogra>
yeah
18:41* ogra will leave it to todays maintainers to worry about it :)
18:43
<hydruid>
This is a way too intensive conversion for a friday
18:44
*conversation
18:44
<ogra>
heh
18:44
should we troll a bit instead ?
18:44
given it is friday
18:44
<hydruid>
definitely
18:44
lol
18:45
vagrantc: ty again for the info on the dhcpd.conf's
18:45
vagrantc: you were correct, ubuntu automatically saw the changes I put into /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf
18:48
<vagrantc>
hydruid: glad it hlped
18:48
editing other packages configuration files in an automated manner is definitely a policy violation
18:49
on debian
18:49
providing a script that does it technically complies, but doesn't quite meet the spirit
18:53
<Leolo_3>
good god
18:53
why am I updating to LTSP 5?
18:54
LDM keeps crashing. I keep getting "newer version exists" messages
18:54
<vagrantc>
to not be left in 2005?
18:54
<Leolo_3>
2005 didn't crash
18:54
<vagrantc>
but it is obsolete... anyways
18:55
<ogra>
dead and buried since years and years
18:55
<Leolo_3>
can I get some help with my problems?
18:55
<vagrantc>
basically, there's a hook that checks for a newer nbd image... if that's got issues, you might se the problem you're having
18:55
<hydruid>
Leolo_3: ....you will be assimilated
18:56
<vagrantc>
Leolo_3: you did open with a fairly unanswerable question :p
18:56
<Leolo_3>
Details : CentOS 6 running KVM. LTSP server is KVM vm. Client is also running under KVM (for testing).
18:56
first off, LDM will randomly segfault when I type in a user name.
18:57
<hydruid>
Leolo_3: is this a new install or existing?
18:57
<ogra>
oh, centos
18:57
<Leolo_3>
ldm-2.2.11-4.el6.x86_64
18:57
hydruid - fresh install
18:57
<vagrantc>
enslaver did the redhat stuff, but haven't seem em lately
18:57
<hydruid>
Leolo_3: why not go to LTSP 5 then?
18:57
<Leolo_3>
is there a more recent version of ldm?
18:57
<ogra>
yeah, that was quite a while ago
18:58
<Leolo_3>
hydruid - why not? because everything worked and worked well in LTSP 4. I knew how to fix problems.
18:58
<hydruid>
Leolo_3: on CentOS 6 you're going to have all kinds of version conflicts with LTSP 4
18:58
<vagrantc>
2.2.11 is reasonably current
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18:59
<Leolo_3>
hydruid : maybe I missunderstand you, but my understanding was that LTSP 4 was a mini-distro. It ran on the client. It talked X to the server. What conflicts would I get (or do you mean the install scripts?)
18:59
I'll look into more recent LDM
18:59
<ogra>
ldm isnt your problem, like vagrantc said
18:59
<Leolo_3>
now, other problem - why do I get stuck in a "More recent version exists" loop?
18:59
<vagrantc>
it sounds more likely a configuration problem
19:00
<Leolo_3>
right, so how do I debug that?
19:00
<vagrantc>
it's trying to connect to nbd server, and finding a different image than what you're running
19:00
<Leolo_3>
(also, why is a config problem causing ldm to crash)
19:01
vagrantc : given that I haven't touched the image in 48 hours, I something else is the problem
19:01
<vagrantc>
Leolo_3: so it was working before?
19:01
<hydruid>
Leolo_3: a config problem is not causing LDM to crash
19:01
<Leolo_3>
and it's a loop - client boots, sees "new" image, reboots, sees "new" image, reboots, sees "new" image
19:02
<vagrantc>
Leolo_3: wel, it technically sees a different image
19:02
Leolo_3: which it assumes is newer
19:02
<Leolo_3>
ok
19:02
how do I fix that/
19:02
<vagrantc>
the different image may even being failure to connect
19:02
so, i'm not at all familiar with centos...
19:03
<ogra>
yeah, you theoretically need to talk to the distro implementer
19:03
who hasnt been around for quite a while
19:03
<vagrantc>
but basically, you need to figure out if your rootfs is nbd, nfs, aoe, or some other system
19:03
<Leolo_3>
in practice,that's not possible. why would nbd be saying "your image is different" ??
19:03
<ogra>
(which seems to be a common scheme for all fedora/rh/centos ports we have seen
19:03
)
19:04
<vagrantc>
Leolo_3: also, be a little less confrontational with people who are volunteering their time to help...
19:04
<ogra>
do an initial implementation and let it dangle til it falls apart
19:04
<hydruid>
Leolo_3: you'll have to dig deeper to find out ;)
19:04
<Leolo_3>
ogra - so CentOS is a "bastard" integration of LTSP?
19:05
<hydruid>
Leolo_3: LTSP 5 works fine on CentOS ;)
19:05
<Leolo_3>
actually, what's the advantage of nbd instead of nfs?
19:05
hydruid - my experience says otherwise
19:05
<ogra>
Leolo_3, no, idea i havent used any rpm based distro in a decade ... but the experience with people porting to one seems ot be that they do an initial port and then drop the ball
19:05
<vagrantc>
Leolo_3: look for /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/share/ldm/rc.d/I01-nbd-checkupdate
19:06
Leolo_3: though it might be /opt/ltsp/FOO
19:07
Leolo_3: but that's what's getting triggered, presumably wrongly
19:07
<Leolo_3>
gotcha
19:08
<hydruid>
ogra: do you use ubuntu or debian?
19:08
<ogra>
hydruid, ubuntu
19:09
<hydruid>
ogra: :P
19:09* vagrantc waves the debian flag
19:09
<hydruid>
lol
19:10
<Leolo_3>
glancing at nbd-checkupdate and it looks broken
19:10
it remounts the nbd image, compares to the currently mounted.
19:10
<vagrantc>
though, interestingly enough i did the first ltsp5 proof-of-concept port for fedora... figuring if a debian developer can get somethig half-baked working, maybe the rest of the community could step up
19:10
<Leolo_3>
but the currently mounted one can be changed during booting, no?
19:11
<vagrantc>
Leolo_3: it doesn't mount it
19:11
<hydruid>
Leolo_3: no
19:11
<Leolo_3>
right, mount is the wrong word
19:11
<vagrantc>
Leolo_3: it's a read-only image, or at least it should be
19:12* vagrantc doesn't even know if nbd is used on centos
19:12
<ogra>
hydruid, but i havent done anything with LTSP for several years (apart from drinking with the devs :) ) ... i did the initial implementation of LTSP 5 though ... nbd and ldm are my fault (though i wouldnt recognize any code of it today anymore)
19:13
<Leolo_3>
ogra - what is the advantage of nbd over nfs?
19:13
<ogra>
Leolo_3, back when i added it it got us a really fast boot
19:13
<Leolo_3>
vagrantc : nbd is there. It is commented out in favour of nfs. But I hate nfs so i thought "anything would be better"
19:13
<vagrantc>
Leolo_3: it assumes nbd0 is root... maybe that's nbd-swap in your setup?
19:14
<Leolo_3>
vagrantc - that makes sense! how would I list nbd? devices?
19:14
<vagrantc>
Leolo_3: so it works when you use NFS?
19:14
<Leolo_3>
haven't tried
19:14
<ogra>
Leolo_3, 3min vs 20-30sec back then with nbd vs nfs ... i dont think thats the case today anymore though ... nbd has the advantage that you can use comporessed images to save bandwith though
19:14
<vagrantc>
it worked before?
19:15
NBD is still a lot faster than NFS
19:15
nfs is a very talkative protocol
19:15
<Leolo_3>
in general, LTSP 4 was much faster then LTSP 5
19:15
<ogra>
and a pain to maintain
19:15
<vagrantc>
although loading an image file over NS seems to fix about 80-90% of the speed difference
19:16
<Leolo_3>
true
19:16
<vagrantc>
and ordeal to maintain
19:16
NFS image files are the best of both options, in my opinion
19:16
<Leolo_3>
in the client, I want to see where /dev/nbd0 and /dev/nbd1 are mounted. but mount isn't giving me anything useful
19:17
<vagrantc>
i think nbd-client can be used to display connection info
19:17
<Leolo_3>
wait, I don't have any swap, so that's a non-issue
19:18
<vagrantc>
oh, are you using port-base or name-based NBD?
19:18
<Leolo_3>
port-based
19:19
<vagrantc>
i've not messed with port-based stuff for at least a year or two...
19:19
<Leolo_3>
ok, nbd0 is going to port 2000. which is nbdrootd, serving up /opt/ltsp-5.4/images/i386.img
19:19
<vagrantc>
it might be trying to connect to a name-based export, hence the difference
19:19
<Leolo_3>
and that file is never. ever. changing
19:20
<vagrantc>
the shasum on a cnnectin refused will always be different
19:20
that's my current hunch
19:23
Leolo_3: i'd recommend switching to named exports...
19:26
<Leolo_3>
I'm running I01-nbd-checkupdate by hand on the client and it's not being refused
19:30
<vagrantc>
Leolo_3: the other thing is to simply disable that script
19:30
<Leolo_3>
true
19:31
<vagrantc>
probably doesn't have the environment variables set, so it'd just exit
19:31
<Leolo_3>
switching to name-based. how do I tell the client to use name not port?
19:32
<alkisg>
If you press cancel on that dialog, do you continue to the login prompt?
19:32
<vagrantc>
that is likely to be distro specific
19:32
<Leolo_3>
option root-path "nbd:10.104.0.3:2000:squashfs:ro";
19:32
I have to tweak that :-)
19:33
<vagrantc>
i have no idea how to tell dracut to se named exports
19:35
<Leolo_3>
I strongly suspect you can't
19:35
at least, not with the dracut that comes with CentOS 6
19:36
<vagrantc>
we need more active redhat/fedora maintainers :(
19:38
while it's not my personal preference, i think it's important for ltsp to be well supported on most major distros
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20:05
<Leolo_3>
here's a question : why develop nbd when tftpd does nearly the samething?
20:07
ok, root via NFS isn't noticably slower. I don't get the "new version" loop. But LDM is still crashing
20:07
sometimes crashing
20:19
a thought occurs to me - why even bother with LDM? I could set up XDM and I know that works well
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20:41
<vagrantc>
tftp and nbd are entirely different
20:42
ldm was implemented to support local devices, sound, local apps, remote apps, and probably some other features i'm not remembering
20:43
tftp downloads the entire file, nbd allows you do download individual blocks as needed, and access them as if they were a local device
20:44
Leolo_3: and ldm is sometimes working?
20:44
Leolo_3: what are the specs on the thin clients like?
20:45
<Leolo_3>
configure.ac:38: error: possibly undefined macro: AM_GLIB_GNU_GETTEXT
20:45
vagrantc - the "default" thin client is a Fit PC2
20:46
but there are many other things
20:48
<vagrantc>
Leolo_3: what sort of cpu and ram, mainly
20:48
Leolo_3: it's failin to build, or you're saying it spits out that error when running it?
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20:49
<Leolo_3>
Atom 1.6Ghz 1GB
20:50
<vagrantc>
ok, so it's probably not running out of ram...
20:52
<Leolo_3>
(but I'm not currently running on a Fit)
20:54
my test VM has 1GB also
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21:07
<Leolo_3>
it only seg faults some times. the segfault happens after I type in the username
21:07
(btw, on the fone talking about other projets is why nothing is moving)
21:21
(btw, on the fone talking about other projets is why nothing is moving)
21:21
oops
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