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hello all, having trouble with X on an thin client running ubuntu 14.04, I suspect it doesn't like all of the magical effects, any way to have a basic desktop?
I tried installing gnome3 which I want to use instead of unity but that didn't improve the situation much
in the old days I had to disable compiz and use metacity, I don't even know what the current ubuntu window manager's are...
we're still running ubuntu LTS 10.04
but trying to figure out 14.04 for a new rollout
so far I haven';t found any current info for LTSP on 14.04
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and you won't by leaving so quick
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@vagrantc whoops, I got bumped out, I'm using the web client,
I wouldn't run off that fast :->
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I really don't even know what the state of the LTSP art is these days, since we're running whatever was current back in ubuntu 10.04 days
so if anyone has a good pointer to get me back up to speed that would be appreciated
you could try with xbuntu or lubuntu ... they're likely lighter
@vagrantc I will try that. The thin clients are atom based with 2 Gig's of ram so I'd expect them to have the chutzpah
I notice that the DebianEdu project has a note about and lts.conf knob called DEFAULT_DISPLAY_MANAGER
no man page for lts.conf on Ubuntu, though, perhaps I need to add it via apt
hmm, I guess that option doesn't exist on the Ubuntu ver. of LTSP
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Having trouble staying on here for some reason
does Debian 7 run a different version of LTSP than Ubuntu 14.04?
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a somewhat different version
though DEFAULT_DISPLAY_MANAGER is undocumented for a reason... you really don't want to mess with that
mostly what's different is the versions of software
thanks, is the DebianEdu site the go to reference for LTSP on Debian?
i'm not sure, haven't looked at debian-edu in a while
they are one of the more sophisticated LTSP setups
Thank you, do you have a recomendation for good current documentation on configuring LTSP?
ok, must go, thanks for the help
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|00:47||* vagrantc wave|
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alkisg, hi, just completed one ltsp implementation, about 1000 fatclients in single location, any tips for such large setup? :)
Hi cyberorg, wow, I've never had such a large setup, but I would go for dmcache there
using ldap for authentication, nfsserver with ssd disk with 2 node drbd for /home
A bit of local storage, e.g. a 8 GB SSD disk or stick, and dmcache for automatic local caching
That should save 90% of the network bandwidth...
fatclient image is also on ssd
It would be extremely faster if it was on the clients
i've distributed 100 client per virtual server serving fatclient image
I.e. caching with dmcache
A single server should be enough then
each vm has its own giga lan
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It'd be very nice to add upstream support in ltsp for dmcache, it would benefit all setups, from 10 clients to 10.000...
don't think client will go for additional cost of ssds though
The clients don't have any DOM at all?
they have local hard disks, i could use those, but so far performance is quite good
Current disks are ~= 1 Gbps per client
you saw this? http://sourceforge.net/p/cyberorg-home/code/ci/master/tree/dm-cached-nbd/dm-cached-nbd.sh
So, for 100 clients, it's about 100 Gbps
You can't match that speed with any networking setup
For 1.000 clients, 1000 Gbps, etc
An 8 GB usb 3.0 stick for local storage is 4€, negligible...
(if you didn't have local disks)
So I think that local caching is very important and should be on by default, if local storage is detected
can you hack up support in ltsp based on that script ^^?
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Is the script tested + working?
Did you notice the improvements we're expecting?
what's all this talk of dmcache? dm-cache?
vagrantc: yup, or one of the other caching mechanisms
that script is just testing dm-cache setup with nbd/aoe, not tested with ltsp setup
just caching the images? filesystems?
hi vagrantc :)
ah, it's a device-mapper hack
vagrantc, dm-cache was created for using ssd as cache for slower disk, in our case network device
as alkisg said it would be nice thing to have, something for debconf? ;)
so it dynamically caches at the block device level?
And persists after reboots too
In an ideal implementation, a bitmap of the cached sectors would be on the client,
and how does it handle image updates?
and, after a few boots, it would be possible to boot the client even with the server powered off
We would handle image updates in the initramfs
If the nbd/aoe image is newer, we'd reset the cache
what a charming thing this dm-cache is!
thank you very much people!
never new of it
|05:38||* vagrantc has been busy testing support for a handful of arm devices with linux 3.15-rc4 all day...|
so then, in the initramfs phase, we'd actually mount the cache device as root?
MrV, you can use it on your regular desktop/laptop as well :)
backed by nbd/aoe?
cyberorg, yeah, I get it
vagrantc: no, it's like aufs, we'd mount the combination of nbd+local cache
vagrantc, see that script, we would switch root after last step there
well, i mean, it creates a virtual device that's composed of the other two devices, no?
so you'd mount the virtual device as root...
oh, Linux, you never stop surprising me! :)
We'd need the cow part too, on top of that virtual device
you could use another device for the cow.
how do you guys recommend distributing clients to different nbd servers? i've used pxe's files (gethostip) to direct clients to different servers
We're currently using swap space, wherever that is, it may as well be a local swap partition
swap for cow?
cow = tmpfs, which caches to swap when necessary
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About distributing nbd, I've never done it, but I would do it based on DNS round robin etc, so that if a server gets down, that would somehow update DNS, and the NBD client on reconnection would reconnect to another server
(not sure if nbd-client in the initramfs accepts dns though)
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alkisg, no, cyberorg was saying about different nbd-servers for different machines/networks
MrV: ah, I thought his 10 nbd-servers and 1000 clients are on the same network
Then why "distribute"?
Ah, to "send the nbd image"?
then maybe I was wrong :)
No he said "distributing clients"...
his solution with pxe files seems elegant to me...
1000 pxe files?
I'd use lua scripting in pxelinux instead of going there
but I don't quite get it how did he change pxe.NETWORK to make it boot from different nbd-server?
And do a `modulo 10` on the client mac address or ip...
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in my case - 7 networks, 7 pxe files
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Yup, or nbd-ip:/opt/ltsp/i386 in newer ltsp versions
Or plain nbd-ip if you're using the correct rootpath
OK. Thank you.
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work_alkisg: just for reference, recent LTSP uses the nbd-client nbdroot support, right?
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If you have 5 mins, I can list all the related issues we have about that... /me checks the code...
First: ./hooks/nbd:force_load nbd
I think it shouldn't be forced, it creates nbd nodes even when nbd isn't used for root, swap etc
I think the scripts that need the nbd module, should ensure it's loaded
(i.e. use manual_add_modules instead of force_load)
Second, we have a workaround for https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nbd/+bug/696435
|07:09||* vagrantc waves to wouter|
...I don't think it should be solved in nbd though, but since it affects all netbooted NBD-based installations, you might want to take a look in case you can help in solving it
Hmmm, I think that's all, we use the upstream nbd initramfs scripts for everything else
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|07:17||* wouter waves back|
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Καλήμερα σας. Μήπως υπάρχει τρόπος να κόβει ο 'Επόπτης' το internet απο τα τερματικά;
!greek | echo polbosn:
polbosn: greek: Στο παρόν κανάλι μιλάνε μόνο Αγγλικά, για υποστήριξη στα Ελληνικά από την υπηρεσία Τεχνικής Στήριξης ΣΕΠΕΗΥ διαβάστε το http://ts.sch.gr/wiki/IRC και στη συνέχεια πληκτρολογήστε /j #ts.sch.gr
polbosn: δες την παραπάνω ερώτηση ^
alkisg: just committed a fix for the force-load thing
alkisg: the wait-for-root issue seems to be a bug in wait-for-root, not in nbd
I'd recommend filing a bug there :-)
Sorry. Ok i will see your link. Thank you.
wouter: I filed it in the initramfs-tools
alkisg: ah, heh
missed that, then :-)
wouter: what fix did you commit? where? link?
I.e. in the nbd source code?
|07:23||* alkisg thinks it should be solved in initramfs, too...|
Not as a shell workaround, but in the wait-for-root.c code
Cool, thanks for that
note that as initramfs-tools is developed in Debian, it might make more sense to file the bug there, rather than in ubuntu?
unless this is an ubuntu-specific bug, of course...
I think I've done that... let me check...
vagrantc: do you think we should also request maks to implement a configure_networking hook for us, e.g. to post-process net-eth0.conf for ltsp-specific defaults, before e.g. nbd continues mounting its root etc?
Or is the hackish shell wrapper that I mentioned good enough?
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Hmm it looks like I didn't file a bug for initramfs-tools on debian... maybe it has hard for me to test on debian back then...
vagrantc, wouter, is it easy for you to test debian+nbd without my /usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts/local-top/nbd_ltsp hack?
alkisg: i don't seem to remember needing it
vagrantc: isn't packaged by default?
|07:36||* alkisg doesn't remember if it's included only in ubuntu...|
alkisg: i think it's packaged, but i haven't seen it trigger cause FSTYPE is always set.
Hmm how do you check that FSTYPE is always set?
If it's triggered, then it writes param.conf, so FSTYPE is set after that
(for all following scripts)
well, it worked fine without your hook.
Cool. So it's ubuntu-specific...
alkisg: i'm speaking from memory, haven't tried
recenty at all
It would work, but delay 30 secs
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|07:45||* alkisg checks https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/initramfs-tools/+bug/576429 which sounds very similar...|
alkisg: I didn't see the 30-second delay in my tests back when I originally wrote the initramfs support, but then I never really tested plain-device booting, always used partitions
wouter: ah, you don't use squashfs?
(btw, the "no partition table found" nbd message does confuse quite a few users of ltsp...)
alkisg: no, just ext4 or some such
alkisg: nothing I can do about the partition table thing. You'd get the same thing if you tried installing something to /dev/sda rather than /dev/sda1
Isn't that message generated by nbd-client?
no, the kernel
why would nbd-client care what's on the device? It does a handshake with the server, and once that's done it just passes a socket to the kernel
Hmm I didn't see that in usb sticks that use the whole /dev/sdb as ext4... ok
|07:53||* alkisg doesn't know what parts of nbd are userspace and what in the kernel... haven't read the nbd code|
that might be because someone special-cased USB sticks? dunno
alkisg: negotiation is done in userspace. Everything else is done in the kernel.
if you were to generate partitioned NBD devices, you'd get rid of the message
but that might be a bit heavy-handed
Unfortunately mksquashfs doesn't support that
you could dd it into an image... but like I said "heavy-handed"
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I'm not suggesting you do it, just pointing out the obvious workaround
Yeah, some fat client images are 5+ GB, hard to copy around...
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nbd-client: To try mounting the NBD image from the client initramfs: nbd-client 192.168.67.1 -N /opt/ltsp/i386 /dev/nbd0
|08:09||* alkisg notes that wait-for-root isn't available in wheezy, so vagrantc wouldn't have seen the issue there|
I think the problem is that this udev attribute is missing for nbd and sr in initramfs: E: ID_FS_TYPE=iso9660
For nbd it's also missing in the booted system
So this issue probably needs to be solved in the udev rules
root@ltsp159:/run# udevadm info --query=all /dev/nbd0 | grep FS_TYPE
root@ltsp159:/run# udevadm info --query=all /dev/sr0 | grep FS_TYPE
root@ltsp159:/run# /usr/lib/initramfs-tools/bin/wait-for-root /dev/nbd0 1 && echo yes
root@ltsp159:/run# /usr/lib/initramfs-tools/bin/wait-for-root /dev/sr0 1 && echo yes
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I think it's nbd-specific after all
So, the solution should go in nbd, either properly in the kernel module, or as a shell workaround in the initramfs
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If not, then we should file it in initramfs-tools in Debian, so that they try to special-case nbd in wait-for-root.c...
does debian use wait-for-root ?
I'm not sure, I'm guessing it should be there in jessie
It's not there in wheezy
it definitely comes from ubuntu ... not sure debian ever adopted it
(but so does initramfs-tools ... and nowadays ubuntu is always behind on that one :P )
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mm, is there a way for me to tell udev "inspect this device again, stuff has changed" from userspace?
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ogra_: I meant by using some sort of syscall
calling system() from nbd-client is probably a bad idea :-)
ah well, I suppose I'll have to prod Paul, then
oh, that i dont knwo :)
wouter: I bet the source of udevadmin is available for review...
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||cw: fair point
but I suspect the interfaces aren't public
hi, good morning. I am using ltsp with 22 pc.. but some user when they go to internet the system send them to the loggin screen, why?
thanks in advance
servercbe: running out of ram?
i am using 16GB
only 5 gb using
if you login as that user locally on the server's gui console, doe sit do the same thing?
i dont know... i will do it now.. i will come back soon.. wait please
Hi, I came back... I works fine if I access to the internet localy on the server}
should I erase this account and redo it?
i don't even know where to start on that one then
neigther do I.
I don't know if account delete would do anything, or if it could a client hardware issue, or what
though I guess it can't hurt too much to recreate the account
alkisg and vagrantc have a lot more experience, so ask again if you haven't figured it out when they come back
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Anyone have an idea why nbd_server starts with system startup and gives me the error: Could not open exported file /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img: Permission denied. When I then restart the service, all works correctly
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that's a new one
is it on a separate partition and mounted after startup tries to start nbd-server?
No, just one partition I think. Let me make sure.
what are the permissions on /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img ?
Yes, just one partition.
is it running as a different user during startup than when you restart the service?
-rw-r----- 1 root root 332587008 Mar 18 08:55 /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img
I restart using sudo, so I would say it's root both times
Is it possible to let nbd_server do more verbose logging maybe?
on my debian system, nbd-server is running as user "nbd"
your permissions on i386.img seem too restrictive
are you trying to hide something in there?
(and then exporting it over the network anyways?)
sudo chmod +r /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img
then i bet it'll work correctly
No particular reason it has those permissions that I can recall
nbd_server runs as user "nbd" on my side too
maybe you have a very unusual umask?
Actually I do, now that I think about it.
well, make it world-readable, and then it should work.
ok, will do
although having a umask that restrictive will break lots of things...
I was "forced" by a policy to ensure that all new files are not readable my anyone except the user that created it (for security reasons)
Put of course this should really apply to user's home directories, not system directories
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I see /opt has 0007 umask...
so any random user can rewrite all of /opt ... nice :P
no, 007 is the umask, not the file permissionss
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umask is the default file permissions on created files... so i don't get what you mean, then.
files do not have a umask...
or maybe i misunderstand the term...
I se the system default umask to 007 instead of 022 in the user's .profile
so /opt has some file permissions resulting from a 007 umask.
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Yes, which means for sure "others" can't read or list the file, but owner and group can if the program that creates the file sets the permissions to allow that.
I have no set the the permissions for i386.img to 0755 and will restart the server now and see if the problem is resolved.
I hove now set...
you might also need to adjust the permissions of /opt, /opt/ltsp and /opt/ltsp/images as well
also, if you created the chroot with these permissions, the image might have bunk permissions as well
so i'd "mount /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img /mnt" and make sure the permissions look sane
lifeboy: sounds likely you'll need to set up some exceptions for your policy...
I can exclude "root" from the policy, so only the actual user's new files will have the restrictive umask
After the restart, nbd_server is fine now and I didn't have to manually restart it. I'll work on the umask for root, so a future build of i386.img will not have this problem again.
glad to hear it's working
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|22:40||* vagrantc wonders if it would make sense to support drbd as a root device|
then you could actually have multiple servers, and reboot one of them without taking the clients down
hi, I have a problem I install ltsp, and cant login has a user
I create users in the machine
I testing on raspberry and works, but
a pc booting from the net
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ldm ask the user and password, and tellme unable to run /usr/bin/startlxde
lxde are installed on the real machine
but not on the chroot, can help me
if you've configured them as thin clients, lxde would be installed on the server
if you've configured them as fat clients, you'd install lxde in the chroot ...
calisto: what exactly says it's "unable to run /usr/bin/startlxde"?
vagrantc: I have a amdPC booting from the net and a raspberry pi booting from SD
the amdPC is a thin client?
vagrantc: startlxde is the message tellme ldm when I try to login
i've never seen LDM report something like that ... maybe something in Xsession.d hooks
calisto: could you select a different session at login?
only can loguin as xterm session
but it works?
does the xterm say "user@SERVER" or "user@ltspXXX" ?
looks like it's configured as a fat client
you'll either need to set LTSP_FATCLIENT=false or install LXDE into the chroot
ok vagrantc, but where set LTSP_FATCLIENT=false?
!lts.conf | echo calisto
calisto lts.conf: http://manpages.ubuntu.com/lts.conf
calisto: what distro?
then you should be able to add it directly to /opt/ltsp/*/etc/lts.conf
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unless you're using NBD, then you'll want to edit /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/*/lts.conf or /srv/tftp/ltsp/*/lts.conf
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yes....... works 8-)
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