IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 7 May 2014   (all times are UTC)

00:02john_s has joined IRC (john_s!a8d4f382@gateway/web/freenode/ip.168.212.243.130)
00:04
<john_s>
hello all, having trouble with X on an thin client running ubuntu 14.04, I suspect it doesn't like all of the magical effects, any way to have a basic desktop?
00:04
I tried installing gnome3 which I want to use instead of unity but that didn't improve the situation much
00:05
in the old days I had to disable compiz and use metacity, I don't even know what the current ubuntu window manager's are...
00:05
we're still running ubuntu LTS 10.04
00:06
but trying to figure out 14.04 for a new rollout
00:08
so far I haven';t found any current info for LTSP on 14.04
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00:14
<vagrantc>
and you won't by leaving so quick
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00:18
<john_s>
@vagrantc whoops, I got bumped out, I'm using the web client,
00:18
I wouldn't run off that fast :->
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00:20
<john_s>
I really don't even know what the state of the LTSP art is these days, since we're running whatever was current back in ubuntu 10.04 days
00:21
so if anyone has a good pointer to get me back up to speed that would be appreciated
00:24
<vagrantc>
you could try with xbuntu or lubuntu ... they're likely lighter
00:25
<john_s>
@vagrantc I will try that. The thin clients are atom based with 2 Gig's of ram so I'd expect them to have the chutzpah
00:26
I notice that the DebianEdu project has a note about and lts.conf knob called DEFAULT_DISPLAY_MANAGER
00:27
no man page for lts.conf on Ubuntu, though, perhaps I need to add it via apt
00:28
got it
00:30
hmm, I guess that option doesn't exist on the Ubuntu ver. of LTSP
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00:32
<john_s_>
Having trouble staying on here for some reason
00:33
does Debian 7 run a different version of LTSP than Ubuntu 14.04?
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00:35
<vagrantc>
a somewhat different version
00:35
though DEFAULT_DISPLAY_MANAGER is undocumented for a reason... you really don't want to mess with that
00:36
mostly what's different is the versions of software
00:37
<john_s_>
thanks, is the DebianEdu site the go to reference for LTSP on Debian?
00:38
<vagrantc>
i'm not sure, haven't looked at debian-edu in a while
00:38
they are one of the more sophisticated LTSP setups
00:40
<john_s_>
Thank you, do you have a recomendation for good current documentation on configuring LTSP?
00:46
ok, must go, thanks for the help
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00:47* vagrantc wave
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05:05work_alkisg is now known as alkisg
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05:21
<cyberorg>
alkisg, hi, just completed one ltsp implementation, about 1000 fatclients in single location, any tips for such large setup? :)
05:22
<alkisg>
Hi cyberorg, wow, I've never had such a large setup, but I would go for dmcache there
05:22
<cyberorg>
using ldap for authentication, nfsserver with ssd disk with 2 node drbd for /home
05:22
<alkisg>
A bit of local storage, e.g. a 8 GB SSD disk or stick, and dmcache for automatic local caching
05:23
That should save 90% of the network bandwidth...
05:23
<cyberorg>
fatclient image is also on ssd
05:23
<alkisg>
It would be extremely faster if it was on the clients
05:23
<cyberorg>
i've distributed 100 client per virtual server serving fatclient image
05:23
<alkisg>
I.e. caching with dmcache
05:24
A single server should be enough then
05:24
<cyberorg>
each vm has its own giga lan
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05:25
<alkisg>
It'd be very nice to add upstream support in ltsp for dmcache, it would benefit all setups, from 10 clients to 10.000...
05:25
<cyberorg>
don't think client will go for additional cost of ssds though
05:25
<alkisg>
The clients don't have any DOM at all?
05:26
<cyberorg>
they have local hard disks, i could use those, but so far performance is quite good
05:27
<alkisg>
Current disks are ~= 1 Gbps per client
05:27
<cyberorg>
you saw this? http://sourceforge.net/p/cyberorg-home/code/ci/master/tree/dm-cached-nbd/dm-cached-nbd.sh
05:27
<alkisg>
So, for 100 clients, it's about 100 Gbps
05:27
You can't match that speed with any networking setup
05:27
For 1.000 clients, 1000 Gbps, etc
05:28
An 8 GB usb 3.0 stick for local storage is 4€, negligible...
05:29
(if you didn't have local disks)
05:29
So I think that local caching is very important and should be on by default, if local storage is detected
05:31
<cyberorg>
can you hack up support in ltsp based on that script ^^?
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05:31
<alkisg>
Is the script tested + working?
05:32
Did you notice the improvements we're expecting?
05:32
<vagrantc>
what's all this talk of dmcache? dm-cache?
05:32
<alkisg>
vagrantc: yup, or one of the other caching mechanisms
05:32
<cyberorg>
that script is just testing dm-cache setup with nbd/aoe, not tested with ltsp setup
05:32
<vagrantc>
just caching the images? filesystems?
05:33
<cyberorg>
hi vagrantc :)
05:33
<alkisg>
Caching i386.img
05:33
<vagrantc>
ah, it's a device-mapper hack
05:34
<cyberorg>
vagrantc, dm-cache was created for using ssd as cache for slower disk, in our case network device
05:34
<vagrantc>
right
05:35
<cyberorg>
as alkisg said it would be nice thing to have, something for debconf? ;)
05:35
<vagrantc>
so it dynamically caches at the block device level?
05:35
<alkisg>
Yup
05:35
And persists after reboots too
05:36
In an ideal implementation, a bitmap of the cached sectors would be on the client,
05:36
<vagrantc>
and how does it handle image updates?
05:36
<alkisg>
and, after a few boots, it would be possible to boot the client even with the server powered off
05:36
We would handle image updates in the initramfs
05:36
If the nbd/aoe image is newer, we'd reset the cache
05:37
<MrV>
what a charming thing this dm-cache is!
05:37
thank you very much people!
05:37
never new of it
05:38
Knew*
05:38* vagrantc has been busy testing support for a handful of arm devices with linux 3.15-rc4 all day...
05:38
<vagrantc>
so then, in the initramfs phase, we'd actually mount the cache device as root?
05:38
<cyberorg>
MrV, you can use it on your regular desktop/laptop as well :)
05:39
<vagrantc>
backed by nbd/aoe?
05:39
<MrV>
cyberorg, yeah, I get it
05:39
<alkisg>
vagrantc: no, it's like aufs, we'd mount the combination of nbd+local cache
05:40
<vagrantc>
ok.
05:40
<cyberorg>
vagrantc, see that script, we would switch root after last step there
05:40
<vagrantc>
well, i mean, it creates a virtual device that's composed of the other two devices, no?
05:40
<alkisg>
Yes
05:41
<vagrantc>
so you'd mount the virtual device as root...
05:41
<MrV>
oh, Linux, you never stop surprising me! :)
05:41
<alkisg>
We'd need the cow part too, on top of that virtual device
05:43
<vagrantc>
ah, right.
05:44
you could use another device for the cow.
05:44
<cyberorg>
how do you guys recommend distributing clients to different nbd servers? i've used pxe's files (gethostip) to direct clients to different servers
05:45
<alkisg>
We're currently using swap space, wherever that is, it may as well be a local swap partition
05:45
<cyberorg>
swap for cow?
05:46
<alkisg>
cow = tmpfs, which caches to swap when necessary
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05:49
<alkisg>
About distributing nbd, I've never done it, but I would do it based on DNS round robin etc, so that if a server gets down, that would somehow update DNS, and the NBD client on reconnection would reconnect to another server
05:50
(not sure if nbd-client in the initramfs accepts dns though)
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06:00
<MrV>
alkisg, no, cyberorg was saying about different nbd-servers for different machines/networks
06:00
<alkisg>
MrV: ah, I thought his 10 nbd-servers and 1000 clients are on the same network
06:01
Then why "distribute"?
06:01
Ah, to "send the nbd image"?
06:01
<MrV>
then maybe I was wrong :)
06:01
<alkisg>
No he said "distributing clients"...
06:01
OK
06:01
<MrV>
his solution with pxe files seems elegant to me...
06:02
<alkisg>
1000 pxe files?
06:02
I'd use lua scripting in pxelinux instead of going there
06:02
<MrV>
but I don't quite get it how did he change pxe.NETWORK to make it boot from different nbd-server?
06:02
<alkisg>
And do a `modulo 10` on the client mac address or ip...
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06:03
<MrV>
in my case - 7 networks, 7 pxe files
06:03
<alkisg>
nbdroot=xxx
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06:08
<MrV>
nbdroot=NBDSERVER_IP:ltsp_i386
06:08
?
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06:19
<alkisg>
Yup, or nbd-ip:/opt/ltsp/i386 in newer ltsp versions
06:19
Or plain nbd-ip if you're using the correct rootpath
06:20
<MrV>
OK. Thank you.
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06:50
<wouter>
work_alkisg: just for reference, recent LTSP uses the nbd-client nbdroot support, right?
07:04work_alkisg is now known as alkisg
07:05
<alkisg>
Hi wouter
07:06
If you have 5 mins, I can list all the related issues we have about that... /me checks the code...
07:06
First: ./hooks/nbd:force_load nbd
07:06
I think it shouldn't be forced, it creates nbd nodes even when nbd isn't used for root, swap etc
07:07
I think the scripts that need the nbd module, should ensure it's loaded
07:08
(i.e. use manual_add_modules instead of force_load)
07:08
Second, we have a workaround for https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nbd/+bug/696435
07:09* vagrantc waves to wouter
07:09
<alkisg>
...I don't think it should be solved in nbd though, but since it affects all netbooted NBD-based installations, you might want to take a look in case you can help in solving it
07:10
Hmmm, I think that's all, we use the upstream nbd initramfs scripts for everything else
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07:17* wouter waves back
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07:19
<polbosn>
Καλήμερα σας. Μήπως υπάρχει τρόπος να κόβει ο 'Επόπτης' το internet απο τα τερματικά;
07:20
<alkisg>
!greek | echo polbosn:
07:20
<ltsp>
polbosn: greek: Στο παρόν κανάλι μιλάνε μόνο Αγγλικά, για υποστήριξη στα Ελληνικά από την υπηρεσία Τεχνικής Στήριξης ΣΕΠΕΗΥ διαβάστε το http://ts.sch.gr/wiki/IRC και στη συνέχεια πληκτρολογήστε /j #ts.sch.gr
07:21
<alkisg>
https://answers.launchpad.net/epoptes/+question/247725
07:21
polbosn: δες την παραπάνω ερώτηση ^
07:22
<wouter>
alkisg: just committed a fix for the force-load thing
07:22
alkisg: the wait-for-root issue seems to be a bug in wait-for-root, not in nbd
07:22
I'd recommend filing a bug there :-)
07:22
<polbosn>
Sorry. Ok i will see your link. Thank you.
07:22
<alkisg>
wouter: I filed it in the initramfs-tools
07:22
<wouter>
alkisg: ah, heh
07:22
missed that, then :-)
07:23
<alkisg>
wouter: what fix did you commit? where? link?
07:23
I.e. in the nbd source code?
07:23* alkisg thinks it should be solved in initramfs, too...
07:23
<wouter>
http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=users/wouter/nbd.git;a=commit;h=60c765cb12c64d0ed666688a6862c3cf80a9a296
07:23
<alkisg>
Not as a shell workaround, but in the wait-for-root.c code
07:24
Cool, thanks for that
07:24
<wouter>
yes, indeed
07:24
note that as initramfs-tools is developed in Debian, it might make more sense to file the bug there, rather than in ubuntu?
07:24
unless this is an ubuntu-specific bug, of course...
07:24
<alkisg>
I think I've done that... let me check...
07:28
vagrantc: do you think we should also request maks to implement a configure_networking hook for us, e.g. to post-process net-eth0.conf for ltsp-specific defaults, before e.g. nbd continues mounting its root etc?
07:28
Or is the hackish shell wrapper that I mentioned good enough?
07:29
(ipconfig wrapper)
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07:30
<alkisg>
Hmm it looks like I didn't file a bug for initramfs-tools on debian... maybe it has hard for me to test on debian back then...
07:34
vagrantc, wouter, is it easy for you to test debian+nbd without my /usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts/local-top/nbd_ltsp hack?
07:35
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i don't seem to remember needing it
07:35
<alkisg>
vagrantc: isn't packaged by default?
07:36* alkisg doesn't remember if it's included only in ubuntu...
07:36
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i think it's packaged, but i haven't seen it trigger cause FSTYPE is always set.
07:37
<alkisg>
Hmm how do you check that FSTYPE is always set?
07:37
If it's triggered, then it writes param.conf, so FSTYPE is set after that
07:37
(for all following scripts)
07:37
<vagrantc>
well, it worked fine without your hook.
07:37
<alkisg>
Cool. So it's ubuntu-specific...
07:37
<vagrantc>
maybe
07:38
alkisg: i'm speaking from memory, haven't tried
07:38
recenty at all
07:38
<alkisg>
It would work, but delay 30 secs
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07:45* alkisg checks https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/initramfs-tools/+bug/576429 which sounds very similar...
07:49
<wouter>
alkisg: I didn't see the 30-second delay in my tests back when I originally wrote the initramfs support, but then I never really tested plain-device booting, always used partitions
07:49
<alkisg>
wouter: ah, you don't use squashfs?
07:50
(btw, the "no partition table found" nbd message does confuse quite a few users of ltsp...)
07:51
<wouter>
alkisg: no, just ext4 or some such
07:51
alkisg: nothing I can do about the partition table thing. You'd get the same thing if you tried installing something to /dev/sda rather than /dev/sda1
07:52
<alkisg>
Isn't that message generated by nbd-client?
07:52
<wouter>
no, the kernel
07:52
why would nbd-client care what's on the device? It does a handshake with the server, and once that's done it just passes a socket to the kernel
07:52
<alkisg>
Hmm I didn't see that in usb sticks that use the whole /dev/sdb as ext4... ok
07:53* alkisg doesn't know what parts of nbd are userspace and what in the kernel... haven't read the nbd code
07:53
<wouter>
that might be because someone special-cased USB sticks? dunno
07:53
alkisg: negotiation is done in userspace. Everything else is done in the kernel.
07:54
if you were to generate partitioned NBD devices, you'd get rid of the message
07:54
but that might be a bit heavy-handed
07:54
<alkisg>
Unfortunately mksquashfs doesn't support that
07:55
<wouter>
you could dd it into an image... but like I said "heavy-handed"
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07:55
<wouter>
I'm not suggesting you do it, just pointing out the obvious workaround
07:55
<alkisg>
Yeah, some fat client images are 5+ GB, hard to copy around...
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08:07
<alkisg>
!nbd-client
08:07
<ltsp>
nbd-client: To try mounting the NBD image from the client initramfs: nbd-client 192.168.67.1 -N /opt/ltsp/i386 /dev/nbd0
08:09* alkisg notes that wait-for-root isn't available in wheezy, so vagrantc wouldn't have seen the issue there
08:13
<alkisg>
I think the problem is that this udev attribute is missing for nbd and sr in initramfs: E: ID_FS_TYPE=iso9660
08:13
For nbd it's also missing in the booted system
08:13
So this issue probably needs to be solved in the udev rules
08:14
root@ltsp159:/run# udevadm info --query=all /dev/nbd0 | grep FS_TYPE
08:14
root@ltsp159:/run# udevadm info --query=all /dev/sr0 | grep FS_TYPE
08:14
E: ID_FS_TYPE=iso9660
08:14
root@ltsp159:/run# /usr/lib/initramfs-tools/bin/wait-for-root /dev/nbd0 1 && echo yes
08:14
root@ltsp159:/run# /usr/lib/initramfs-tools/bin/wait-for-root /dev/sr0 1 && echo yes
08:14
iso9660
08:14
yes
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11:59
<alkisg>
wouter: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=62565
11:59
I think it's nbd-specific after all
12:00
So, the solution should go in nbd, either properly in the kernel module, or as a shell workaround in the initramfs
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12:13
<alkisg>
If not, then we should file it in initramfs-tools in Debian, so that they try to special-case nbd in wait-for-root.c...
12:15
<ogra_>
does debian use wait-for-root ?
12:16
<alkisg>
I'm not sure, I'm guessing it should be there in jessie
12:16
It's not there in wheezy
12:17
<ogra_>
it definitely comes from ubuntu ... not sure debian ever adopted it
12:17
(but so does initramfs-tools ... and nowadays ubuntu is always behind on that one :P )
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12:44alkisg is now known as work_alkisg
12:47
<wouter>
mm, is there a way for me to tell udev "inspect this device again, stuff has changed" from userspace?
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13:00
<ogra_>
udevadmin trigger
13:00
iirc
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13:55
<wouter>
ogra_: I meant by using some sort of syscall
13:55
calling system() from nbd-client is probably a bad idea :-)
13:55
ah well, I suppose I'll have to prod Paul, then
13:56
<ogra_>
oh, that i dont knwo :)
14:04
<||cw>
wouter: I bet the source of udevadmin is available for review...
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14:43
<wouter>
||cw: fair point
14:43
but I suspect the interfaces aren't public
14:43
<servercbe>
hi, good morning. I am using ltsp with 22 pc.. but some user when they go to internet the system send them to the loggin screen, why?
14:43
thanks in advance
14:44
<||cw>
servercbe: running out of ram?
14:44
<servercbe>
i am using 16GB
14:44
only 5 gb using
14:45
right now
14:45
<||cw>
if you login as that user locally on the server's gui console, doe sit do the same thing?
14:48
<servercbe>
i dont know... i will do it now.. i will come back soon.. wait please
14:59
Hi, I came back... I works fine if I access to the internet localy on the server}
15:01
should I erase this account and redo it?
15:01
<||cw>
i don't even know where to start on that one then
15:02
<servercbe>
neigther do I.
15:02
<||cw>
I don't know if account delete would do anything, or if it could a client hardware issue, or what
15:03
though I guess it can't hurt too much to recreate the account
15:03
alkisg and vagrantc have a lot more experience, so ask again if you haven't figured it out when they come back
15:04
<servercbe>
thanks!
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17:38
<lifeboy>
'evenin all
17:39
<vagrantc>
mornin'
17:39
<lifeboy>
Anyone have an idea why nbd_server starts with system startup and gives me the error: Could not open exported file /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img: Permission denied. When I then restart the service, all works correctly
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17:40
<vagrantc>
that's a new one
17:41
is it on a separate partition and mounted after startup tries to start nbd-server?
17:41
er, before
17:41
<lifeboy>
No, just one partition I think. Let me make sure.
17:41
<vagrantc>
what are the permissions on /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img ?
17:42
<lifeboy>
Yes, just one partition.
17:42
<vagrantc>
is it running as a different user during startup than when you restart the service?
17:43
<lifeboy>
-rw-r----- 1 root root 332587008 Mar 18 08:55 /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img
17:43
I restart using sudo, so I would say it's root both times
17:44
Is it possible to let nbd_server do more verbose logging maybe?
17:45
<vagrantc>
on my debian system, nbd-server is running as user "nbd"
17:45
<lifeboy>
hmmm
17:46
<vagrantc>
your permissions on i386.img seem too restrictive
17:46
are you trying to hide something in there?
17:46
(and then exporting it over the network anyways?)
17:46
sudo chmod +r /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img
17:46
then i bet it'll work correctly
17:47
<lifeboy>
No particular reason it has those permissions that I can recall
17:47
nbd_server runs as user "nbd" on my side too
17:47
<vagrantc>
maybe you have a very unusual umask?
17:47
<lifeboy>
Actually I do, now that I think about it.
17:48
<vagrantc>
well, make it world-readable, and then it should work.
17:48
<lifeboy>
ok, will do
17:48
<vagrantc>
although having a umask that restrictive will break lots of things...
17:49
<lifeboy>
I was "forced" by a policy to ensure that all new files are not readable my anyone except the user that created it (for security reasons)
17:50
Put of course this should really apply to user's home directories, not system directories
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17:50
<lifeboy>
s/Put/But/
17:51
I see /opt has 0007 umask...
17:52
<vagrantc>
eeyk.
17:52
so any random user can rewrite all of /opt ... nice :P
17:55
<lifeboy>
no, 007 is the umask, not the file permissionss
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18:03
<vagrantc>
umask is the default file permissions on created files... so i don't get what you mean, then.
18:03
files do not have a umask...
18:04
or maybe i misunderstand the term...
18:05
<lifeboy>
I se the system default umask to 007 instead of 022 in the user's .profile
18:05
I set...
18:14
<vagrantc>
so /opt has some file permissions resulting from a 007 umask.
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18:34
<lifeboy>
Yes, which means for sure "others" can't read or list the file, but owner and group can if the program that creates the file sets the permissions to allow that.
18:34
I have no set the the permissions for i386.img to 0755 and will restart the server now and see if the problem is resolved.
18:35
I hove now set...
18:39
<vagrantc>
you might also need to adjust the permissions of /opt, /opt/ltsp and /opt/ltsp/images as well
18:40
also, if you created the chroot with these permissions, the image might have bunk permissions as well
18:41
so i'd "mount /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img /mnt" and make sure the permissions look sane
18:41
lifeboy: sounds likely you'll need to set up some exceptions for your policy...
19:22
<lifeboy>
I can exclude "root" from the policy, so only the actual user's new files will have the restrictive umask
19:26
After the restart, nbd_server is fine now and I didn't have to manually restart it. I'll work on the umask for root, so a future build of i386.img will not have this problem again.
19:26
Thanks, vagrantc!
19:27
<vagrantc>
glad to hear it's working
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22:40* vagrantc wonders if it would make sense to support drbd as a root device
22:40
<vagrantc>
then you could actually have multiple servers, and reboot one of them without taking the clients down
22:41
<calisto>
hi, I have a problem I install ltsp, and cant login has a user
22:41
I create users in the machine
22:42
I testing on raspberry and works, but
22:42
a pc booting from the net
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22:43
<calisto>
ldm ask the user and password, and tellme unable to run /usr/bin/startlxde
22:43
lxde are installed on the real machine
22:44
but not on the chroot, can help me
22:45
<vagrantc>
if you've configured them as thin clients, lxde would be installed on the server
22:45
if you've configured them as fat clients, you'd install lxde in the chroot ...
22:47
calisto: what exactly says it's "unable to run /usr/bin/startlxde"?
22:47
<calisto>
vagrantc: I have a amdPC booting from the net and a raspberry pi booting from SD
22:48
the amdPC is a thin client?
22:49
vagrantc: startlxde is the message tellme ldm when I try to login
22:50
<vagrantc>
i've never seen LDM report something like that ... maybe something in Xsession.d hooks
22:50
calisto: could you select a different session at login?
22:51
<calisto>
only can loguin as xterm session
22:51
<vagrantc>
but it works?
22:51
<calisto>
yes
22:52
<vagrantc>
does the xterm say "user@SERVER" or "user@ltspXXX" ?
22:53
<calisto>
second option
22:53
user@ltsp83
22:53
<vagrantc>
looks like it's configured as a fat client
22:54
you'll either need to set LTSP_FATCLIENT=false or install LXDE into the chroot
22:55
<calisto>
ok vagrantc, but where set LTSP_FATCLIENT=false?
22:55
<vagrantc>
!lts.conf | echo calisto
22:55
<ltsp>
calisto lts.conf: http://manpages.ubuntu.com/lts.conf
22:55
<vagrantc>
calisto: what distro?
22:56
<calisto>
debian
22:57
<vagrantc>
then you should be able to add it directly to /opt/ltsp/*/etc/lts.conf
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22:58
<vagrantc>
unless you're using NBD, then you'll want to edit /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/*/lts.conf or /srv/tftp/ltsp/*/lts.conf
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23:02
<calisto>
yes....... works 8-)
23:04
thanks vagrantc
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