IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 1 February 2009   (all times are UTC)

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06:04
<markit>
anyone experienced in providing local sound and usb access through rdesktop? remote rdp being a XP machine
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10:51
<vagrantc>
the nomad patch passes a password on the commandline?
10:51
cyberorg: ??
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11:28
<johnny>
sbalneav, hey?
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12:17
<vagrantc>
hm. for some reason, nb_NO didn't get added to ldm's language list...
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12:38
<warren>
vagrantc: probably because it causes the python function to crash
12:39
<johnny>
vagrantc, hello
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12:42
<vagrantc>
warren: yes, indeed.
12:43
but only if piped or redirected ... just worked around that issue by ignoring the locales it affects...
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14:24
<warren>
ogra: your Ubuntu mobile with SSD, do you disable swap since it is bad for the disk?
14:24
ogra: (compcache yes, disk swap no?)
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14:52
<vagrantc>
warren, stgraber, johnny: i'm planning on tagging ltsp-trunk shortly... any things you'd like in first?
14:52* warren looks at it
14:53
<vagrantc>
i tested the XDG_DATA_DIRS changes, which are working well for me.
14:58
<johnny>
vagrantc, not quite.. hopefully soon
14:58
i'm just gonna put the damn tarballs on my site i guess :(
15:01
<stgraber>
vagrantc: should be good, I wondered why you had to append /usr/share to the XDG_DATA_DIRS though
15:06
<vagrantc>
stgraber: reading the spec, it wasn't clear they would be used if missing.
15:06
stgraber: i could easily test without it, and see if it breaks...
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15:20
<vagrantc>
stgraber: definitely needed /usr/local/share:/usr/share in XDG_DATA_DIRS ... seems if XDG_DATA_DIRS is set, it doesn't look in those places by default.
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15:26
<TheProf>
Hello. I hope everyone is well. I'm sort of at my wit's end with printing and this is a show-stopper for me. I'd even consider paying to get it to just work, except that payment would never be approved since a key argument for using LTSP was cost-saving.
15:26
I've resolved the issue with the unsupported HP printer but I have another printer that needs to hang off a thin client but it won't work.
15:27
This one is fully supported both according to the openprinting database and it is also support by HPLIP
15:28
it also works as either a USB printer or a parallel one. The office it is suppose to go into has only 1 network drop so I need it to run off a thin client.
15:30
<stgraber>
vagrantc: hmm, ok. Then just go ahead and tag, I'll package and test it tomorrow (I hope, it'll likely be a very busy day)
15:31
<TheProf>
At this point I have NO IDEA what to do, and after spending like 5 days on this I am totally ready to throw in the towel, which will mean that the entire project gets scrapped after several years of LTSP, something I don't want obviously.
15:38
The Printer is an HP deskjet 940c for the VP's office. It's listed here as perfectly working http://www.linuxprinting.org/show_printer.cgi?recnum=HP-DeskJet_940C and here http://hplipopensource.com/hplip-web/models/deskjet/deskjet_940c.html as working with hplip
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15:41
<stgraber>
TheProf: you should wait for Gadi to show up he may be able to help you
15:42
<TheProf>
stgraber, OK. It is so strange that nothing works.
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15:44
<stgraber>
TheProf: yeah ... to help debuging it, you may want to check if jetpipe is running on the thin client and if so, that it answers correctly on its port (9100)
15:45
so at least we know if it's jetpipe, the cups server or something else that's failing
15:45
<TheProf>
stgraber, I will check that now thank you
15:45
<stgraber>
more information about your distribution and your version of ltsp may help too so that we know if it's a bug that was then fixed upstream in jetpipe
15:46
I unfortunately have to go now but having these information around will help you save time debugging it when gadi comes back
15:50
<TheProf>
stgraber, the distro is CentOS 5
15:58
<vagrantc>
ltsp 5.1.56 tagged, 5.1.56-1 uploaded to debian experimental...
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16:02
<TheProf>
There is no jetpipe installed
16:02
it's not even installed on the server
16:02
<vagrantc>
stgraber: ltsp_5.1.56.orig.tar.gz should hit http://incoming.debian.org in the next 15-30 minutes...
16:03
stgraber: actually, looks like it's alredy there.
16:17
<rjune_>
vagrantc: you use ubuntu
16:17
?
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16:50
<TheProf>
Jetpipe doesn't seem to be available on CentOS based on the mailing list archives
16:50
So I'm not sure what to do
16:51
<johnny>
jetpipe is an ltsp specific package
16:51
and might not even be a package
16:51
it isn't on gentoo yet
16:51
it shouldn't be on the server, only on the client
16:51
in gentoo and older ubuntu, it is a part of ltsp-client package
16:51
<TheProf>
johnny, I thought if it was to be accessible from the client, it would need to exist onthe server somewhere.
16:51
<johnny>
no
16:52
it runs locally so the server will know about it
16:52
<TheProf>
I checked the client's shell and it's not there via ps aux | grep jet
16:52
<johnny>
or so the server will know that the client has a printer
16:52
i don't know how it runs
16:52
<TheProf>
OK. is it something that it specific to LTSP 5 only?
16:52
<johnny>
ltsp4 too probably..
16:52
i don't know
16:52
<TheProf>
this is LTSP 4.2 I believe
16:52
<johnny>
but ltsp4 is dead
16:53
i suggest upgrade
16:53
it has security holes
16:53
i coulda swore you said you could print to the client from the client before
16:53
<TheProf>
ironic since I just upgrade TO k12ltsp EL from k12ltsp FC5
16:53
johnny, you are correct -- it worked for an hour :)
16:53
<johnny>
fc5? lol
16:53
try fc10
16:54
<TheProf>
I know.
16:54
Hard to keep up :)
16:54
<johnny>
you'll get actual help if you use a distro that people can fix
16:54
hard to keep up? that's years later
16:54
<TheProf>
It's volunteer position so I can't commit as much time as I'd like.
16:54
and I don't know enough :)
16:55
the k12ltsp distro I thought was the one that was recommended to me to upgrade to. Installs right off the cd.
16:55
<johnny>
why do you think it is ltsp4 ?
16:55
<TheProf>
Because I read it someplace? :) Let me check
16:56
K12LTSP 5-EL, based on CentOS 5, but very old LTSP 4.2 which has been unmaintained since 2004. Support for the terminal server CentOS 5 should run through 2014. This means K12LTSP 5-EL is usable until 2014 with some limitations. Old client hardware will probably work, but newer client hardware lacks drivers and will likely fail.
16:56
From the wiki.
16:57
All my hardware is super old -- the clients are all pentium I and II
16:57
<johnny>
oh
16:57
the amount of people who can help you with ltsp4 is small
16:57
most of the regular lurkers here have never used it
16:57
<TheProf>
drat.
16:58
I figured it was basic enough that it would be no issue.
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16:58
<johnny>
hmm.. pentium1.. that's sad
16:58
i wouldn't expect to be able to use that with linux anything
16:58
even since 2004
16:58
<TheProf>
they actually fly with LTSP.
16:58
they're all donated machines.
16:58
<johnny>
hmm even freegeek gets rid of pentium1
16:59
they don't give away anything less than p3 now
16:59
everything else gets recycled
16:59
mainly cuz they can find no takers i guess
16:59
i'v enever actually gotten a donated machine less than a p3
17:00
<TheProf>
About a month ago I put out a call to our community for any old hardware, hoping to upgrade. I got 1 donation. A 486 and a 14 inch monochrome monitor. :)
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17:01
<johnny>
TheProf, try freecycle or craigslist :)
17:01
or something like that
17:02
too bad shipping computers makes them too expensive
17:02
otherwise i'd send you some
17:02
<TheProf>
That is a good idea thanks. I will try that.
17:02
I appreciate it :)
17:02
<johnny>
make sure you spell out exactly what they are for
17:02
and who they benefit
17:02
<TheProf>
True.
17:03
<johnny>
and set a minimum
17:03
of what you'll accept
17:03
p3 is a good one
17:03
and also take donations of ram
17:03
in case the machines are limited
17:03
<TheProf>
All valid points which is why I probably got that super 486. :)
17:03
<johnny>
you can even say something about not needing hard drives
17:04
since i bet many computers people laying around are ones where "the hard drive has crashed"
17:04
even if that isn't true
17:04
<TheProf>
I think it was rocking with 4 MB ram total. but it did have a big floppy drive :)
17:04
So now the question becomes -- do I blow away the CentOS ltsp 4.2 installation and instead risk download and install the K12 Linux system?
17:04
<johnny>
blow away? how about parallel install?
17:05
or in a virtual machine
17:05
like virtualbox.. which is really simple to use
17:05
<TheProf>
would that allow it to boot up the clients for testing?
17:05
<johnny>
yes
17:05
<TheProf>
basically now the only thing that doesn't work is printing and sound
17:05
<johnny>
if you setup teh right networking components
17:06
ok, i have to prepare for a meeting
17:06
bbiab
17:06
<TheProf>
OK. Is there any where online to read about this?
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17:11
<TheProf>
Anyone have a recommendation on how to test k12linux without destroying the current install?
17:11
<Ryan52>
liveusb?
17:12
<TheProf>
Ryan52, hello. OK I will check into that now. Perhaps that is an option. I was hoping to have all the accounts for the students set up for tomorrow but with this as an option I shouldn't create them in case I have to reinstall.
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17:26
<TheProf>
The hits just keep coming. There's no yum repo for the liveusb-creator for centos 5 it seems, and the direct rpm won't work because of dependencies that, again, aren't part of a repository.
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18:13
<Ryan52>
warren: mkdst-0.11-1.fc11 successfully tagged into f11-alpha-2 by jkeating
18:13
warren: what's that mean?
18:13
oh, wow, I'm stupid.
18:13
:P
18:13
nevermind.
18:14
<warren>
Ryan52: i'm glad you can answer your own questions.
18:14
=)
18:16
<Ryan52>
I misread it in mutt, because everything blinks in mutt on my Fedora system...I should probably figure out how to get a sane xterm installed.
18:17
warren, what terminal do you use?
18:17
<warren>
Ryan52: gnome-terminal?
18:17
Ryan52: I don't use mutt
18:18
<Ryan52>
it's just that I have mutt set up to highlight, and apprently konsole thinks that means blink..
18:19* Ryan52 install gnome-terminal
18:26
<TheProf>
question: does the k12linux liveboot cd, when put on usb and booted, have an irc client?
18:28
<Ryan52>
now, if only gnome-terminal would let me disable this blinking cursor...good enough.
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19:43
<TheProf>
Hello. I took people's recommendation and I'm currently running the server off the K12 Live USB option. No issues with the NIC and a test Pentium III booted up cleanly. However, our lab is composed of all identical machines that are not booting. They get past the crawling blue bars, then the screen goes all weird with vertical white lines. I wanted to update the lts.conf perhaps with a different video module but the lts.conf
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19:43
<warren>
TheProf: what video is in those clients?
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19:44
<TheProf>
warren: they were autodetected in the previous ltsp version so I never had to specify. Let me get that info for you now.
19:45
<warren>
TheProf: what is te previous ltsp version?
19:45
<TheProf>
ltsp 4.2
19:46
was having too many concurrent issues so I upgraded.
19:47
warren: ok so it seems to have an onboard S3 trio 64 card
19:48
the computer is an Vectra VL by HP (pentium I)
19:48
<warren>
TheProf: hmm, that card might have been dropped by x.org upstream
19:48
<TheProf>
oh man.
19:48
<warren>
TheProf: LTSP 4.2 had X drivers from 5 years ago, and even then S3 was obsolete
19:49
<TheProf>
They are running fine off 4.2 - that is what this server was using 10 minutes ago
19:49
<warren>
yes, 4.2 is really ancient
19:50
4.2's kernel and X had no changes since 2004
19:50
TheProf: you might be able to have slow but working video if you switch it to vesa mode.
19:50
hmm
19:50
I don't know the lts.conf option
19:50
<TheProf>
Vesa. ew.
19:51
I'm surprised they would remove support for something once it's in place.
19:51
(what do I know? :) )
19:51
<warren>
TheProf: that isn't the case
19:51
TheProf: X.org changed substantially
19:51
TheProf: if volunteers don't step up to support an old driver it gets dropped, because it doesn't even build
19:52
<TheProf>
with 4.2 I know you could specify something like 'S3' and it would recognize it. You're saying that option is no longer available.
19:52
<warren>
4.2 was SUBSTANTIALLY DIFFERENT
19:52
in many ways
19:52
<TheProf>
gotcha.
19:52
<warren>
LTSP5 relies entirely on autodetection
19:52
if autodetection failed, then your driver is either missing or broken
19:54
<TheProf>
I see.
19:55
<warren>
they stopped selling that card ~13 years ago
19:56
<TheProf>
I'm sure it was at least that long. These are machines that were donated to us from another educational institution.
19:57
<warren>
what you can do is:
19:57
install K12LTSP EL-5 on another box
19:57
use it only to boot those clients
19:57
point their XDMCP to your K12Linux server
19:58
enable XDMCP on your k12linux server
19:58
the networking setup to do this is a bit tricky
19:58
you will have no storage or sound
19:58* TheProf brain is already swelling just from the description
19:59
<warren>
This is your only option
19:59
other htan going back to K12LTSP EL-5
19:59
<TheProf>
Which has it's own issues - lack of sound and printing.
20:00
hmm...question: if I was installing FC 10 on one of these machines as a standalone, does this mean it also wouldn't work because of the video card?
20:00
Or can that be specified someplace else?
20:00
<warren>
K12Linux supports more cards than any other release in history
20:00
just not that one, apparently
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20:00
<warren>
TheProf: yes
20:00
TheProf: the driver support of K12Linux is exactly the same as standard fedora
20:01
<TheProf>
Just my luck. :)
20:01
<nubae>
am I blind or is there no LTSP groups on twitter or identi.ca
20:01
?
20:05
<TheProf>
Just found the specific model - the HP Vectra VL 5 166 series 5 DT - runs at a blazing 166 Mhz with a S3 Trio64V2 video card.
20:06
you'd be surprised how good they are - build in full range speaker on the front with volume control.
20:09
warren: how would I specify the vesa option you were suggesting? my lts.conf is entirely blank.
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20:15
<warren>
TheProf: /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/lts.conf
20:16
<markit>
hi, ltsp 5.1.47 and dnsmasq and tftp-hp works perfectly, but don't understand how :)
20:16
who has created files under /var/lib/tftpboot?
20:16
<TheProf>
warren: thank you.
20:17
<markit>
and why I have edited lts.conf under /opt/ltsp/i386 without doing a ltsp-update-image but client gets the new config?
20:17* markit scratches his head
20:17
<warren>
TheProf: XSERVER=vesa I think
20:18
<TheProf>
great. trying it now
20:19
I know with the older version I could just reboot the client and it would pick up the lts.conf changes. This lts.conf is located in a different directory - will that still work?
20:19
<warren>
TheProf: it grabs this lts.conf during bootup
20:19
<TheProf>
perfect
20:20
<markit>
mmm me under /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/ have only some kernel files... maybe is "the debian way"?
20:22
<warren>
markit: I have no idea what debian does.
20:22
<TheProf>
warren: nope. the white lines went blue - a bit closer but no go :)
20:22
<warren>
TheProf: how much ram in that client?
20:22
TheProf: you seem to be out of luck. there's no way any developer will look at that driver again unless they are paid.
20:23
<TheProf>
I believe the ram is either 1 or 2 MB
20:23
it's not shared with the main ram so even if I could put more in I can't boost it
20:23
system ram I mean.
20:23
warren: sure I understand what you're saying about the driver
20:25
<markit>
ok, time to go to sleep (3:30am here) nite! :)
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20:26
<TheProf>
So basically I'm between a rock and a hard place.
20:26
hmmm.
20:27
<warren>
1 or 2MB is really really dire
20:27
even 5 years ago
20:27
<TheProf>
I was mentioning earlier that when I last was asking for hardware a month ago, I got donated a 486.
20:28
<warren>
donation places these days don't accept things slower than 600mhz
20:30
<TheProf>
Warren: Ideally :) We get the stuff the donation places don't want. Let me ask you this as an advocate for k12linux vs. k12ltsp EL. My major concern now is 1) printing from a printer connected to a USB client 2) sound 3) performance. The setup here is constantly being compared to Windows in those respects.
20:30
<warren>
I know almost nothing about K12LTSP
20:30
and you're trying to use impossibly old hardware
20:31
If you're comparing it to windows, then your clients need to be fairly fast
20:31
<TheProf>
warren: I don't mean with these clients. I'm going to make the argument to upgrade the clients.
20:31
<nubae>
unless its windows 95
20:31
<warren>
I'm sorry, I don't have time to discuss this.
20:32
<TheProf>
nubae: they were designed to run that.
20:32
warren: ok sure - I appreciate the help. thanks
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20:59
<Ryan52>
warren, I think I'm confused :p...why do you do the k12linux-temporary thing?
21:00
what's the difference between that and just putting it into F-10?
21:00
<warren>
Ryan52: it makes available builds to ltsp-build-client before putting it officially into fedora
21:00
Ryan52: also it takes a few days for a fedora update to hit mirrors
21:00
<Ryan52>
ah, ok.
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21:01
<Ryan52>
so you put the packages into bodhi at the same time as you put them into k12linux-temporary?
21:02
<warren>
no
21:02
bodhi is for pushing official updates into fedora
21:02
but it takes a few days to hit mirrors
21:02
thus I use this side thing which is kind of against the rules
21:02
<Ryan52>
heh, I figured that much.
21:02
<warren>
but there is no choice, because it is infeasible to wait several days to test ltsp-build-client
21:03
<Ryan52>
ah.
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21:04
<kaos01>
i just upgraded my fedora box, but it seesm LTSP stayed at F9
21:04
<Ryan52>
warren, so you don't test the packages before you put them into k12linux-temporary?
21:04* Ryan52 still is a bit lost
21:04
<warren>
Ryan52: I test them only locally before putting them into k12linux-temporary, which then allows me to do a full test of ltsp-build-client
21:05
Ryan52: also the livecd creation pulls from k12linux-temporary, so I don't have to wait for fedora mirrors
21:05
every morning at 10am my box builds a new livecd
21:05
<Ryan52>
oh, ok.
21:06
<warren>
crap
21:06
something changed in 5.1.56
21:06
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1098514&name=build.log
21:06
Ryan52: want to figure it out and tag it as ltsp-5.1.56-2.fc11?
21:06
Ryan52: good practice editing the spec file to match upstream changes
21:07
whatever this is...
21:07
<Ryan52>
ya, sure.
21:10
<alexbodn>
hello friends. i'm using debian lenny for both the client and server. now my client boots and prompts with username. i added an user in chroot, and the client's ltsp.org gui flicked when i identified. but then i got back to the prompt, without logging in. login on console does work
21:11
<Ryan52>
it's 400 lines long (not including changelog) :O
21:11
<alexbodn>
any idea?
21:16
<warren>
Ryan52: well, http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/getfile?taskID=1098514&name=build.log indicates exactly what it was doing when it failed, which seems related to an upstream change
21:16
<Ryan52>
warren, ya, I know.
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21:28
<Ryan52>
warren, which versions do you want me upload to? (/me guesses all 3, but wants to make sure since you didn't commit it to F-9)
21:29
<warren>
Ryan52: yeah, take your fixed version and apply to all
21:29
did you bump Release to 2?
21:29
<Ryan52>
oops.
21:29
<warren>
go ahead and replace my name in the changelog and add something more descriptive if you want
21:29
just replace my -1 entry with your -2
21:30
<Ryan52>
the fact that you have to change the version in 2 places (changelog and in the metadata) is gonna be really hard for me to get used to, because Debian packages base the version off of the latest changelog entry.
21:32
<warren>
yeah, the changelog entries here are just text
21:32* Ryan52 will just use -2
21:38
<Ryan52>
okay, it's building.
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21:41
<cyberorg>
vagrantc, hi, ps will not show the password though
21:42
<Ryan52>
cyberorg, if you do ldm_spawn, I think it will.
21:42
doesn't it write that to the logs?
21:42
<cyberorg>
Ryan52, nope, it just shows XXXX
21:42
<Ryan52>
ah.
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21:46
<Ryan52>
gah, crap.
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21:46
<Ryan52>
warren, can I reupload with -2 again? I forgot to copy over sources to the F-9 branch.
21:46
or will that blow up everything?
21:47
<warren>
Ryan52: checkin sources on the F-9 branch and do this:
21:47
Ryan52: make tag TAG_OPTS=-F
21:47
Ryan52: we discourage people from using -F so it is hidden in this way.
21:48
Ryan52: be pretty damn sure you got it right before you use -F
21:48
<Ryan52>
kk, thanks.
21:48
why is it discouraged?
21:49
<warren>
Ryan52: rewriting history
21:49
Ryan52: we did an automated test comparing all tags to RPMS from the last 7 years, and we found only 3 cases where people screwed up a force tag
21:50
<Ryan52>
oh.
21:59
and now it's all built
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22:02
<warren>
Ryan52: ok, testing the F-10 now
22:03
<Ryan52>
warren, speaking of testing, have you ever used one kvm guest as the ltsp server and another as the thin client?
22:03
I have them both connecting to a bridge that's connected to my main interface.
22:03
and for some reason they can't talk to each other (tftp just hangs)
22:04
<warren>
Ryan52: it is a little complicated but it can be made to work
22:04
Ryan52: the bridge itself has an IP address that likely matches what the LTSP server wants to be
22:04
and of course make sure they are connected to the same bridge
22:05
<Ryan52>
okay, well my physical thin client can talk to the virtual ltsp server and my virtual thin client can talk to my physical ltsp server. so everything is set up rightish, afaik.
22:06
what else should I have to do?
22:07
<warren>
Ryan52: just test
22:07
Ryan52: if my local test works, then i'm building a new livecd
22:08
and this might be the major release
22:11
Ryan52: are we at the latest version of ltspfs?
22:12
Ryan52: ok moving forward, assuming these current versions are our major stable release, go ahead and continue to build point releases into devel only.
22:12
Ryan52: if there is a big reason, we can build in F-9 and F-10 after a few big bug fixes happen.
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22:14
<warren>
Ryan52: ok, please go ahead and put ltsp-5.1.56 into k12linux-temporary, let me know when that's done.
22:15
Ryan52: need an explanation how again?
22:15
<Ryan52>
what about ldm? or did you already put it there?
22:16
we're at the latest tagged ltspfs, tho there's tons of changes after the last tag.
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22:18
<Ryan52>
I might be able to figure out how to put stuff into k12linux-temporary, tho I don't know how to use lftp (or any ftp client for that matter)...
22:20
<warren>
lftp browses http as well
22:20
Ryan52: cd into the directory you want, then mget something/with/wildcards*
22:20
Ryan52: browsepackage ltsp
22:20
Ryan52: stupid little shell script
22:22
<Ryan52>
which dist(s) do I want to download?
22:22
<warren>
fc9 and fc10
22:22
put them into the incoming directory
22:22
then run that regen script
22:23
whatever is left over in incoming isn't used
22:23
for example F-9 we didn't care about ppc
22:23
F-10 has ppc but not ppcy64
22:23
ppc64
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22:25
<Ryan52>
./bin/regen-repos.sh: line 10: [: too many arguments
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22:25
<warren>
Ryan52: yeah, curiously enough the non-zero error code despite that still denotes exactly what I want.
22:26
<Ryan52>
heh. ok.
22:26
okay, so now what?
22:26
oh, should I have downloaded the .src.rpms too?
22:27
oh, nevermind, it did :p
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22:32* warren starts the livecd
22:34
<warren>
ok, this will take a while
22:34
i'll upload it tomorrow and a few of us can test it before it is released
22:34
<Ryan52>
ok
22:38
<warren>
Ryan52: how confident are we in these current versions?
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22:59
<Ryan52>
warren, in ldm, a lot. in the rest, haven't tried them yet.
22:59
<johnny>
fedora needs to do more error checking in system-config-display ..
23:00
thing fails on an empty xorg.conf.. with a python traceback
23:00
so users are in the dark as to why it doesn't start
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