IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 18 May 2008   (all times are UTC)

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09:18
<petre>
morning all
09:18
<beakburke>
morning
09:19
<petre>
hey beakburke, still got snow on the ground up there?
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09:19
<beakburke>
nope, nice yesterday atually
09:19
they ran a marathon here
09:20
been nice for a couple weeks
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09:24
<beakburke>
was a little windy though
09:24
how's it down there?
09:25
<petre>
I was in Fargo in March, snowed the whole weekend
09:25
<beakburke>
Yeah, we kind of had a winter redux. It was odd.
09:25
Twice.
09:25
<petre>
it's nice here finally
09:25
<beakburke>
melted after a couple days though, it was nice again
09:26* warren here
09:29
<beakburke>
Sorry I've been out of touch for a couple weeks. How are things going?
09:30
<petre>
so have I, just finishing up teaching a linux admin class which takes a lot more time than I thought
09:30* petre has basically contributed nothing to k12linux
09:30
<beakburke>
Half a dozen small projects, visited my brother, etc etc.
09:31
well, I'm here now
09:31
<petre>
I may also have another school adopting ltsp
09:34
<beakburke>
good deal, EL5?
09:34
or ubuntu or FC9
09:34
<petre>
yes, I'll be showing them EL5
09:35
although, I hope they won't want it before the fall, so maybe k12linux will be feasible
09:35
I'll need the summer to get it all setup, as I'm just doing it as a favor
09:36
<beakburke>
yeah, Fedora (once all the kinks are worked out) is the best demo, but I hate having such a short support cycle in a real deployment like that.
09:36
<petre>
even on EL5 somethings are starting to go stale
09:36
<beakburke>
exactly
09:36
<petre>
because they reference some f6 repos
09:37
getting flash 9 sound working took some hunting
09:37
<beakburke>
The up to date Fedora is a much better desktop experience. It's just that release cycle
09:37
<petre>
I should probably update the wiki page for sound & el5
09:38
<warren>
crap, EL5 has no pulse
09:38
<beakburke>
that would be much appreciated
09:38
it's dead???
09:38
i mean i know it's a little stale but ... :D
09:39
<petre>
actually, I installed pulse on el5 as a step toward trying to make flash sound work
09:39
<beakburke>
you do that manually?
09:39
<petre>
the last step, the one afterwhich flash sound started working, was installing libflashsupport
09:40
<beakburke>
i take it that this is a little bit of a hack??
09:40
<petre>
yes, there's a page on the wiki about it that I wrote, mostly because I knew I wouldn't remember how in the future
09:40
yeah, it's a hack, from the revolutionlinux guys
09:40
<warren>
well
09:40
fedora 8+ uses pulse and libflashsupport by default
09:40
you can't use ALSA directly, in fact
09:40
<petre>
and I'm not certain that it was necessary
09:41
<warren>
if you want remote sound, you need pulse
09:41
<petre>
I also had installed Gadi's OSS-ALSA patch
09:41
<warren>
flash itself will output only to ALSA unless you have libflashsupport, then it outputs to whatever libflashsupport is built to do
09:41
<beakburke>
IC
09:41
<petre>
what is libflashsupport built to do?
09:42
<warren>
there's many different forks of libflashsupport
09:42
use the one from pulseaudio
09:42
libflashsupport allows flash to output sound in different ways
09:42
flash itself knows only ALSA
09:42
<petre>
I used the one from the default repos
09:43
plus freshrpms
09:43
livna repo seems broken
09:44
i.e., config file for livna repo
09:44
<warren>
Flash 10 beta released a few days ago has a bug fix for sound
09:44
it crashes a lot less
09:44
and it works with pulseaudio's alsa emulation
09:44
thus it works without libflashsupport on F8+ and F9+ in my testing even without libflashsupport
09:45
for both normal desktops and LTSP5 thin clients with pulseaudio
09:45
<petre>
cool!
09:45
<beakburke>
maybe it would work on EL5 with pulse then
09:45
without the libflash hack?
09:48
<warren>
libflash isn't really a hack
09:48
it was provided by adobe as the official way to do sound in unsupported ways
09:48
unfortuantely there are too many unstandard forks of it
09:48
<beakburke>
that's what I mean
09:49
<warren>
you not only need pulseaudio
09:49
but also alsa-plugins-pulseaudio
09:49
which makes the "default" alsa device pusleaudio itself
09:49
so apps don't try to use the sound device directly
09:50
<beakburke>
now THAT is a clever bit of work
09:52
<petre>
warren, sorry I haven't done anything for ltsp-server-initialize, but I have what may be a naive question
09:53
<warren>
beakburke: you haven't used F8 or F9? that's been default for a while.
09:53
<petre>
the steps listed in the installation page on the k12linux wiki, steps 7-10...
09:53
<warren>
petre: seems eharrison got it working, with the exception that you need to drop in a working ifcfg-eth0 file yourself
09:53
yeah, the docs really need expansion
09:53
I've been really sick lately
09:54
<petre>
I'll can try to help with the docs
09:54
<beakburke>
I got FC9 up and running
09:54
<petre>
what's different about the ifcfg-eth0 file from a stock one? the bridge?
09:54
<beakburke>
but I haven't hadn't messed around with sound yet
09:55
<warren>
beakburke: you shouldn't need to, it should just work
09:55
petre: there is no stock one
09:55
petre: system-config-network might create one, but there is no stock
09:55
<beakburke>
I just mean I hadn't tried using anything with sound yet
09:56
<warren>
petre: it is a challenge to write documentation for users to PROPERLY setup their eth interfaces and know which is which, so they wont screw their own networks by attaching the bridge to the wrong interface.
09:57
OK, it seems none of the other developers are here today
09:57
and I'm not feeling well
09:57
<petre>
isn't one created duing the f9 install? or do you mean there needs to be a new one in the chroot?
09:57
<warren>
no
09:58
<beakburke>
you need to bond one if the
09:58
NICs to a real eth interfac
09:58
<warren>
AFAIK you don't get a ifcfg-eth0 these days
09:58
<beakburke>
if you want to boot actual clients
09:58
<warren>
since NetworkManager handles it
09:58
<beakburke>
it's in the network setup part of the wiki
09:59
I killed network manager since it apparently doesn't handle bridgine
09:59
<warren>
beakburke: yeah, but not nearly enough detail there
09:59
<beakburke>
yeah, sorry
09:59
<warren>
beakburke: yeah, that's the best idea for LTSP servers
09:59
there is a way to use both network and NetworkManager simultaneously
09:59
but
09:59
beakburke: btw, were you the one that requested wiki edit access?
09:59
<beakburke>
I was going to go back and flesh it out a little, just been so busy
09:59
Yep, that was me
10:00
<warren>
you sent me a request but I don't know what is your fedora account name
10:00
<beakburke>
huh, well it's working
10:00
<warren>
oh
10:00
ok
10:00
<beakburke>
I edited some of the stuff on https://fedorahosted.org/k12linux/
10:00
<petre>
warren was probably delirious from his illness when he setup beakburke's access
10:01
<beakburke>
most likely
10:01
<petre>
doesn't remember doing it
10:01
<beakburke>
I did add a bunch of stuff in the network setup part
10:01
<warren>
ok, keep it coming
10:03
<beakburke>
that was a while ago
10:05
I guess I just need to know what you think are the biggest holdups to getting the FC9 build to the level of usability of the old K12LTSP.
10:06
from what I can tell, almost all the functionality is there now. It's mostly getting the automatic LTSP server setup parts right.
10:06
basically, the install process
10:06
<warren>
I think mainly documentation has to be improved
10:06
I'm focused on fixing bugs
10:07
<beakburke>
is Eric working on the installer part
10:08
<warren>
I dunno
10:08
you could ask him
10:08
I still want to do the "LTSP Live Server" installer
10:08
which lets you run a LTSP server directly from the live media
10:08
<petre>
in a separate ISO?
10:08
<warren>
or install it from the live media
10:09
install includes both the server and chroot
10:09
<beakburke>
The instructions don't bother me, but I think a lot of the newbies who used K12LTSP would have a hard time with it.
10:09
<warren>
beakburke: yes, that's why the instructions need a lot more details
10:09* petre agrees with beakburke
10:09
<beakburke>
It was already integrated in there
10:09
Yeah, I know
10:09
<warren>
the old way of installing LTSP isn't going to work so well for us anymore
10:10
<beakburke>
I'm just saying that some users aren't going to even be happy with that.
10:10
<warren>
does Ubuntu 8.04 have an installer that does the chroot directly from media as well?
10:10
<petre>
depends on how automatic we can make the config
10:10
I don't think so
10:10
<warren>
petre: ltsp-server-initialize is currently very automatic EXCEPT the network part because it is too easy to screw up.
10:10
<petre>
the ltsp installer is only on the alternative install CD
10:11
according to ogra
10:11
<beakburke>
They want an appliance out of the box. Like a preconfigured appliance.
10:11
That's not really on you warren
10:11
<warren>
if you have an idea of how to configure hte network part automatically without screwing anyone..
10:12
regardless we need more details in the documentation so people can possibly understand the network part
10:12
<beakburke>
Maybe it should ask
10:12
<petre>
I was just thinking that even if you had a 'k12linux server' option in yumex, the admin still has to make some choices
10:12
<warren>
it IS complicateed, but they DO need to get it right.
10:12
<petre>
like how many nics, etc.
10:12
<beakburke>
That is the big thing
10:12
<petre>
and when there are choices, people can get things wrong, like screwing the network
10:12
<warren>
given that we now auto-configure the dhcp and all services run on ltspbr0 automatically
10:12
setting up the interfaces is the ONLY thing they have to figure out
10:13
<petre>
do we require 2 nics?
10:13
<warren>
well, it is a lot more complicated if you don't have 2 nics
10:13
<beakburke>
I think we should require it if you want the "Toaster" install
10:14
where it just works automagically
10:14
<petre>
that's probably okay
10:14
<warren>
if you really want to help 1) add more details to the current documentation 2) write your ideas of how to improve the network setup part to the list
10:14
<beakburke>
If you want to use one NIC, then you are going to have to muck with DNS, DHCP, etc anyways
10:14
Will do.
10:14
<warren>
If you have multiple LTSP servers with dhcp on a separate box, you don't necessarily need two nics
10:15
but it does help to have more nics...
10:15
<petre>
I still run single nic setups in some offices,
10:15
but I can deal with the extra config effort
10:15
<beakburke>
helps segment the traffic too
10:16
I just want to make sure we still have the same newbie friendly possibility that we did before.
10:16
<warren>
ok, any other topics you want to discuss?
10:16
the Live LTSP Server idea would auto-run everything and ltspbr0
10:16
but there is STILL no good way to auto-configure the network ther
10:16
there
10:16
they would need to do it manually based upon actual decisions
10:17
<petre>
could that be done via some dialog boxes?
10:17
<beakburke>
Eg. one or two nic setup
10:17
<warren>
anyone have time to write them?
10:18
petre: it isn't a trivial task because the ifcfg-ethX files don't even exist yet
10:19
<petre>
right, but ifcfg-ethX scripts are pretty small, could be built into a script which is then called via some zenity dialogs (?)
10:19
<warren>
if you knew exactly what you wanted to do
10:19
maybe
10:19
but figure out exactly what detection needs to happen?
10:20
it is a non-trivial thing to get this right for everyone
10:20
too many different combinations of network configs, hardware, etc.
10:22
perhaps the Live LTSP Server should turn off NetworkManager by default
10:22
because it is way too configure
10:22
i mean confusing
10:22
<beakburke>
That's what I wrote in the wiki
10:22
<petre>
so, we'd have to detect which nic is already connected to the main network?
10:22
and not use that one?
10:22
<warren>
petre: that isn't trivial
10:23
<petre>
that kind of 'detection':
10:23
s/:/?/
10:23
<warren>
if you want to write a flow chart of how a tool would detect and configure things
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10:23
<warren>
if (this) then that
10:23
go ahead
10:24
I have to get going soon
10:24
these are good ideas
10:24
just it will take a lot of work
10:24
<beakburke>
it's simpler to just disable networkManager, set your NICs to DHCP, figure out which one is getting the address from the main network and make the other one the bridge
10:24
<warren>
start writing them down
10:25
beakburke: then that procedure should be written in the wiki
10:25
beakburke: you can handle that right? =)
10:25
<beakburke>
will do, it's partly there already, at least the bit about disabling NetworkManager
10:25
<petre>
beakburke, that's what I was thinking, but worried that I was foolishly trivializing something
10:25
<beakburke>
mabye i did trivalize it??
10:25
<warren>
make the documentation more clear first
10:25
<beakburke>
K
10:25
<warren>
I agree we need a better detection tool eventually
10:26
but let's figure out the manual steps first
10:26
<beakburke>
That I CAN DO
10:26
<warren>
ok, I gotta go
10:26
thanks for coming.
10:26
<petre>
until next time, then...
10:26
<beakburke>
yup
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12:35
<jammcq>
hey cliebow
12:35
<cliebow>
Ho!
12:35
<jammcq>
back home?
12:35
<cliebow>
Edinburgh..
12:35
<jammcq>
ah, having fun?
12:35
<cliebow>
very much so..
12:36
<johnny>
beep!
12:36
<cliebow>
good food..awesme scenery..
12:36
just asking over in #scotlug for somewhere neat to eat
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12:39
<cliebow>
jammcq: im gonafind some food..glad to see you are all there..
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14:29
<vagrantc>
wow. i haven't done any ltsp related uploads to debian in almost two weeks!
14:29
everything has sucessfully migrated to lenny ...
14:30
still need to do the cdpinger and ltspfsd started from udev stuff ... but otherwise, i'm overall quite happy with it.
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15:37
<sebas891>
hi folks.
15:37
LTSP rocks! but I know that you all know!
15:38
<vagrantc>
doesn't hurt to hear it now and then :)
15:38
otherwise, all we hear from people is what's broken
15:38
<sebas891>
I think it's one of the "best" linux projects!
15:40
reusing old hardware, building cheap computers labs for everyone! all that on free software!
15:42
but I would like to use wine apps on some clients, and it's not working!
15:42
X crashs and I'm back to the login! :(
15:43
I've googled around... but I didn't find any pointers...
15:43
I'm using ltsp5 on kubuntu 7.10.
15:43
<vagrantc>
do they work when not used on thin clients?
15:43
i.e. is it an LTSP specific problem
15:44
<sebas891>
I can use wine apps on the server without problems.
15:44
<vagrantc>
look in your user's ~/.xsession-errors ... maybe find something there
15:45
<sebas891>
ok.
15:45
anything else, I could look at? is there a debug mode some how?
15:46
<vagrantc>
how much ram do your thin clients have?
15:47
<sebas891>
64 meg.
15:47
<vagrantc>
graphic-intesive things will consume a lot of memory sometimes, which will crash the X server ...
15:48
unfortunately, due to the way some applications are written, sometimes even 64MB isn't enough anymore.
15:48
<sebas891>
I can know the amount of memory by login in the client machine?
15:48
<vagrantc>
you would have to log into the client itself ...
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15:49
<vagrantc>
rather than logging into the server through the thin client
15:49
<sebas891>
I also tried with machines with 256 meg and 512 meg ... same story.
15:49
I enable root on the clients so I can login :)
15:50
more, I would like to monitor the clients with munin or collectd.
15:52
vagrantc: thanks I will at this tomorrow.
16:01
<vagrantc>
sebas891: good luck.
16:03
<sebas891>
thanks.
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17:22
<vagrantc>
yay. debian lenny with NBD+squashfs+aufs is working nicely.
17:23
<jammcq>
you rock
17:24
<vagrantc>
i've mostly just glued together the rocks that others have provided.
17:24
a conglomerate, of sorts.
17:24
well, i guess working nicely is a bit of a stretch.
17:24
it still requires a good deal of manual configuration
17:33* vagrantc wonders will ogra will have word weather ubuntu is switching to aufs
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19:25
<vagrantc>
hrm... grabbing lts.conf via tftp doesn't seem to work for me...
19:25
but i can pass options via the boot prompt :)
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20:56
<warren>
vagrantc: you're grabbing via tftp from initramfs right?
20:56
<vagrantc>
warren: yes
20:56
<warren>
vagrantc: I'm doing it very very late, immediately before screens runs
20:57
vagrantc: saw my post?
20:57
<vagrantc>
ogra wanted it to happen in initramfs, so that initramfs could actually make use of configuration fivalues
20:57
<warren>
I see the -n option in getltscfg code but I don't see it actually used by Debian
20:57
<vagrantc>
yes, we don't make much use of getltscfg directly
20:58
<warren>
what options in lts.conf are used at that point?
20:58
is this guy actually wrong then?
20:58
<vagrantc>
for values that don't set defaults in /usr/share/ltsp/ltsp_config, it would probably be fine
20:58
many lts.conf options are used, just not by using getltscfg directly ... ltsp_config calles getltscfg
21:00* vagrantc looks for warren's post
21:01
<vagrantc>
warren: "getltscfg -a" gets client-specific settings.
21:01
i don't know what -n does
21:02
<warren>
oh, he wrote back, he was wrong
21:02
<vagrantc>
heh
21:03
maybe -n gets settings that are different from the defaults?
21:04
warren: how'd the release go? ltsp in decent shape?
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21:05
<warren>
vagrantc: post-release found and fixed little things (you can see in ltsp-trunk)
21:05
vagrantc: main thing that's broken is etherboot. it utterly fails with all three wrapping tools due to some yet unkonwn upstream kernel change.
21:05
or maybe gcc-4.3
21:06
<vagrantc>
warren: what version numbers did you end up releasing with?
21:06
<warren>
5.1.7 I think
21:06
<vagrantc>
ldm, ltspfs?
21:07
<warren>
ldm-2.0.4-1.fc9 ltspfs-0.5.2-1.fc9 ltsp-5.1.7-2.fc9
21:07
the next major two changes I want to make:
21:08
1) Move many of the post-install ltsp-build-client plugins into an in-chroot plugin system
21:08
<vagrantc>
debian should hit freeze in about a month
21:08
<warren>
since I need package upgrades to DTRT
21:08
<vagrantc>
yeah, upgradeable chroots would be very nice.
21:08
<warren>
I might not be able to achieve this 100% but I hope I can.
21:08
<vagrantc>
that's actually one of the things that lessdisks probably handled a little better
21:08
<warren>
lessdisks?
21:09
<vagrantc>
i would like to move more in-chroot
21:09
warren: the diskless terminal project i wrote and worked on from 2001-2005
21:09
<warren>
I plan on running an in-chroot script like ltsp-chroot-setup in my package %post, but it immediately exists if /etc/ltsp_chroot doesn't exist.
21:09
err
21:09
exits
21:10
we can have common and distro-specific plugins in there too
21:10
I guess
21:10
<vagrantc>
basically, ltsp5 did most things very similarly to lessdisks, so i started working on ltsp5
21:10
<warren>
oh shit, I didn't buy my tickets for portland yet
21:11
<vagrantc>
well, i managed to get use freegeek space for july 25th-28th
21:12
i know some people are leaving on the 27th or 28th, but it doesn't conflict with anything else, so i figured i'd grab the whole weekend
21:16
hmmm... sounds like aufs is compatible with nfs ...
21:17
<warren>
huh?
21:17
compatible in what way?
21:18
<vagrantc>
well, unionfs and nfs didn't play together nicely
21:19
so you couldn't use nfs as a readonly backend with something writeable layered on top ... but apparently aufs works fine.
21:19
<warren>
should I bother making a plugin system for ltsp-chroot-setup?
21:19
we do very different things
21:19
it would be a lot quicker to have our own scripts
21:20
although if other distros want to use the same concept I suppose it could be done
21:20
<vagrantc>
depends on how likely you are to share with other rpm based distros
21:20
<warren>
this has no value to deb distros?
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21:20
<vagrantc>
overall, i'm inclined to use plugins.
21:20
though not at boot time
21:21
<warren>
yeah, these aren't for boot time
21:21
these are during package install and upgrade
21:21
<vagrantc>
the amount shared between distros that are radically different is probably even less than what's in ltsp-build-client plugins
21:22
<warren>
I wonder if the times during which we grab lts.conf will bite us
21:22
<vagrantc>
that's the only reason why i specified rpm based distros
21:22
<warren>
I do it VERY late, you do it early.
21:22
<vagrantc>
well, i actually still just use NFS by default :)
21:22
<warren>
oh
21:22
it seems to be working reliably here
21:23
<vagrantc>
oh, i've been using dnsmasq as the tftp server
21:23
i should try it with tftpd-hpa ...
21:23
<warren>
oh?
21:23
<vagrantc>
overall, i've been very happy with dnsmasq as both dhcp and tftp server.
21:23
<warren>
it might be nice to use dnsmasq for dhcp, dns and tftp
21:24
<vagrantc>
tiny, easy to configure, and you get a dns cacher for free.
21:26* warren sleep
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22:32
<vagrantc>
i've had some communication with Ken Yap regarding p910nd ... surprising what an off-hand, not very confident yet minor slander can do. :)
22:33
not sure what it's missing relative to either the python or C jetpipe variants, or lp_server ...
22:34
or if it works better than any of those
22:34
but it's certainly been around a long time
22:34
<jammcq>
p910d is very simple
22:35
we used it for a while, but someone found that lp-server handles HP printers better
22:35
something about reading printer status messages
22:35
<vagrantc>
still haven't heard from lp_server upstream, though ... so that's not really an option anymore (at least for debian)
22:36
<jammcq>
I agree
22:36
<vagrantc>
maybe it also doesn't support serial?
22:36
<jammcq>
it supports it
22:36
ummm, I think it does
22:36
<vagrantc>
hmmm...
22:36
<jammcq>
at some point, for really old ltsp, we took p910d and modified it to support serial
22:36
<vagrantc>
well, i'm considering giving it a whirl.
22:37
<jammcq>
but.... I don't know where that code is anymore
22:37
<vagrantc>
cvs, one would hope?
22:37
<jammcq>
although I should be able to scrape it up
22:37
heh, cvs.... for ltsp 2.x ???
22:37
<vagrantc>
heh
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23:45
<emercado>
thanks to everyone who helped with a dhcp issue earlier..it appears the install of OS was bad..and I re-installed 64 bit version, with 32 bit client. Performance is great now...thanks again...45 clients humming along nicely!
23:47cpunches is now known as Patrick_Starfish
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