IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 22 May 2012   (all times are UTC)

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01:20
<dgeary2>
i'm trying to convert what turned out to be a regular install into an LTSP chroot (using Debian Squeeze). The following message is displayed when trying to install the ltsp-client package: The ltsp-client package provides the basic structure for an LTSP terminal. It cannot be installed on a regular machine.
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07:07
<jimjimovich>
Hi everyone. Anyone have any experience with Ubuntu 12.04 LTSP yet?
07:15
<trubbor>
jimjimovich: I've had GREAT success with the new Ubuntu 12.04 LTSP
07:16
<jimjimovich>
trubbor: this is encouraging to hear! we've been running 10.04 for about 18 months with good success. I'm a little worried about doing the upgrade
07:16
trubbor: are there any specific instructions that you followed or resources you could point me to?
07:17
<trubbor>
jimjimovich: Is 10.04 running LTSP 4?
07:17
<jimjimovich>
trubbor: I'm not sure, it's running whatever 10.04 came with.
07:17
we're planning to do a complete reinstall, not going to try an actual upgrade
07:17
<alkisg>
LTSP 5
07:18
Client RAM?
07:18
<jimjimovich>
we have a variety of machines, I think most have at least 512 or 1 GB
07:18
we have a lot of miniITX atom boards with 1GB of RAM
07:19
<alkisg>
Nice, ok, minimum is 128mb ram so you shouldn't have problems with that
07:19
<jimjimovich>
is Unity working well on clients?
07:19
<trubbor>
I'm using FOXCONN Nettop's with ATOM425's and 2GB ram - works GREAT!
07:19
I only get Unity 2D
07:20
<alkisg>
Unity 3d doesn't work on thin clients, so yeah, unity 2d or gnome-classic, unless if you want to switch to fat clients
07:21
<trubbor>
alkisg: Will Intel P4 with 256MB (possibly 512MB) work OK?
07:21
<alkisg>
256 is ok for thin clients, yeah
07:21
<trubbor>
A school wants to try it.
07:22
alkisg: Will ION driver run Unity 3D?
07:22
I have a Zotac Atom Nettop with ION
07:22
<alkisg>
I've no idea what ION is
07:22
Unity 3d over the network is difficult
07:22
<trubbor>
ION GPU - Nvidia
07:22
<alkisg>
With fat clients it's easy, but not with thin
07:23
<trubbor>
Fat = NVidia drivers in image?
07:23
<alkisg>
Fat == all applications in image, so gnome runs locally
07:23
!fatclients
07:23
<ltsp`>
alkisg: fatclients: You may find some info about the Ubuntu/LTSP implementation of fat clients at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients
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07:24
<jimjimovich>
what's the main advantage of thin over fat clients? as we've been working with the system over the last couple years, i started to wonder if maybe fat clients were not a better idea.
07:25
<trubbor>
Copy - haven't tried Fat yet
07:25
<jimjimovich>
also, if i remember correctly, can't you have a mixed environment where some clients boot as thin clients from the same image as the fat clients?
07:26
<trubbor>
jimjimovich: I am thinking of putting Skype client on clients - not sure if that is "localapps" or Fatclient
07:26
<jimjimovich>
we've had very good luck with Skype as localapp
07:26
<trubbor>
Skype to use USB camera at client
07:26
<alkisg>
thin = no user apps in image, localapps = a few apps in image, fat = all apps in image
07:26
<jimjimovich>
if you run it as a localapp (on the client), then all the sound and video camera stuff "just works"
07:26
<trubbor>
How about the browser - do you run that local, or from the server?
07:27
<alkisg>
A fat chroot can serve all 3 cases, thin, localapps, fat clients
07:27
<jimjimovich>
we chose to run Firefox as a localapp. now some people are choosing to use Chrome on the server and claim that it works better
07:28
offloading the browser to the client really helps with RAM usage on the server
07:28
alkisg: is the boot time for a fat client significantly slower?
07:28
<trubbor>
jimjimmovich - there is a new thin client mgr software called epoptes in 12.04 that you'll really like
07:28
<alkisg>
Nope, I had fat clients booting in 13 secs
07:29
<trubbor>
jimjimovich: What kind of server specs are you using
07:29
<jimjimovich>
so the main advantage of a thin client would be in the case of a low-end client?
07:30
we have a 6-core AMD processor and 16GB of RAM in the server
07:30
<trubbor>
and how many clients are you serving?
07:30
<jimjimovich>
with about 20 clients, we've never came close to maxing it out
07:31
<trubbor>
Aweome. I'm coming over from the RDP/Citrix world - and so far am really impressed with LTSP
07:31
<jimjimovich>
12 clients (very active) logged in now and we're only using 4.6 GB of RAM and CPUs ranging from 5-20%
07:31
the two biggest bottlenecks are network speed and hard drive speed
07:32
get gigabit ethernet everywhere you possibly can
07:32
<alkisg>
jimjimovich: the network bandwidth is the biggest issue with fat clients, yes. E.g. an HD video needs more than 1 gbps bandwidth for 1 client only.
07:32
*with thin
07:33
While with fat, it only needs 1 mbps or so
07:33
<jimjimovich>
yeah, we had to make all the video players localapps to get any performance on thin clients
07:34
<trubbor>
Thanks for the stats - I'm getting ready to install an LTSP system in my sister's school - with other campuses to follow. Hardest part is really just the switch to open source apps from MS, etc
07:35
<alkisg>
One good first step is to get them to use openoffice and firefox on windows _first_
07:35
<jimjimovich>
so with a fat client, you basically have a regular desktop that boots from the network and has the home directory mounted on the server ... other than that, it's not that much different from a standard install, right?
07:35
<alkisg>
If they're ok with that for 1 year, then the switch to linux is much easier
07:36
<trubbor>
alkisg: exactly - "phase one" is Libreoffice transition
07:36
<jimjimovich>
yeah, not directly related to LTSP. but by far, our biggest problem and complaint has been OpenOffice. People got used to Ubuntu really quickly, but they generally hate OpenOffice :(
07:36
<alkisg>
jimjimovich: yes, ltsp benefits for fat clients vs standard installations: 1 image for all clients, centralized authentication with ssh, centralized /homes with sshfs
07:37
<jimjimovich>
alkisg: thanks for the info. that's kinda what i was thinking, just trying to re-gain a hold on the situation again. it's been a while since I really had to dig into this stuff. As I remember, you helped me last time too :)
07:37
<alkisg>
:)
07:38
<jimjimovich>
trubbor: by the way, you can always run MS Office via Wine if people really need it (but you didn't hear that from me)
07:38
<trubbor>
6 minutes till spaceX launch
07:38
<jimjimovich>
alkisg: how long have you been involved with LTSP?
07:38
<alkisg>
Since 2008
07:39
<jimjimovich>
alkisg: i knew you've been around for a long time
07:39
<alkisg>
Well not too long; others here have been around since 2000 :)
07:39
<jimjimovich>
we did our first install in 2006 with Ubuntu 6.06. every two years, it's been SO much easier!
07:39
i remember spending 2 weeks to get floppies and flash drives to work on the clients back in 2006
07:41
<trubbor>
Wow!!! - You've been at this for awhile
07:41
jimjimovich - do get a lot of media (video) playing from users?
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07:48
<jimjimovich>
trubbor: honestly, I don't know. I don't think so. It's mostly office staff using them. in our student lab, there is a bit more
07:49
the whole system has been basically problem free for almost a year
07:49
:)
07:49
in fact, 99% of our "problems" all result from the need to support legacy versions of Word and Excel
07:51
this epoptes thing looks really cool, especially the ability to message clients. sometimes i need them to log off or something
07:51
<trubbor>
jimjimovich: That's great success. One the Word / Excel issues - is it mostly user familiarization with OpenOffice that is the remedy?
07:51
<jimjimovich>
for Word, mostly. for Excel, it's legacy accounting spreadsheets and the refusal of accounting to move to OpenOffice
07:52
<trubbor>
OK - I think I'll have it a little easier - my user's Excel usage isn't too intense - and LibreOffice may be a littel more compatible
07:52
<jimjimovich>
for our situation, MS Office 2010/2007 + Ubuntu LTSP would probably be absolutely perfect. But our bosses refuse to pay for MS stuff anymore :)
07:53
also, people really complain about OpenOffice Presentations
07:54
overall, I'd say it's been a HUGE success. the only remaining complaints I hear are all related to office apps. or the lack of Photoshop (which is stupid because even if we had Windows, these people would not have Photoshop licenses)
07:55
with Ubuntu 12.04, can you chose different desktop environments (gnome classic, unity) for individual users? or can they somehow chose themselves?
07:55
<alkisg>
jimjimovich: we publish epoptes in our PPA for 10.04 too, it's not only for 12.04
07:56
<trubbor>
Epoptes is pretty sharp. Now that OpenOffice and LibreOffice are kind of competing - perhaps things will improve. Yes - you have an option to select the session from the login screen
07:56
<jimjimovich>
alkisg: cool! although, i'm planning to move to 12.04 asap
07:56
oh great! so if users don't like Unity, they can always chose something their more familiar with. that's great
07:57
<trubbor>
I've only had luck with Unity 2D so far - haven't loaded Gnome
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07:58
<jimjimovich>
I'm really thinking I'll go the mostly FAT client route this time. Most of our hardware is good enough for that, and if a client isn't, we'll go to thin mode. Dang, I'm getting excited :)
07:59
do I still need to Ubuntu alternate installer to install LTSP?
07:59
the instructions on the wiki are very outdated
08:00
<trubbor>
So I just watched the SpaceX launch on NasaTV - and most of the control rooms - don't look like control rooms anymore - they look like rooms with tables with Dual-monitor Thin Clients! - I used the Alternate CD
08:01
<alkisg>
Both the alternate CD and the desktop CD work just fine for LTSP installation
08:02
<jimjimovich>
alkisg: if I follow my 10.04 instructions, will it be mostly the same?
08:02
also, does anyone know of changes to printing or scanning since 10.04?
08:02
<alkisg>
...without seeing them, I can only say "I guess so" :)
08:03
<jimjimovich>
just the stuff i can find online is from 8.04 :)
08:07
<trubbor>
jimjimovich: You didn't have Unity in 10.04. That's one thing different (just getting to the print/scan GUI's) - but in my opinion printing / scanning is very easy now
08:08
<jimjimovich>
okay. scanning form a client required some messing with config files before.
08:09
<trubbor>
I'm printing / scanning over the network - so that in itself might be easier. I'm using a Canon Pixma MX870 - and had to make no config changes
08:10
<jimjimovich>
nice!
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10:17
<Hyperbyte>
Having some trouble with 12.04 and Plantronics headsets. This is the whole Xorg log file from my client: http://dev.hfive.nl/Xorg.7.log If I read this correctly, the Plantronics DA45 crashes on the evdev module.
10:18
Is it possible to disable the evdev module for this device only? I wouldn't mind not being able to press the buttons, as long as I can use the audio device.
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10:53
<andygraybeal>
wake up wake up wake up
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10:56
<andygraybeal>
Trixboxer, trixy!!!!
10:57
good morning
10:57* muppis pulls blanket back over ears.. Yet another 10 min, please.
10:57
<andygraybeal>
muppis!!!!!! i saw you. no yawning!
10:57
<muppis>
Ok, I'
10:57
Ok, I've really been up 7 hrs already.
10:57
<andygraybeal>
hahahaha
10:57
faker
10:58
<muppis>
Bad one.
10:58
<elias_a>
No no, it's time for afternoon nap.
10:58
<andygraybeal>
i been up since 4.30am it's going on 7am :)
10:58
elias_a, nice :)
10:58
elias_a, my favorite.
10:58
<elias_a>
actually I'm waiting at the hospital to see the doc.
10:58
<muppis>
Time for second coffeebreak after lunch.
10:59
<elias_a>
45 minutes late now...
10:59
<muppis>
elias_a, as usual.
10:59
<elias_a>
Yep.
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11:00
<Trixboxer>
andygraybeal: Hi Andy
11:00
GM :)
11:01
<elias_a>
On the other hand, as my other hand (left) is in a cast, it's all the same to sit and chat here.
11:01
<andygraybeal>
hi hi hi :)))
11:02
omg.. a cast.. bro.. that so sucks.
11:02
that happened to me last year!!!!
11:03
<muppis>
Never had a cast.. Maybe I've been lucky.
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11:04
<elias_a>
andygraybeal: I am lucky. Only a broken finger.
11:05
It had to operated, though.
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11:06
<andygraybeal>
elias_a, yea, i hope you get well soon. it made me soo depressed. i got soo depressed i stopped eating my pain pills and hated myself.
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11:07
<elias_a>
andygraybeal: No troubles, mate! I'm getting rid of the cast today.
11:07
<andygraybeal>
nice good work then.
11:08
i have some metal in my arm now, on both bones! TSA watch out, i'm getting 'anal'yzed for sure!
11:08
i'm never flying, ever.
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12:09
<andygraybeal>
all is good in ltsp land :) no one is having troubles!
12:11
<Hyperbyte>
andygraybeal, speak for yourself. :P
12:11
<andygraybeal>
hahahaha :)
12:11
morning hyper
12:11
<Hyperbyte>
Although I did fix the Ubuntu 12.04 crash with Plantronics headset.
12:12
Xorg was crashing, because of the input module for the buttons of the headsets...
12:12
<andygraybeal>
oh wow, yoru running 12.04 with LTSP?????
12:12
<Hyperbyte>
Once I disabled that, the audio portion of the headsets still works.
12:12
<andygraybeal>
Hyperbyte, nice.
12:12
<Hyperbyte>
andygraybeal, yes, in production even. It's casuing me big headaches, but I seem to be able to slowly remedy everything it throws at me.
12:12
<andygraybeal>
i like plantronics, i used to live near their headquarters or one of there plants or smoething.
12:12
Hyperbyte, that is super-rad bro. are oyu running it in 'gnome-fallback' ?
12:12
or how are you accomplishing this?
12:13
i'm going to wait until alkisg says it's safe to run :)))
12:16
<Hyperbyte>
andygraybeal, waiting is a good idea. Although if you have a basic setup it might be doable.
12:16
<andygraybeal>
i'm looking forward to testing zentyal's ltsp interface!!!! it will be easier for my team to manage!
12:16
yea, my setup is pretty basic.
12:17
<Hyperbyte>
I am using gnome-fallback, because I have non-compositing hardware.
12:17
<andygraybeal>
yea, i have hardware that will handle it.. but i don't want to use it!! i'm afraid my people will freak the eff out.
12:17
<Hyperbyte>
Heheh
12:18
<andygraybeal>
hopefully gnome3 isn't that different from the gnome i got now. i use 12.04 on my laptop and i love it!!!
12:18
so i'm not hating on ubuntu
12:18
but i'm afraid that my users will be like.. omg omg omg! i hate you andy.
12:20
<Hyperbyte>
Wel, gnome-fallback is basically Gnome 2, from a user's point of view.
12:21
<andygraybeal>
awesome, this is good news.
12:21
<muppis>
No wonder why I like it..
12:24
<Hyperbyte>
muppis, :P
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13:26
<vmlintu>
highvoltage: http://www.opinsys.fi/en/what-opinsys-does
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13:29
<highvoltage>
vmlintu: nice! thanks for the link!
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13:31
<vmlintu>
highvoltage: took a while, but I hope it helps
13:31
highvoltage: I wrote also a little bit background info about the Finnish school system here: http://www.opinsys.fi/en/finland-school-system-ict
13:32
Some of the things probably don't make much sense if you think in US terms
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13:34
<vmlintu>
E.g. nobody does any testing software here as there are no standardised tests
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14:06
<highvoltage>
vmlintu: heh, I keep reading another paragraph or two and then get interrupted
14:06
(monday mornings at work is crazy- well, it's tuesday but yesterday was a public holiday)
14:07
<vmlintu>
sounds like my days.. never time to concentrate on anything
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15:33
<bieb>
Is there a best order to setup LTSP? example.. I want to run Firefox local, I need to add the server to Active Directory (using Likewise on this), install Codeweavers Crossover Office to install MS office for the students, change login splash screen, and make sure all thin clients use the old desktop not Unity (I have installed gnome-session-fallback).. so if there is a proper order or recommended order that would be great
15:35
<muppis>
You can do that in that order which you mentioned.
15:35
<bieb>
ok... wasnt sure if one thing would step on another..
15:35
<||cw>
bieb: I don't think any of those have any interdependencies, except maybe join AD. that should be done before any users get logged in
15:36
<bieb>
||cw: I was thinking of AD first..
15:37
<||cw>
are there any docs/write-up on how and when graphics processing gets offloaded to clients? I recall some conversation about it here in the past, looking for something I can send to someone else for general education
15:39
<bieb>
The 12.04 install is kinda weird.. I installed to a server with a 19" monitor.. when I look at the display settings it sees the display as a laptop display
15:40
<||cw>
bieb: that all depends on how the video card/driver presents it
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15:40
<bieb>
||cw: hmmm odd since I did an install on a server that was running 10.04 ltsp.. and it showed correctly there
15:41
<||cw>
so the driver got changed...
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15:42
<bieb>
ahh
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15:45
<||cw>
with dvi and hdmi, lcd screens are almost the same as laptops anyway
15:45
some even allow the video card to control the backlight
15:48
<bieb>
its vga connection
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15:58
<jordanm>
is it normal for a clients / to be / of the server and not the root for the chroot tree?
15:59
<||cw>
jordanm: not by default, no
16:00
<Hyperbyte>
jordanm, how did you determine this?
16:00
<||cw>
unless you mean once a client is logged in, the user will be logged into the server
16:00
<jordanm>
Hyperbyte: I can see the /opt/ltsp/i386 directory from the client, and I tested with editing files and see what changes I could see from the client
16:01
<||cw>
so a users / is the servers /, but a client, the hardware, is not
16:01
<jordanm>
so the chroot is only used to get the server bootstraped and the DM started up?
16:01
<||cw>
yes, and for localapps
16:03
<jordanm>
||cw: ok, I see, so bascially the thin client *is* running in the chroot, but its connecting to X remotely to the server itself
16:04
<||cw>
yes
16:08
<jordanm>
now to figure out why lightdm is not using PAM
16:15
<bieb>
||cw: what should I look up to fix the display issue from laptop to regular VGA?
16:15
I looked up display driver.. but there is a butt load of links..
16:15
<jordanm>
does something special usually need to be done for pam_limits to be used?
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16:28
<||cw>
bieb: why is it a problem?
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16:29
<bieb>
||cw: hmm.. good question.. I just didnt know if it would cause issues
16:29
<||cw>
I don't see why it would
16:30
<bieb>
||cw: ok.. I will stop worrying about that.. and move on to the next item..
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19:26
<vagrantc>
alkisg: so ltsp-update-sshkeys is incompatible with older chroots ... in that it leaves out the hostname.
19:27
er, leaves out the ip address
19:27
i think we should also do "-o CheckHostIP=no" by default, if we're switching to hostname only.
19:27
<alkisg>
vagrantc: well, it shouldn't be hard for the user to set LDM_SERVER=server in lts.conf
19:27
(for older chroots)
19:27
Sure, sounds good
19:28
<vagrantc>
alkisg: it's slightly harder for non-default servers.
19:28
but i guess they could add /etc/ltsp/ssh_known_hosts.* with ip address entries
19:28
if they really wanted
19:29
<alkisg>
Or they could add the hostnames in $chroot/etc/ltsp.hosts?
19:29
<vagrantc>
yes, either.
19:30
again, this is a relatively corner-case ... typically we'd expect the server and chroot to be running the same environment.
19:31
<highvoltage>
actually on edubuntu 64bit installs we ship a 32bit ltsp environment by default
19:31* highvoltage is just picking up the end of this conversation (fwiw)
19:32
<vagrantc>
highvoltage: but it's the same OS version
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19:33
<highvoltage>
ah right
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20:31
<bieb>
I have 12.04 installed.. I just installed likewise to connect to Active Directory.. I was able to connect to AD. I was trying to test logging into the server with my AD credentials.. I do not get the option to login as another user. When I select Switch accounts.. the only 2 I can login under is Guest Session and the default user I set when doing the 12.04 install..
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20:35
<dead_inside>
so you can log in using your AD un/pass but you can not switch users?
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20:37
<bieb>
dead_inside: I can only logon to the server with the default user from installation and guest session.. I dont have a login box to domain\user to connect to AD
20:39
<dead_inside>
this isn't really ltsp issue, you first need to be able to actually connect linux and active directory. once you get linux to agree with active directory then ltsp will just work
20:40
like if you took a 12.04 server, fresh without ltsp, could you get active directory login working?
20:40
<bieb>
it is connected to active directory.. I was able to joing the domain with the server
20:40
<dead_inside>
so you can ssh to the server using your active directory username and password?
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20:41
<bieb>
dead_inside: I will have to check that..
20:42
<dead_inside>
if you can, then yes this is the right channel for you and ltsp might be the issue. if you can not then active directory is still not authenticating your server
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20:46
<bieb>
dead_inside: what is correct ssh syntax for that?? ssh -l domain
20:46
damnit
20:46
ssh -l domain
20:46
ok frack.. cant type
20:47
ssh -l domain\user server
21:08
<dead_inside>
sorry i was afk
21:08
<bieb>
dead_inside:
21:08
no prob
21:08
<dead_inside>
and honestly bieb i dont know, i have never played with active directory
21:08
i just know ltsp and ldap
21:09
<bieb>
I am able to ssh to the server.. I can do everything AD.. except.. no way to login to server with AD credentials
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21:18
<dead_inside>
i dont know how, but if you can get it so that you can ssh to the server using your active directory credentials then ltsp should work. ltsp uses ssh
21:18
i really wish i could be more help then that
21:19
<bieb>
dead_inside: thanks.. I will keep looking
21:19
<dead_inside>
np bud, hope for the best for u
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