IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 16 May 2019   (all times are UTC)

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04:07
<alkisg>
...and morning all :D
04:51
Adding a new image now involves these 2 lines in boot.ipxe:
04:51
(in menu): item tara-cinnamon tara-cinnamon
04:51
(and the jump tag): :tara-cinnamon
04:51
The loading command then is the same for any image name: set cmdline root=/dev/nfs nfsroot=${srv}:/srv/ltsp/${img} loop.max_part=9
04:52
Variables make things so much easier! Why were we using syslinux for so long!
04:52
No need to configure/restart nbd, no need to change anything in dnsmasq...!
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05:20
<quinox>
sweet
05:23
<alkisg>
vagrantc: I'm thinking to stop using arch-based names (i386/amd64) and switch to codenames. E.g. if a VM or chroot is named "buster", we'll use that for TFTP too. And for chrootless we can either demand a name parameter or default to the codename as read from /etc/os-release.
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06:10
<alkisg>
bcg: hi, could you tell me the kernel cmdline of a fedora/rhel ltsp client? I'm testing "squashfs image over NFS" on dracut, but it doesn't like this much: root=/dev/nfs nfsroot=ip:/path (and then a dracut ltsp hook will mount -o loop /sysroot/image /sysroot)
06:15
<bcg>
ltsp/x86_64/pxelinux.cfg/default: APPEND initrd=initramfs-ltsp.img init=/sbin/init-ltsp selinux=0 rw root=dhcp ip=eth0:dhcp net.ifnames=0 rd.net.timeout.carrier=20
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06:21
<alkisg>
bcg: thanks; I did manage to boot fedora30 over nfs+squashfs file, but manually, by typing my script in the rd.break=pre-pivot stage
06:21
I used the same cmdline as the other distros: root=/dev/nfs nfsroot=ip:path; but I also had to symlink /dev/nfs to /sysroot manually
06:22
So I think that a dracut ltsp hook can do all that. It'll be great to use the same default cmdline across all distros.
06:24
OK since it's doable, and I'm not familiar with dracut, I'll leave that hook implementation either for you or for after GSoC etc, we'll manage. At this point I basically wanted to verify that this default can work in all distros.
06:49
<bcg>
with root=dhcp you can specify nfs path in dhcpd.conf. for my use cases it's better, everything in one file.
06:51
<alkisg>
bcg: your case doesn't work for proxydhcp, which is the most common case, AND you still need to modify your pxe configuration to pass kernel parameters,
06:51
while, by putting everything in boot.ipxe, it's again everything in a single file, AND the previous things work
06:51
And it works cross-distro too
06:51
It's a win-win
06:53
(and it supports automatic redirection to grub for loading 32bit kernels under 64bit uefi clients and it supports menus and it easily supports multiple kernels and images a lot of other use cases that dhcp.conf doesn't)
06:54* vagrantc notices alkisg's promotion to head of marketing for ipxe
06:54
<alkisg>
:D
06:55
What can I say, I love $variables!
06:55
<vagrantc>
it does appear to fix a lot into one place
06:55
<alkisg>
vagrantc: xenial booted fine; stretch has a glitch; do we care for it?
06:56
buster boots fine (still talking about nfs+ext4 image, stock vm without nbd-client or ltsp code)
06:56
<vagrantc>
alkisg: what sort of glitch on stretch?
06:56
<alkisg>
It might be related to the nfs kernel issues with overlay; maybe ubuntu backported some fix there and debian didn't
06:56
<vagrantc>
if it's easy, fix it, if it's hard ... can't backport everything :)
06:56
<alkisg>
It complains it can't find /root/sbin/init, while it's there
06:57
<vagrantc>
huh
06:57
yeah, i found overlay fs to be not quite workable with NFS
06:57
<alkisg>
That's what we'll default to now though!
06:57
<vagrantc>
like many things, haven't tried in a while
06:57
i thought you were doing an image over NFS ?
06:57
that's a good deal different.
06:58
<alkisg>
And of course an overlay on top of that, how else
06:58
So it's still overlay over nfs; although it's a loop mounted image over nfs, which should be faster due to only needing 1 file over nfs
06:58
<vagrantc>
yeah
06:58
<alkisg>
Not a lot of metadata involved
06:59
OK at this point I think I'll go on, and come back for stretch + fedora in the end, if I have enough time
07:03
Hehe, all this work about getting the cmdline from the chroots, with update-kernels and pxelinux.cfg, and it was possible to use the same cmdline for all distros all along :D
07:05
<vagrantc>
well, it certainly wasn't always possible
07:06
<alkisg>
Didn't aufs work with nfs?
07:06
The root=/dev/nfs parameter is documented in the kernel, I think it worked in a cross-distro manner since ages
07:08
<vagrantc>
ipxe was first uploaded to Debian in 2011 ... and wasn't a very old project at the time
07:08
<alkisg>
Oh this isn't related to ipxe
07:08
<vagrantc>
and probably didn't have all those features
07:08
<alkisg>
It's doable from any loader
07:08
<vagrantc>
root=/dev/nfs didn't work in initramfs-tools all along
07:09
i made a bunch of patches to initramfs-tools to get it to work well
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07:48
<alkisg>
stretch had this issue: initramfs-tools (0.122) unstable; urgency=medium . * [4fa3fe4] init: Validate the real init after devtmpfs is mounted under the real root (Closes: #811479)
07:49
Hmm maybe not, it's supposed to have 0.130 :/
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08:01
<vagrantc>
i seem to recall that issue being ping-pong-ed a few times.
08:10
<alkisg>
vagrantc: well, if I put a `mount --bind /dev /root/dev` command, it works fine, so it's that issue again
08:11
I don't think it's worth the effort to special-case stretch and apply that work around in the ltsp code though; if someone needs stretch he'd have to solve that via initramfs-tools
08:11* alkisg resists the temptation to try jessie
08:12
<alkisg>
So stretch, buster, xenial, bionic etc all work fine, and fedora30 with the commands ran manually. I'll write some code to backport nfs+imagefile to ltsp5, so that people here can test it.
08:16
<vagrantc>
alkisg: there already was support for ltsploop and all that in initramfs-tools hooks for ltsp
08:18
<alkisg>
vagrantc: nice, so your code there may be able to handle it without ltsp5 users needing any new code. I'll try it in the afternoon.
08:19
# Also needs a dummy /opt/ltsp/images/sbin/init-ltsp to be an executable file # to work around a bug/feature in initramfs-tools's nfs mount checks... ?
08:20
vagrantc: doesn't the loop mounting happen before the initramfs-tools validates init?
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08:34
<vagrantc>
yeah
08:35
alkisg: er, no ... the problem was it mounts the NFS directory as the rootfs, and then we re-mount the loop device later
08:35
it's in the initramfs-tools hooks in ltsp
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10:21
<alkisg>
vagrantc: if the remounting is done at nfs-bottom, and init validation happens after that, I don't see why a dummy file is needed
10:21
I didn't need it in any of the VMs I tried
10:21
(with my code; I haven't tested ltsploop)
10:22
<vagrantc>
your code is clearly better, then :)
10:22
<alkisg>
No no I don't think so
10:22
I'm thinking maybe you tested in wheezy or jessie or something,
10:22
and things have been fixed since then
10:22
<vagrantc>
it was probably stretch while it was still in development
10:23
it was summer of 2015
10:23
<alkisg>
Gotcha. I'll test your code on a 18.04 lab tomorrow and report back.
10:23
(it's getting more and more difficult for me to test ltsp5; I modified my office setup too much!)
10:24
<vagrantc>
heh
10:24
and when you get something working cleaner, it's hard to go back...
10:24
<alkisg>
Right, even if nfs is a bit slower now, I won't switch my office back to nbd
10:25
This new setup allows me to netboot all my VMs without messing with nbd-server each time
10:25
<vagrantc>
yay.
10:26
<alkisg>
You were wise to endorse nfs for so long; you just didn't push us enough for the loopback thing :D
10:30
<vagrantc>
i tried it out of desperation because i couldn't get NFS to work at the time and it seemed easier to go along with what everyone else was doing... :/
10:31
so it was only a quick hack proof of concept
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13:44
<alkisg>
vagrantc: your ltsploop code seems to work fine; I didn't need to create a fake init
13:45
mwalters, Hyperbyte, so here's the quick how to, for NFS+ltsploop:
13:45
1) apt install nfs-kernel-server; ltsp-config nfs ==> exports /opt/ltsp over nfs
13:46
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i might have nudged them to fix that code
13:46
<alkisg>
2) pxelinux.cfg/default: change cmdline from nbd to: root=/dev/nfs nfsroot=${srv}:/opt/ltsp/images ltsploop=/${img}.img
13:47
replace ${srv} with your server ip, and ${img} with your image name, e.g. amd64
13:47
3) Reboot, test, report back; the hope is that it's a bit *faster* and a lot more stable
13:47
(or anyone else that wants to test) ^
13:48
You can also test rebooting the server; as long as the client hasn't logged in yet, and is only using nfs and not sshfs or nbd swap, it should continue normally
13:49* alkisg loves it when he discovers bugs that vagrantc has solved years ago so no debian-based distro is affected anymore :D
13:50
<alkisg>
vagrantc: have you ever used netconsole? Wouldn't it be better for debugging ltsp client crashes, than remote syslog?
13:52
<vagrantc>
i think you need to have network drivers compiled in
13:53
<alkisg>
Hmm, I'll give it a test; I hope it works when they're loaded as modules too
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14:14
<mwalters>
lets see who is around today ;)
14:16
alright, no one at the one office
14:16
<alkisg>
;)
14:17
<mwalters>
been getting called over to the day school we operate
14:17
casting is broken, the internet is broken, everything is broken
14:17
they're trying to watch netflix and its not working
14:17
:|
14:18
<alkisg>
I went to a school to fix the internet too, they had problems for a week now. It turned out that a teacher removed an ethernet cable from a pc, put it to his laptop, and when he finished...
14:18
...he put it to the switch, creating a loop
14:18
<mwalters>
gahahahahaha
14:18
I worked for a division here, with a single broadcast domain between 7 buildings/schools
14:19
we had a fiber lan between all of them... at least once a month someone looped a switch and brought down the entire network
14:19
<alkisg>
I wonder, if I had ran wireshark or something, would I have seen ethernet messages notifying about the loop?
14:19
<mwalters>
each school came back to a central location, so we'd just unplug the media converters one by one until the network stopped storming and then tell them to go find it ;)
14:20
I was NOT the network admin there ;)
14:20
<alkisg>
:)
14:20
<mwalters>
I think cisco switches have loop protection at least
14:20
at least our sg300s have a checkbox for it... no idea if it works
14:21
I think I have like... 3 "dumb switches" throughout our entire org, tho
14:21
<vagrantc>
there's some protocol to detect loops like that and isolate other switches
14:21
or even the looped ports
14:21
had some switches with that enabled ... but don't chain them together!
14:22
<mwalters>
pxelinux.cfg/default will get overwritten by update-kernels?
14:23
<alkisg>
vagrantc: how would I install a newer kernel in jessie? 3.16 doesn't have overlay. I think I can do this: apt install linux-image-4.9-686-pae; but in ubuntu I don't specify a version, it's like apt install linux-generic-hwe; does putting 4.9 there make sense?
14:23
mwalters: indeed; a longer process is needed to make sure that the cmdline persists
14:24
<mwalters>
I have a bunch of entires, presumably because I haven't been cleaning things up... I guess I want to modify the first one? `label ltsp-NBD`?
14:24
<alkisg>
mwalters: yes; ltsp currently creates entries for all kernels, but only the first one is used by default
14:25
Paste the final cmdline here, to make sure it's right
14:25
<mwalters>
oh, I use a chroot, is that an issue?
14:25
<alkisg>
Nope
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14:26
<mwalters>
append ro initrd=initrd.img-4.15.0-48-generic init=/sbin/init-ltsp forcepae root=/dev/nfs nfsroot=10.0.0.3:/opt/ltsp/images ltsploop=amd64.img
14:26
<alkisg>
I think ltsploop=amd64.img works, but to be safe, make it ltsploop=/amd64.img
14:29
<mwalters>
read: connection refused
14:29
<alkisg>
mwalters: did you install nfs-kernel-server etc?
14:29
<mwalters>
yes
14:30
<alkisg>
What's the output of this, on the server? showmount -e
14:30
<mwalters>
/opt/ltsp *
14:30
<alkisg>
Hmm, can I see with vnc?
14:30
!vnc-dide
14:30
<ltsp>
vnc-dide: To share your screen with me, run this: sudo apt-get --yes install x11vnc; x11vnc -connect srv1-dide.ioa.sch.gr - this is a reverse connection, it doesn't need port forwarding etc.
14:31
<mwalters>
yah one sec
14:31
<alkisg>
ty
14:33
<mwalters>
sorry
14:33
<alkisg>
mwalters: ok you fix it :P
14:33
<mwalters>
I'm a moron
14:33
too many subnets
14:33
<alkisg>
(like you say to the teachers ;P)
14:33
<mwalters>
wrong site
14:33
lol\
14:34
one day... we'll have enough bandwidth for a single server ;)
14:35
or I'll have the mental bandwidth to keep it all straight
14:35
booted and logged in just fine
14:36
...when I entered the correct IP
14:36
<alkisg>
mwalters: great, so, the idea is to let all clients use that new method
14:36
And check if it's more stable etc, so that we switch the default to that
14:36
<mwalters>
yeah, gonna try it here with ap hysical client
14:37
that office only ever has like... 2 people in it
14:37
and zero at the moment
14:37
I'll boot all the local clients off tonight and force them to use it
14:40
<alkisg>
Great, ty for testing
14:41
<mwalters>
do I need to do anything funky for uefi clients?
14:41
<alkisg>
If you already had them working, they should continue to
14:42
<mwalters>
but they'll continue to use nbd, won't they?
14:42
<alkisg>
Well it depends on how you're booting them
14:42
<mwalters>
I need to modify the cmd line there
14:42
<alkisg>
If you're booting them normally, they'll use nfs, like all of them
14:42
<mwalters>
they're using grub
14:42
<alkisg>
If you have a local kernel + grub installed, then yeah you'd need to update it there
14:43
<mwalters>
time for more testing
14:43
lets see how badly I can break this ;)
14:44
so, I have my "root" param on the kernel entry, not the initrd entry... does it matter?
14:44
(for grub)
14:46
<alkisg>
mwalters: I don't think the cmdline (root etc) ever goes to the initrd entry
14:46
I think it always goes with the kernel entry; or in an additional append line in pxelinux
14:46
<vagrantc>
alkisg: you'd need to have a source of packages for jessie, and then you would probably install linux-image-X.Y.Z-N-VARIANT or just install the appropriate linux-image-VARIANT/CODENAME
14:47
the backport kernels get really long names
14:47
<mwalters>
that makes sense
14:47
<alkisg>
vagrantc: I went ahead and installed it; it's almost working; but chocking with ext4 read errors; possibly hit nfs/overlay issues
14:48
<mwalters>
grub client booted fine
14:49
https://termbin.com/iy2y <--- a known good grub.cfg for reference
14:50
it definitely "feels" faster
14:51
<alkisg>
I think it's cached better on the client side
14:51
<mwalters>
desktop load, application time to launch, etc etc
14:51
hard to tell, this client is sitting on the same switch as an HD camera DVR too =/
14:52
but yeah, I'll leave it up here and let you know if it blows up ;)
14:52
<alkisg>
Great
14:52
<mwalters>
We have a mix a uefi/grub and pxeclients as well
14:53
the majority of our workload is in chrome, though... so not sure we'll be the best stress testers
14:53
<alkisg>
web surfing is one of the most demanding tasks nowadays, so it's fine
14:54
<mwalters>
I can't wait for web assembly
14:54
to be widely adopted ;)
14:55
<alkisg>
And then CPUs will get hardware acceleration for that
14:56
And then new CPUs will only use web assembly instruction set
14:56
And we'll rediscover the 1970's :D
14:59
<mwalters>
I mean, we've already rediscovered lisp!
15:00
<alkisg>
and now ltsp!
15:00
<mwalters>
lolol
15:00
I really like the idea of lisp/clojure...
15:00
...but... I need to like... get stuff done today ;)
15:05* vagrantc skipped sleeping in order to package a chain of guile dependencies today
15:07
<vagrantc>
not really a *good* idea....
15:07
but so close
15:11* alkisg was wondering if vagrant was in a different timezone than usual
15:11
<alkisg>
OK, jessie booted too; it needed an initramfs-tools hack as well as kernel 4.9
15:13
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i stepped outside of time
15:13
had to get into the right mindspace to churn through build dependencies on a language with a few too many parens
15:14* alkisg is using hot tsipouro + honey for that
15:14
<alkisg>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakomelo
15:18
<mwalters>
oh this sounds delicious
15:19
I haven't been able to find much Eastern European/Mediteranian foods/drinks since moving away from the North Eastern US =/
15:20
We had one "Greek" restaraunt close by, but it closed :(
15:24
The only saving grace is my Romanian friend who makes homemade plum wine ;)
15:25
tested a couple clients that aren't getting bombarded by this IP camera traffic... they definitely seem faster
15:26
alkisg: so this just mounts the root fs over nfs, right? Home dirs still use nbd?
15:26
<alkisg>
mwalters: originally we have: nbd for /, and sshfs for /home
15:26
and nbd for swap
15:27
With the change we have: nfs for /, sshfs for /home, and nbd for swap
15:27
<mwalters>
eer, yeah, that ;)
15:27
ok cool... yeah, "insecure" nfs seems perfectly fine for /
15:27
<alkisg>
nbd is insecure too; the root file system is not encrypted in any of the ltsp cases in all those years
15:28
Only /home is encrypted with sshfs, and that doesn't change now
15:28
<mwalters>
good to know, thanks
15:31
client recovers after server reboot too, this is nice
15:31
it was hard frozen while the server restarted, but came right back to life once the server was back up
15:31
<alkisg>
But note that sshfs might be disconnected after server reboot, so that will only work on login screen, not on session
15:31
<mwalters>
looks like it survived in this case
15:32
oh, nope
15:32
just cached lists
15:32
<alkisg>
If you switch /home to *insecure* nfs, then this will work too
15:33
I.e. from sshfs to nfs
15:33
But that's not what we want to test now :)
15:33
<mwalters>
yeah, I don't think that'll fly here ;)
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16:33
<alkisg>
vagrantc: with NFS, what happens if someone runs ltsp-update-image and there are clients connected?
16:35
<vagrantc>
depends on the nature of the image ...
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16:35
<vagrantc>
if it's a delete-and-replace, it should work fine, as the inode should be held open
16:35
if it changes the live filesystem (e.g. ext4) ... that is not good.
16:36
<alkisg>
vagrantc: well, ltsp-update-image completely deletes the old ext4 or squashfs image there and replaces it
16:36
It doesn't open it and change its contents
16:37
Ehm, sure, if someone has vbox running with the .vmdk file open, AND the clients running, that 's not good
16:38
but generally people will be exporting to squashfs, not using vms directly
16:38
So if I understood you correctly, we're good :)
16:38
<mwalters>
I can tell you in a second ;)
16:39
<vagrantc>
right
16:39
i definitely experiemented with it a bit back when i was using ext2 images
16:40
<alkisg>
mwalters: try to e.g. change a letter in /etc/adduser.conf in the chroot, run ltsp-update-image, THEN cat /etc/adduser.conf on the client without rebooting it, it should still show the old one
16:40
Don't cat before, to avoid caching
16:41
<mwalters>
getting rabbitholed... no dns from chroot anymore
16:42
probably more to do with my IPA deployment
16:45
I took a hammer to resolv.conf and I'm updating now ;)
16:47
the client seemed to survive the image update process
16:48
however ldm is not prompting me to reboot
16:48
(after logging out)
16:49
<alkisg>
that ldm prompt is no longer valid
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19:06
<xdrazen>
hi there, how is the development right now? i am back from kinda 3 years out
19:08
<vagrantc>
alkisg has been busy reinventing LTSP almost from scratch
19:08
if you had asked just 3 months ago, i would say development was looking kind of bleak
19:08
now i'm excited about the possibilities :)
19:09
<xdrazen>
alkisg sounds me... really sounds me
19:11
***before trying to do implements LTSP... right now the office where i work, uses windows and that, and i do not know why the boss wants to "spy" the pcs of the employees, right now, we are using tightvnc, but the screen goes blank, so it is a bit strange; we will use ultravnc and there it does not feel so bad
19:12
*** what i am asking is if, with LTSP and diskless workstations, is possible to that other user or even the admin could see what the clients are doing
19:23
<alkisg>
!epoptes
19:23
<ltsp>
epoptes: Epoptes is a computer lab administration and monitoring tool. It works on Ubuntu and Debian based labs with LTSP or non-LTSP servers, thin and fat clients, standalone workstations, NX clients etc. More info: http://www.epoptes.org
19:23
<alkisg>
xdrazen: we've developed that one for ltsp ^
19:26
<xdrazen>
<alkisg> your name... i remember it
19:26
**nick
19:27
OMFG then epoptes is what i was looking for, thank you very much. Now i have to make work office 2010 in wine
19:28
<mwalters>
I always struggle with the boss who wants to spy... if you don't trust your employees, why did you hire them :(
19:31
<xdrazen>
i am not even agree, but in this $#%#$ country, if you say that you will not do something, always is anyelse more that will do the same for less money... ; anyways i think it deppends more about paranoia or kinda
19:35
well, see you later, nice to see you again. Long live LTSP!
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