IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 30 January 2019   (all times are UTC)

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13:51
<JuJUBee>
in /opt/ltsp/images I see 2 one ends in .old and both same size. I just tried to update-image and ran out of space. Can I remove the .old now without any ill effects?
13:59
<alkisg>
Yes, see the man page
14:00
It's an automatic backup, revertable with -r
14:13
<||cw>
but note if any clients haven't been rebooted they'll still have a lock on the inodes and the space will not be freed until they reboot
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16:37
<alkisg>
Anyone with ipv6 knowledge? (1) Does each client automatically get an ipv6 address, even when there's no dhcp6 server?
16:37
And(2), can the ltsp server get a "static" ipv6 address, maybe related to its mac address, that clients could use to contact it, even when they didn't know its ipv4 address?
16:37
(trying to solve the proxydhcp/ipappend 3 issue, where the clients, in the initramfs, can't contact the server unless its ip is passed in the kernel cmdline)
16:41
<quinox>
I have setup IPv6 at my work
16:41
every client gets multiple IPv6 addresses even without a DHCP router present
16:42
<alkisg>
Are they static? E.g. if you move a computer to another ipv6 network, will it have the same address?
16:42
<quinox>
DHCP is a bit of a mess, I settled on SLAAC
16:43
<alkisg>
I read that it's somehow related to the client mac address, but I didn't yet read if it's completely static, independed of the network id...
16:43
<quinox>
with SLAAC every PC figures the last half of the IP address for itself, and the first half is gathered from the DHCP server
16:43
but there are no leases like with IPv4
16:43
<alkisg>
...the actual question is, if I tell the clients the server mac address, will they be able to calculate its ipv6 ip...
16:44
OK, that sounds workable; the client will learn the "network id" from the slaac server, and the "client id" from the server itself...
16:45
Hopefully busybox has enough tools to set that up...
16:47
<quinox>
I'm happy to test things out my LAN
16:47
I set up IPv6 many years ago, it has been working great
16:49
<alkisg>
Wait no, I think what I remembered is "link-local" addresses, which are derived from mac addresses, not "slaac" addresses...
16:49* alkisg reads on...
16:50
<quinox>
IIRC link-local is only between hardware
16:50
the wire between devices
16:50
no arp to map Mac to IP
16:51
you talk to the router using the link-local address
16:53
<alkisg>
Ah, so it wouldn't allow client <=> switch <=> server ?
16:54
<quinox>
AFAIK no
16:54
<alkisg>
Hmm, it works in vbox
16:55
<quinox>
link-local addresses start with fe80, ping doesn't even accept an address like that
16:57
you can have multiple global addresses I think
16:57
one for LAN "global" and one for internet "global" maybe?
16:58
<alkisg>
$ ping6 -I enp2s0 fe80::5054:ff:fe25:e337
16:58
PING fe80::5054:ff:fe25:e337(fe80::5054:ff:fe25:e337) from fe80::a9ae:ebb8:f1bb:2677%enp2s0 enp2s0: 56 data bytes
16:59
<quinox>
I had to learn quite a bit to understand IPv6, it's quite different from IPv4
16:59
<alkisg>
I ping the VM client from the server...
16:59
Let me see if the client can wget from the server
16:59
If yes, problem solved :)
17:00
<quinox>
you are right, that also works for me when I try to ping between two physical servers
17:00
(between the same router)
17:01
the notation ping shows is valid, you can do 'ping6 fe80::a9ae:ebb8:f1bb:2677%enp2s0' as well
17:01
alright, because it's a link-local address you need to specify the link, otherwise ping doesn't know what to do
17:02
inet6 fe80::21a:a0ff:fe32:d86e prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x20<link>
17:02
ether 00:1a:a0:32:d8:6e txqueuelen 1000 (Ethernet)
17:03
<alkisg>
I didn't yet find how to do it in busybox wget
17:03
<quinox>
you can see the MAC address as part of the link-local address
17:07
Curl works with the '%iface' notation, wget refuses
17:07
<alkisg>
Yeah additionally php -S doesn't listen in ipv6 :D
17:08
<quinox>
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/wget/+bug/1566930
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17:10
<quinox>
if you try '[::0]'?
17:12
works for me
17:12
<alkisg>
...it worked but with a weird :3000 port
17:13
Unfortunately curl isn't available in stock initramfs, let me see if something can be done with wget...
17:13
<quinox>
php -S '[::0]:80' <-- works for me as well
17:14
<alkisg>
Just got that :D ! thanks
17:14
<quinox>
at nearly all places you'll have to wrap the IPv6 address in square brackets
17:15
<alkisg>
I wonder if I can put the address e.g. to /etc/hosts, to work around the wget issue
17:15
<quinox>
ah, nice trick... perhaps
17:16
(I'm now on wayland, the alt-tab behavior drives me nuts - why group all terminals together under "terminal" ?!)
17:18
<alkisg>
I think there's also Alt+`
17:18
To switch within a group
17:19
<mwalters>
I use a 68-key compact keyboard
17:19
alt+` is a pain ;)
17:19
<quinox>
at first glance it seems adding %enp1s0 renders the /etc/hosts entry invalid
17:20
I can't ping it if that's present, I can (fail to) ping it without
17:20
<alkisg>
curl --interface enp2s0 http://alkis6/file
17:20
That works for me
17:21
But wget doesn't have an --interface switch :(
17:21
(without the %enp2s0 in hosts)
17:22
The bug report says: "However, with the wget included in BusyBox v1.25.1, the same command is working! "
17:22
<quinox>
https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/174767/ipv6-zone-id-in-etc-hosts
17:22
<alkisg>
Meh. This is what we want, wget busybox... let's see...
17:23
You can test with "busybox wget parms"
17:24
Yey
17:24
Got it
17:25
I guess that even adds a bit of security, if the server is listening only on link-local addresses, it won't be accessible from outside
17:26
busybox wget http://[fe80::a9ae:ebb8:f1bb:2677%enp2s0]/file
17:26
<quinox>
the same goes if it's listening on its 192. or 10. address
17:27
<alkisg>
Yes but that's not really static, while the ipv6 address can be hardcoded
17:29
So to sum up, we can pass "ltsp.server_ipv6=fe80::a9ae:ebb8:f1bb:2677" in the kernel cmdline, and allow the client to discover the server from the initramfs even in proxy dhcp cases. Great!
17:29
No "IPAPPEND 3" hacks needed anymore :)
17:30
<quinox>
isn't that missing an interface?
17:31
<alkisg>
The interface name is the client one, the server doesn't know it
17:31
The client will use the one that got an ipv4 address
17:32
<quinox>
cool
17:32
<alkisg>
Thanks for helping quinox! :)
17:32
<quinox>
anytime
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17:39
<alkisg>
Eh, 2 `php -S` instances are needed to listen to 2 link-local addresses, but anyway, nbd that listens on 10809 is the same :)
17:40
<mwalters>
to be honest
17:40
sounds like a good time to apt remove php
17:40
;)
17:40
<alkisg>
Haha, why?
17:40
python -m SimpleHTTPServer => fails lots of times
17:40
php -S => I haven't seen it fail
17:41
<mwalters>
require('http').createServer((req, res) => res.end('hello')).listen(80)
17:41
there you go ;)
17:41
<alkisg>
What's that, ruby?
17:41
<mwalters>
javascript/node
17:41
<alkisg>
Yeah sure you go tell teachers how to install that from npm :P
17:41
<mwalters>
a really convoluted one liner... that actually works ;)
17:42
fair enough... "php, at least it's not perl" ;)
17:43
<alkisg>
If we wanted to help ltsp contributors... what would they prefer, php, python or nodejs/javascript, for server side scripting?
17:43
<mwalters>
I just have a terrible adversion to php... I've maintained waaaay too many legacy php apps
17:43
what's the usecase?
17:43
I think python is popular in higher ed
17:43
at least within the scientific community
17:43
nodejs/javascript is usually webapp hipsters
17:44
<alkisg>
Let's say that lts.conf gets transformed to https://server/config?phase=boot
17:44
So, if they want to edit the configuration sent to the client at that phase, they'd put some server-side code
17:44
That would parse some /etc/ltsp/lts.conf, or maybe do load - balancing based on server load, etc, usually simple things
17:45
<mwalters>
some sort of markup, yaml? would probably be better for the configs, then use whatever to serve the config to the clients?
17:45
<alkisg>
The user editable configs would be .ini or yaml or something, yes, but the code parsing those configs and transforming them into shell scripts for the client, would be... php? pyton?
17:45
I.e. that "whatever" that you said
17:46
Talking about ltsp programmers/contributors, not about users...
17:46
<mwalters>
gotcha
17:46
I think it's reasonable to expect either python2.7 or 3 to be on nearly every linux installation
17:47
(and I'm not really a python person)
17:47
<alkisg>
I don't trust its internal http server, and if we're going to use e.g. twisted, we might as well use php; i imagine more devs know php rather than twisted?
17:47
Epoptes is using python-twisted, it's fine; but it's a bigger dependency than php
17:47
<mwalters>
does django not use the built in http server?
17:48
no, it doesn't, does it
17:48
yeah, I get what you're saying
17:48
I was spoiled by node, which... well, you saw the one liner
17:49
<alkisg>
sudo apt install nodejs is simple enough; but I'm worried about how many devs will be able to contribute with server-side javascript code
17:49
Is server-side javascript common nowadays?
17:49
<mwalters>
node has terrible disk io
17:50
fairly
17:50
if you're only reading a couple files, it's probably OK
17:50
Node is/was pretty huge
17:50
I think netflix and airbnb use it extensively
17:51
A lot developers (myself included) switched to typescript because we finally saw the light
17:51
Then we got fed up with the convoluted stack and switched to go or rust ;)
17:54
It would be simple enough to set up http handlers w/ node, though
17:54
most of it is preference
17:55
you could use a compiled language like go and just distribute binaries
17:55
no runtime needed
17:56
go looks similar to C
17:56
some folks have issues with how it does error handling (i.e., it doesn't, do it yourself)
17:58
<alkisg>
(07:51:07 μμ) mwalters: A lot developers (myself included) switched to typescript because we finally saw the light => yeah I thought people were moving away from that nowadays
17:58
(07:54:11 μμ) mwalters: It would be simple enough to set up http handlers w/ node, though => can it be done with `apt install`, without using `npm install` i.e. without downloading things under /home/username?
17:58
(07:55:24 μμ) mwalters: you could use a compiled language like go and just distribute binaries => nah I really prefer interpreted languages for ltsp, makes testing much easier
17:59
I read a couple of articles on python vs php vs nodejs... I think all those would more or less fit...
18:00
<mwalters>
you can install node without npm, installing node will install npm, though
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18:01
<mwalters>
re: testing... the go debugger isn't bad, can't speak to rust, though
18:02
<alkisg>
Oh I mean, "let's change that `sed /a/b/` to `sed /a/c/` and see if it works... oh no I need to build it again, saving isn't enough...
18:02
<mwalters>
fair enough. Go compiles fairly quickly, though, even on lower end systems
18:02
<alkisg>
Compilation usually isn't enough, there's an installation step involved too
18:03
<mwalters>
to distribute, yes
18:03
<alkisg>
While with interpreted languages, testing can be done by editing directly /usr/share/script
18:03
<mwalters>
fair
18:03
looks like nodejs 8.10 is the version published for 18.04 right now
18:05
And yeah, node performance is probably fine for what I think you're trying to accomplish here... when I mentioned bad disk IO, my usecase was loading up like... 20 csv files with a million lines each and parsing them ;)
18:07
I was working on a logistics management system for a frieght company a couple years back, building up a system to analyze toll road fees against our route planning software to make sure drivers weren't abusing our toll transponder devices ;)
18:17
<alkisg>
vagrantc: what would you vote? If lts.conf was going to be replaced with https://server/config?phase=boot, would you prefer php, python or node.js for the server side scripting?
18:18
<vagrantc>
alkisg: personally, python
18:19
alkisg: node moves very quickly and i suspect it will be hard to maintain compatibility across multiple releases
18:19
<mwalters>
from personal experience, it really isn't
18:20
<vagrantc>
and php shouldn't be used for new projects, in my personal bias
18:20
<mwalters>
node 8.10, which is what ships with ubuntu 18.04 is an LTS release and will be maintained until april 2020
18:20
eer, october 2020
18:21
also, agree for the same reasons on php
18:21
I really think python is the way to go, though... simply because it's included out of the box in basically every distribution
18:21
even if SimpleHTTPServer isn't the way to go
18:22
I'm much more comfortable in node than python... but I don't recoil in horror at the thought of using it ;)
18:22
<vagrantc>
debian's current stable release has 4.8.2
18:22
for node
18:22
nodejs
18:23
<mwalters>
that's ancient
18:23
<vagrantc>
granted, debian's about to release a new version
18:23
<mwalters>
yeah, node4 has been out of maintenance for... a long time ;)
18:23
<vagrantc>
in process of upgrading to 10.15.0
18:24
so, like i said, node is fast-moving :P
18:24
<mwalters>
absolutely... I will say, I took an express app from node4 to 6 without having to change a single line of code, though
18:25
<vagrantc>
if it can't handle an LTS distro with a ~2 year release cycle ...
18:25
<mwalters>
The LTS releases of node will, though
18:25
<vagrantc>
let alone a 5 year release cycle
18:26
actually, the debian LTS release has nodejs 0.10.29
18:27
<mwalters>
but yeah, python is still probably the way to go
18:27
<vagrantc>
but i don't realistically even support the LTSP version in that old release anyways
18:27
<mwalters>
or... maybe perl ;)
18:27
just to make sure it's stable ;)
18:28
<vagrantc>
if for some reason python wasn't available, sure.
18:28
:)
18:40
<alkisg>
Python would be python-twisted, of course; and e.g. it took them years to support python3
18:40
While php has a much more active communite related to web programming
18:41
Python is great, but I'm not so sure it's mature for web programming
18:42
<mwalters>
p sure facebook is mostly python
18:42
<vagrantc>
there are other frameworks than python-twisted
18:42
<mwalters>
django has been around for years
18:42
<alkisg>
Well, unless we rely on some web server like apache/nginx/lighttpd, but I think that's too much overhead
18:42
<mwalters>
python absoutely is suited to web applications
18:42
oh, yeah... wsgi
18:42
<alkisg>
vagrantc: which one would you suggest?
18:43
<vagrantc>
django is the first that comes to mind, but it's a bit bare-bones
18:43
<mwalters>
django also doesn't include a "production" http server
18:43
at least the last time I used it
18:43
django would be plenty to do what you wanted I think... it comes with a router, controller, and templates... not sure what more you'd need
18:44
<alkisg>
Isn't django an overkill for an lts.conf replacement?
18:44
<mwalters>
there's also pylons, which is even more bare bonsed
18:44
absolutely
18:44
you just want to serve the config file over http?
18:44
<alkisg>
"Calculate" the config file and send it
18:44
Based on server networking params,maybe load, maybe xsessions...
18:44
<mwalters>
that'll be based upon some header information in a get request from the client?
18:45* vagrantc thinks a web server is overkill for an lts.conf replacement
18:45
<alkisg>
Yes, including some state to keep things safer
18:45
<mwalters>
state meaning session management?
18:45
and some sort of authentication?
18:46
<alkisg>
No
18:46
Let's say state = a uuid
18:46
You give it to the client at the initramfs stage
18:46
<mwalters>
to identify the client?
18:46
<alkisg>
And then the client uses it to request additional information
18:46
Yes
18:46
<mwalters>
gotcha
18:46
<alkisg>
So that you don't send LDM_PASSWORD etc to any client that asks for it
18:46
<mwalters>
;)
18:46
<alkisg>
So, only the initramfs initial stage is insecure, the rest are secure
18:47
<mwalters>
I mean, php requires a webserver still, doesn't it?
18:47
<alkisg>
php -S doens't
18:47
<mwalters>
(I haven't done any real php stuff since like... 3/4)
18:47
<alkisg>
It looked stable for such simple things here
18:47
Much more stable than python -m SimpleHTTPServer
18:48
<mwalters>
yeah, I mean the module docs say as such
18:48
s/such/much
18:48
I get where you're coming from... node would solve the http server issue, the http module is rock solid
18:48
I think "linux people" would prefer python
18:49
and I'm preferential given in the environment... but yeah, the lack of http server is an issue
18:49
I know nothing about `php -S`, but hate the language ;)
18:51
... HTTP::Server::Simple doesn't have the same big red warnings as python's...
19:00
<quinox>
I earn money with Django; it's fantastic, but seriously overkill for LTSP
19:00
<mwalters>
^^^
19:01
it also doesn't solve the http server issue
19:01
<quinox>
indeed, the built-in dev server isn't meant for anything more serious than developing
19:03
<mwalters>
maybe a python person can answer what "It only implements basic security checks" means: https://docs.python.org/2/library/simplehttpserver.html, because I find it really $^% vague
19:05
<quinox>
CSRF?
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19:07
<quinox>
it seems to do little, so not that much that could go wrong
19:08
<mwalters>
yeah, I can't imagine what "security checks" we couldn't do in the application itself
19:08
and maybe I'm not understanding how this works... but I'm used to creating a webserver and doing all the request and response handling in the code itself, not serving files
19:09
which may be part of my aversion to php these days
19:09* mwalters shrugs
19:09
<alkisg>
I'm not sure what that means, php handles the requests with code...
19:09
<mwalters>
I think the idea of having a webserver opens up some possibilities for client handling, which is cool
19:09
so it's not just html mixed iwth php anymore?
19:09
(again, last time i used PHP was back in version 2, 3 and 4)
19:10
<alkisg>
AFAIK it was always possible to do <?php and write plain php without html
19:10
And, if we're to send shell-sourceable files to the client, we wouldn't want any html anyway
19:10
<mwalters>
sure, but it was certainly structured differently than an HTTP response handler in something like node/go/c/whatever
19:10
<alkisg>
HTML could come in the future, if someone wanted to implement a frontend for administration, but that's too far away to consider now
19:17
<mwalters>
alkisg: do you have any specific concerns surrounding SimpleHTTPServer?
19:17
p sure django uses it for it's development server, I can't say I had issues with it when I used it
19:34
<alkisg>
mwalters: ah, for example, a single request from ie11 hangs the server, so that it needs a restart
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19:37
<alkisg>
Well I guess bugs can be filed as usual... maybe it's not that bad after all
19:37
And I do like the idea of having a "process" instead of a "file", server-side
19:38
<quinox>
ugh, IE and Chrome both are good at keeping hidden background connections open -_-
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19:50
<mwalters>
can't say I've experienced that
19:50
but who uses ie11 anyways? ;)
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19:53
<alkisg>
I was just testing some html5 educational apps I made, to see if they work in ie too
19:53
<danboid>
Hi guys! Does anyone know the 'best' way to boot into LTSP from the windows boot manager, ideally one tha supports both BIOS and UEFI machines?
19:53
<alkisg>
And it was like, 3 server restarts, one test
19:54
danboid: I'm working on it, it might be ready in the summer :P
19:54
For now, win32-loader for bios
19:54
And later on, grub+ipxe.efi, or grub+kernel
19:54
Or just plain pxe, without bothering with the windows boot manager
19:55
<mwalters>
I used to do the opposite I think, I had a pxelinux set up that would defer to the local boot manager
19:55
<danboid>
We have to have the Windows boot manager anyway to boot Windows
19:55
<mwalters>
this was waay back I think...
19:55
<alkisg>
I did that once, but it requires the pxe server to be up in order to boot windows, so I gave up on it
19:55
<mwalters>
so I could load dban/WDS/etc waaay back
19:55
<danboid>
We currently use grub4dos so its BIOS only
19:55
<alkisg>
danboid: that doesn't matter, there's no UI displayed by default
19:56
So having a "Press Esc to abort PXE" or a boot manager, is the same thing, just less pretty
19:56
<mwalters>
yah
19:56
I recall it took me forever to get it to load WDS correctly, but failling back to the local bootloader always worked
19:56
<danboid>
I've read grub2 can't be chailoader from windows bm
19:57
although it works te other way ofc
19:57
<alkisg>
*windows* does not support loading .efi apps
19:57
It just supports special, windows, efi-like apps
19:57
<mwalters>
Yeah, I've always done grub then windows
19:57
<alkisg>
So it's windows that's broken there
19:57
<mwalters>
or pxelinux then windows
19:57
I've never seen windows > anything else, work
19:58
<alkisg>
Maybe some time in the future grub or ipxe will release a special, windows-specific efi build,but I don't think that's soonish
19:58
As it will need to rely on windows-specific api
19:58
<danboid>
We currently have the Windows boot manaher menu present Ubuntu Linux which loads grub4dos which pxe boots LTSP
19:58
<alkisg>
!win32
19:58
<ltsp>
I do not know about 'win32', but I do know about these similar topics: 'win32-loader'
19:58
<alkisg>
!win32-loader
19:58
<ltsp>
win32-loader: win32-loader.exe adds a "PXE - Network boot" option to the Windows boot manager. It's developed for Debian and it uses http://ipxe.org for the network booting. Download it from http://ftp.debian.org/debian/tools/win32-loader/stable. More info at http://goo.gl/FPD7Zv
19:58
<alkisg>
This does the same thing, just easier + prettier
19:59
Again, BIOS only, but no need for the ancient grub4dos
19:59
It's using recent grub2
20:00
<danboid>
I was going to use refind to boot EFI machines
20:00
I was thinking about using refind
20:00
<alkisg>
Refind manages efi entries, but does it have its own boot manager?
20:01
<danboid>
I think so yes, a menu
20:01
<alkisg>
And why that, instead of grub?
20:02
<danboid>
Apparently grub2 and win32-loader don't support UEFI
20:02
<alkisg>
Nonsense
20:02
grub2 even supports secure boot
20:02
<danboid>
Sorry
20:02
<alkisg>
And if you install ubuntu on uefi, it works automatically
20:02
<danboid>
We have to use the windows bm
20:02
<alkisg>
But refind doesn't use it
20:02
It is its own boot manager, as you say
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20:03
<alkisg>
So if you're going to use some other boot manager, why not grub, which is widely adopted
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20:03
<alkisg>
And supports secure boot and everything
20:03
<mwalters>
(you just need the signed grub efi file)
20:03
<danboid>
I've read a forum post that said it is possible to boot from windows bm to refind to LTSP, I hae yet to try it
20:04
Well, the first two bits - it was to PXE
20:04
<mwalters>
I still think it'd be easier to do pxe/grub then the windows bm
20:04
<danboid>
Easier yes, but yhos is a primarilt Wondows shop
20:04
primarily Windows
20:04
<mwalters>
windows is installed on the clients?
20:04
<danboid>
All of them
20:05
<mwalters>
offer pxe or grub via dhcp, fallback to the local bootmanager if it times out
20:05
this is what I did way back when
20:06
I even had this working on a win2003 dhcp server
20:07
had a nice menu to pick dban, WDS, etc.
20:07
<danboid>
So what does that boot process look like?
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20:08
<mwalters>
iirc: I had the clients to attempt pxe first, they'd get pxelinux from dhcp, present a menu, the menu had a counter and if it timed out, it just boot from the local disk
20:08
this was back in like 2010, we were just moving from winxp machines to win7 machines at this place
20:09
alkisg: could better talk about how to hook in ltsp from a pxelinux menu, I'm sure
20:09
I don't see why the same couldnt' be done from a grubmenu w/ efi clients
20:19
<danboid>
alkisg, So there currently no known way to boot to PXE from the Windows BM on UEFI machines?
20:20
We have to use grub as the boot loader or a PXE menu to get this working on UEFI machines?
20:31
<mwalters>
I mean, it's more likely no one has ever really tried that
20:31
<danboid>
I've just emailed thr developer of refind to hear what he says
20:35
<mwalters>
oh, you know... there is an ipxe efi build, I thought
20:35
you could probably load that with refind
20:36
I had it on a usb when I was goofing with a couple uefi clients that wouldn't cooperate
20:36
<alkisg>
danboid: afaik, only ms solutions support pxe from the windows bm
20:36
Like, for WDS etc
20:36
I don't know of any open source solution that ships a windows-api-based .efi file for netbooting
20:37
The problem is in windows, not in the other solutions; windows need solutions to use windows-api
20:37
Maybe some open source app already does that, and I don't know about it
20:38
You can surely search/google, and if you end up finding something, leave us a clue
20:38
I'm more interested in solutions that aren't stricktly windows-based, as uefi doesn't need rely on the windows boot manager anyway
20:38
It's not like bios, which didn't include a boot manager. UEFI does have its own boot manager.
20:39
So you can actually just drop a kernel or ipxe.efi there, and it will be bootable
20:40
<mwalters>
it's been a while since I've had a dualboot system, but grub2 has no problems handing off to the windows bm, iirc
20:40
<danboid>
Yes but we can't have users using the EFI menus. The springboard in out case has to be wbm
20:41
<alkisg>
mwalters: sure, grub2 can chain to windows just fine, it's the opposite that's the issue
20:41
<mwalters>
yeah, I get that. I just don't fully understand why he can't do it the "tried and true" way
20:41
just set the grub menu to a 1 second timeout or something
20:41
<alkisg>
I don't know why danboid insists on that, yeah
20:41
If tools don't exist, insisting doesn't help :)
20:42
<danboid>
I dont think the MS deployment tools support deploying grub y'see
20:42
<alkisg>
danboid: no, booting from pxe
20:42
If you boot from pxe, then you can chainload snponly.efi, and that then can load a kernel
20:42
snponly.efi is ipxe loaded from tftp
20:43
<danboid>
and where does the Windows bm come into that?
20:43
<alkisg>
I mean: windows bm => some windows pxe tool => boot from pxe => snponly.efi => kernel
20:43
<danboid>
Ah right!
20:43
Thanks!
20:43
<alkisg>
I don't know if such a tool exists
20:43
It existed as a floppy 15 years ago :D
20:43
<danboid>
I'm sure the refind dev will know
20:44
<mwalters>
curious how this pans out, let us know
20:44
<danboid>
Will do
20:44
<alkisg>
In http://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/ I see that refind loads windows
20:44
<mwalters>
I just recall the only way I could get all the things working way back was to use pxelinux, then fallback on the windows bm
20:44
<alkisg>
This would imply it's a boot manager on its own, like grub
20:44
<mwalters>
it is, yeah
20:45
<alkisg>
Not an .efi application to be installed inside the windows BM
20:45
So I don't know why anyone would prefer it over grub
20:45
<mwalters>
that menu looks fancy, though!
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20:45
<alkisg>
Eh, grub supports themes if someone wants them
20:45
<danboid>
grub cannot be loader from wbm on UEFI but refind can, so I've read
20:46
<alkisg>
I avoid them as they cause issues with certain graphics drivers
20:46
danboid: are you sure you don't mean the opposite there?
20:46
<mwalters>
oh, I didn't realize that
20:46
<alkisg>
uefi > refind > windows bm?
20:46
<danboid>
Lets see what the dev says eh? :D
20:46
<alkisg>
I dont think it can go: UEFI > wbm > refind
20:47
<mwalters>
now I'm looking at grub themes
20:47
what a mistake
20:47
<danboid>
Maybe not. I'm sure if anyone knows the best route for me it'll be him
20:47
<alkisg>
It doesn't hurt to ask, but if it's a boot manager, I doubt it
20:48
<mwalters>
looks like #refind also exists here
20:49* vagrantc only ever used refind to network boot certain combinations of apple hardware and macOS
20:51
<alkisg>
http://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/installing.html#windows
20:51
"At this point, when you reboot, rEFInd should appear as your new default boot program"
20:51
It doesn't offer a menu,it replaces the windows boot manager, if I read this correctly
20:52
I mean, of course after that,it offers a menu, but that's just like grub
20:52
No UEFI > WBM
20:53
http://forum.ipxe.org/showthread.php?tid=10729 => "Windows bootmgr does not support booting any efi applications (.efi binarys) other then the ones provided by Microsoft, at least not that have been found so far."
20:57
And this lists the MS programs for netbooting: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/windows/it-pro/windows-server-2008-R2-and-2008/cc732351(v=ws.10)
20:57
They don't seem to have one for .efi
20:57
Maybe some third party developer created one...
20:58
<danboid>
I'm guessing that the windows config part is like this, no .efi files are involved
20:58
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/configure-a-pxe-server-to-load-windows-pe
20:58
<mwalters>
I mean, without looking at that doc, you're not using the windows bm at all
20:59
<danboid>
I think bcdedit is used to set wbm config isn't it?
20:59
<mwalters>
no, uefi/bios boots over the network
21:00
oh
21:00
this is just loading the windows bm over the network
21:00
and booting winpe
21:00
<danboid>
Yeah but prertend its loading ipxe or whatever instead - there no efi files involved there
21:01
<alkisg>
It loads the .wmi file there
21:01
A whole ramdisk
21:01
This one is more close to what you want: https://superuser.com/questions/1045279/use-bcdedit-to-configure-pxe-boot-as-default-boot-option
21:01
It hints that there might be a way to invoke the firmware efi boot option, from the windows boot manager
21:02
Like for example, grub has a "fwsetup" command that chains to the firmware settings,like pressing f2 when it boots
21:02
So if you enable pxe at UEFI, so that this option is available,it might be possible to chain to it
21:02
I.e. pxe enabled, but not default
21:02
<danboid>
Yes - that sounds like what we might want here
21:03
<alkisg>
The boot path might be different for each board,so you'd need to find the command on a per-client basis
21:03
<danboid>
Ah yes - bummer
21:03
Hopefully they don't vary too much
21:03
between manufactuees at least
21:06
<alkisg>
On my pc: efibootmgr -v
21:06
Boot0008* UEFI: IP4 Realtek PCIe GBE Family Controller PciRoot(0x0)/Pci(0x1c,0x2)/Pci(0x0,0x0)/MAC(74d435e9b424,0)/IPv4(0.0.0.00.0.0.0,0,0)AMBO
21:06
Maybe you could put that to bcdedit, and chain to it
21:06
<danboid>
Hopefully yes
21:06
<alkisg>
Maybe you could find the path by booting into a linux live cd and running efibootmgr -v
21:06
<danboid>
Good idea! Thanks alkisg!
21:07
<alkisg>
np, do tell if it works out
21:07
<danboid>
I'll document it for us yes
21:18
<alkisg>
vagrantc: about ipv6 local addresses: if we pass ltsp.server=fe80::a9ae:ebb8:f1bb in a client cmdline, then that client can contact the server, wget lts.conf, connect nbd, with a plain `ifup` without even requiring dhcp or an ipv4 address
21:19
Isn't it a good idea to default to that, then?
21:19
For wget=lts.conf and for nbd
21:19
Later on, the OS can do DHCP and get an ipv4 address, as long as it doesn't ifdown the interface
21:20
(the ipv6 local address is usually derived from the mac address, so pretty static)
21:21
<vagrantc>
i vaguely recall issues with ipv6 local addresses not crossing certain boundaries ... chained switches or something
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21:22
<vagrantc>
it is an interesting idea, though
21:22
<mwalters>
I have... a ton of those D:
21:22
<alkisg>
Thanks, let me ask about that over at #networking
21:22
mwalters: and ipv6 link-local addresses work?
21:22
<mwalters>
I don't ipv6 at all here
21:23
<alkisg>
Ah ok
21:23
<vagrantc>
also curious how it would work with virtual machines
21:23
<alkisg>
My VM fat client wgets from the server just fine
21:23
<vagrantc>
cool
21:23
<alkisg>
The guys at #networking say "sure, as long as your switches work normally"
21:24
<vagrantc>
there are a variety of potential common networking configurations
21:24
<mwalters>
I seem to be able to ping the ltsp server ipv6 from my laptop
21:24
I have no idea where the server is getting the address from
21:24
but I'm chained behind like... 3 switches at least
21:24
<vagrantc>
will also have to make sure to document the firewalling implications ... some firewalls default to disabling inbound ipv6
21:24
<mwalters>
probably 4
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21:25
<mwalters>
no idea how to tell if it's a link-local address
21:25
<alkisg>
I'll see if nbd properly supports ipv6, and if so, I'll try it in a couple of schools
21:25
<quinox>
it starts with fe80:
21:25
<vagrantc>
routers will have to be configured to pass ipv6 traffic
21:25
<mwalters>
it starts with fe
21:25
eer, fe80
21:26
<alkisg>
I don't think we'd want link-local over routers
21:26
<quinox>
and it has '<link> next to it in ifconfig
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21:26
<vagrantc>
i mean, if there are any routers between the client and server
21:26
<alkisg>
If someone wants it over routers, he'd use the real ipv6 address
21:26
<mwalters>
yeah, I'm able to ping it across multiple switches
21:26
<vagrantc>
sure
21:27
i've often wondered about the prospects of an ipv6 native ltsp network, so happy to start exploring it :)
21:27
<mwalters>
is there much advantage to an ipv6 lan?
21:27
I tend to not use dns and remember IPs =/
21:27
<quinox>
better routing, no weird hidden firewall reroutes needed
21:27
<vagrantc>
the ipv6 link-local addresses require very little configuration
21:28
<mwalters>
hidden firewall reroutes?
21:28
<alkisg>
If you put the kernel/initrd in a client, and then you need to point the initramfs to the ltsp server, it's very hard, if you don't have a configurable router to specify next-server
21:28
<vagrantc>
there's (not supposed to be) NAT on ipv6 ... which is a mess
21:28
<quinox>
I route traffic from our LAN to our datacenter and the other way around. With IPv6 I can write what I mean instead of using a different IP+port which happens to route to the right IP
21:28
<alkisg>
And there are no arping utilities in initramfs, to get from mac to ip
21:29
<mwalters>
oic, I have site-to-site VPNs here for that ;)
21:29
<alkisg>
So, passing the static link-local server ipv6 address is a good way to tell the clients where the server is
21:29
<quinox>
I'm already running so many VPNs to access customer sites... don't need any more :D
21:29
<vagrantc>
alkisg: where are you planning on passing this? hard-coded in pxelinux.conf or whatever?
21:29
<mwalters>
these are on our routers
21:30
probably a different use case
21:30
10.0 = here, 10.2 = another office, 10.3 = that other office, and so on
21:30
mfw I realized I never used 10.1
21:30
<alkisg>
vagrantc: in the kernel cmdline, however the client gets it, grub, ipxe, whatever
21:30
<vagrantc>
you can do similar assignments with ipv6, of course, it's just the numbers are bigger by default
21:31
<mwalters>
I'm sure I just need to read on it. I'm just getting old and crotchety and don'tw ant to learn new things ;)
21:31
it's quittin time, though... have a good evening everyone
21:31* alkisg tries to ssh from a fat client to the server via ipv6 link-local...
21:32
<alkisg>
Good evening mwalters
21:32
<vagrantc>
if ipv6 were adopted widely, you'd probably be able to forget more than you need to learn... but that's not likely to happen any time soon
21:33
<alkisg>
People at #networking said that ipv6 link-local addresses are available ...everywhere in the last 15 years or so
21:34
Even if the network isn't ipv6 enabled, that is
21:34
Let's hope that's true :)
21:34
<vagrantc>
heh
21:35
<alkisg>
ssh alkisg@fe80::a9ae:ebb8:f1bb:2677%enp0s17
21:35
==> yup, works fine!
21:35
<quinox>
\o/
21:35
<alkisg>
Lets see about nbd...
21:36
nbd-client fe80::a9ae:ebb8:f1bb:2677%enp0s17 -N /opt/ltsp/nbd3 /dev/nbd2 -swap -persist
21:36
Negotiation: ..size = 10238MB
21:36
Yey!
21:38
Timing buffered disk reads: 1058 MB in 3.01 seconds = 352.01 MB/sec
21:38
As fast as ipv4, ok there too
21:38
<vagrantc>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_IPv6_support_in_operating_systems
21:38
looks promising
21:39
<alkisg>
No more ipappend 3 vs 2 nightmares :)
21:40
!tftp
21:40
<ltsp>
tftp: Here's a page to help you troubleshoot TFTP problems in Ubuntu: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/Troubleshooting/TFTP
21:40
<vagrantc>
i'm sure we'll find other nightmares :)
21:41
<quinox>
the only things on my network that doesn't support it is are overpriced Cisco VoIP phones and a bottom-of-the-professional-market network printer
21:42
<alkisg>
tftp seems to fail
21:42
<vagrantc>
this is from the initramfs?
21:42
<alkisg>
Currently from the booted system
21:43
Transfer timed out
21:43
<vagrantc>
you might have to quote the address in various different ways depending on the application
21:43
<alkisg>
tftp fe80::a9ae:ebb8:f1bb:2677%enp0s17 -v -m binary -c get /ltsp/i386/lts.conf
21:43
It doesn't like []
21:43
Connected to fe80::a9ae:ebb8:f1bb:2677%enp0s17 (fe80::a9ae:ebb8:f1bb:2677), port 69
21:43
I think it connects, but fails to transfer
21:43
<vagrantc>
wasn't lts.conf going to be delivered over http anyways?
21:44
<alkisg>
Sure, just as a quick upgrade
21:44
for ltsp5
21:44
<quinox>
I'm off to bed - let me know if I can help by testing anything on my network
21:44
<alkisg>
Thank you quinox
21:46
Ah, I didn't start dnsmasq with the scope id
21:47
So it may not know how to respond to link-local addresses... /me tests....
21:49
Nah,that's the server, not the client, it doesn't need that
21:58
an 30 23:56:01 alkis nbd_server[19592]: connect from fe80::5054:ff:fe25:e337%enp2s0, assigned file is /tmp/nbd-swap/fe80::5054:ff:fe25:e337%enp2s0
21:58
Haha our scripts work fine, the client even got ipv6 swap
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22:06
<alkisg>
Aaand ipv6 ldm login. Yey!
22:07* alkisg calls it a day, 'night all
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