IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 1 April 2010   (all times are UTC)

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02:30
<gnunux>
bonjour
02:30
sorry ... hi
03:14
<Appiah>
:D
03:15
<elias_a>
gnunux: Je vous pardonne! :)
03:16
(I had to ask my wife how to write that - hope it is correct...)
03:16
<gnunux>
elias_a: nice ;)
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04:38
<cyberorg>
alkisg, hi, what happened to ltsp-server-pnp?
04:38
<alkisg>
Hi cyberorg, it got integrated to my sch-scripts.postinst
04:39
<cyberorg>
i was looking for the init script that detects existing dhcp server and enables proxy mode in dnsmasq
04:39
<alkisg>
Due to time constrains, for Lucid I'll only use them locally in Greece - then I'll try to move upstream whatever would be useful for others
04:39
cyberorg: I settled to this scheme:
04:40
1) detect current ip
04:40
2) use proxydhcp on that subnet
04:40
3) provide normal ip addresses at 192.168.0.1, for internat subnets
04:40
No other kind of autodetection is used...
04:41
So if it's used on a live cd, it works with the external dhcp server, but if someone has 2 nics, it provides leases on the second nic
04:41
<cyberorg>
what happens if there is no dhcp server?
04:41
<alkisg>
The server doesn't get an ip
04:41
It's up to the user to read the docs and assign an ip of 192.168.0.1
04:42
I.e. I decided that I shouldn't try to set an ip address, that's the responsibility of the user
04:43
proxydhcp proved to work in all of the cases that I tried, so we no longer use dhcp servers on the ltsp server here anyway...
04:43
<cyberorg>
ok, Lars is planning work on scrip that 1) detects dhcp server running in the network 2) use proxydhcp 3) detect ldap server in the network and auto configure ldap client 4) mount /home from the ldap server
04:44
<alkisg>
3 and 4 sound very interesting... what does (4) exactly mean?
04:44
<cyberorg>
so live DVD/USB will be LTSP out of box using existing ldap and dhcpd server
04:44
<alkisg>
Can ldap share file systems?
04:45
<cyberorg>
nfs/samba exported /home
04:45
<alkisg>
Got it. Yeah, my sch-scripts does the same, i.e. exports /home with nfs for fat clients, and as usual ssh is used for authentication instead of ldap, so it's ok for my target == small schools..
04:46
I put a template for proxydhcp there: btw, a template for https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ProxyDHCP
04:46
*damn copy/paste :)
04:46
<cyberorg>
yeah, so if the admin wants ltsp server without any configuration or changing anything in their network like configure dhcp or user management this will be useful
04:47
saw that, passed it on to lars
04:47
<alkisg>
Nice job :) Now I'm working on a control center for ltsp clients
04:47
I.e. a master server where all clients AND users are connected all the time
04:47
And the admin can send commands to each one of them
04:47
E.g. "start firefox in user1" "poweroff client03" etc
04:48
I'm using bash tcp sockets as a client, so it only needs minimal resources for each connection...
04:48
<cyberorg>
looking forward to that as well, lot of your ideas are implemented in li-f-e, last one being gpxe in boot menu :)
04:49
<alkisg>
The same ssh channel that is used for authentication is reused for the communications, so it should be as safe as we can do it
04:49* alkisg likes opensuse for its agility...
04:51
<cyberorg>
next in the pipeline is AOE image mapping, admin can map different images per mac address, so via/ati/nvidia/*DE-fatclient etc can be served from same server
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04:51
<cyberorg>
we already have that, adding that to easy-ltsp
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04:52
<cyberorg>
right now admins have to manually add macs to config file
04:55
<alkisg>
ubuntu changed the packaging in lucid so many proprietary graphics drivers can be installed simultaneously
04:56
So it should be possible to have a chroot with _all_ nvidia and ati proprietary drivers, and an init script that just updates-alternatives to select which one is actually used...
04:56
<cyberorg>
apart from that fat + thin images
04:56
<alkisg>
I don't think we'll actually see this for lucid, but it shouldn't be long till we do
04:57
<cyberorg>
or 64bit + 32bit images served by the same server
04:58
<alkisg>
I think the latest pxelinux has automatic menus for i386 vs amd64 clients.... that would be of help there
04:58
I.e. if a client is i386, the amd64 menus can be hidden etc
05:00
<cyberorg>
no, admin can say client1 use xyz.img, client2 use abc.img, client3 use ....
05:02
so powerful PCs can be mapped to use fatclient image, low resource terminals can have special very thin image, or any way we prefer
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09:51
<li-la>
hi
09:55
<CAN-o-SPAM>
hello, hi li-la
09:56
<vbundi>
happy foolsday!
09:56
<li-la>
I have openSUSE 11.2 installed, clients can boot successfully
09:56
but I can't change the keyboard layout in preferences select language
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09:58
<li-la>
in /srv/tftpboot/KIWI/keyboard I already have YAST_KEYBOARD="german,pc104"
10:01
<CAN-o-SPAM>
li-la: try #kiwi-ltsp
10:01
<vbundi>
what about lts.conf settings
10:01
or does that not apply to kiwi
10:01
http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/lucid/en/man5/lts.conf.5.html#toptoc6
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10:02
<vbundi>
CONSOLE_KEYMAP = de (or whatever it is for german), there's also XKBLAYOUT = ?? (it is unset by default)
10:06
<li-la>
CONSOLE_KEYMAP = de is a correct setting according to my docs, and not working
10:09
<vbundi>
yes but it may not apply to the X server apps
10:09
hence XKBLAYOUT option
10:10
<li-la>
just tried, XKBLAYOUT is working
10:10
thank you very much
10:11
<vbundi>
no prob
10:11
just glad I could help someone else for a change ;)
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10:12
<li-la>
I got the impression, language and keyboard setting is handled differently in suse kiwi, there are files for language and keyboard
10:12
but a standard lts.conf setting does work, problem solved for me
10:13
<johnny>
yes, it sure does use the same lts.conf settings
10:14
<li-la>
my regular slackware server is still using ltsp 4.2 and there are a lot of differences between 4.2 and 5, wanted to test ltsp 5 with a working example, before I might try to implement it on a recent slackware
10:18
will attend to my linux user group meeting this evening, plenty of samples to test my new server :)
10:18
thank you and see you again
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10:42
<romel>
Hi guys. Got some lame question :) How can I install additional packages into my ltsp environment?
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11:23
<johnny>
romel, chroot into it and install them
11:23
need to be root/sudo tho
11:23
sudo chroot /path/to/chroot
11:23
isn't there a wikipage for this somewhere tho
11:23
basically it's the same as cli way for host system
11:26
<romel>
thanks johnny
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12:13
<johnny>
alkisg, btw.. i'm talking to richard hughes about using packagekit to install packages in the chroot
12:15
<alkisg>
And? any news?
12:25
<johnny>
i'm digesting it still
12:25
seems like it's possible, and he will help us figure out any problems
12:25
but he won't code it all the way, as he is busy with rhel 6 stuff
12:25* alkisg has tried using synaptic succesfully but thinks the best way to do it is with vbox :)
12:27
<johnny>
[13:19] hughsie: give me a few mins, i want to play with the auth in SetHints idea
12:27
he's already trying to play with making packagekit do stuff in the chroot :)
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12:51
<johnny>
looks like he couldn't wait.. he seems to be going ahead with it
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14:14
<Gadi>
anyone here using our guestlogin/autologin stuff?
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14:19
<nbtstatz>
I would like to know more information as update the kernel of customer LTSP, to add a modulo the driver of NIC
14:19
R6040, someone can tell me some link
14:19
Thanks :)
14:19
<johnny>
Gadi, i am
14:19
Gadi, http://fpaste.org/ZavU/ untested patch for using packagekit to install packages in chroots via packagekit
14:20
nbtstatz, not sure, just google "adding modules to initramfs"
14:20
with your distro
14:22
<nbtstatz>
johnny ubuntu alternate 9.10
14:23
johnny I have tried many times Google I interest
14:23
<johnny>
don't tell me
14:23
tel google
14:23
<nbtstatz>
okz
14:23
<johnny>
adding modules to initramfs ubuntu 9.10
14:23
<nbtstatz>
thanks
14:23
i need to add volumes in chroot?
14:24
before make changes in initramfs
14:24
i need get in chroot enviroment?
14:28
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/AddingModules
14:28
L O L
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14:29
<johnny>
hmm.. no scott.. or alkisg
14:29
:(
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14:35
<Gadi>
hmmm
14:35
so this is weird
14:36
I can add a session for ldm by making my own .desktop file in /usr/share/xsessions/ .... but, when I specify LDM_SESSION, it doesn't like it
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14:47
<johnny>
here's the other one .. the client sside program
14:47
http://fpaste.org/soRc/
14:51
<Gadi>
ah - nm - required full path
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14:51
<Gadi>
johnny: looks good
14:55
<vagrantc>
Gadi: freegeek uses guestlogin
14:55
and occasionally autologin
14:56
<Gadi>
yeah - I was just getting caught up in nuance
14:56
got it going for what I need
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15:43
<johnny>
vagrantc, i got richard hughes to start making packagekit work for an ltsp chroot
15:43
there are some untested patches i linked earlier
15:44
<vagrantc>
what's that?
15:45
<johnny>
packagekit?
15:45
you don't know packagekit??
15:45
http://www.packagekit.org/
15:46
this is something i think we've needed for a long time to make GUI stuff for ltsp package installations simpler, and distro agnostic
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15:47
<johnny>
ah.. welcome back alkisg
15:47
there are now 2 patches. one for packagekit itself, and one for gnome-packagekit
15:47
still untested of course :)
15:48
<alkisg>
Nice!
15:48
So what exactly is the end result for the user?
15:48
<johnny>
i'm hoping snbalnaev comes along
15:48
alkisg, we should be able to integrate it into some gui tool for installing packages into chroots
15:48
<vagrantc>
johnny: like i said, i first hear about all that newfandangled kittykatkit stuff from you
15:48
<johnny>
vagrantc, packagekit isn't exactly that new :)
15:49
it's been around for over a year now
15:49
<vagrantc>
a whole year! amazing.
15:49
<johnny>
2 years really.. but in distros for a bit over a year
15:49
maybe 3 even in total
15:49
<alkisg>
Hmmm developing a package management gui doesn't sound like an ltsp task, though :)
15:49
<johnny>
well.. in any case.. you should be able to do something like
15:49
<alkisg>
We can surely use it if someone else develops it, but I don't know if we have the resources to maintain it...
15:50
<johnny>
pkcon install --root=/chroot package
15:50
/me doesn't know the actual args..
15:50
alkisg, we don't actually have to develop a gui i think.. i just figured it would fit into easyltsp or something
15:50
atm i think we are able to tell the packagekit to look into the chroot as the place to do stuff
15:50
gnome-packagekit in this case ..
15:51
<alkisg>
Well, we could do that with distro specific tools before package kit, but we didn't, no?
15:51
<johnny>
alkisg, i was assuming you wanted a distro agnostic way to install packages into the chroot for n00bs?
15:51
<alkisg>
Well, yes, but I don't really mind if it's distro specific ;)
15:51
<johnny>
sure.. but i could never promote which tool to use for somebody elses distro
15:52* vagrantc does that all the time with apt and dpkg
15:52
<johnny>
thus my power to help ubuntu users/slack users/ arch users
15:52
was down
15:52
vagrantc, could you tell somebody how to install packages for arch?
15:52
no..
15:52
did we need to point people to 20 different sets of instructions for people to install packages for their distro.. yes
15:52
<vagrantc>
thankfully, no
15:52
<johnny>
/me is exaggerating
15:52
but you get my point
15:52
now we can just say..
15:52
if you want packages in your chroot .. no matter what the distro
15:53
<vagrantc>
and it somehow resolves the fact that every distro uses different package names?
15:53
<johnny>
vagrantc, i think you can do it via their desktop file info
15:53
<alkisg>
I think it'll be nice if/when it gets integrated into distros, but isn't it kinda new to rely on it? Does it have a stable API?
15:53
<vagrantc>
that *would* be impressive.
15:53
<johnny>
alkisg, 3 years isn't that new..
15:54
it supports all the distros i mentioned.. including all the distros that ltsp is currently supported on
15:55
<alkisg>
Can it be used to bootstrap a chroot?
15:56
<johnny>
not yet..
15:56
<Ctek>
Hi alkisg
15:56
<johnny>
sadly
15:56
<alkisg>
Hi Ctek
15:56
<johnny>
it's on their todo list tho
15:57
<alkisg>
That sounds cool
15:57
<johnny>
eventually they plan on using it to replace alot of what quickstart does
15:57
err
15:57
kickstart
15:57
<Ctek>
got a few moments ? :)
15:57
<alkisg>
Ctek: yeah, shoot
15:57
<Ctek>
I have tried the LTSP 5 and did obtain fat clients succesfully
15:57
:)
15:57* alkisg also wishes sbalneav was here, as he need to switch his bash sockets implementation to C... :D
15:58
<alkisg>
Ctek: which ubuntu version? not hardy, I assume, right? :)
15:58
<Ctek>
karmic :)
15:58
<alkisg>
Did you follow the wiki page about adding stgraber's ppa ?
15:58
<Ctek>
i have tried a cross upgrade before but i have manage to make the distro usless ...
15:58
yes
15:59
<alkisg>
Did you create an ltsp-build-client.conf file? Can you pastebin it?
15:59
<Ctek>
and It did work like a charm so this is a viable solution with a second server beside the main LDAP
16:00
No, unfortunately after dat i have found DRBL :)
16:00
and did a fresh install, and it seems that it is more to my point
16:00
<alkisg>
Ah, so you're not looking to troubleshoot the fat clients setup?
16:01
<Ctek>
no, Your first advices and the wiki were super ok + extra docs readed before
16:01
<alkisg>
But it didn't work, though... :)
16:01
OK, so what are you looking for?
16:01
<Ctek>
yeah, like a charm :)
16:01
1.4 - 4% load on the server
16:02
and preatty decent speed over 100mbps network
16:02
<alkisg>
Ah, sorry, I read that "did obtain" as "did not obtain", my bad...
16:02
So now you're using drbl or ltsp?
16:02
<Ctek>
drbl
16:02
<alkisg>
OK, and your problem is...?
16:03
<Ctek>
and wanted to try to use it more with LDAP auth
16:03* alkisg has tried drbl in the past but found it pretty sloppy
16:03
<johnny>
vagrantc, alkisg it's done by /usr/bin/firefox for example
16:03
<Ctek>
But, as i have found out it is possible to serve multiple distros with drbl, and unfortunately I do not fully uunderstand the process behind drbl
16:04
on what way ?
16:04
<alkisg>
Ctek: ok, but I don't think people here know about drbl enough to help you. Isn't there a drbl support channel?
16:05
Ctek: I didn't like it's packaging/installation, it was writing in a lot of configuration files in unreversible ways...
16:05
<Ctek>
i did not find any, and i have take a shot to discuss here, Basicaly the fat clients should be "universal" in a way
16:05
Yeah, that seems to be some issues with that but it seems that in this newer relleases they have optimised the process
16:05
<alkisg>
Anyway, I only tested it for a few minutes before reformatting my drive to get rid of it, so I don't think I can help you with that...
16:06
<Ctek>
althought i'm afraid to try to integrate it into ebox server,
16:06
<johnny>
alkisg, so uhmm.. i think you can just do pkcon install /usr/bin/firefox
16:06
perhaps even just pkconf install firefox
16:06
so.. there ya go..
16:06
<alkisg>
johnny: ok, but that's still console, isn't it?
16:06
<johnny>
it's the same in the gui
16:07
<alkisg>
Does the gui accept a --chroot=xxx parameter?
16:07
(or the backend...)
16:07
<Ctek>
and before tring this i was tring to discus a little the mechanism, or sort of discussing the good point vs bad points of LTSP and drbl.
16:07
<johnny>
the backend i think
16:07
for the gui it's a gconf key
16:07
so.. our wrapper will just set the key and unset it i guess
16:07
this is just the first step really
16:08
<alkisg>
Ctek: sorry, I can't help with drbl, maybe someone else here knows/cares to comment
16:08
<johnny>
i just thought that ltsp could really use an easy way to tell users to install packages into their chroot without lots of effort
16:08
and without the command line
16:08
<Ctek>
:) Okay , anyway thank you for advices and pacience. Thanx
16:08
<alkisg>
johnny: personally, if I was to invest some effort on that, I'd look to make it easier to use vbox/qemu/kvm on chroots
16:09
Ctek: you're welcome
16:09
<johnny>
except this is easier..
16:09
and we already have a patch
16:09
<alkisg>
johnny: so one would just boot the chroot and use the distro package kit and gconf and sabayon and whatever else he needs
16:09
<johnny>
that sounds too complicated
16:09
<alkisg>
It's not only a packaging problem... fat chroots are full distros
16:10
<johnny>
sure.. but this will work for fat clients too
16:10
and non fat ones..
16:10
<alkisg>
No, I think the ltsp initscripts can be patched just a bit to allow for that
16:10
Non fat chroots aren't worth any trouble, for me
16:10
I never use localapps
16:10
<johnny>
for you.. but they are for other users..
16:10
<alkisg>
So thin chroots = standard packages only...
16:11
I think when fat clients are more stable, other people will also prefer them to localapps
16:11
<johnny>
sure.. but this solution works for that too
16:11
without booting a whole vm
16:11
<alkisg>
But it doesn't solve all the other problems
16:11
<johnny>
what other problems?
16:11
<alkisg>
How can you run gconf-editor in the chroot?
16:12
<johnny>
for what purpose?
16:12
<alkisg>
To lock down some stuff for the fat client users
16:12
<johnny>
sabayon has deployable configs.. so that's no problem there
16:12
<alkisg>
How can you run sabayon in the chroot?
16:12
<johnny>
why would you?
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16:12
<johnny>
other than the init stuff that happens on login
16:12
sabayon-apply
16:13
<alkisg>
But the sabayon profiles would be in the chroot...
16:13
<johnny>
build your config on the server.. copy it into the chroot
16:13
or.. get it via http
16:13
or ldap..
16:13
<alkisg>
Right, you need workarounds
16:13
The same for gconf, copying files etc
16:13
<johnny>
imo your method is the workaround :)
16:13
<alkisg>
By booting the chroot, you have a normal distro to customize
16:13
With all the standard distro tools
16:13
No need to reinvent new tools or methods...
16:14
<johnny>
but these aren't
16:14
these are the original ones
16:14
too
16:14
<alkisg>
What files do you need to copy to force a desktop wallpaper?
16:14
<johnny>
really.. why not just fix the fat client to use more than a server
16:14* alkisg doesn't know offhand, but knows how to use gconf-editor
16:14
<johnny>
err
16:14
<alkisg>
That's what I'm talking about
16:14
I'd need a new method to force a wallpaper on the chroot...
16:14
<johnny>
why not make fat clients mount / on the server
16:15
then the problem is solved with no new tools
16:15
<alkisg>
You mean a different fat client implementation? That would be unrelated to ltsp then
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16:15
<alkisg>
We'd need to reinvent ltsp to make it run off of /
16:16
<johnny>
not sure what benefit you're getting from the current ltsp implementaiton on a fat client..
16:16
anyways
16:16
<alkisg>
johnny: I'm using the standard way to build an ltsp chroot, I"m just installing more packages in it
16:16
<johnny>
sure.. but why?
16:16
<alkisg>
To get fat clients, what do you mean?
16:16
<johnny>
why not just mount / and boot it
16:16
<alkisg>
How else would you do it?
16:17
<johnny>
then you don't need the ltsp init stuff at all
16:17
<alkisg>
johnny: because that doesn't work
16:17
<johnny>
sure it does.. people use nfs mount for that kinda thing all the time
16:17
<alkisg>
johnny: did you try it?
16:17
Because I did, and it doesn't work
16:17
<johnny>
not with ltsp.. but why would i?
16:17
why not just use it standard..
16:18
<alkisg>
johnny: ubuntu can't be booted off a read -only nfs root
16:18
And you can't have a rw root for multiple clients
16:18
<johnny>
sure, do the same thing we do in ltsp tmfs/aufs the directories
16:18
<alkisg>
You need bind mounts or something
16:18
Right
16:18
Then, a lot of services don't work
16:19
That's what I was saying, you'd be reinventing ltsp
16:19
<Ctek>
Johnny, I have tried and as alkisg sayed it doesen't work, at best you get a recovery console on the client, For two weeks i'm exploring the hows and too's of doing this
16:19
The VAR and DEV and a lot of other directories have to be specific for clients
16:19
<johnny>
alkisg, what doesn't work?
16:19
Ctek, sure.. that's what aufs and tmpfs stuff is for
16:19
<Ctek>
Yeas but it doesen't work as you expect to
16:20
<alkisg>
johnny: how would you handle hostname, interfaces, udev net rules etc?
16:20
Wouldn't you need to rewrite the ltsp init scripts to boot the clients?
16:20
<johnny>
probably not..
16:20
<Ctek>
I'm interested in this subject :D directly and if you have some more infos please do tell.
16:20
<alkisg>
Well if you can manage it, please email me your implementation
16:21
<johnny>
what you need to do.. is fix upstart to allow passing a profile name
16:21
and only allow starting ltsp init scripts when passed say .. profile=ltsp
16:21
<alkisg>
johnny: because I tried it in the summer and after the first 5-10 problems I gave up...
16:21
<Ctek>
But that uld be valid for only one host
16:21
<alkisg>
That's why I invested in the ltsp fat client script, it's much better
16:21
<Ctek>
no ?
16:21
<johnny>
not if you mount the right directories
16:21
bind mount or aufs them rather
16:22
the smae ones we do in ltsp
16:22
<alkisg>
johnny: yes, I spent a lot of days searching for the correct directorie
16:22
s
16:22
<johnny>
alkisg, did you try installing ltsp init sripts on the server
16:22
<Ctek>
but for every host you will need some RW dirs and some RO dirs like etc and stuff
16:22
<johnny>
and making them only activiate if passed a certain kernel command line?
16:23
<alkisg>
johnny: no, because they need to communicate with the server. But anyway didn't you propose that we shouldn't use ltsp for that?
16:23
If we're installing ltsp, then why not just use the fat client script?
16:23
<Ctek>
the more closer aproach it could be to use the casper method of booting ubuntu
16:24
and mount the homes from the server but that will bring you to a RO enviroment
16:24
<alkisg>
johnny: in any case, I tried that and I decided that I didn't want to go that route. If you try it and succeed, I'd be interested in your results - but not untested stuff.
16:24
<Ctek>
right ?
16:24
<alkisg>
Ctek: casper offers an rw environment afaik
16:25
<Ctek>
jut to offer the iso image from the server as a boot image
16:25
it is possible with some scripts and you can boot a iso image over pxe but it will stil be RO
16:25
<alkisg>
Ctek: I have a script that offers the iso image from the server, if you need that. But it isn't a good solution either
16:26
<Ctek>
that's wat i wanted to say also
16:26
:) probably i did express myself more complicated :)
16:26* alkisg believes that the best way is to have an ltsp chroot in a separate partition (so no update-image etc) that can be dual booted, or booted with vbox/kvm etc
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16:27
<alkisg>
So when the admin wants to customize the chroot, he just boots it
16:27
<Ctek>
this is the way i first aproach the ltsp but i do not know if it changes something for fatclients...
16:28
and it is configured for the server enviroment and may not be ok for the client hardware.
16:29
<alkisg>
The ltsp scripts should take care of that
16:29
<Ctek>
aha..., so it could be also viable for clients
16:30
and Johnny's aproach could work but is more work involved and will result in lot's of directories for each host, if i'm not mistaking...
16:31
<johnny>
Ctek, many of them get mounted in ram anyways
16:31
the others.. yes.. you will have per directory mounts
16:33
<Ctek>
You can get over the home dirs if you mount them and the profile from server....
16:33
but with the rest of the "machine" stuff and "core" stuff i do not know how to get it to work ...
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