IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 4 July 2012   (all times are UTC)

00:50
<joulez>
sorry i'm having no luck.
00:51
I'm running 5.1.10-2 with X_CONF=/etc/X11/xorg.conf.t573x, for a multi head (dual) display but not such luck, any tips?
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02:30
<joulez>
ok i give up.
02:30
i can have both screens running playing with xrandr, but not sharing a desktop.
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06:09
<joulez>
hi
06:09
managed to get it working, setting Virtual 3200 19200
06:09
erm
06:10
anyhow, gnome is horrible with xrandr, kde is ok, xfce is worse. anyhow ;)
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10:08
<dobber>
Hi, I'm having trouble opening remote apps
10:09
any remote app
10:09
the client starts, i can login, gnome loads
10:09
than i can't do anything
10:10
<muppis>
!gnome-fallback
10:10
<ltsp>
muppis: gnome-fallback: Unity, compiz etc are sometimes slow or buggy. To select gnome-fallback as your default session, install the gnome-session-fallback package, and put this in your lts.conf: LDM_SESSION="gnome-session --session=gnome-fallback"
10:10
<muppis>
dobber, try that ^
10:11
<dobber>
this is true for version 5.2 right ?
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10:11
<muppis>
I think so, worked for me everytime.
10:12
<dobber>
i dont have fallback package
10:12
ubuntu 11.04
10:14
<muppis>
You see Gnome toolbars, but can't do anything?
10:14
<dobber>
yep
10:14
<muppis>
!disable-compiz
10:14
<ltsp>
muppis: I do not know about 'disable-compiz', but I do know about these similar topics: 'disable-compiz-the-sbalneav-way'
10:14
<muppis>
!compiz
10:14
<ltsp>
muppis: compiz: the default window manager in gnome is gnome-wm, which automatically chooses compiz if it thinks that the card supports it. Compiz is causing login problems to some clients (LP #673072). To disable it, see !disable_compiz. To restore it, see !restore_compiz
10:14
<muppis>
!disable_compiz
10:14
<ltsp>
muppis: disable_compiz: To disable compiz for all users, run at server: sudo gconftool-2 --direct --config-source xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.mandatory --type string --set /desktop/gnome/session/required_components/windowmanager metacity
10:14
<muppis>
Try that.
10:15
<dobber>
ok
10:21
still nothing
10:21
i can't even start terminal
10:21
it stays as a zombie process in the server
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10:22
<dobber>
http://pastie.org/4198098
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10:25
<dobber>
hm i can run gimp, dia, picasa
10:25
but can't run thunderbird, terminal
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11:51
<dobber>
darn
11:51
after 3 years, management decided to convert from ltsp to local installs
11:51
<muppis>
Why?
11:54
<Hyperbyte>
dobber, does it have anything to do with the problems you're having today with LTSP?
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12:05
<dobber>
yes
12:05
every couple of weeks there are problems
12:05
something does not start, something slows down, etc etc
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12:58
<Hyperbyte>
dobber, and why does this occur?
12:59
I've found that if I don't touch my LTSP installation, everything goes fine.
12:59
<dobber>
most of the problems are not related to ltsp
12:59
<Hyperbyte>
Then what causes them?
12:59
<dobber>
someone downloads 40gb imap mailbox
13:00
anotherone fires up compiz
13:00
<Hyperbyte>
Sorry to say this, but if you're having problems with your setup on a regular basis, you're doing it wrong.
13:00
Right. So disable compiz permanently.
13:00
<dobber>
Hyperbyte: i did
13:00
<Hyperbyte>
Enable user quotas.
13:00
What else?
13:00
<dobber>
man i don't remember 3 years of problems
13:00
as i said most of them are not ltsp problems
13:01
<Hyperbyte>
dobber, I'm not trying to be evil here - just a little wake up call maybe
13:01
But did you explain to people what's happening?
13:01
<dobber>
wake up about what ?
13:01
yes
13:01
<Hyperbyte>
When problems occur here, I give people a report on why it broke, and what I can and/or am doing to fix it.
13:01
<dobber>
right
13:02
bugzilla, face to face
13:02
long hours of talking everyday
13:02
<Hyperbyte>
So do people want to go back to Windows, or do they want to go to single workstations Linux?
13:02
<dobber>
ubuntu local installs
13:03
<Hyperbyte>
You're using thin clients now, or fat?
13:03
<dobber>
both
13:03
<Hyperbyte>
Do you do automatic updates on your server?
13:04
<dobber>
ofcourse not
13:04
<Hyperbyte>
Well I'm just guessing here.
13:05
<dobber>
Hyperbyte: it's 3 years of different problems
13:05
<Hyperbyte>
If you're having problems every week with Linux/LTSP, you're doing something wrong. If I install an LTSP server, and don't touch it, it will still work in a year.
13:05
<dobber>
the support crew wines are more lauder then my reason talk
13:05
no, i have like 1 major problem a year
13:05
and 1/2 workstations every couple of months
13:06
<Hyperbyte>
So did you explain to management that LTSP is not causing these problems?
13:06
<dobber>
yep
13:06
<Hyperbyte>
Their response?
13:06
<dobber>
they want to remove the complications of server/network/local/remote apps/etc/etc
13:07
everything is going to be local now
13:07
so we are not going to put domain controller or mac's thing
13:07
<Hyperbyte>
So why don't you do that now, to give them a test?
13:07
Make all clients fat.
13:07
<dobber>
we used windows domain controller for 2 years, then switched to ltsp
13:07
i did
13:08
every workstation is different, some are with 1/2gb ram, no video cards etc
13:08
bad ram with random crashes
13:08
not to mention the 20-30GB thunderbird imboxes
13:09
s/inbox
13:09
<Hyperbyte>
I still think the solution to your problems are not technical.
13:09
<dobber>
me too
13:09
10 ppl wining to management have stronger voice than 1 sys admin
13:10
apparently
13:10
<Hyperbyte>
If people here start having such large inboxes (they're at 10 GB on average here now), I go to my boss and tell him we're out of space and I need new harddisks... plus an index of costs for new harddisks in server and backup servers to handle the extra load.
13:10
<dobber>
not to mention that i have a bunch of junior admins that does not understand ltsp and thinks it's some kind of black magic
13:10
<ball>
I need to figure out how to snag the emails out of Thunderbird at some point.
13:11
<dobber>
i do a cleanup every 6 months
13:11
<Hyperbyte>
So teach them dobber. Hold an LTSP seminar.
13:11
<dobber>
i did
13:11
<ball>
...so I don't have to keep the phb's old machine running for "historical" purposes.
13:12
<Hyperbyte>
So how come they still think it's black magic after you've explained them differently?
13:12
<dobber>
well if you don't work in the field you have no experiance
13:12
i've read a ton about networking, still i don't understand it
13:13
i'm application admin
13:13
i just never worked with complex protocols
13:13* ball needs to roll out ltsp soon
13:13
<ball>
...might need to buy a new switch first though.
13:14
<Hyperbyte>
dobber, you know what happens when IT systems have problems? People complain to the IT person. If you can handle that, you explain clearly and fix the problems.
13:15
<ball>
...and disk drives, we definitely need some of those.
13:15
<dobber>
man, i'm sys admin for the last 14 years
13:15
<Hyperbyte>
If it happens too often, or the complaining becomes a burden, it gets irritating... you become less happy, you can tolerate less and have less patience with people.
13:15
<dobber>
yea it's true
13:15
i'm loosing patience
13:16
<Hyperbyte>
People take this as "oh, he doesn't want to help me" and they start complaining elsewhere. Management for example. Management seeks a solution, doesn't understand -why- you're being so unhelpful, and starts to look for technical solutions rather.
13:16
<ball>
As our interests move on, sometimes it's a challenge to stay engaged with older projects.
13:16
<Hyperbyte>
You need to run a self-diagnostic, think about what is really going on, and then talk to management to find a solution.
13:16
<ball>
...if we can't find someone to pass the baton to, we have to accept that as a responsibility that we've accepted.
13:17
too many "accepts" in that sentence ;-)
13:17
<Hyperbyte>
I've had a few of those talks as well... in fact, I've had an insanely big work conflict in january.... we had just moved offices... naturally the entire office move came down to the IT manager (me)
13:17
<dobber>
i can relate to that man
13:17
<Hyperbyte>
During the move, I had to let go of my other work for a bit... the "todo" list became longer and longer. So finally move was finished, and I was so tired from the move - I needed a break.
13:18
But there was so much work, didn't get my break...
13:18
<ball>
Sounds like a recipe for burn-out to me.
13:19
<dobber>
i did a systems convert back in feb/mar, same thing happend
13:19
<Hyperbyte>
Kept working, but became irritated at everything, didn't feel I could keep up anymore with all the troubles... at one point, I snapped completely. Told my boss that 'this is it, it's either two weeks off and an extra colleague to help with the workload, or I'm not returning to work anytime soon'
13:20
Had an insane fight with my boss, we both cursed eachother out of the building, literally... next day we had a phone conversation where we concluded that we were both burned out from the move, and there would be two new colleagues, one for me and one for him. And I got my weeks vacation too.
13:20
True story.
13:21
So my advice: first critically look at yourself, to find out if maybe your attitude/negativity towards others isn't causing the problems, and if it is - be clear to your boss -why- you feel this way, and -how- he can solve it.
13:21
Or figure out how to solve it yourself. Maybe you need to set more strict guidelines for people working under you, maybe you need to loosen up a bit more yourself - who knows.
13:22
If moving to individual workstations is going to solve your problems, then go with it. If it isn't, then be clear why it isn't and don't be afraid to make your point clear. And if they persist it's the solution for them, but it won't work for you, make it clear you will quit then.
13:23
And so ends this wall of text. :)
13:23
<dobber>
hehe
13:23
i did just that this morning
13:23
not the quit part
13:23
but i explained them all the problems we had lately
13:23
and why the ltsp solution os better for this ten reasons
13:24
it's not over until they order the machines
13:24
so it's not all lost
13:24
<ball>
The hard disk failed in my boss' desktop recently
13:25
...that helps me make the case for diskless workstations / graphical terminals
13:25
<dobber>
i'm now making a dropbox like service right now, because of the same thing
13:26
i piched them the idea, they figured how they can integrate it to our service
13:26
<Hyperbyte>
dobber, well think about what I said man. If you don't cheer up and find the positive angles in things, people around you aren't going to do that either. :)
13:27
ball, we're launching a new LTSP website soon. It might also help you make your case for LTSP. ;-)
13:27
<dobber>
yeah thank you man
13:27
i needed to calm down a bit
13:27
<ball>
Hyperbyte: I think the boss has come around to the idea now ;-)
13:28
<Hyperbyte>
ball, good. :)
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13:29
<ball>
Hyperbyte: Hard part for us now is coming up with the hardware required.
13:31
<dobber>
ball: well it depends on the usage
13:31
<ball>
I mean sourcing it, rather than specifying it.
13:32
I work (part time) for a non-profit organization, so I have to work a lot with older hardware.
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13:33
<Hyperbyte>
ball, perhaps you could find some funding for the project somehow.
13:34
<ball>
That would be a good idea, or having people donate hardware.
13:34
<Hyperbyte>
I work for a non-profit organisation too, in my spare time as volunteer. A radio station actually, go figure how much hardware we need there...
13:34
<ball>
Unfortunately someone donated a nice 2U server that takes SCA drives.
13:34
...so now I have to find SCA drives
13:34
<Hyperbyte>
We have zero money ourselves for buying new hardware, but we have some very creative people, financially
13:34
<ball>
...and a rack. Someone threw away my rack.
13:35
<Hyperbyte>
Recently we bought a new digital audio mixer (25k euros)...
13:35
All funded by external organisations.
13:36
ball, where are you at?
13:36* ball is glad we're not a radio station ;-)
13:36
<ball>
Hyperbyte: Illinois, USA
13:36
<Hyperbyte>
Ah, too bad.
13:36
Radio station has a few racks we need to get rid of...
13:36
:)
13:37
Racks are easy though, to find... lots of companies throw them out after a move.
13:37
It's all about building a network and making friends. :)
13:37
<ball>
Hyperbyte: Not where we live.
13:37
<Hyperbyte>
Big companies buy new PC's every few years. You just need one friend at such a company who will give you a few of their old PC's. :)
13:38
<ball>
Hyperbyte: My day job is with a big company, but they put their old servers etc. on pallets, shrink wrap them and presumably sell them off or pay someone to recycle them.
13:39
...I know they're not available to me.
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13:40
<ball>
It's been suggested I build a "SAN" of sorts using modern drives in a lightweight machine, just to serve space up to the old server.
13:41
Complexity is a bad thing though.
13:41
I may just see if I can hack some SATA drives into the server
13:41
Haven't tried taking out the SCA backplane yet.
13:44
Might even use 2.5" drives and just route the cables around them.
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13:46
<ball>
...but then I'd like a gigabit switch for the terminals, or perhaps a 100M switch with a gigabit link to the server
13:46
...that might do it.
13:47* vagrantc waves
13:47
<ball>
Anyone else seen IRQ conflicts on EPIA M10000 Nehemiah boards?
13:48
I'll have to learn how to install and configure LTSP too.
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13:52
<ball>
Perhaps I could just get some brackets to bolt this thing to the wall
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13:52
<ball>
I wonder if they mind being sideways.
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16:04
<ball>
The other day I was in here and someone mentioned that ltsp doesn't use xdm for logins from the terminals. What does it use instead?
16:05
<vagrantc>
ssh X forwarding
16:05
using LDM
16:06
if you really need XDMCP, you can configure it to use it, but several features (sound, local devices, local apps, etc.) won't work appropriately.
16:06
<ball>
Interesting. So LDM runs on the terminal, prompts the users for credentials and then does the equivalent of ssh -X user@host ?
16:07
<vagrantc>
basically
16:07
ssh -Y, these days
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16:07
<ball>
...with some tunnels for sound etc?
16:07
<vagrantc>
no, just setting appropriate environment variables for sound
16:08
<ball>
Is sound done using pulseaudio?
16:08
<vagrantc>
we really should look into securing up the connections for audio and local devices
16:08
one of these days
16:10
<ball>
...or NAS?
16:11
<vagrantc>
network attached storage?
16:11
<ball>
Network Audio System
16:12
<vagrantc>
we use pulseaudio ... maybe finally dropped support for NAS
16:13
yup, just dropped "support" for it a few weeks ago
16:13
though it probably hadn't been tested for years, if ever
16:14* ball nods
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16:16
<vagrantc>
the code may have been ported from my slightly tested work on lessdisks ... but pulseaudio seems to fit the bill just fine.
16:17
<ball>
"If it aint broke..." ;-)
16:18
Does PulseAudio include provision for X clients running on the host to control the volume level on the terminal?
16:18
<vagrantc>
yup
16:19
typically, i think it basiccally sets up an alsa device on the server side, that knows how to talk to pulseaudio.
16:19* ball writes that down
16:19
<ball>
So is Alsa acting as the audio server, or PulseAudio?
16:19
<vagrantc>
yes
16:19
:)
16:20
<ball>
Hmm... ok.
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17:45
<vagrantc>
hrm.
17:45
cdpinger appears to be broken on debian sid ...
17:45* vagrantc tests wheezy
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20:12
<ball>
After the user authenticates at the ldm screen and it does the equivalent of ssh -X user@host, does the host just spawn a desktop session (drawing on the terminal) as a response to the login?
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21:08
<vagrantc>
highvoltage: you're subscribed to pkg-ltsp-devel?
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21:14
<highvoltage>
vagrantc: yep
21:15
<vagrantc>
highvoltage: ok.
21:22
<highvoltage>
vagrantc: ok
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23:55
<vagrantc>
hrm. should NBD devices be ignored for ltspfs by default?