IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 20 September 2017   (all times are UTC)

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00:46
<mmarconm>
Hey xD
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03:48
<muvlon>
so, hi again :)
03:48
Last time I was here, someone recommended a cheap x86-based TV box as a fat client
03:49
I have a little question about this sort of hardware, since I've never dealt with it
03:49
is it architecturally the same as a desktop x86 computer?
03:51
i.e. does it have a regular BIOS (with regular PXE?) ?
03:53
<vagrantc>
probably
03:54
<sutula>
muvlon: I can't speak for every hardware, but have successfully used EeePC boxes.
03:54
From what I can tell, it's just like a desktop in a smaller box.
03:55
<muvlon>
but is it IBM PC compatible? :D
03:56
<sutula>
If you mean does it have a big honkin' round keyboard connector, "no" :-)
03:56
<muvlon>
it used to be that all x86 hardware for consumers was basically beefed up versions of the IBM PC
03:57
<sutula>
I was poking around earlier tonight and saw this: https://www.amazon.com/Azulle-Quantum-Access-Windows-storage/dp/B00X4O6GRK
03:57
<muvlon>
but the PS3 is not, it lacks a couple of timers and such that the IBM PC had
03:57
erm, PS4
03:57
sutula, that sadly lacks an ethernet port
03:57
<sutula>
I have no idea if it's good enough for LTSP but interesting form factor if it was.
03:58
<muvlon>
you can add usb ethernet but that's a bit gnarly
03:58* sutula nods
03:58
<muvlon>
https://www.gearbest.com/media-player/pp_691661.html
03:58
this one was the one that was linked, I think
04:03
<sutula>
muvlon: Seems nice...if people have successfully used it for ltsp, I should buy a few
04:03
<muvlon>
I'm very confused as to how it apparently ships with windows pre-installed
04:03
the entire thing costs less than a windows license though
04:07
<sutula>
Good question, but IMO they'd have to pay me to use Win10. Perhaps M$ is trying to get the OS accepted through special deals with manufacturers.
04:07
<muvlon>
nah, I'm not going to use the windows
04:07
just found that curious
04:07
<sutula>
I have talked to nobody who likes it, but have to admit I don't travel in those circles
04:08
<muvlon>
I wonder if they even give a damn or I've they're just straight up selling pirated windows :D
04:08
<sutula>
Well, it's both Android and Windows...seems at least worth a try.
04:09
<muvlon>
android support means linux has a fighting chance of working fine
04:09
<sutula>
...the kids can play rock band on the Windows boot :)
04:10* sutula needs to give it up for the night but will look in tomorrow to see if anyone else has real experience with Alfawise
05:03
<alkisg>
!cheap-client
05:03
<ltsp>
cheap-client: (#1) http://www.gearbest.com/tv-box-mini-pc/pp_343636.html, or (#2) https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/New-arrival-Beelink-Pocket-Z83-Windows-10-Mini-PC-Z8300-64bit-1-84GHz-2GB-RAM-32GB/1871240_32640039781.html
05:04
<alkisg>
muvlon: I proposed those ^, not intel usb stick...
05:04
It's usually hard to netboot from a usb ethernet adapter
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05:05
<alkisg>
!forget cheap-client 2
05:05
<ltsp>
The operation succeeded.
05:06
<alkisg>
!learn cheap-client as https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Newest-TV-Box-2G-RAM-32-G-ROM-Z83II-Mini-PC-Intel-Atom-x5-Z8350-Quad/32765989563.html
05:06
<ltsp>
The operation succeeded.
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05:07
<alkisg>
!forget cheap-client
05:07
<ltsp>
Error: 2 factoids have that key. Please specify which one to remove, or use * to designate all of them.
05:07
<alkisg>
!forget cheap-client 2
05:07
<ltsp>
The operation succeeded.
05:07
<alkisg>
!forget cheap-client
05:07
<ltsp>
The operation succeeded.
05:07
<alkisg>
!learn cheap-client as https://www.gearbest.com/tv-box-c_11262/nt1_windows~10/
05:07
<ltsp>
The operation succeeded.
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06:21
<muvlon>
alkisg, the one I posted was not a usb stick though
06:21
that was sutula's
06:21
<alkisg>
muvlon: ah ok
06:21
<muvlon>
the one I had was a Z8350-based tv box just like that aliexpress one
06:22
but it seems an ever so slightly different one
06:22
<alkisg>
muvlon: yes it's the link I posted a month ago in the ltsp bot
06:22
<muvlon>
have you used that one?
06:22
or either one really?
06:22
<alkisg>
No, bennabiy did
06:22
I've used similar ones though
06:23
The worst that can happen is that you won't be able to configure legacy netboot, and not make uefi netboot succeed, so you'd put the kernel in the local storage
06:23
A 2 min task, if you know how to do it
06:23
<muvlon>
huh
06:23
does ltsp have a tool for that?
06:23
<alkisg>
!local
06:23
<ltsp>
I do not know about 'local', but I do know about these similar topics: 'install-localapp', 'localdev', 'RDP-localdev', 'LocaldevCommonGroupWorkaround', 'localxterm', 'local-disks', 'local-boot', 'localapps'
06:23
<alkisg>
!kernel
06:23
<ltsp>
I do not know about 'kernel', but I do know about these similar topics: 'ltsp-update-kernels'
06:24
<alkisg>
I put support for updating the kernel locally, in KERNEL_DEVICE=xxx in lts.conf
06:24
!raspberrypi
06:24
<ltsp>
raspberrypi: (#1) Ubuntu/LTSP on Pi 2: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/RaspberryPi, or (#2) Debian/LTSP (with raspbian chroot) on Pi: http://cascadia.debian.net/trenza/Documentation/raspberrypi-ltsp-howto/, or (#3) unofficial Ubuntu/LTSP (with raspbian chroot) on Pi: http://pinet.org.uk/
06:24
<alkisg>
I document that in (#1) above
06:24
To put the kernel locally, you just copy it with any method you want, e.g. from an ubuntu live cd
06:24
(initially)
06:24
(then it auto-updates)
06:26
<muvlon>
how does it netboot? does it use some software pxe implementation like iPXE?
06:27
<alkisg>
Well, about "putting the kernel locally" => then it doesn't netboot, it boots from the local kernel, and initramfs loads the os from the ltsp server
06:27
About "The worst that can happen is that you won't be able to configure legacy netboot, and not make uefi netboot succeed", it depends on the client
06:27
<muvlon>
oh, I thought it would get a newer kernel from the server and then kexec that
06:27
<alkisg>
Usually it should have at least uefi netboot support
06:28
No, if it gets a newer kernel, it writes it locally, and reboots to the new kernel
06:28
No kexec used
06:28
<muvlon>
neat
06:28
<alkisg>
(kexec was unreliable in some cases)
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06:29
<muvlon>
so basically it boots regularly off local storage and then just mounts a couple of network filesystems
06:30
<alkisg>
Yes, in the local storage there's only the /boot dir though, no /usr or anything
06:30
But normally you'd just netboot it with pxe. This is just the fallback.
06:31
<muvlon>
yeah
06:31
and I suppose those TV boxes, being intel hardware and all, have pxe
06:32
<alkisg>
I'm not sure if they only have uefi pxe though
06:32
And not legacy pxe
06:32
<muvlon>
is legacy pxe bad?
06:32
<alkisg>
legacy pxe works
06:32
<muvlon>
i got that to work the other day in my test setup
06:32
<alkisg>
uefi pxe doesn't work with ltsp
06:32
<muvlon>
oh, uefi is the bad one, alright
06:33
<alkisg>
We need to implement that when we get funding... :)
06:33
<muvlon>
if the school likes it, perhaps I can convince them to fork off some cash to you
06:33
<alkisg>
Would be nice for continued development :)
06:34
<muvlon>
I'm not getting paid so far either :/
06:34
<alkisg>
What's your role for that school? Consultant?
06:34
<muvlon>
random linux person
06:34
maybe-soon-to-be-consultant
06:35
I'm still a student though so I doubt they would want to pay me that much
06:35
<alkisg>
OK
06:36
<muvlon>
I'll tell you if we actually go through with this ^^
06:37
<alkisg>
Sure
06:38
<muvlon>
if it turns out those boxes *don't* have legacy pxe, I suppose I could try and get efi pxe to work myself
06:38
not sure what would be required
06:39
<alkisg>
Patches welcome; but it would take a couple of weeks...
06:39
In some cases the major thing is to add support in dnsmasq proxydhcp mode, in syslinux, in ipxe, in grub etc
06:39
<muvlon>
I have a couple of weeks right now :)
06:40
<alkisg>
I've suceeded in uefi pxe booting in the past, but there were too many bugs in those packages, and too many restrictions, so I postponed my work there
06:40
<muvlon>
it would probably need to be upstreamed into all those projects too in order to be useful for other ltsp users :X
06:41
or does ltsp already ship with its own dnsmasq, pxelinux etc.?
06:41
<alkisg>
Of course not
06:41
We can only function when fixes are upstreamed
06:41
<muvlon>
good :)
06:41
<alkisg>
That's what we did with proxydhcp mode as well, years ago
06:42
<muvlon>
the entire mode?
06:42
so it only exists in dnsmasq because of ltsp?
06:42
<alkisg>
Yes
06:42
<muvlon>
wow! that is cool
06:43
<alkisg>
And in ipxe too
06:44
<muvlon>
quite the project indeed
06:45
okay, one last question
06:45
the ltspedia briefly mentions integrating with iTALC
06:46
and the iTALC homepage says it's discontinued in favor of its successor, Veyon
06:46
so: is there a way to integrate that with LTSP too?
06:47
<alkisg>
!epoptes
06:47
<ltsp>
epoptes: Epoptes is a computer lab administration and monitoring tool. It works on Ubuntu and Debian based labs with LTSP or non-LTSP servers, thin and fat clients, standalone workstations, NX clients etc. More info: http://www.epoptes.org
06:47
<alkisg>
italc was broken so we developed that one
06:47
I don't know about new italc versions, I've read about them but never run tham
06:47
*them
06:47
<muvlon>
alright
06:53
wait, you people made that as well!
06:54
<highvoltage>
s/people/mostly alkisg/
06:54
<muvlon>
you must be really busy :O
06:55
<alkisg>
Haha
06:55
:D
06:56
<muvlon>
I've not done that much software but I know enough Python to think I can offer some help :)
06:56
<alkisg>
If you end up using ltsp, that would be very nice!
06:57
But if you don't, I'm not sure if you'll have reasons to commit for months of development...
06:57
<muvlon>
yeah
06:59
<bennabiy>
Alkis, as far as I can tell with that TV box, it requires local kernel
07:00
<alkisg>
bennabiy: do you mean that it doesn't have netboot support, or that you couldn't make it work with ltsp?
07:00
<bennabiy>
I am going to be doing more with it in a little while, but if you do have uefi netboot patches, I could test them :)
07:00
only uefi netboot, and at that, I could not get it to work
07:00
<alkisg>
If it supports uefi netboot, then it's fine ;)
07:00
<bennabiy>
been a while since I tried, so my memory is rusty
07:00
<alkisg>
It's just a matter of checking dnsmasq etc again
07:01
For example, it didn't support proxydhcp in uefi, only normal dhcp
07:01
<bennabiy>
I am not running dnsmasq, I have the traditional 2 nic setup
07:01
<alkisg>
But I think they send some fixes for it 1 year ago
07:01
And which loader did you use?
07:01
grub,ipxe, efilinux?
07:01
<bennabiy>
At this point, I am not sure
07:02
I will have to get it back out again
07:02
I bought two
07:02
<alkisg>
Each one of those had its own issues
07:02
All worked, but under restrictions
07:02
<muvlon>
theoretically, efi should not require a loader *at all*, right?
07:02
<bennabiy>
the efi on these is VERY crippled
07:03
<alkisg>
efi has some internal bootloader, but of course it can't load kernel+initrd from the network
07:03
So a loader is needed
07:03
If we built our own kernels, and didn't use an initramfs, then we might possibly avoid it...
07:05
<muvlon>
regular uefi can load an efistub kernel + initrd from disk and boot it
07:05
not sure if the same works for pxe
07:05
<alkisg>
How does it load the initrd without grubefi?
07:07
AFAIK, uefi would load an .efi file, and provide services for that file (e.g. the kernel) to load additional stuff. I don't think the kernel supports loading an initrd afterwards.
07:07
<muvlon>
the kernel command line in "Add the boot entry" here: https://wiki.debian.org/EFIStub has an initrd argument though
07:08
I've definitely done this with regular disk boot
07:09
the question is if the efi implementation on some given device can grab and execute a .efi file from the network
07:10
<alkisg>
muvlon: so initrd=\\EFI\\debian\\initrd.img is implemented by the kernel itself?
07:10
I.e. the kernel supports loading the initrd from the efi partition?
07:10
<muvlon>
uh
07:11
I'm not a kernel wizard so I'm not entirely sure
07:11
but I think so, yes
07:11
<alkisg>
That's very nice to hear. Then sure, it could work over the network, provided that we don't bump into additional limitations, e.g. initial .efi file size..
07:12
<muvlon>
oh right
07:12
the efi implementation might be unhappy about that
07:12
there are some really broken efis out there .__.
07:14
<alkisg>
https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/efi-stub.txt
07:14
Like most boot loaders, the EFI stub allows the user to specify multiple initrd files using the "initrd=" option. This is the only EFI stub-specific command line parameter, everything else is passed to the kernel when it boots.
07:14
Yey, they implemented that :)
07:14
<muvlon>
neat!
07:16
wow, it supports arm64 too
07:16
I wish I had arm64 hardware with efi
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15:39
<sutula>
Using ltspmanager and MATE, updated LTSP image yesterday and suddenly people can't log in on thin clients. They get partway into it and then get a popup: The path for the directory containing caja settings need read and write permissions: /.config/caja
15:39
You can click "OK" but it keeps coming back up.
15:40
Eventually, reverted to the old image which works fine. Any ideas?
15:41
Searching the web for the error message, most people have some home directory permission problem, but note that the error message is missing the home directory part of the path, and seems to refer to the system root directory, if that's any clue.
15:43
Maybe it's a symptom of $HOME being unset?
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16:20
<mmarconm>
alexxtasi[m], is there a way to restar a user folder everytime thats user session is turn off or logout ?
16:20
or executa a script when the user logout
16:23
alkisg,*
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16:55
<alkisg>
sutula: thin or fat clients?
16:56
<sutula>
fat
16:56
<alkisg>
Using epoptes, open a root terminal on a client that has the issue, run cat /proc/mounts, and put the output to pastebin
16:57
You can also use the "xterm" session from LDM to see what happens
16:57* sutula nods
16:58
<sutula>
alkisg: I'm going to have to wait until people go home rather than shut down work, likely will be about 10 hrs from now.
16:58
alkisg: Alternatively, what am I looking for?
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16:59
<alkisg>
Sure, np. You can also use `sudo ltsp-update-image -r /`, which reverts to the previous image, then reboot ONE client so that it gets the issue, then immediately run `sudo ltsp-update-image -r /` again, to revert to the correct one
16:59
That way you don't disrupt running users nor users that will boot/reboot 1 minute later
16:59
You only disrupt users that need to reboot that exact minute between those 2 commands
17:00* sutula nods...I guess I can compare proc/mounts output between working and non-working if it's at a time that people aren't around here
17:01
<alkisg>
The only thing that I can think of right now, is if sshfs got uninstalled for some reason
17:02
<sutula>
OK, thanks...will come back here with either diagnostics or more questions after I do some compares.
17:02
<alkisg>
I don't think anything was changed in ltsp or other related packages recently, so it sounds like a site-specific issue
17:03
One good test is to go to ldm, select the xterm session, login. That one should work even without home or with read-only home.
17:03
Check/compare permissions there
17:04
<sutula>
alkisg: When I set up maybe a month ago, I pulled from your https://launchpad.net/~ts.sch.gr/+archive/ubuntu/ppa Is that still the best source or have things moved into the distro?
17:33
<alkisg>
sutula: ubuntu lts releases are every 2 years, while ppa updates are much more frequent
17:34
Everything goes into the distro, just 2 years later ;)
17:35
<sutula>
alkisg: OK, thanks much. Pretty much same as Debian except releases are a bit more frequent. :-(
17:36
<alkisg>
In debian it's rather easy for a maintainer to upload to backports whenever he wants
17:37
Anyway, ppas are more convenient... it's a long chat about how distros should manage software updates
17:38
<sutula>
OK, no problem at all...just didn't want to miss the announcement if the "good stuff" moves somewhere else.
17:39
<alkisg>
I'll update the wiki pages then
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19:59
<mmarconm>
has a way to reset the user folder or executa a script when the user logout ? "sorry i asked the same question before, but my connection fails"
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22:49
<vagrantc>
heh. ltspfs seems to be convertible to python3 with just python's 2to3 helper.
22:49
of course, still need to test if it works
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