IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 4 November 2010   (all times are UTC)

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02:28
<dyllan>
hi all.
02:29
I would like to know if there is any benefit to using LTSP as opposed to connecting to a server directly with XDMCP ?
02:30
For example, at the moment I setup a normal linux server, enable XDMCP and my thin client has the X Server installed and makes a direct connection to it.
02:31
With LTSP, I notice the kernel image is sent directly to the Thin Client, does that mean that there will be a speed improvement because the thin client can process quicker?
02:31
At the moment using direct XDMCP, only the screen is being fetched across the network, is has its downsides, but before I get started with LTSP I want to be sure its the better option. thanks
02:32
<muppis>
With LTSP, you don't need any HDD in client.
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02:33
<dyllan>
muppis, ok. But is that the only benefit ?
02:33
<muppis>
And you can choose more freely is program runned in server or in client.
02:34
<dyllan>
muppis, can I choose that on the fly, while im working, or is that a pre-determined setting?
02:34
<alkisg>
Also you have sound, local devices (usb sticks etc) inside the user session etc
02:34
<dyllan>
Also, if something is going to run on the client, how does linux know what hardware the client has etc?
02:35
<alkisg>
A minimal OS is transferred to the client, and the clients boot from it. The hardware is handled by the kernel, everything autodetected...
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02:35
<dyllan>
alkisg, would video streaming be capable with LTSP? because it is VERY slow with XDMCP, I struggle load large flash sites, very jittery.
02:35
to load*
02:36
<alkisg>
Performance-wise it'll be the same, *if* you enable LDM_DIRECTX in a configuration file called lts.conf. Without that option LTSP will be slower.
02:36
<muppis>
Unpacked video is always performance issue.
02:36
<alkisg>
Other players, like totem etc use XV acceleration so video is usually fine
02:37
But flash doesn't use XV so it sucks :)
02:37
You can use a lower bit depth to make it a little better
02:37
<dyllan>
hmmm
02:37
<alkisg>
(X_COLORDEPTH=16 in lts.conf)
02:37
!flash
02:37
<ltspbot>
alkisg: "flash" :: Yes, flash sucks. Make sure you have LDM_DIRECTX=True in your lts.conf file, or if it's just youtube you're after, try some flash replacing plugin like https://addons.mozilla.org/el/firefox/addon/161869/ (per user installation, gecko-mediaplayer is also needed).
02:38
<dyllan>
What about if I get the client to do all the processing?
02:38
<alkisg>
CPU/RAM?
02:38
<dyllan>
yup
02:38
1.6GHz Atom
02:38
<alkisg>
No, I mean what are the client specs?
02:38
<dyllan>
2GB Mem
02:38
www.devonit.com
02:38
<alkisg>
Oooh that's too good to run as a thin client or with XDMCP :)
02:38
<dyllan>
TC5
02:38
<alkisg>
!fatclients
02:38
<ltspbot>
alkisg: "fatclients" :: You may find some info about the Ubuntu/LTSP implementation of fat clients at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients
02:38
<alkisg>
That method sends a complete netbooted OS to the client
02:39
You only use the server as a network disk + for authentication
02:39
So the client behaves exactly as if it had an OS locally installed
02:39
<dyllan>
yea, i've tried the ubuntu Fat Client setup, and while it works quite well I would prefer to use Gentoo because I think there will be a big speed improvement.. . But alas, no wiki for that so trial and error.
02:39
<alkisg>
Erm, why do you think that?
02:40
<dyllan>
alkisg, That's definitely what I am looking for, and as above I have setup the Ubuntu version, works well, but I can help imagining how much faster a Gentoo version would be.. .
02:40
alkisg, because Gentoo compiles from source, so all packages are built specifically for the arch, there is no extra baggage.
02:41
<alkisg>
So? I don't think that's too important...
02:41
<dyllan>
For example, using the XDMCP method as above, Ubuntu is dog slow, as are 99% of the rest of the Linux Distro's. But using Gentoo wit hthe XDMCP methos os lightning fast.
02:41
<alkisg>
If you were looking for lower RAM usage, OK, but I don't think CPU-wise it'll make much of a difference
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02:42
<dyllan>
alkisg, the problem is that now my users are used to lightning fast speed, so move them to Ubuntu they will notice the difference.. .
02:42
<alkisg>
XDMCP == remote X. So the performance should be the same *IF* the same drivers are used
02:42
What graphics card do the clients have?
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02:42
<dyllan>
alkisg, agreed, however the performance on the physical server is more sluggish and thats what we see, not the XDMCP protocol that as you say is the same.
02:43
alkisg, Intel.. .... will have to look on the site quickly.
02:43
<alkisg>
You can use anything on the server, as it's not used by fat clients
02:43
You can e.g. have an ubuntu chroot on a gentoo server
02:43
Which intel card exactly?
02:44* alkisg has seen more than 20% performance difference between different versions of the *same* intel drivers...
02:44
<dyllan>
http://www.devonit.com/hardware/tc5-compact/technical-specifications
02:44
945GSE/ICH7-M chipset
02:45
alkisg, noted. I tried adding gentoo / into the Ubuntu Fat Client Server that I had sucessfully setup but struggled, doesnt work exactly the same so its gonna take some more fiddling.
02:45
<alkisg>
That should support xv / 3d / kms etc, it should work fine locally. But e.g. I think that enabling KMS on that card slows it down a bit.
02:45
dyllan: what struggled? The server?
02:46
Or the clients?
02:46
<dyllan>
alkisg, no, I did, for example the Ubuntu setup (fat clients) the clients would load the kernel image and work fine, the Gentoo kernel however was found and tried to load but got Kernel Panic, so something was wrong.. .
02:47
so I struggled to get the Gentoo running under the same Ubuntu fat client env.
02:47
<alkisg>
So it was not a successful setup :)
02:47
<dyllan>
correct.
02:47
I guess the proof really is in the pudding, I will need to set it up sucessfully and test from there.
02:47
<alkisg>
Try booting Ubuntu from a usb stick on the client. The actual fast client setup should be *much* faster because gigabit == much faster than usb stick.
02:48
*fat
02:48
<dyllan>
alkisg, booting the client from a USB Ubuntu works like a charm, awesome.
02:48
<alkisg>
If you have an external hard disk (usb), then you can use that to see the actual performance
02:48
dyllan: then a *correct* fat client setup will be faster
02:49
<dyllan>
great.
02:49
well i best get cracking then
02:50
thanks for your input/help alkisg
02:50
<alkisg>
If you see any part that is slower, then it's a misconfiguration...
02:50
<dyllan>
much appreciated, i am certain i will revisit later for more info ;)
02:51
*nod*
02:51
<alkisg>
np
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03:25
<mssmss>
Hi
03:26
looking for help on ltsp-build-client failure .....
03:27
<alkisg>
!question
03:27
<ltspbot>
alkisg: "question" :: if you have a question about ltsp, please go ahead and ask it, and people will respond if they can. please also mention the linux distro and release you're using. :)
03:27
<mssmss>
thanks alkisg
03:27
ugraded edubuntu 8.04LTS to 10.04LTS
03:28
clients would not connect after upgrade ....
03:28
finally tried reinstalling ltsp
03:28
on ltsp build client, getting :
03:28
I: Base system installed successfully.
03:28
and then
03:29
error: LTSP client installation ended abnormally
03:29
did an strace ... output is at http://pastebin.ca/1973680
03:32
<alkisg>
What arguments did you pass to ltsp-build-client?
03:32
<mssmss>
trid bot with no arguments and with --arch386
03:32
same result
03:32
<alkisg>
What locale are you using?
03:32
echo $LANG
03:33
<mssmss>
en_IN.UTF-8
03:36
<alkisg>
Do you still have the generated chroot or did you delete it?
03:37
Try: sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 locale-gen en_IN.UTF-8
03:37
<mssmss>
ok .. I'll try that
03:38
ok .. did that]
03:38
<alkisg>
Any errors there?
03:38
<mssmss>
no, came back silent
03:38
<alkisg>
echo $?
03:38
What does that say?
03:39
<mssmss>
says "$"
03:39
<alkisg>
With the ? in the end - but it only applies exactly after the chroot... so:
03:39
sudo -i
03:39
<mssmss>
ok
03:40
<alkisg>
chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 locale-gen en_IN.UTF-8 || echo failed
03:40
Does that print "failed"?
03:40
<mssmss>
echo $? gives 127
03:40
<alkisg>
That's the problem, locale-gen doesn't work for your locale
03:41
<mssmss>
yes , prints failes
03:41
<alkisg>
Now try: sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 locale-gen en_IN.utf8
03:41
Now try: sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 locale-gen en_IN.utf8 || echo failed
03:41
^^better that one
03:42
<mssmss>
still get "failed"
03:42
<alkisg>
OK the problem is that locale-gen can't handle that locale, but I don't know why
03:43
To workaround it, pass locale=en_US.UTF-8 to ltsp-build-client
03:43
<mssmss>
ok .. how do I fix it ?
03:43
<alkisg>
so, sudo ltsp-build-client --locale en_US.UTF-8
03:44
<mssmss>
use : sudo ltsp-build-client --locale=en_US.UTF-8 ?
03:46
let me try that ....it takes about 10 minutes
04:01
I: Base system installed successfully.
04:01
Generating locales...
04:01
en_US.UTF-8... done
04:02
looks like it is working ... instead of the error earlier, it's now getting files...
04:04
<alkisg>
mssmss: maybe you should file a bug against locale-gen, saying that it doesn't work for en_IN.UTF-8 nor en_IN.utf8 but it does work for plain en_IN
04:05
<mssmss>
you mean works for en_US.UTF-8
04:06
<alkisg>
That too, but it also works for en_NI without UTF-8 in the end
04:06
Try it yourself on your server
04:06
locale-gen en_NI.UTF-8 => fails silently
04:06
locale-gen en_NI => works
04:06
<mssmss>
ok ... don't want to try anything else once this works :-)
04:07
<alkisg>
OK, but filing a bug will help others that have your problem. Communities work by helping each other.
04:07
<mssmss>
but will definitely file the bug
04:10
it's still building ...I'll wait till it finishes and test the client before filing the bug
04:10
<alkisg>
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/langpack-locales/+filebug
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04:35
<mssmss>
alkisg - thanks a lot ......clients are able to log in now ...
04:35
am filing the bug
04:35
<alkisg>
np
04:37
<mssmss>
alksig, I am ready to submit the bug ... shoul I attach any other info ?
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04:45
<alkisg>
mssmss: I don't think so, it's easily reproducable with 3 commands without anything ltsp-related
04:45
<mssmss>
alkisg: submitted bug report :
04:45
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/langpack-locales/+bug/670830
04:45
<alkisg>
mssmss: <tab> autocompletes the irc user names so that you spell them right :)
04:45
<mssmss>
thanks for your help
04:46
<alkisg>
You're welcom
04:46
e
04:47
<elias_a>
I was suggested that virtualizing LTSP server instance would be a good idea: easier backup etc.
04:47
Any comments or experiences?
04:48
<mssmss>
thanks for the tip ...
04:48
<elias_a>
My first intuition is "why bother"... I would in any case dedicate the server box to LTSP use and not mess up with anything else.
04:48* alkisg follows the same intuition too... :) but lots of people here use virtualization
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04:50
<alkisg>
I'm using a second partition for backup, so that I can immediately boot it in failures to minimize downtime
04:51
<elias_a>
I guess with present hw and virtualization techniques the speed will not be an issue.
04:51
<alkisg>
But if you want to move the installation to a different server, then you also have to delete /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules so that eth0 doesn't get a different name
04:52
Current virtualization techniques also offer live server migration, which is something you cannot do when running on native hardware
04:52
<elias_a>
We are setting up 2 servers with SW Raid and thinking what new tricks we should be thinking of...
04:53
Is there a howto on LTSP & virtualization somewhere?
04:53
<alkisg>
I don't think there is, since it isn't ltsp-specific. Any generic how-tos will do...
04:55
<elias_a>
I wonder how SW RAID will behave perfomancewise in such a setup...
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05:00
<alkisg>
Are they independent servers or are you using ltsp-cluster?
05:06
<elias_a>
They are separate, independent servers.
05:08
We thought of setting up a cluster but as another small town raised hand shouting "we want to have one, too" we are taking them to different places.
05:18
<alkisg>
I'd like to see some software raid benchmarks too, especially compared to using separate, non-raid disks for / and for /home
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06:34
<pmatulis>
elias_a: i use LTSP virtually
06:35
elias_a: using KVM on Ubuntu
06:35
<muppis>
I run both (server and client) in my isolated test network with KVM.
06:36
<pmatulis>
muppis: yes, thin clients as KVM guests are great for testing
06:37
<muppis>
pmatulis, also bridged one of KVM host's nic to same network for possibility to have real HW client.
06:37
<pmatulis>
muppis: yup, i've done that too :)
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06:48
<arthurl>
hi
06:48
i've migrated from a normal ltsp to an ltsp-cluster
06:49
with the new radeon driver I'm getting high loads on the thin clients that I wasn't getting before
06:50
one idea is that we used to be in XAA and now it uses EXA
06:50
we used to switch using X_OPTION_01 which doesn't appear in the web interface used to configure the new clients
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07:07
<elias_a>
pmatulis, muppis: Thank you! Why did you guys choose KVM above other alternatives?
07:08
<muppis>
elias_a, we already got KVM based virtuals running.
07:08
<elias_a>
Is this channel logged publicly? May I quote text in a message on a publicly archived mailing list?
07:08
<pmatulis>
elias_a: it should be logged, yes
07:09
<elias_a>
muppis: So you did not really do any comparison with the specific needs of LTSP?
07:09
<muppis>
elias_a, nope.
07:09
<elias_a>
pmatulis: I presume that means it's OK to quote, then...
07:09
<pmatulis>
elias_a: normally we don't paste much text at once in irc channels though
07:09
elias_a: best to use a pastebin
07:10
<muppis>
elias_a, as we got only one production LTSP in use, so I'm very newbie with this thing.
07:12
<elias_a>
pmatulis: I meant the other way around: I am going to quote discussion of this channel elsewhere. On a mailing list.
07:13
<pmatulis>
elias_a: why?
07:13
<elias_a>
It would be a breach of privacy if someone thought that this is not a public channel. But as this is publicly logged, it is not an issue enymore.
07:13
anymore.
07:14
pmatulis: Pardon me but I do not understand what you are asking? Do you mean "why do you want to quote IRC discussions elsewhere"?
07:15
<pmatulis>
elias_a: yes
07:16
<elias_a>
pmatulis: We have a list of FLOSS people at schools of approx. 60 subscribers all over Finland. They are not following this channel. I am going to address them the same question: "pros/cons/experiences of LTSP virtualization".
07:17
And quote the discussion we had here. Any objections?
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07:18
<pmatulis>
elias_a: well, you're free to do what your want but the best is to digest what you've learned, here and elsewhere, and then post your conclusions on your list in your own words. we're not a definitive resource here
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07:22
<elias_a>
pmatulis: Exactly. My goal is to ask the guys and girls what they think about it. That discussion is in Finnish. The final reports are very likely to be in English.
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07:42
<_UsUrPeR_>
arthurl: I just read what you have typed. Are you trying to make changes to the lts.conf in the directory structure, or are you using the cluster control configuration manager?
07:48
<arthurl>
_UsUrPeR_, am using the cluster control configuration manager
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08:02
<_UsUrPeR_>
arthurl: ok, and what setting were you using with X_OPTION_01
08:04
<arthurl>
X_OPTION_1='\"AccelMethod\" \"xaa\"'
08:05
<_UsUrPeR_>
arthurl: ok. I assume there's a blank field to enter that option in the cluster control manager. Is that correct?
08:05
<arthurl>
i don't see any blank field
08:05
or maybe it's X_ARGS (undocumented)
08:06
<_UsUrPeR_>
oh, ok. So an option needs to be added then.
08:06
Or a blank field.
08:06
hmm
08:06
<arthurl>
for example
08:06
I don't know why the attributes shown is a subset of the attributes available for lts.conf
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08:11
<arthurl>
_UsUrPeR_, do you work on the configuration manager's code, or do I have to file a bug somewhere ?
08:12
another missing parameter is LOCAL_DEVs
08:14
<_UsUrPeR_>
arthurl: Unfortunately I do not. You will want to be speaking to Stefan Graber (stgraber) about proposed changes to cluster.
08:14
I believe he is the project head
08:15
<arthurl>
is there a bugtracker?
08:19
<stgraber>
arthurl: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp-cluster/+filebug
08:20
<arthurl>
stgraber, ok, will file a bug
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08:24
<arthurl>
stgraber, is it a missing feature or i'm missing something ?
08:25
<stgraber>
arthurl: there's a tool to add additional parameters
08:25
arthurl: adding all parameters would make the interface impossible to use as there's several hundreds of these
08:26
<arthurl>
fair enough
08:26
is the tool control-center.py ?
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08:26
<stgraber>
yep
08:26
it takes a configuration file as parameter that contains the list of attributes to add to the control center
08:27
<arthurl>
stgraber, is it safe to use on an existing database?
08:27
<sbalneav>
Morning all
08:27
<stgraber>
as long as you at least have all of you current attributes listed in the file, it shouldn't try to remove them
08:27
though it'll clean up the log
08:28
<arthurl>
and status and computershw (what are these?)
08:28
<stgraber>
arthurl: if you want to restrict it to just update the attributes, modifiy the .py script to only call UpdateAttributes() (at the end of the file
08:29
status is a table containing the current status of all thin clients, it'll get regenerated as thin clients request information from the control center
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08:29
<stgraber>
computershw is the hardware inventory, it'll get regenerated at the same time as status
08:29
<arthurl>
ok
08:31
stgraber, did I miss the documentation of this script or it doesn't exist ?
08:32
<stgraber>
arthurl: doesn't exist (as far as I know)
08:33
arthurl: we don't work much on the current control center, mostly focusing our efforts on the new one (though still quite far from having something ready to be used)
08:34
<arthurl>
stgraber, anything published that we can look at ?
08:34
<stgraber>
arthurl: https://www.ltsp-cluster.org/documentation/technical-introduction#_LTSP-Cluster_as_we_see_it_in_the_future_ explains the idea
08:35
arthurl: http://ltsp-control01.stgraber.org/loadbalancer/overview for an example of one of the plugins
08:36
<arthurl>
any ETA for a new release ?
08:37
(sorry for so many questions but I want to use LTSP-cluster but with current small difficulties I need to convince my company)
08:38
<stgraber>
arthurl: not really, I'm currently working on the daemon that'll run on the application servers and on the thin clients. I'll then try to have this daemon talk to the old control center so I can drop the old client code.
08:38
arthurl: once that's done, I'll be able to start working on the control center and modifiy the daemon to use it progressively
08:40
arthurl: if I can continue at the same rate, I should have something that sort-of works in a few months. Then a few of our customers and partners said they'd be interested in contributing, so hopefully the development should go a lot faster then
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10:55
<hahlo>
installed wine and spotify on ltsp server, it doesn't seem to work well, starts but then stops, wonder is this ltsp issue?
10:56
<alkisg>
It shouldn't have to do anything with LTSP. Try running it from the command line to see any error messages.
10:57
<hahlo>
I got some strange line about sound device
10:58
<alkisg>
While running that on a thin client? What line?
10:59
<hahlo>
ixme:mixer:ALSA_MixerInit No master control found on HDA NVidia, disabling mixer
10:59
fixme:mixer:ALSA_MixerInit No master control found on HDA NVidia, disabling mixer
11:00
strange cause sound device is realtek
11:02
reason is cause nvidia card got hdmi out but I don't use that sound
11:04
<Kyle__>
hahlo: Out of morbid curiosity, WHY?
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11:05
<hahlo>
Kyle__: hehe I just thought that sound comes out from that audio device where I can plug speakers, but I don't know which one this ltsp use
11:06
<Kyle__>
hahlo: No, I meant why the hell would you put wine and spotify on a a server responsible for running multiple machines.
11:07
<hahlo>
ah, just for curiosity
11:07
<Kyle__>
hahlo: The only way to do it (and I"m not saying htis is a good idea), is to insulate it as much as possible, probabyl by using a VM condom.
11:07
hahlo: Ah I see.
11:07* Kyle__ nods
11:08
<Kyle__>
I admit, I've done worse for curiosities sake. But I still say a proper VM environment like vbox or kvm would be a nicer way of dealing with it ;)
11:09
<hahlo>
but where sound come out generally in ltsp, I mean I hear it from client laptop speakers but does it use client sound card or server?
11:09
<abeehc>
client
11:09
<Kyle__>
Sorry, I've only used fat clients, so I'm not as familar with the thin client stuff.
11:10
<hahlo>
ok I see
11:10
<abeehc>
most purpose made thin clients have a proper speaker inside
11:10
and they just make noise, sometimes when you don't want them too
11:11
<Kyle__>
abeehc: Are they generally OK when they've got a mic/headphone jack?
11:12
<hahlo>
I noticed that I don't see that speaker applet on panel
11:12
<Kyle__>
hahlo: On the clients? Did you put them in the right groups?
11:12
<hahlo>
yes
11:13
oh no
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11:13
<hahlo>
should I put clients on some group? (IÍ„'m very new on ltsp)
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11:14
<Kyle__>
Yes, and which group depends on what distro you're using.
11:15
<hahlo>
ubuntu 10.10
11:17
<Kyle__>
hahlo: I think then you just need the audio group.
11:17
<abeehc>
Kyle__: in my experience it works pretty well yeah
11:18
i think the applet tends to work for me
11:18* Kyle__ nods
11:18
<Kyle__>
it works on my fat clients. And if the user isn't (because I was adding them in a rush, or was feeling mean, whatever), it doesn't.
11:18
<abeehc>
it's all about the client hardware though on some level.. my clients have a headphone jack in the front; but plugging into that doesn't cause the internal speakr to shutup
11:18
so not ideal
11:18
<Kyle__>
abeehc: Ugh.
11:19
<abeehc>
but for the most part my clients doesn't need sound
11:19
<hahlo>
should I add user on that group or what?
11:19
I mean ain't user on server?
11:20
<abeehc>
i'm not sure it's neccesary
11:20
<Kyle__>
abeehc: Last week was the first time anyone needed audio on my clients, and they've been in place and in use since May.
11:20
<abeehc>
yeah i hear that
11:20
my client users aren't in the audio group on the server
11:21
sound still works.. i think for the normal thin client setup it's not neccesary
11:21
I'm often wrong though
11:21
<Kyle__>
Oh. Hu. Must be something with the fat client stuff then.
11:21
<abeehc>
Kyle__: the only time i hear about it is due to asterisk emailing voicemail .wav files hehe
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11:22
<abeehc>
which is very much valid
11:22
but i'm a bofh
11:22
<Kyle__>
abeehc: Neat, you guys you asterisk?
11:22* Kyle__ nods
11:23
<abeehc>
:)
11:23
<Kyle__>
Users exist only as our foil.
11:23
Or fodder. Depends on mood.
11:23
<abeehc>
hehe
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11:25
<abeehc>
we use oss wherever possible
11:25
turns out to be most places
11:26* Kyle__ nods
11:26
<Kyle__>
At this job I have the flexibility to pull that off (usually). My old gig, they said they would for cost-savings, but shied away half the time.
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11:29
<abeehc>
yeah i hear ya- im in a small shop which rules
11:29
previously was in a monster corporation that sucked
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11:39
<arthurl>
stgraber, ok, got control-center.py working
11:39
added CONFIGURE_X and X_OPTIONS_01
11:39
which I can see in /var/cache/getltscfg-cluster/lts.conf
11:39
but still not xorg.conf ...
11:40
no /etc/X11/xorg.conf or /var/run/ltsp-xorg.conf
11:40
stgraber, any ideas what i'm missing?
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12:15
<hahlo>
apparently adduser 'username' audio helped for spotify hearing
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19:13
<sbalneav>
Evening all
19:19vagrantc has quit IRC
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19:20
<jammcq>
sbalneav: ping
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19:23
<sbalneav>
jammcq: pong
19:26
<jammcq>
hey, we were just looking on the map for your cottage
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19:27
<jammcq>
sbalneav: what harbor or cove is it near?
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19:41
<sbalneav>
Sorry, was on another screen.
19:41
Onse sec....
19:42
jammcq: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=50.461788,-96.537937&num=1&t=h&sll=50.462203,-96.562958&sspn=0.039613,0.109005&ie=UTF8&ll=50.4604,-96.537895&spn=0.017813,0.109005&z=14&layer=c&cbll=50.46036,-96.537763&panoid=IjhaCCyVkgj2Dz9aQMr__Q&cbp=11,276.08,,0,3.83
19:43
<jammcq>
cool
19:43
<sbalneav>
You can't actually see my cottage, too far back from the road (300 meters)
19:43
<Lumiere>
hi sbalneav jammcq
19:43
<sbalneav>
but that's my driveway.
19:43
<Lumiere>
ltns
19:44
<sbalneav>
Hello Lumiere
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22:12
<highvoltage>
hey everyone
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