IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 31 December 2013   (all times are UTC)

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01:20
<ogden>
Hey quick question hopefully since i've been looking into LTSP. If I'm running in a fatclient LTSP setup but im wanting non persistent storage so that the machines are fresh on every reboot how can I accomplish this?
01:21
I'm using LTSP on ubuntu 12.04.3
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07:01
<alkisg>
vagrantc: Hi there! Should we try to list the things we want to do in ltsp5 before creating the ltsp6 branch?
07:03
!alkisg-todo
07:03
<ltsp>
alkisg-todo: (#1) upload fixed nbd-server package in the PPA, or (#2) implement LDM_[PRE|IN|POST]SESSION_CMD, or (#3) LDM password hash, or (#4) Check ltsp bugs in debian.org, or (#5) nbd-disconnect isn't called at all because the cmdline changed, no nbdroot=
07:03* alkisg is currently trying #5...
07:10
<alkisg>
!kvm
07:10
<ltsp>
kvm: To boot a virtual thin client with kvm: kvm -vga vmware -ctrl-grab -net nic,model=virtio -net user,tftp=/var/lib/tftpboot,bootfile=/ltsp/i386/pxelinux.0
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07:14
<GEEGEEGEE>
/etc/ltsp/ltsp-build-client.conf doesnt exist on Ubuntu 12.04 after installing ltsp-server-standalone
07:14
is this normal?
07:15
<alkisg>
GEEGEEGEE: yes, it's normal
07:15
<gdi2k>
GEEGEEGEE, yes, I did a 12.04 install yesterday and had to create it manually
07:15
<GEEGEEGEE>
ok thanks, and i just need the ARCH= line and my FAT_CLIENT_DESKTOPS to configure it as fat client?
07:15
<alkisg>
!fatclients
07:15
<ltsp>
fatclients: You may find some info about the Ubuntu/LTSP implementation of fat clients at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients
07:16
<GEEGEEGEE>
oh ok thanks alot :)
07:16
<alkisg>
It's not necessary to use that file, you can pass what you want in the ltsp-build-client command line
07:17
<gdi2k>
I am struggling a bit with slow application start up times when using fat clients - I have libreoffice --quickstart working, which helps for that, but other apps are rather slow to start (presumably due to limited network throughput). Would preload work with fat clients?
07:18
<alkisg>
gdi2k: run a network benchmark and report the values
07:19
If libreoffice needs 120 MB to get launched, and your network is 100mbps, and you boot 10 clients, ...do the math :)
07:19
http://www.epoptes.org/documentation/lan-benchmark
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07:26
<statick>
Saludos
07:26
alguien de habla hispana
07:26
o/
07:26
me interesa montar un servidor ltsp
07:26
y utilizar como clientes otras 10 pc
07:27
me gustaria realizar unas preguntas para ver si es posible con los recursos que tengo
07:27
<vagrantc>
alkisg: might be good.
07:28
alkisg: looks like i'm not getting to ltsp 5.4.7 today
07:28
<alkisg>
!learn ltsp5-todo as "fix nbd-disconnect"
07:28
<ltsp>
The operation succeeded.
07:28
<alkisg>
vagrantc: let's add our TODOs there, I don't think we have many to worth a wiki page...
07:28
<vagrantc>
alkisg: sounds good
07:29
<alkisg>
statick: I haven't seen anyone here give support in spanish, maybe you want to try http://translate.google.com ?
07:30
<vagrantc>
alkisg: maybe i'll find some time tomorrow
07:31
<alkisg>
vagrantc: no problem, noone is chasing us... the important thing is to enjoy it :)
07:31
<vagrantc>
alkisg: yeah, but i really enjoy making progress!
07:31* vagrantc waves
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07:33
<gdi2k>
alkisg, looks like I have a network performance problem: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6667200/
07:34
could well be the flow control issue as server is connected to switch via 1 gb, clients via 10 mbps
07:34
*100 mbps
07:34
<alkisg>
What NIC on the server?
07:34
<gdi2k>
you want model etc.?
07:34
<alkisg>
intel, realtek, atheros..
07:34
Or if you have shell access, this: lspci -nn -k | grep -A 2 Ethernet
07:35
Also, that *kbps upload speed is very problematic
07:36
That means that any writes to the disk are extremely slow, slower even than a cdrom
07:36
<gdi2k>
http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6667210/
07:36
yes, I understand that, it's crazy slow
07:37
the server has raid1 SSDs, so I think it's a network issue - the disks are quick
07:37
<statick>
Qué posibilidades hay de montar un Server LTSP con las siguientes caracteristicas
07:37
12 Maquinas (Estudiantes) y 1 Máquina (Docente) esto actualmente esta instalado en Red con un Switch de 24 Puertos
07:37
Clientes
07:37
Pentium 4
07:37
<alkisg>
With iperf you don't access the disk, so yeah disk doesn't matter
07:37
<statick>
128 mb de Ram
07:37
30 o 40 Gb de Disco Duro
07:37
Servidor
07:37
Pentium 4
07:37
4 gb de Ram
07:37
500 Gb de Disco Duro
07:37
Ademas cuento con un TPLink de 2 antenas que provee internet
07:37
What are the chances of mounting a LTSP Server with the following characteristics
07:37
12 Machines (Students) and 1 Machine (Teacher) that is currently installed on a Network Switch 24 Ports
07:37
customers
07:37
Pentium 4
07:37
128 mb of Ram
07:38
30 or 40 Gb Hard Drive
07:38
server
07:38
Pentium 4
07:38
4 gb of Ram
07:38
500 Gb Hard Drive
07:38
I also I have a TPLINK 2 antennas that provides Internet
07:38
<alkisg>
statick: you need 1 gigabit port on the switch for the server, and the server needs to be dual core, not pentium 4
07:39
http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_lookup.php?cpu=Intel+Pentium+4+3.00GHz&id=1074 ==> this gives performance == "360"
07:39
You need a CPU with about "1500"
07:39
<statick>
Entonces no jalaria
07:40
<gdi2k>
alkisg, do you think this is a flow control issue, or some other more major issue?
07:40
<alkisg>
gdi2k: is the switch full gigabit, or it only has 1 gigabit port? If so, just for the fun of it, try putting the server in a 100mbps port
07:41
<statick>
Complicated purchase a machine with 2 Cores resources
07:41
<gdi2k>
it has 2 1gb ports, the other 24 are 10/00. will try that...
07:41
<alkisg>
gdi2k: it doesn't seem like *only* flow control, the upload speed should be better, but try to run it again because those 108 seconds didn't look OK either
07:42
118 seconds...
07:42
[ 10] 0.0-118.2 sec 10.9 MBytes 772 Kbits/sec
07:42
That should be "10 seconds", not 118
07:43
statick: dual core server with 4 gb ram, switch with at least 1 gigabit port, clients with 128 ram => OK
07:43
statick: OR, pentium4 clients with 1 GB ram => OK for fat clients
07:43
<statick>
Any distro that does not take many resources to try
07:44
<alkisg>
Can you buy DDR RAM for the clients?
07:45
<statick>
My intention is to use Trisquel mini as LTSP Server
07:45
Since only consumes 128 Mb of Ram in the start, at least I think with 4 machines would not have any objection Customer
07:46
<alkisg>
Firefox, iceweasel etc require 500 MB RAM
07:46
So if you don't want Internet, OK
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07:47
<gdi2k>
alkisg, well it's a little better when server is on 100 mb port: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6667245/
07:48
<alkisg>
gdi2k: what nic on the clients? lspci -nn -k | grep -A 2 Ethernet, again
07:48
<statick>
I am a teacher at a primary school in Loja - Ecuador
07:48
With the news of the death of XP, I found no better excuse to talk to the authorities and I will comment on the LTSP project
07:48
Apparently they are not interested in spending a few dollars on a machine with sufientes server resources to make
07:48
<alkisg>
statick: buy RAM then, that's what we're doing here. We put LTSP in about 500 schools...
07:49
With 100-150 euros you can make it work efficiently
07:49
If you want to run with 128 RAM and with no good server and no good switch, then leave XP, it's better
07:50
<statick>
What are the ideal resource for LTSP Server 12 Customers of the above resources
07:50
<alkisg>
It's better to buy RAM for the clients than to buy a new LTSP server
07:51
And it's cheaper too
07:51
Schools need multimedia apps, thin clients don't work well with multimedia apps, so better go for ltsp fat clients
07:51
!fatclients
07:51
<ltsp>
fatclients: You may find some info about the Ubuntu/LTSP implementation of fat clients at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients
07:51
<gdi2k>
alkisg, nearly all of them have onboard nvidia based NICs, like this: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6667263/
07:52
<statick>
Ubuntu did not much interested in using
07:52
With 250 Mb of Ram customers would not have any problem
07:54
<alkisg>
gdi2k: are those gigabit or 100mbps?
07:54
(the NICs, not their connection to the switch...)
07:54
<gdi2k>
gigabit, but running on 100 mbps switch ports
07:55
(I thin there may be 1 - 2 that are only 100 mbps
07:55
<alkisg>
gdi2k: I'd strongly suggest on investing on a full gigabit switch then, many NICs have severe problems in mix-speed networks and they all go away in true gigabit
07:55
gdi2k: is that switch managed?
07:56
Maybe you could disable flow control if it is...
07:56
(because on the server, your dlink/realtek nic won't support disabling flow control)
07:56
<gdi2k>
it's "Smart" so I think it may have such settings... will check. I also have a gig switch, but it's unmanaged and super cheapo nasty
07:56
ok
07:56
<alkisg>
gdi2k: forget the smart one, immediately put the cheap one :)
07:57
<statick>
Gracias
07:57
<gdi2k>
ah, effort, effort... hehe. I'll be back...
07:57
<statick>
Tranks
07:57
<alkisg>
you're welcome statick
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08:00
<alkisg>
!kvm
08:00
<ltsp>
kvm: Virtual thin client: kvm -vga vmware -ctrl-grab -kernel /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/vmlinuz -append "append ro initrd=initrd.img init=/sbin/init-ltsp root=/dev/nbd0 ip=:10.160.67.10::" -initrd /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/initrd.img -no-shutdown
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11:18
<alkisg>
!alkisg-todo
11:18
<ltsp>
alkisg-todo: (#1) upload fixed nbd-server package in the PPA, or (#2) implement LDM_[PRE|IN|POST]SESSION_CMD, or (#3) LDM password hash, or (#4) Check ltsp bugs in debian.org, or (#5) nbd-disconnect isn't called at all because the cmdline changed, no nbdroot=
11:19
<alkisg>
!forget alkisg-todo 5
11:19
<ltsp>
The operation succeeded.
11:19
<alkisg>
!ltsp-todo
11:19
<ltsp>
I do not know about 'ltsp-todo', but I do know about these similar topics: 'ltsp5-todo'
11:19
<alkisg>
!ltsp5-todo
11:19
<ltsp>
ltsp5-todo: "fix nbd-disconnect"
11:19
<alkisg>
!forget ltsp5-todo
11:19
<ltsp>
The operation succeeded.
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19:22
<ogden>
Hey quick question hopefully since i've been looking into LTSP. If I'm running in a fatclient LTSP setup but im wanting non persistent storage so that the machines are fresh on every reboot how can I accomplish this? such that in a lab when someone mucks up the machine they just reboot it and voila its working again.
19:23
<vagrantc>
kiosk mode does this
19:23
you could probably run kiosk mode with a windowmanager instead of a web browser
19:24
<ogden>
so get it setup so it pushes lightdm into kiosk mode?
19:25
didnt even think of that.... thank you kindly :)
19:25
<vagrantc>
no, just the window manager
19:25
although it would be easier
19:25
to just set it up to use lightdm and pam_mkhomedir
19:26
<ogden>
that would require an ldap environment though right?
19:27
I'm just looking to move my lab enviroments from window/deep freeze to a linux freeware alternative
19:27
<vagrantc>
you want users to have their own logins?
19:27
<ogden>
windows*
19:28
<vagrantc>
kiosk mode just does autologin
19:28
instead of lightdm, you might try "nodm"
19:28
that's basically a display manager that only does autologin
19:29
<ogden>
no the users don't need any persistent storage and they are unknown (walk in environment) so i wont have accounts for anyone
19:29
<vagrantc>
that's pretty easy, then.
19:29
<ogden>
hmm ill look into that as well, thanks for the reading points :)
19:30
<vagrantc>
you'll need to set DEFAULT_DISPLAY_MANAGER=/usr/bin/lightdm or DEFAULT_DISPLAY_MANAGER=/usr/bin/nodm in order to get ldm to not log in
19:30
and add a user in the chroot, and configure lightdm/nodm to autologin as that user
19:31
<ogden>
but even in the chroot data will persist between boots correct?
19:31
<vagrantc>
data in the chroot will persist, but data from the booted client will not... :P
19:32
so anything you do to the chroot, will persist. but when you boot a client, it doesn't hvae write access to the files- it only does writes in a ram-based filesystem.
19:32
well, doesn't have write-access to the files on the server, that is
19:33
<ogden>
ahhh, that makes sense, so it looses everything since it was a ramdisk
19:34
<vagrantc>
i might have missed some detail, but that should basically do it.
19:34
<ogden>
you've put me into the path and thats all i was needing. thank you very much for the help!
19:38
<vagrantc>
happy to help when i can! :)
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20:01
<vagrantc>
!ltsp5-todo
20:01
<ltsp>
Error: "ltsp5-todo" is not a valid command.
20:02
<vagrantc>
!vagrant-todo
20:02
<ltsp>
vagrant-todo: pxemenus
20:02
<vagrantc>
!alkisg-todo
20:02
<ltsp>
alkisg-todo: (#1) upload fixed nbd-server package in the PPA, or (#2) implement LDM_[PRE|IN|POST]SESSION_CMD, or (#3) LDM password hash, or (#4) Check ltsp bugs in debian.org
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20:38
<vagrantc>
!vagrantc-todo
20:38
<ltsp>
I do not know about 'vagrantc-todo', but I do know about these similar topics: 'vagrant-todo'
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23:12
<alkisg>
Happy new year to all :)
23:20
<vagrantc>
not for me yet :)
23:21
alkisg: i was thinking of calling the next upload ltsp 5.5 (or 5.5.0 ?)
23:21
<alkisg>
vagrantc: I think there were many changes, and now on it'll mostly get backported bugfixes, so I think it's a good idea (I thought of that myself too)
23:22
<vagrantc>
should've done it with 5.4.6 ...
23:23
<alkisg>
!alkisg-todo
23:23
<ltsp>
alkisg-todo: (#1) upload fixed nbd-server package in the PPA, or (#2) implement LDM_[PRE|IN|POST]SESSION_CMD, or (#3) LDM password hash, or (#4) Check ltsp bugs in debian.org
23:23
<alkisg>
!forget alkisg-todo 2
23:23
<ltsp>
The operation succeeded.
23:24
<alkisg>
!learn alkisg-todo as implement INITRD_CMD, INIT_CMD, RC_CMD, DM_CMD, LOGIN_CMD, LOGOUT_CMD etc
23:24
<ltsp>
The operation succeeded.
23:24
<vagrantc>
alkisg: regarding nbi images and whatnot, i'm really wishing we'd implement a plugin infrastructure
23:25
<alkisg>
vagrantc: for nbi, I think we can just provide an ipxe.nbi and call it a day, but for the rest, yaboot etc I've no clue how they work
23:26
Are those similar to nbi? Whole kernel and image and kernel parameters in one tarball/
23:26
<vagrantc>
alkisg: exactly ... having plugins would allow us to only implement the common use-cases, while still allowing sysadmins to implement additional plugins.
23:26
alkisg: yaboot is more like pxelinux
23:26
the file syntax is even quite similar
23:27
but the wide array of arm platforms ... eesh.
23:27
<alkisg>
The plugins would be called from the update-kernels hook, right?
23:27
<vagrantc>
that's what i was thinking
23:28
<alkisg>
And the hook itself is distro specific...
23:28
<vagrantc>
yes, it would make it easier for distros to implement their own hooks
23:28
<alkisg>
OK yup it makes sense
23:30
vagrantc: is that for ltsp6?
23:30* vagrantc is pondering a quick little rewrite just splitting the current code up into snippets
23:31
<alkisg>
So you'd keep the nbi code, even if on a snippet?
23:31
<vagrantc>
might drop support officially, but it makes it easy for an end-user to add back in
23:32
<alkisg>
CMDLINE_NBD=${CMDLINE_NBD:-"root=/dev/nbd0 ip=dhcp"} => why ip=dhcp? That invalidates IPAPPEND 3...
23:32
<vagrantc>
it doesn't invalidate it for me...
23:32
<alkisg>
(same for NFS... and, we should put a default for AOE)
23:32
ip=dhcp doesn't make the client request a lease?
23:33
<vagrantc>
if you use ipappend, it should use the last ip= argument
23:33
and since it's appended...
23:33
IPAPPEND 3 will always show up last
23:33
<alkisg>
ip=dhcp is the default though, so why put it there at all?
23:34
<vagrantc>
and i guess initramfs-less NBD isn't possible..
23:34
for those values, i'm pretty sure i just used the defaults
23:35
<alkisg>
./client/Debian/etc/ltsp/update-kernels.conf:CMDLINE_NBD="root=/dev/nbd0"
23:35
./client/share/ltsp/update-kernels:CMDLINE_NBD=${CMDLINE_NBD:-"root=/dev/nbd0 ip=dhcp"}
23:36
<vagrantc>
it's been in update-kernels for over a year and a half :P
23:36
<alkisg>
Haha, sorry, I've just noticed that :D
23:36
<vagrantc>
and yes, both debian and ubuntu apparently don't need it
23:37
<alkisg>
I don't think we need ip=dhcp anywhere at all
23:37
And I've tested not putting initrd=initrd.img, you were right, it's not needed either
23:37* vagrantc nods
23:38
<vagrantc>
alkisg: my recent commits look ok?
23:38* alkisg didn't see them, checking now...
23:39* vagrantc subjects alkisg to a new year of ltsp coding
23:40
<alkisg>
Haha, here we say that the whole year will be similar to the first day... so I'm doomed to 1 year of ltsp coding :D
23:40
`printf '%s' "$s"` => wow, I thought you hated backquotes..
23:40
<vagrantc>
alkisg: oh, i do
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23:41
<vagrantc>
alkisg: that's just code i tested once, and felt bad about it sitting un-used all these years
23:42
<alkisg>
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ltsp-upstream/ltsp/ltsp-trunk/revision/2529 => line 19 there, EOF` => backquote needs to be deleted
23:42
<vagrantc>
oy.
23:44
you sure?
23:44
<alkisg>
Aaah sorry no I'm not sure
23:44
The code there is a little complicated imho... let's see
23:44
`printf '%s' "$s"`
23:44
Isn't that the same as:
23:44
$s
23:44
?
23:45
<vagrantc>
seems like it should be
23:46* vagrantc wonders if the EOF is needed there too
23:47
<vagrantc>
ok, i'll really need to test this now...
23:48
<alkisg>
modelines="$mode $modeline
23:48
$modelines"
23:48
...instead of the cat/EOF combination
23:51
<vagrantc>
oh boy, i got a little overambitious with committing that
23:52
<alkisg>
Btw, now with xorg.conf.d, maybe we could simplify the whole xorg.conf generation code in the future?
23:52
<vagrantc>
i think i didn't commit it all this time because it was a bit hard to read
23:52
alkisg: yeah... i *think* that's upstreamed?
23:52
<alkisg>
No idea, I hope so
23:57
<vagrantc>
xorg.conf.d has been around at least since mid-2010 in some upstream xorg projects
23:58
late 2009
23:58
<alkisg>
There are also some new options in xorg.conf that we could expose as lts.conf directives... preferredmode etc
23:58
<vagrantc>
seems to be when it was introduced
23:58
this is starting to sound ambitious
23:59
and i was hoping to upload ltsp 5.5 today :)
23:59* alkisg was talking about ltsp 6 :)