IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 11 April 2012   (all times are UTC)

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06:00
<elias_a>
Good morning!
06:01
An hour to our webinar. alkisg and his colleague Yannis Siahos will tell us how their system is done.
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06:01
<elias_a>
You are all welcome to join us online: http://educoss.blogspot.com/2012/04/webinar-on-linux-terminal-server.html
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08:07
<elias_a>
Quite few people in the webinar...
08:09
<knipwim>
shame i have to work myself
08:09
i can't even listen in :(
08:10
<Hyperbyte>
knipwim, I had to turn off the company firewall for Adobe Connect to ... connect.
08:10
Luckily those are things I can do. :P
08:10
<knipwim>
hehe :)
08:12
<elias_a>
Well - I recorded the session.
08:14
Hyperbyte: Can you drop me an email? I have to ask some background info from participants.
08:14
Normally I use a Gdocs form but noticed too late that it is of course in Finnish...
08:15
<Hyperbyte>
elias_a, what do you want to know about me?
08:15
<elias_a>
age, education, regular blahblah like that...
08:15
Hyperbyte: If that's ok?
08:16
<Hyperbyte>
elias_a, why not do it in here?
08:16
<elias_a>
Hyperbyte: It is so much easier that I send all participants the link to the form I am going to translate.
08:17
<Hyperbyte>
There were a total of three participants if I'm not mistaken?
08:17
<elias_a>
It is click and go-solution :P
08:17
Hyperbyte: No, some left before you came. Fortunately...
08:17
<Hyperbyte>
Plus, I was there for 10 minutes and I lurked a little....
08:17
<elias_a>
Ermmm... I mean....
08:18
Some left before you came.
08:18
Hyperbyte: So it worked OK in a terminal?
08:18
Hyperbyte: Was it a thin client?
08:20
<Hyperbyte>
Yessir.
08:20
:)
08:20
With 1920x1080 display. I would've expected flash to lag more, but video seemed very smooth.
08:21
<elias_a>
That is actually unbeliveable... :O
08:21
<Hyperbyte>
What I don't like is that it couldn't tell me "I'm trying to connect to connect.adobe.com port 1234 and it doesn't work"
08:21
<elias_a>
No, really, there is not much video information.
08:21
<Hyperbyte>
It just says connection failed, so rather than opening a single port which is allowed, I had to open up my entire network.
08:21
<elias_a>
The quality is quite low.
08:21
<Hyperbyte>
So just for that I'd never use it again.
08:22
<elias_a>
Hyperbyte: Don't you have to use RTMP for other purposes?
08:22
<Hyperbyte>
elias_a, I have no idea what RTMP is.
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08:23
<Hyperbyte>
But I can tell you I rarely use Adobe solutions for anything web.
08:23
<elias_a>
Hyperbyte: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Time_Messaging_Protocol
08:24
The problem is that the protocol is used in some streaming systems, too.
08:25
For example the Finnish Broadcasting Corporation used it at least some time ago.
08:25
<Hyperbyte>
elias_a, I honestly couldn't care less about RTMP.
08:26
<elias_a>
Hyperbyte: Ok.
08:26
<Hyperbyte>
You posted a link here, I clicked it, it didn't work without me opening something in my firewall, but it didn't say what.
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08:27
<elias_a>
Hyperbyte: Just being curious - is it a company network?
08:27
<Hyperbyte>
elias_a, I am at work.
08:27
=)
08:29
<elias_a>
Hyperbyte: Ok. The reason for asking is that here in Finland the use of conferencing software is so wide spread that it is impossible to keep the RTMP ports closed.
08:30
There was a big mess and nagging going on about it 2-3 years ago.
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08:46
<Hyperbyte>
elias_a, :-)
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09:19
<mealstrom>
hi, im trying to use nfs4 to mount home directories, can some one help me this ? my system mounts home dirs with sshfs even with NFS_HOME option
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09:45
<mealstrom>
look like /home wasnt empty
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12:12
<Hyperbyte>
Hi
12:12
I'd like to make an offtopic statement, which may or may not invoke intelligent discussion and/or flame wars.
12:13
SOAP is the most horrible implementation of a good idea, ever.
12:13
Thank you for your attention.
12:14
<stgraber>
;)
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12:23
<mealstrom>
has anyone mounted /home as nfs share?
12:24
<alkisg>
Sure
12:24
<mealstrom>
nice :D , have you tried to mount it as nfs4 share ?
12:24
<alkisg>
Yup
12:25
<mealstrom>
via NFS_HOME and NFS_HOME_OPTIONS at lts.conf ?
12:25
im using FAT_CLIENT configurations
12:25
<alkisg>
Yes
12:32
<elias_a>
alkisg: Thank you once again for the session!
12:32
<alkisg>
elias_a: you're welcome, thank you too
12:32
mealstrom: if you have questions, please ask them here, not in PMs
12:33
<mealstrom>
alkisg: ok
12:33
lts.conf: : NFS_HOME="192.168.2.244:/" NFS_HOME_OPTIONS="proto=tcp,port=2049,rsize=32768,wsize=32768,bg,user,exec
12:34
nfsserver export: /export/users 192.168.2.0/24(rw,sync,no_subtree_check,anongid=2000,fsid=0)
12:34
when user logins -- home directory is mounted via sshfs
12:34
<alkisg>
distro/version?
12:35
<mealstrom>
ltsp server : ubuntu 10.04 i386 , fat-client ubuntu 10.10 i386
12:36
<alkisg>
!SCREEN_02
12:36
<ltsp>
alkisg: SCREEN_02: To get a root shell on an Ubuntu thin client: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ClientTroubleshooting#Using_a_shell_SCREEN
12:36
<alkisg>
Can you mount your nfs /home from there, before login?
12:36
(manually...)
12:37
<mealstrom>
yes. i can
12:37
<alkisg>
With what command line?
12:37
<mealstrom>
mount -t nfs4 -o proto=tcp,port=2049,rsize=32768,wsize=32768,bg,user,exec 192.168.2.244:/ /home
12:37
-t nfs4 -- is ok, ive updated it at /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/share/ltsp/ltsp-init-common
12:39
clientmachine: cat /etc/mtab 192.168.2.244:/export/users/username /export/users/username fuse.sshfs rw,nosuid,nodev,max_read=65536,allow_other 0 0
12:40
<alkisg>
And getltscfg -a returns the correct lts.conf values?
12:40
<mealstrom>
alkisg: yes, lts.conf is correct on client machine
12:41
<alkisg>
Can you pastebin the output of getltscfg -a ?
12:41
You can also do that from a localxterm, to paste it more easily...
12:41
!localxterm
12:41
<ltsp>
alkisg: localxterm: Any applications that you launch on a thin client actually run on the server. However, if in a client you run 'ltsp-localapps xterm', a local xterm will open, and any commands that you enter there will be executed locally on the client.
12:42
<alkisg>
Or you can scp the output to your server, whatever's easiest for you
12:43
<mealstrom>
LDM_DIRECTX="True"
12:43
LDM_SESSION="gnome-session"
12:43
NFS_HOME="192.168.2.244:/"
12:43
TIMEZONE="Europe/Kiev"
12:43
LTSP_FATCLIENT="FALSE"
12:43
NBD_SWAP="false"
12:43
NFS_HOME_OPTIONS="proto=tcp,port=2049,rsize=32768,wsize=32768,bg,user,exec"
12:43
CONFIGURE_X="True"
12:43
that what ive got on getltscfg -a
12:47
<alkisg>
I'm not sure if NFS_HOME can work with LTSP_FATCLIENT=False
12:48
...where was configure_home called from? (it's been removed in 12.04...)
12:48
Ah, ltsp-client-setup
12:50
Btw did you run ltsp-update-image after the nfs4 change?
12:50
<mealstrom>
FAT_CLIENT only unset LOCALDEV , set SOUND=false
12:50
yes
12:50
ive'run it 4 times when was trying with nfs4 configs
12:52
users on server at /etc/shadow have homedirs like /export/users/usernames
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12:55
<alkisg>
mealstrom: try eval $(getltscfg -a); . /usr/share/ltsp/ltsp-init-common; configure_home
12:55
...and see what error messages you get
12:56
You said that you don't have NFS mounted before login, right? So do that from SCREEN_02...
12:58
<mealstrom>
ive done nfs mount before login. and after user logins it make sshfs
13:00
home isnt mounted
13:06
if [ "$NFS_HOME" = ${NFS_HOME#*:/} ] -- error if nfs_home=192.168.2.244:/
13:06
but home is mounted if i run just configure_home function
13:08
<alkisg>
Ah OK I see
13:09
Put quotes around that
13:09
"$NFS_HOME" = "${NFS_HOME#*:/}"
13:10
<mealstrom>
this fix error, /home is mounted
13:10
if i do it manually
13:11
<alkisg>
Modify the script and run ltsp-update-image
13:11
mealstrom: also file a bug about it, as it still affects upstream (compatibility) code
13:11
!ltsp-bug
13:11
<ltsp>
alkisg: ltsp-bug: To file a bug report for upstream LTSP, go to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp
13:12
<alkisg>
Ah no, it doesn't, it just has : now
13:13
<mealstrom>
ltsp doesnt support -t nfs4 at mounting, ive updated some files to support this. Ill 've result at 10 minutes if this worsk
13:13
<alkisg>
In 12.04 NFS_HOME is deprecated
13:13
You just put FSTAB_0 to 9 lts.conf options for whatever you want
13:14
<mealstrom>
this is at 12.04 only, ive got 10.04 server and 11.10 client
13:14
<alkisg>
Yes
13:14
<mealstrom>
*10.10
13:14
<alkisg>
But you can easily do that in 10.04 too, with an RCFILES_01 script
13:14
Or with CONFIGURE_FSTAB=False
13:17
<mealstrom>
omg, i will test nfs home via fstab after image-update will end.
13:18
alkisg: thank you for help
13:18
<alkisg>
np
13:27
<elias_a>
alkisg is our hero!
13:29
<mealstrom>
nah, nfshome fix didnt help. trying fstab
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15:05* alkisg waves to vagrantc
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15:06* vagrantc waves
15:06
<Phantomas>
Hello there! :)
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15:13* Hyperbyte waves to everybody!
15:13
<elias_a>
:D
15:14
Seems like the tsunami is here... :P
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16:21
<sbalneav>
Morning all.
16:24
<ogra_>
!s
16:24
<ltsp>
ogra_: s: Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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16:26
<alkisg>
sbalneav: /j #ltspweb
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16:31
<knipwim>
alkisg: what's ltspweb about?
16:40
<elias_a>
sbalneav: Morning... :P
16:41
<jammcq>
!seen gadi
16:41
<ltsp>
jammcq: gadi was last seen in #ltsp 14 weeks, 1 day, 1 hour, 2 minutes, and 21 seconds ago: <Gadi> :)
16:41
<jammcq>
whoa
16:41
<ogra_>
at least he smiled
16:42
<jammcq>
ogra_: howdie
16:43
<ogra_>
hey hey
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19:48
<JensenDan>
Hello again guys.. i did a fresh install and set up ltsp.. now its working like a charm.. BUT, now i have one problem. when i connect the rest of the net, it serves ltsp service on the wrong eth, how to change that?
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19:55
<vagrantc>
there's impatience, and then there's impatience...
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20:46
<markit>
mm dnsmasq does not start automatically
20:46
I do hate this "service" stuff, I'm lost
20:47
dnsmasq[1294]: impossible access to /etc/dnsmasq.d: so strange
20:47
mmm in fact is not there
20:47* markit wonders whty
20:48
<markit>
urgh, I do remember
20:48
ehm :) sorry for the noise
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20:48
<markit>
was a testing vm, vandalized to try to find out why squid3 was killed by dnsmasq :)
20:48* markit going to restore previous backup asap
20:48sepski is now known as Guest90194
20:49
<markit>
alkisg: I want to test if this bug is really solved: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/+bug/237732 (you marked as Invalid)
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21:02
<alkisg>
markit: there are 2 bug trackers in launchpad
21:03
One for ubuntu-specific bugs, and one for upstream ltsp bugs
21:03
I just changed the bug tracker from the ubuntu one to the upstream one
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21:16
<markit>
I read it quickly, seemd a but related to kde
21:16
I remember ubuntu was able to notify usb insertion, kde not
21:16
and I tried to convince dev to take care about it
21:16
but no one cared in chat
21:17
or was too complicated since ltsp dev had not time to investigate kde problem, and kde dev did not know about ltsp "details"
21:22
aptitude full-upgrade: 403 Forbidden [IP: 193.206.139.34 80] wondering if is a squid3 issue :(
21:26
mmm I've disabled fat client and now login is really slow, video image is corrupted etc
21:27
does not sound good
21:28
the bottom taskbar is the only element ok
21:28
if I run a program, it's window is like split in 2 or 4
21:28
with colors messed up
21:30
REISUB
21:30
would be sad that I've tested only FAT so far, and thin is broken
21:31
<alkisg>
markit: you've written so much that I lost track of what your actual problem is
21:31
Thin clients work fine here...
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21:32
<markit>
not here...
21:32
I've tried to login with a different user
21:32
just in case the FAT login broke something
21:32
I've forgot the password
21:32
I entered wrong the first time, and I was put back to ldm login
21:32
I entered again wrong, and I got a BLACK screen
21:33
<alkisg>
So you have a graphics module problem?
21:33
<markit>
REISUB again
21:33
well, when booted as FAT worked fine
21:34
<alkisg>
Right, so the graphics module only appears on remote X, ok
21:34
*problem
21:34
Try with another client then, or disable modeset, the usual stuff for X problems
21:36
<markit>
is really normal that video stuff works fine as "standalone" and not as thin? Isn't the same kernel / video driver?
21:37
urgh, image corrupted also in my netbook (with lan boot)
21:37
let me check lts.conf
21:38
<alkisg>
Do you mean after you login?
21:38
<markit>
let's comment out X_SMART_COLOR_DEPTH=True
21:38
<alkisg>
It's true by default, so that won't help
21:39
<markit>
in fact :(
21:40
yep, I login correctly, I've the bottom taskbar perfect
21:40
but desktop or every program I run is "ruined", let me send you a photo
21:40
<alkisg>
markit: so, set X_SMART_COLOR_DEPTH=False
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21:40
<alkisg>
What are you using? kwin?
21:40
Does that use compositing?
21:41
If so, try to disable it
21:41
<markit>
ehm, and set MARKIT_PLS_BECOME_SMARTER=true
21:41
<alkisg>
(instead of changing the color depth)
21:41
<markit>
I'm a bit in panic :)
21:41
<alkisg>
That should make it go faster too
21:41
Yes, you need to slow down
21:42
<markit>
it works !! !
21:44
ok, so for fat worked since was defaulting to 32 bit
21:44
but 16 for thin
21:44
<alkisg>
Yes, that's a graphics module problem
21:44
But I think it's better to solve it by disabling compositing
21:44
<markit>
why X_SMART_COLOR_DEPTH=False should make it work faster? more bit depth = more bandwidt
21:44
<alkisg>
It'll go faster
21:44
No I didn't say that
21:45
I said to keep X_SMART_COLOR_DEPTH=True, the default,
21:45
<markit>
"It'll go faster"
21:45
<alkisg>
and to find a way to disable compositing INSTEAD of setting X_SMART_COLOR_DEPTH=False,
21:45
because THAT will make it go faster
21:45
I.e. to keep 16 bit color depth
21:45
<markit>
I see
21:45
btw, kde should autodetect video capabilities and disable composition
21:46
and I was sure to have disabled it on global settings, but probably I'm wrong
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21:46
<markit>
thanks a lot for the help, having ltsp broken would have been a disaster
21:46
I'll have to deploy a thin solution next week
21:46
<alkisg>
First google hit, try that: "One way to enable/disable compositing in KWin 4.7.0 is via System Settings > Desktop Effects > tick/untick ‘Enable desktop effects at startup’ > Apply."
21:46
<markit>
this time for job... they asked a GNU solution to the company I work for
21:47
<alkisg>
Cool!
21:47
<markit>
alkisg: I know, but I have to do it globally, and seems does not work (it did in 11.04)
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21:47
<markit>
yep, cool... they have 12 pc with ubuntu "stand alone" now
21:48
with 9.x I suppose
21:48
btw, in thin pluggin the usb stick did not made the notification work
21:48
<alkisg>
I'm not using localdevs, no idea about that
21:49
<markit>
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/+bug/237732 is about this issue
21:49
so should be kept open, no?
21:49* markit will dig about localdevs later
21:49
<alkisg>
It is open...
21:50
<markit>
ah, sorry
21:50
in ubuntu is invalid
21:50
now I understand what you said
21:50
I read only the bottom line wondering if there were news about it
21:50
and misunderstdood, as usual :(
21:51
<alkisg>
No worries, at least in the end you understand and try to do the right thing :)
21:51
<markit>
I'm newbie in too many fields, so ashaming
21:51
<alkisg>
I'm waiting for .deb packages out of you in a couple of years :D
21:51
<markit>
hahaha, don't dare install them
21:51
probably they would eat your pc
21:52
seriously there are many situations where I would love to help
21:52
and that with a little work will improve a lot
21:52
like fix sankoré italian translations
21:52
or something like that
21:52
but get involved in a project takes so much time
21:52
<alkisg>
But it's time well invested
21:53
<markit>
and I've only some hours late after dinner
21:53
<alkisg>
While writing a script is only good for local installations
21:53
Btw, did you try ltsp-pnp? If you're using fat clients, it should make your life easier...
21:53
<markit>
yep, but having local children use GNU is very rewarding for me
21:53
do you want to add one more thing ? :)
21:54
I'm already in troubles, lol
21:54
<alkisg>
Maybe one more, maybe 10 less, dunno, your calll
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21:54
<markit>
I was thinking about a VM to have installed in a laptop of my collegue
21:54
to go around in schools and show... but should be fat+thin client enabled
21:55
but let me take note of what I learned tonight about that lts.conf parameter
21:55
I've a broken memory
21:56
<alkisg>
markit: if teachers ask you how to install programs in fat clients, what do you tell them?
21:56
<markit>
I tell them "don't worry, you don't need it" ;P
21:56
in fact even updating chroot for thin is not easy
21:56
i.e. yesterday teacher updated the server
21:56
and new epoptes got installed
21:57
<alkisg>
In fact, that's why all greek schools will now stop using chroots :)
21:57
<markit>
so I had to explain her how to update chroot and rebuild image
21:57
<alkisg>
It's hard for teachers to maintain chroots, even with automation scripts
21:57
<markit>
really?
21:57
I mean
21:57
my teacher are not able to install programs in any case
21:57
if you have a teachy teacher
21:57
<alkisg>
Not even from software-center?
21:57
<markit>
is easy with ltsp-chroot
21:58
they have plenty of sw installed they don't know about
21:58
is so sad
21:58
if commercial softwar is promoted they want it
21:58
but probably it does what they already have but don't know
21:58
and never took care of check
21:58
<alkisg>
Some teachers here click on the "update chroot" menu. The installation starts. Then their network connection fails and the installation is broken.
21:58
<markit>
like gcompris has 130+ activities for small children
21:58
<alkisg>
...they don't care, they go to the next menu "update image"
21:59
...and then they ask why the clients won't boot anymore
21:59
<markit>
as usual :(
21:59
<alkisg>
That's why we won't be using chroots anymore, let them use only GUI tools
21:59
Software-center, synaptics or whatever else they like
22:00
<markit>
but then the installation will fail graphically
22:00
<alkisg>
Yes, but they understand that
22:00
<markit>
and they will rebuild the image graphically
22:00
<alkisg>
They know graphical failures from windows
22:00
<markit>
and everything will be graphically broken
22:00
isn't it so MAD?
22:00
we have gone beyond the alarm level
22:00
<alkisg>
I did put a "ltsp-publish-image --revert" option, to get them back to the previous image that worked ;)
22:01
<markit>
yep, but people need to know more about software
22:01
<alkisg>
Well, actually software needs to become a lot smarter
22:01
<markit>
"program or be programmed" :)
22:01
also true
22:01
but I'm realizing that they don't even imagin what sw is
22:01
they think of it like a phisical stuff
22:02
I've installed ABC is like I have abc on my table
22:02
but abc on the table has not 100.000 instructions that do what you can't imagin
22:02
that's also why they don't care about free software
22:03
they don't understand the issue
22:03
also they don't understand viruses
22:03
trojans
22:03
"google for program X, download and double click on the .exe" stuff
22:03
children are told "don't accept candis from strangers"
22:04
but they accept code from strangers like were normal
22:04
because they don't know about this stuff either the basic principles
22:04
ok, enough ranting for today :)
22:04
probably you have an "ignore markit ranting" button somewhere
22:05
you need it :)
22:05
<muppis>
No, just trying to avoid interrupt..
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22:11
<markit>
muppis: yep, I often feel guilty for that
22:11
<muppis>
Have a good night. I'll try catch some sleep.
22:17
<markit>
alkisg: I've found that just did not disabled globally composition, now it works with X_SMART_COLOR_DEPTH=True, but the image is "not good", really... maybe 24 bit is a good compromise
22:26
<alkisg>
markit: what do you mean "not good"?
22:27
And, there's no 24 bit, it's 32 bit
22:27
So it's double the bandwidth
22:27
24 bpp is very rare
22:33
<markit>
I've set
22:34
X_COLOR_DEPTH = 24
22:34
that is good for fat and thin, hoping to save bandwidth
22:34
alkisg: I mean that you have fake colors
22:34
a black border around dialog windows
22:34
gradient very ugly
22:34
etc.
22:34
<alkisg>
markit: disable shadows etc in your KDE
22:35
And file bug reports for any problems that you see
22:35
<markit>
kde has a thousand effects :)
22:35
<alkisg>
65000 colors are good enough for gradients, if KDE can't use them then it's a problem
22:35
<markit>
yep, is what I thought
22:35
btw, do you have kde too and can test (not right now, I mean when you have spare time)?
22:36
<alkisg>
I have KDE in my daughter's laptop, but nah, I won't be testing LTSP with KDE, no time to test other DEs
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23:42
<markit>
alkisg: luckly found some dev that gave me some attention... their themes are designed for 32 bit. You can find a theme that works good with 16 (like, urgh, M$Win-like one)
23:42
or find someone that can produce a nice 16 bit one
23:42
that's their tips
23:43
<alkisg>
markit: I don't believe that there's noticable difference between 16bpp and 32bpp
23:43
<markit>
if you know a greek student with artistic talent and good skill...
23:43
<alkisg>
The problem is in software, broken rendering
23:43
E.g. shadows aren't a matter of art
23:43
<markit>
[01:03] <Sho_> no, if you can't do 8bit per channel your system is broken
23:43
[01:03] <Sho_> again, it's not a use case we care about
23:44
[01:03] <Sho_> and 65k colors aren't good enough if your colorscheme is monochromatic and does things like radial and vertical gradients in the window bg, there's just not enough hues in 16bit to make that pretty
23:44
<alkisg>
Right, they don't care, not that our system is broken
23:44
Really? Try it in gimp
23:44
Open gimp and do a gradient
23:44
Shows up fine
23:44
Or open a photo in 16bpp
23:44
The problem is in their graphics libraries, they're broken
23:44
<markit>
I trust you, but can't argue against them, I've always found kde dev very unfriendly
23:45
[01:39] <tsdgeos> since this is a -devel channel
23:45
[01:39] <tsdgeos> what are *you* doing to fix it?
23:45
end of discussion :)
23:46
I'll report a bug, end of the story
23:46
and use 24 bit
23:46
<alkisg>
Just tell them that gnome shows up fine in 16bpp
23:46
For years now. I hope that doesn't break with unity...
23:47
<markit>
or CleanLooks style, is not that bad indeed
23:47
I've told them, lol
23:48
so homework for tomorrow: find the package that has cleanlook, make sure my scripts install it, and find a way to set it globally, at least for thin clients
23:48
(so makes even easier know if the pc is thin or fat)
23:49
thanks a lot, good night :)
23:49
<alkisg>
Good night markit
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23:49
<markit>
ah, if you are curious: http://www.wstaw.org/w/12J3/
23:49
(vertical scroll bar is bad, strange colors around current icon, etc)
23:50
<alkisg>
Yes, broken libraries
23:50
<markit>
:)
23:50
<alkisg>
Even the horizontal large lines are a broken vertical gradient
23:50
<markit>
yep, and if you play a little a lot of visual stuff becomes broken
23:51
so maybe is not "only visual"
23:51
the only true thing is
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23:51
<markit>
that kde has very limited resources
23:51
so they have to focus in the more important
23:51
and few people is 16bit
23:51
so can't blame them too much
23:52
'nite
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23:52
<alkisg>
If it's Qt to blame, then Qt should have plenty of market with 64k, with mobile devices etc
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