IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 6 April 2018   (all times are UTC)

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06:58
<fiesh>
alkisg: did you actively change to systemd-udevd instead of udevd on the fat client image? now our backup doesn't work any more :(
06:59
I'd like to revert that change and get rid of #%()*@( systemd
06:59
or possibly gentoo just did that by some update accidentally
06:59
<alkisg>
fiesh: no idea about it; was that pulled by dracut?
06:59
fiesh: how do I check if I have it here on my image?
07:00
(like, dpkg -l systemd*)
07:00
<fiesh>
just see if /sbin/udevd exists, vs /lib/systemd/systemd-udevd
07:01
<alkisg>
I have systemd-udevd only
07:01
<fiesh>
hmm ok, gentoo must have done that somehow
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07:01
<fiesh>
I'll hopefully figure it out, thank you :)
07:01
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1068906-start-0.html
07:01
haha
07:01
<alkisg>
If there's something similar to /var/log/apt/history.log, it could tell how if it was pulled with dracut...
07:02
Ah that means you got the normal udev sent by systemd, as all other distros? :D
07:02
You can't escape!
07:03
<fiesh>
systemd fills a much needed gap in the GNU/Linux ecosystem
07:04
<alkisg>
Oh, I surely agree; I don't even understand the need for different distros :D
07:04
Different metapackages, sure, I can understand the need for thousands of them; but different distros, meh
07:05
<fiesh>
meaning you expect everyone to use the same binary packages?
07:05
ah in gentoo I have to mask udev and systemd, and it'll revert to eudev
07:05
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Gentoo_Without_systemd
07:06
<alkisg>
Installation methods can vary; if someone wants to install from source, sure, he can do that; but the upstream software is the same, and it's a shame that there's so much fighting over just how to package it
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07:07
<alkisg>
If we could add them up, I'm guessing it would be millions of hours of debate and development time, that could be put to better use elsewhere...
07:08
<fiesh>
surely you agree development can also be accelerated by taking different routes?
07:08
I think creating a monoculture is not necessarily more efficient, it usually leads to a stalemate
07:08
just look at window, half its awfulness comes from their desperate wish to remain backwards compatible
07:08
<alkisg>
Upstream development accelerated by varied distro packaging? No, I believe the exact opposite, it hinters development when as upstream I have to support each distro quirk
07:09
<fiesh>
well they aren't really, but to an impressive degree they are. if there were a totally-not-backwards-compatible windows branch, it might be much less shitty
07:10
I think LTSP is a special case here because it's so distro-dependent
07:10
<alkisg>
I don't think backwards compatibility is the main reason different distros exist...
07:10
<fiesh>
no, but different distros exist because of different focuses
07:10
like gentoo wants to stay very customizable, which is great for some users but sucks for the vast majority I'd say
07:10
<alkisg>
Oh, you can't believe how many hours are spent developing debian/ packaging dirs for all the applications
07:11
It's not just ltsp. And then they develop .spec files for redhat and what build recipes you have in gentoo etc etc
07:11
When if this was standarized, they could all be provided by upstream, end of story
07:11
I do hope appdata will help there
07:12
<fiesh>
but there are inofficial standards that do exactly that, namely certain build systems
07:12
most commonly autotools (yuck) and cmake
07:12
they make building software from source a kind-of-standard experience
07:12
<alkisg>
Those only take care of compiling, not of installing and integrating
07:12
E.g. in debian there's /etc/default; which doesn't exist in other distros
07:12
And a whole infrastructure with debhelper around it
07:13
And the developer would then need to learn how to handle it; and that's just a tip of the iceberg of the debian/ dir
07:13
<fiesh>
what developer? I don't think there's much software that needs to know the distribution it's running on
07:14
even things like databases don't really care
07:14
<alkisg>
Oh, all packages need to know. From the kernel and xorg to systemd etc
07:14
<fiesh>
what? the kernel doesn't care about /etc
07:14
<alkisg>
That's why distros keep maintaining a .diff for each upstream package
07:15
You'd think; but in debian, there's a system of postinst callbacks after each kernel update
07:15
<fiesh>
and I don't think xorg does that much either, it has its standard paths it searches for configuration files etc.
07:15
<alkisg>
And there's /etc/modprobe and a whole lot others
07:15
<fiesh>
oh wow
07:15
well I guess I don't know debian well enough
07:15
<alkisg>
The console in xorg is defined in /etc/default/keyboard
07:15
So debian needs to patch xorg so that it looks there
07:15
*the layout
07:15
<fiesh>
ok, but that's debian's "fault", xorg doesn't have to care
07:16
if they want to do it that way, their choice
07:16
<alkisg>
Debian says "we need a standarized location, we don't want every package to put its config wherever it wants"
07:16
That would be a good thing, IF it was a cross-distro standard so that THEN all software would respect it
07:16
Now that it's distro-specific, it gets messy
07:17
I'm sure redhat does similar things, but I don't know it well enough to give examples
07:17
<fiesh>
I agree that standards would be good there
07:17
but that's different from having one monolithic distro
07:17
one distribution to rule them all
07:18
<alkisg>
So, if there was a "packaging standard" similar to posix or to FHS, then packaging and compiling and everything would be taken care of by upstream itself
07:18
So then a distro would be a snapshot+fix backporting, of software available at a time of a release
07:18
<fiesh>
by upstream you mean the individual software developer of each project?
07:19
<alkisg>
Yes
07:19
kernel, xorg, libreoffice and whatever
07:19
<fiesh>
but that's totally unfeasible
07:19
they'd have to support every architecture
07:19
every build type
07:19
<alkisg>
Of course not
07:19
<fiesh>
debug, release, etc.
07:19
then how would you do it?
07:19
<alkisg>
Some of them already provide appdata dirs
07:19
Those are almost enough information for packaging
07:19
<fiesh>
and who compiles the software?
07:19
<alkisg>
The compiling and distribution would not be handled by upstream, but by the distro
07:19
<fiesh>
oh I see
07:20
ok, that would be doable, I agree
07:20
<alkisg>
So if the distros had one repository (of course that supported all arches) and the same freeze/release points,
07:20
then "different distros" would basically only mean "different selection of packages"
07:20
Much, much easier for all...
07:21
<fiesh>
and different compile options
07:21
turning on and off features of software
07:21
and of the compiler
07:22
<alkisg>
Sure
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07:32
<fiesh>
without an authoritative governing body, that's just not going to happen :)
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07:48
<alkisg>
well... systemd history proves otherwise
07:48
If enough effort is put in a specific infrastructure etc, hard to replicate elsewhere... that effort wins
07:49
But a cooperation model between 2-3 major distros would make things a lot easier, sure
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10:35
<nehemiah>
alkisg: I found out that the issue, I talked about with you yesterday has to with the encrypted LVM. Generating a new initramfs using mkinitramfs fixes the issue. I have no idea if this workaround would break other things.
10:41
<alkisg>
nehemiah: nice :)
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11:07
<sunweaver>
vagrantc: alkisg: I raise severity of a Debian bug regarding LTSP just now.
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11:07
<sunweaver>
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=892626 -> serious (RC)
11:08
we really would love to remove FreeRDP 1.1 from Debian...
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12:09
<fiesh>
alkisg: is /root somehow treated specially? the ssh keys I put in there so that hooking up a hard disk to a client automatically starts the backup over udev with rsync over ssh aren't present, and thus the backup isn't triggered
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12:29
<alkisg>
sunweaver: thanks! Hopefully vagrant will find some time to do an upload...
12:29
fiesh: /etc/ltsp/ltsp-update-kernels.excludes has entries for which files to exclude from the generated image
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12:29
<alkisg>
/root/* is excluded by default; if you need it there, you can put it
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12:30
<fiesh>
alkisg: ah yes, thank you!
12:40
<sunweaver>
alkisg:
12:40
alkisg: ok
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13:35
<mmarconm>
its possivel to use ltsp with userful ( multiterminal )
13:44
<alkisg>
mmarconm: whatever runs linux *locally* can use ltsp
13:44
Can your clients run linux locally?
13:46* alkisg implemented proper multiseat support in ltsp a couple of years ago...
13:48
<mmarconm>
Good, i wll test
13:50
<alkisg>
Some companies were offering "zero clients" that just run a network stack locally, no real OS, so no linux support at all
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20:02
<vagrantc>
sunweaver: hey, sorry for not tackling the freerdp2 issue ...
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