IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 3 March 2009   (all times are UTC)

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00:10
<alkisg>
Yeeeeeah!!! `ethtool -A eth0 autoneg off rx off` actually works, I now have 600Mbps overall bandwidth with seven 100Mbps clients! :) This is life-saving, someone should put it on the wiki.
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02:06
<asmok1>
Hello, ogra?
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02:10
<asmok>
Hello again, ogra?
02:12
I have Jaunty Alpha 5 online and ready do some more testing if you/somebody want so
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02:12
<asmok>
Bug is this one: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/335767
02:14
Yes I know it is early morning in here Finland...
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02:31
<asmok>
I'll be back later in afternoon, bye.
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03:17
<JosefAssad>
moin
03:23
I was wondering, does the LTSP community consider any particular study to be recommended to someone who is interested in cost advantages of LTSP over, say, Linux fat clients or a Windows-based network?
03:23
I'm guessing the cost advantage issue arises frequently wrt LTSP...
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04:01
<Appiah>
JosefAssad: that would be very intressting
04:02
haven't seen one =/
04:02
<JosefAssad>
Really?
04:03
Hm. Well I'll tell you what. If I can talk this client into an LTSP architecture, I'll see if they will release a TCO estimation. They're pretty open.
04:04
<ogra>
you want a TCO overview for thin client setups ?
04:04
<Appiah>
In the future I hope I can do the same
04:04
<ogra>
there are many
04:04
<Appiah>
ogra: for just LTSP? or thin client setups in general?
04:05
<ogra>
http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/serveredition/technologies/ltsp
04:05
click the "recent studies" link
04:05
thats about the best thing out there imhp
04:05
*imho
04:06
shows mainly the "green" factors though, there should be 100s of TCO studies wrt maintenance ...
04:06
(google is your friend ;) )
04:06
<Appiah>
"wrt" ?
04:07
<ogra>
with regard to (an abbreviation you use to type less :P )
04:07
<Appiah>
ah ;)
04:08
well green factors is big factor these days
04:09
<ogra>
right, thats why i focused on it in the ubuntu page when i wrote that stuff with our marketing guys ...
04:10
<Appiah>
ogra : have you seen the [Ltsp-discuss] "Beware Ethernet Flow Control" ?
04:10
<ogra>
only with half an eye
04:10
i dont do much ltsp work anymore, stgraber took over most of my duties
04:11
<Appiah>
ah oki
04:11
well I'm gonna try to look into to that more ...
04:11
<ogra>
but its known that managed switches can cause bad probs :)
04:12
<Appiah>
ye but the thing here seams to be on the servers NIC
04:12
<ogra>
that didnt change since the very first ltsp implementation
04:12* ogra will look at the thread if he finds time later
04:13
<ogra>
i thought i read someone who ran managed cisco switches ....
04:13
<Appiah>
it's really intresting if it REALLY improves the network ~10 times
04:13
but ye , I'll look into it myself later on
04:14
<ogra>
"Turning off Flow Control (using the web interface on our Netgear smart
04:14
switches) made it so one terminal's network traffic doesn't affect the
04:14
rest of the terminals."
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04:33
<JosefAssad>
ogra: very useful, thank you
04:33
I tend to think the whole green thing gets overplayed wrt IT...
04:33
I do a lot of enterprise IT and it usually boils down to consolidation/virtualisation
04:34
don't see a lot of Intel Atoms in the data center yet :)
04:36
and yes, there's a chance I should be shot for using expressions like "enterprise IT"... :/
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05:22
<alkisg>
I've just created an ubuntu wiki page for the ethernet-flow-control problem, suggestions (e.g. for where to put the `ethtool -A` command) are greatly appreciated: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FlowControl
05:29
<sep>
are there any methods for avoiding sabotage ? eg one user makes himeself with copy paste a 170000 pages openoffice document and crawls the server
05:30
i was thinking different cpu schedulers or similar. but any other methods ?
05:31
<alkisg>
sep, with ulimit?
05:32
<sep>
for each and every user ?
05:32
could probably be done
05:33
<alkisg>
I think if you put a CPU limit per shell, it affects all users
05:33
But I've never done anything like that, just read about it, so I can't help! :)
05:37
sep, in Ubuntu it's in /etc/security/limits.conf
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06:11
<muttley>
how use a normal ubuntu desktop installation as ltsp client
06:11
?
06:12
<Appiah>
hmm
06:12
on gdm you can select login to server
06:12
after enabling it
06:13
it will use xdmcp then
06:13
you might need to enable it on the server
06:13
<muttley>
i try the command: X -query host
06:14
but i see only the cursor
06:14
<Appiah>
?
06:15
<muttley>
how does ltsp client work if xdcmp disabled?
06:16
<Appiah>
http://www.yolinux.com/TUTORIALS/images/gdmsetup_XDMCP.gif try that
06:17
<muttley>
thank you...
06:17
but i don't understand how ltsp server work without xdmcp disabled?
06:17
<Appiah>
on the client
06:18
<muttley>
xdmcp is disabled on ltsp server by default?
06:19
<Appiah>
no idea
06:20
<muttley>
thank you anyway
06:23
<alkisg>
muttley: xdmcp is disabled by default, and ltsp doesn't use xdmcp
06:23
(disabled = at least on my ubuntu...)
06:24
<muttley>
ok, and what procol use ltsp
06:24
<alkisg>
muttley: ssh -X, or ssh -Y if LDM_DIRECTX=true
06:25
And also pulse for sound, ltspfs, ldm and some other things
06:25
<cyberorg>
Appiah, muttley we use X over ssh, so xdmcp is not required
06:25
<muttley>
i would connect with a "fat client" on my lstp server
06:25
now understand
06:26
<Appiah>
either you launch each application with ssh -X
06:26
or you setup your gdm to login to that server
06:26
(xdmcp)
06:26
<ojsat22>
can anybody point me to afaq/tutorial on how to connect freenx/no machine to ltsp? is it possible?
06:27
<alkisg>
Can ltsp-client be installed in fat clients? (in the supported distros) ?
06:27
It would be nice if it could...
06:28
<Appiah>
in ubuntu there's a ltsp-client package if im not mistaken
06:28
<alkisg>
Yes, but I think it also involves nbd stuff, so I don't think it would work for fat clients... :(
06:28
<Appiah>
hmm
06:30
<muttley>
i need only remote interface and audio if possible
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06:31* Appiah just got an crazy idea
06:31
<Appiah>
launch a second x-server , have it use gdm with xdmcp to connect to the ltsp-server
06:32
<devilbues>
Hi can anybody help me? I have this thin-client geode graphics based driver and it freezes after a while when using USB mouse
06:32
with ps/2 mouse works fine
06:32
<Appiah>
so you can switch between local comp and ltsp-session with alt+f7 / alt+f8 or whatever
06:32
devilbues: does it stop once and never works again , or does it freeze/unfreeze ?
06:33
<devilbues>
never works again, I have to reboot the thin client. Usually this happens after screensaver kicks in
06:34
<muttley>
(i try...)
06:34
<Appiah>
did you try to go to console and check dmesg when the mouse stopped working devilbues ?
06:35
<devilbues>
Appiah, nopes
06:35
<Appiah>
you might find something
06:35
<devilbues>
I'll try that
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06:47
<muttley>
but in run-level of ltsp client what is the command for start remote login manager?
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08:01
<wigwam>
hello
08:02
after changing ip address of my ltsp server, thin clients booting fails... tftp timeout
08:02
plz what have to be changed after changing IP?
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08:05
<mushroomblue>
wigwam: I usually had to update ssh keys
08:05
and update image
08:08
Yesterday, I learned that Virtualbox 2.1 and LTSP don't play nice together
08:09
PXE boots awesome
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08:10
<mushroomblue>
but once it gets into the OS part, it dies dishonorably
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08:37
<alkisg>
Is there any way to run gdm remotely, without using `X -query server` (i.e., without the need to enable XDMCP in the server)? I tried `ssh -X server` and then `gdm`, but it didn't work...
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08:39
<ogra>
alkisg, gdm has an ssh mode ... but you need to run it locally
08:41
<alkisg>
ogra, you saw all this LTSP-lite discussion in the mailing list? I thought it'd be easy to at least get a gdm and sound in non-ltsp distros... But running gdm locally would need lots of RAM :(
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08:41
<ogra>
right, not much less than ldm
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08:42
<ogra>
that lite discussion is moot ...
08:42
<alkisg>
(and also the users's list would have to be transferred etc)
08:42
It would be nice though if ltsp-client was an addon for standard PCs
08:42
<ogra>
you either go back to ltsp 4.x completely (which seems to be the attempt in that thread) or you put some effort into making the distros lighter
08:42
<alkisg>
E.g. something that a user could run from a gnome menu to connect to an ltsp server...
08:43
<ogra>
tsclient ?
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08:43
<mushroomblue>
anyone know why I would get "permission denied" upon logging into X with a user?
08:44
apparently, the password is being authenticated correctly.
08:44
<alkisg>
Well, ssh -Y and setting PULSE environment variable could be done from a simple script, but usb devices would need root permissions, right?
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08:45
<ogra>
alkisg, yeah, you can go back 4years :P
08:45
ldm used to be a simple script
08:45
alkisg, neither ldm nor X are the probs
08:45
yu need a lightweight kernel
08:46
<cyberorg>
how do i specify ldm to start X with -br ?
08:46
<ogra>
in the wrapper script somewhere iirc
08:47
and i'm pretty sure it does that by default
08:47
<cyberorg>
intel 845 hangs if X is not started with -br
08:48
<ogra>
ogra@osiris:~/Devel/ltsp/ldm-trunk$ grep "xinit " screen.d/ldm
08:48
xinit $xinitrc /usr/sbin/ldm -- ${DISPLAY} vt${TTY} -auth ${XAUTHORITY} ${X_ARGS} -br >/dev/null 2>&1
08:48
its the default ... (since two years at least)
08:48
<cyberorg>
yes saw that too :)
08:49
<alkisg>
ogra, a different thought: couldn't ldm be completely avoided? E.g. `ssh -l gdm_special_user -X server` and then run gdm remotely? This would make LTSP both easier to maintain and to port to different distros... (or I'm probably saying stupid things... :P)
08:49
<cyberorg>
so probably X -configure does not create proper xorg.conf for those clients, locally installed system work fine
08:49
will investigate more
08:49
<ogra>
alkisg, sure, put some years of work into redesigning everything :)
08:50
<alkisg>
Yeah, you got a point there...
08:50
<ogra>
alkisg, as i said ldm, X and the like are not your prob
08:50
distros use a mostly generic kernel that requires a lot of ram
08:50
make the distros build a thin client specific kernel and you can easily work with 32M
08:51
<alkisg>
Even with new (2.6) kernels?
08:51
<ogra>
in fact ubuntu clients can boot and run ldm/X with 32M
08:51
i tried that out when i implemented compcache in the ubuntu kernel
08:51
you cant use any additional features though
08:52
and with jaunty it might not work anymore simply because dbus and hal are a hard requirement now
08:52
but i had it working in intrepid
08:52
<alkisg>
I see... thanks a lot, ogra!
08:52
<sbalneav>
Morning all
08:53
<ogra>
!s
08:53
<ltspbot>
ogra: "s" is Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
08:54
<mushroomblue>
hah. I'm having difficulty getting intrepid-based ltsp to authenticate users.
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09:00
<alkisg>
Where's a good place to insert this command? `sudo ethtool -A eth0 autoneg off rx off` ? In an "up" section of /etc/network/interfaces ?
09:01
<ogra>
no, in the initramfs
09:02
<alkisg>
ogra, to be ran on the server...
09:02
<ogra>
oh, yeah, if-up.d
09:02
<alkisg>
k, ty
09:03
(That's probably the most important command for mixed-speed 100/1000 networks :))
09:04
<ogra>
/etc/network/if-up.d/openssh-server seems a good script to start from
09:04
<alkisg>
Ah, yeap, that looks fine.
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09:08
<asmok>
Hello, if I can help to test this bug (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/335767) here I am. Jaunty Alpha 5 is updated&upgraded
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09:09
<asmok>
This time my thin client is HP Mini, works fine with Jaunty (sound and screen 1024x600)
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09:19
<asmok>
And here is usb stick:
09:19
root@ltsp202:~# fdisk -l /dev/sdb
09:19
Disk /dev/sdb: 8213 MB, 8213305856 bytes
09:19
255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 998 cylinders
09:19
Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes
09:19
Disk identifier: 0x00074fa0
09:19
Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System
09:19
/dev/sdb1 1 998 8016403+ b W95 FAT32
09:19
root@ltsp202:~#
09:20
No pop up icon...
09:20
<mushroomblue>
I think PAM hates me
09:20
I try to add a user to the image via chroot
09:21
when I try to boot my thin client, it gets to a full GDM login, and fails on "Permission Denied"
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09:23
<mushroomblue>
anyone have a clue?
09:25
<NeonLicht>
mushroomblue, does your user have permission to ssh the server?
09:26
<mushroomblue>
that's a good question. lemme check.
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09:26
<jammcq>
good morning #ltsp
09:26
<mushroomblue>
NeonLicht: as in, they should be added to the ssh group?
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09:32* mushroomblue buys NeonLicht a beer
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09:41
<NeonLicht>
mushroomblue, I'm more of a wine type XDD
09:42
mushroomblue, as in "should be able to log in to the server by ssh" :-)
09:43
mushroomblue, I, for instance, authorize it via /etc/ssh/sshd_config
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11:06
<chrisjrob>
anyone know what "rpc failed: 2" means on client boot? this is a new debian lenny install. can't seem to get passed this error and google has not been my friend!
11:25
<sbalneav>
Probably something NFS related, I'd expect.
11:26
Is the chroot exported? Check your /etc/exports, and that the nfs server is running
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11:32
<chrisjrob>
apologies for the re-post - i was disconnected. anyone know what "rpc failed: 2" means on client boot?
11:33
it gets passed the loading initrd.img stage, says booting kernel, then waits for a few minutes, then
11:34
after confirming all the correct ip config it fails with the rpc failed: 2 message
11:34
<knipwim>
the original reply to your question:
11:34
18:12 < sbalneav> Probably something NFS related, I'd expect.
11:34
18:13 < sbalneav> Is the chroot exported? Check your /etc/exports, and that the nfs server is running
11:35
<chrisjrob>
thanks knipwim appreciated...
11:36
the /etc/exports says "/opt/ltsp *(ro,no_root_squash,async,no_subtree_check)"
11:37
and nfsd is running.
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12:09
<the>
i need some clarity on ltsp5(ubuntu) about how weak clients can be.
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12:10
<_UsUrPeR_>
the: go ahead
12:11
<the>
I have an ltsp5 setup that works fine with a compaqEN SFF box and 128MB ram but not with an old HP Vectra that has 64MB ram.
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12:12
<_UsUrPeR_>
the: what happens when you try to boot the HPs?
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12:13
<the>
the HPs use a boot floppy. I get the string of dots and then "DONE" and it freezes.
12:13
tailing syslog shows it's trying to send the client a 151MB image file.
12:13
choke...
12:14
the clients have no disk.
12:16
<ogra>
if the clients use the ubuntu kernel they should work with 64M
12:17
<the>
ogra: where does that 151MB image go on a client with 64MB of ram?
12:17
<ogra>
though if you say you see dots that sounds like its uncompressing its own kernel from floppy, try a rom-o-matic floppy image instead, that way they will get the ubuntu kernel which uses compcache to compress parts of the ram
12:17
its not transferred if it uses the right technique ... its mounted
12:17
<the>
it is a rom-o-matic image, but not a new one. I'll try that next.
12:17
<ogra>
the 151 image is the readonly image carrying your filesystem
12:18
<the>
admittedly, i harbor a little baggage with ubuntu's uber-automated ltsp.
12:18
<ogra>
on boot a tmpfs gets created in ram, the tmpfs and readonly image get merged to a writable rootfs
12:19
<the>
that rootfs runs on the server then, correct?
12:19
<ogra>
so you only use the amount of ram the network block device client actually needs plus some overhead for the aufs merge
12:20
no, it runs in ram on the client, in the tmpfs
12:20
<the>
OK
12:20
<ogra>
but only using the parts of ram you actually need to write system files during boot
12:21
make sure to enable PXE emulation when creating your rom-o-matic image, its easier to handle than etherboot if you want to make changes
12:22
<the>
I dont think the vectras are PXE capable. the nics have an empty slot.
12:22
s/slot/socket/g
12:22
<ogra>
rom-o-matic has a PXE emulation mode
12:23
just check the box, it will use PXE
12:23
<the>
I'll do that now.
12:23
Done here. thanks for the help.
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13:31
<johnny>
ogra, http://www.osnews.com/story/21075/Want_Touch_Book
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13:31* johnny attacks ogra with an arm chip
13:31
<johnny>
take that!
13:31
hehe
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15:01
<mushroomblue>
anyone know why tftp would be complaing about client not accepting options?
15:01
it seems to boot fine on another box, but this HP thin client is making me want to cry
15:01
and that seems to be the only real difference between the two booting, at least according to syslog
15:04
seems like it boots
15:04
I get an xauth message
15:04
then a blinking cursor on a blank screen
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15:38
<vagrantc>
mushroomblue: i've never seen the tftp client options related error stop something from booting
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15:45
<mushroomblue>
vagrantc: it appears you're correct.
15:47
it seems to boot into linux without issue. X just isn't starting.
15:50
it takes 3 times as long for the t5540 to connect to my dhcp server as the other box.
15:51
which was the first weird thing.
15:51
second weirdness being X, I think.
16:01
anyone know if Via OpenChrome9 is supported in Intrepid?
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16:22* mushroomblue sets his thin clients on fire
16:22
<sbalneav>
mushroomblue: Which tftpd server are you using?
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16:26
<mushroomblue>
sbalneav: tftpd-hpa
16:27
sbalneav: should I use atftpd or something?
16:27
<sbalneav>
No tftpd-hpa is what you should use
16:28
This a PXE client or an etherboot client?
16:28
<mushroomblue>
PXE
16:29
it seems to be getting the kernel without issue
16:29
<sbalneav>
I'm sorry, I'm assuming you're still having problems with the tftp side of things. Is that correct? Or are you having an X problem.
16:29
<mushroomblue>
I think it might be an X problem now
16:29
due to the thin client using Via OpenChrome 9 HC3
16:29
which I dunno if it's supported in Intrepid
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16:30
<mushroomblue>
downloading an iso of jaunty to try out on the system. hopefully, it has updated drivers.
16:30
<sbalneav>
Simplest way to test would be to stick a USB cdrom drive on the thin client, and get it to boot an intrepid liveCD with it.
16:30
Then you could test and see if it's using openchrome, or just the vesa driver.
16:30
<mushroomblue>
sadly, my intrepid liveCD is alternate install.
16:30
yeah. I'm gonna test vesa
16:31
and vga, for that matter.
16:31
<sbalneav>
Test vesa, that should shed some light.
16:31
I'm off home for the day, I'll be on later tonight.
16:31
Cheers.
16:32
<mushroomblue>
thanks. :)
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17:14
<nicros>
can anyone here point me in the right direction in setting up Fat Clients using LTSP and openSUSE 11.1?
17:15
the only thing i can find out there is for Ubuntu
17:22
<Lns>
nicros: OpenSuSE has kiwi, might want to try #kiwi-ltsp
17:27
<nicros>
i don't think kiwi is what i want though.
17:29
guess i'll work on getting ltsp working first
17:29
<Lns>
nicros: afaik suse has their own way of doing things that's not really 100% ltsp-compatible
17:29
kiwi is their "imaging technology" that behaves similar to fat clients
17:30
<nicros>
but from what i can tell it still runs on the server, is that correct?
17:30
<Lns>
i don't think so, but seriously you'll want to talk to the suse folk about it
17:31
<nicros>
i'm using pxelinux and nfsroot to boot diskless clients right now. they are no longer supporting nfsroot in opensuse 11.1 so i need to migrate to something else and do the same thing.
17:31
the folks on #suse don't know anything about kiwi or ltsp
17:33
<Lns>
nicros: #kiwi-ltsp
17:33
^^^
17:37
<nicros>
Thanks, i'll try back later
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17:58
<Gadi>
mushroomblue: did you say you have chrome9 hardware?
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19:25
<sbalneav>
win 8
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21:06
<markstos>
I have a meeting with the school system IT director in the morning to discuss introducing Linux thin clients into the local school system. They currently plan to speed $800/station for 2,000 leased computers. (That's $1.6 million dollars). Any suggestions for framing the conversation are welcome.
21:13
<sbalneav>
Have you had any experience deploying LTSP?
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21:21
<markstos>
I have set up demo labs, with 1 to 3 clients.
21:21
There is a school 30 minutes away that has a 20 seat lab.
21:23
<sbalneav>
What's their rationale for wanting to spend that amount of money?
21:24
<markstos>
I'll find out. I know the cost was presented as leasing the stations for $160/station/year.
21:25
<sbalneav>
The best way to approach it, IMHO, would be to target the amount of money, the *realistic* dollar savings they may accrue in a thin client scenario, and the better way the money could be apportioned to actually improving the education quality of the students, as opposed to simply leasing a bunch of hardware they won't own. Do they have hardware now that could be re-targetted as thin clients?
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21:28
<markstos>
Yes, I would say of the 2,000 new systems they intend to purchase, they are nearly all replacements, so are candidates to use as thin-clients.
21:28
I'm not sure how standardized that hardware is, or if it has netbooting built-in.
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21:29
<markstos>
I think I will recommend something like thinstation.org.... starting with a Linux-based thin-client OS that can connect to either Windows or Linux terminal servers, so that they can continue to use some Windows based programs they depend on for the short term.
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