IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 20 November 2013   (all times are UTC)

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04:04
<alkisg-android>
vagrantc: can I remove the nbi code? It's been broken for years...
04:06
<vagrantc>
alkisg-android: sure!
04:08
<alkisg-android>
and the nbd-proxy code? :-)
04:08
<stgraber>
alkisg-android: no
04:08
:)
04:09
as far as I know, nbd-proxy isn't actually broken anymore, it's just hard to convince people it's not (not that I care much nowadays)
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04:10* alkisg needs to type more than he can on his nexus :)
04:10
<alkisg>
stgraber: I think nbd-proxy should be a separate package, unrelated to ltsp
04:10
There's already a similar one , xnbd, which allows for much more than nbd-proxy
04:11
Also, afaik nbd-proxy still has a few stability issues
04:11
<stgraber>
that'd probably be a reasonable thing to do if anyone had the time. Maybe you can convince vagrantc.
04:11
<alkisg>
Personally I don't see any point in it existing anymore
04:11
<stgraber>
alkisg: to be honnest I haven't used it in over 3 years, but I think mgariepy would be bitching about it if it wasn't working
04:11
<alkisg>
People that use it should switch to xnbd instead
04:12
I don't think mgariepy is using it either, and even ltsp-cluster isn't actively maintained anymore...
04:12
<vagrantc>
i would be happy to yank nbd-proxy out of ltsp... it never seemed to make sense there. should be it's own source package, at least.
04:12
<alkisg>
(I'd like to strip that out too, but only after we implement the new ltspd, so in many months...)
04:13
<stgraber>
ltsp-cluster is unmaintained, though still used, same goes for nbd-proxy, they both still work, they're not ideal but they're integrated and work today
04:13
<alkisg>
But if noone maintains them, we can't move ltsp forward and still have them in the codebase
04:14
<stgraber>
so for nbd-proxy, I guess I'd be fine having it removed after someone confirms that xnbd just works as a drop-in replacement and that the right hooks are in place in LTSP
04:14
<alkisg>
What if noone cares to do that?
04:14
I.e. what if nbd-proxy has no users at all?
04:16
<stgraber>
I doubt it has no users, the question is how up to date those users are, I suspect most of them are still on Ubuntu 12.04
04:16
<alkisg>
12.04 doesn't use nbd-proxy by default, do you think that someone manually enabled it?
04:16
<stgraber>
I know of a dozen school districts that have it, yes
04:17
when you're talking hundreds of clients on a rather bad school network, spanning multiple cities, that's the only way to keep nbd vaguely in shape
04:17
<alkisg>
Are nbd-proxy users only people that also use ltsp-cluster?
04:17
xnbd-client is also available in 12.04
04:18
<stgraber>
most of those were but not all and there's no dependency between the two
04:18
anyway, I agree that xnbd seems to be the way to go
04:18
we discarded it back when we wrote nbd-proxy because it wasn't actively developped and wouldn't even build at the time
04:18
clearly that changed and it's now in the archive
04:19
so replacing nbd-proxy support by xnbd support would seem reasonable to me
04:19
<alkisg>
OK, so, if nbd-proxy has no maintainer (and no ltsp maintainer), can we go ahead and remove it, and when someone needs xnbd, they'll stand up and send patches to integrate it to ltsp?
04:19
<stgraber>
it also pretends to have better performance than the original nbd
04:19
<vagrantc>
stgraber: but if they're running 12.04, we're not proposing to yank out nbd-proxy from 12.04 ...
04:19
<alkisg>
...or do we have to keep stuff that noone maintains until they're replaced by something equivelant?
04:20
xnbd-proxy also supports local caching, so yeah it does have much better performance if local disk media is available
04:20
<stgraber>
alkisg: my argument is that nbd-proxy isn't broken, so the lack of maintenance isn't a problem. The day it stops building, I'll be glad to spend the 30s required to make it build again :)
04:21
now that's part of your big plan to get rid of C code from trunk, so if you want to do so, which is completely unrelated, I'd recommend swapping nbd-proxy by xnbd and if that works, then I won't mind you killing nbd-proxy
04:21
<alkisg>
I just want all of the ltsp code to have a maintainer
04:21
I don't mind if it is in .c or in .java
04:21
Currently half of it is unmaintained
04:22
So for any changes that we do, we need to care about stuff that we don't really care about
04:22
And it makes further development harder; it makes it tempting to just fork another project from it (I wouldn't want that unless it was the last resort)
04:23
<stgraber>
fine, I'll maintain client/nbd-proxy/* then, which means doing exactly what I've been doing till then :) since nothing links against nbd-proxy and nbd-proxy happiliy builds and works as a simple wrapper to the standard client, maintenance is pretty damn easy ;)
04:23
or you can get away from the pain of having to deal with me as the nbd-proxy maintainer and do the code change required to support xnbd-client so I'm fine with us removing nbd-proxy from trunk, your choice ;)
04:24
<alkisg>
Nope, I end up spending weeks testing things that I don't care about (like localapps, localdev etc) and have much less time to work on stuff that I do care about....
04:24
OK, thanks. What about ltsp-cluster? ....
04:25
...do you think we can just remove it after implementing ltspd, or will we need a drop-in replacement there as well?
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04:27
<alkisg>
Meh, stupid android power savings :P
04:27
<stgraber>
I don't know enough about ltspd to know what kind of work would be needed there and I don't care enough about ltsp-cluster to want to dig into that much more. So killing the config retrieval code if it gets in the way is probably fine.
04:28
it may also end up being trivial integrating the ltsp-cluster config retrieval code with ltspd, I don't know.
04:28
<alkisg>
It should be trivial, yeah, but it would need someone using ltsp-cluster to test it
04:28
Nice, thanks :)
04:28
<stgraber>
maybe ping mgariepy see if he cares. I suspect that it should only take a minimal effort to get the two integrated considering how dumm the ltsp-cluster config is
04:28
(it's basically a wget and you get a lts.conf format thing out)
04:29
<alkisg>
Yeah ltspd would offer more power than that
04:29
It should be quite trivial to implement -cluster config with ltspd
04:35
stgraber: btw, using squashfs over a single nfs-mounted file is just 10% slower than nbd... that would solve those schools stability issues, right? I could write a wiki page for that instead of integrating xnbd...
04:36
That only needs a couple of configuration lines to be changed...
04:36
<vagrantc>
really?
04:36
<alkisg>
Yup
04:36
<vagrantc>
just the cached compressed blocks makes it that much faster?
04:37
that sounds like a much simpler approach
04:37
<alkisg>
squashfs compression = about 2.5 times smaller, and there's no file system meta overhead
04:37
<vagrantc>
because you're essentially dealing with a single file
04:37
<alkisg>
Because the squashfs file system has less metadata
04:37
<vagrantc>
ah.
04:38
<alkisg>
But the 2.5 times compression is the most significant part...
04:38
<vagrantc>
so an ext4 image over NFS might still be a mess?
04:38
or other arbitrary filesystem
04:38* vagrantc wonders how btrfs is doing
04:38
<alkisg>
I believe so, yeah, except maybe for compressed btrfs :)
04:39
When I compared comprassed btrfs with squashfs, I wasn't able to measure any changes in the boot time,
04:39
although the compression was less efficient, there were no duplicate file removals, and it has more file system metadata etc
04:40
<vagrantc>
and image-over-nfs would probably handle updates better than NBD
04:40
since the inode would change, the old images would hold the inode even after deletion
04:40
<alkisg>
It should handle disconnects/reconnects a lot better, too
04:41
<vagrantc>
and we come almost full circle...
04:43
<alkisg>
stgraber: I'm ok with you maintaining nbd-proxy inside the ltsp code base, but here's another thought: if it was removed, *then* we it would be more probable that someone would step up and offer patches to integrate xnbd in ltsp :)
04:44
So more people would benefit, since it also supports local caching etc
04:45
<vagrantc>
it belongs in it's own source repository anyways.
04:45
if it were to stick around.
04:46
<alkisg>
I think the problem it tries to address should be solved in the nbd kernel module or userspace tools instead,
04:46
so it has no reason to exist whatsoever,
04:46
while xnbd tries to offer additional functionality, not just more stability
04:48* vagrantc wonders if it supports named exports
04:51
<alkisg>
And btw #2, busybox has an nbd client :D (that doesn't support named exports yet)
04:59
<vagrantc>
heh
05:02* alkisg wonders if pulseaudio saves its volume settings per user or per machine
05:03
<alkisg>
If both, then it would be a reason to always do the sshfs mount...
05:03
<vagrantc>
that could literally be painful
05:03
<alkisg>
Like monitors.xml, which saves the user resolution...
05:04
(per monitor, so it works on multiple PCs with the same /home/username)
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05:06
<alkisg>
vagrantc: from a first glance in ~/.pulse, it appears to save everything there, yeah, even default sink etc
05:09
And I think that the first bit in the file names that it uses, is the dbus machine id
05:09
We should probably generate dbus machine id from the client's mac, so that it's constant between reboots
05:13
tdbdump ~/.pulse/e45c04b0c977d618615dc22d0000000a-stream-volumes.tdb => it even has per-application volume settings there
05:22
<vagrantc>
nice
05:23
<alkisg>
Making dbus machine id = mac+padded with zeroes gives more info on the client (so by looking at some user's .pulse we could find out where he was connected from, over time),
05:24
<vagrantc>
a silent tracking mechanism, most excellent!
05:24
<alkisg>
while generating it from e.g. dmidecode + mac, might give more ...security, in case we need something unique + constant to identify each client, that is unknown to other clients...
05:25
(for secure boot, at some distant future... :D)
05:27
<vagrantc>
secure network booting seems a lot more feasible these days
05:32
<alkisg>
Yup, fat client users get ~/.pulse/dbus-machine-id entries, currently different for each booting of the same client
05:32
I'll change that today to be constant
05:33
...and see if it helps on having per-user stored volume settings
05:41
bbl
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06:35* alkisg is testing pulseaudio volumes on fat clients...
06:35
<alkisg>
The volume is saved across logins, but let's see if it's currently saved across reboots, logically it isn't...
06:38
Nope, it's not, let's see now what happens with a constant dbus machine id...
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06:50
<alkisg>
Hmm, they're not saved if the .pulse/machine-id file existed previously, let's see if it isn't...
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06:55
<alkisg>
Nah... oh well at least having a constant dbus machine id will stop ~/.pulse from being polluted with lots of files...
07:09
Patch: echo "$(ip link show $DEVICE | awk '/ether/{print $2}' | tr -d ':')00000000000000000000" > /var/lib/dbus/machine-id
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07:19* vagrantc just learned another little thing ...
07:19
<vagrantc>
i've been using tr ':' ' ' for ages when i really want tr -d ':'
07:21
<alkisg>
vagrantc: jessie will still support non-pae clients, right?
07:31
...pushed
07:32
On to remove the .nbi code.... :)
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07:33
<mourikis>
Καλημερα Άλκη
07:34
2 θέματα
07:34
1) το θέμα με το μενού του Alice το έφτιαξα (νομιζω) δημιουργώ τους δισκους τωρα
07:35
2) Σχετικά με το κόλημα της ΛΟγκο
07:36
Τελικά οι clients μπαινουν ως διαφορετικοι χρήστες αλλά είδα ότι ανοίγοντας τη Logo δειχνει σε πολλούς οτι είναι ο user1
07:36
θα το τεσταρω σε λιγο αυτό γιατι τώρα έχουν project
07:37
<alkisg>
Καλημέρα mourikis
07:37
!greek | mourikis
07:37
<ltsp`>
Error: "mourikis" is not a valid command.
07:37
<alkisg>
!greek | echo mourikis:
07:37
<ltsp`>
mourikis: greek: Στο παρόν κανάλι μιλάνε μόνο Αγγλικά, για υποστήριξη στα Ελληνικά από την υπηρεσία Τεχνικής Στήριξης ΣΕΠΕΗΥ διαβάστε το http://ts.sch.gr/wiki/IRC και στη συνέχεια πληκτρολογήστε /j #ts.sch.gr
07:38
<Mava>
joo mää oon ihan samaa mieltä sun kanssa
07:38
<alkisg>
vagrantc: I'll remove any references of .nbi images for all distros, and, in the dhcpd configuration, I'll replace nbi.img with pxelinux.0, I think some more recent etherboot versions send client=etherboot but they support pxelinux.0 too
07:41
<vagrantc>
there are recent etherboot versions?
07:42
<alkisg>
No I mean e.g. 5.4 vs older ones
07:42
I don't know from which version they started supporting pxelinux.0 too...
07:44* alkisg supposes that nbi images are broken in all distros, not just in debian/ubuntu...
07:44
<vagrantc>
i think most dhcp setups i do now it uses pxelinux.0 by default, and only specify something else if needed
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07:48* alkisg also removes "wraplinux-nbi" even though he doesn't know what that is...
07:48
<alkisg>
...and I hope distro maintainers don't yell at me too much :D
07:49
/server/configs/dhcpd.conf is different from server/Redhat/configs/dhcpd.conf for no good reason, I think...
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07:51
<vagrantc>
alkisg: supposedly wraplinux worked where mknbi and mkelf-linux didn't? but i think it "worked" for some hardware, by breaking compatibility with other hardware.
07:52
<alkisg>
vagrantc: I think we should completely remove all support for .nbi images, and advice people to use an ipxe.nbi wrapper instead...
07:52
<vagrantc>
i suspect the only sane thing to do with ancient etherboot is to download iPXE :)
07:52* vagrantc nods
07:52
<alkisg>
Let me push to some temp branch what I'm about to commit...
07:54
vagrantc: could you have a look? https://code.launchpad.net/~alkisg/+junk/ltsp
07:55
I'm a bit weary to commit it because it touches many of the files of other distros though... if you could do the honors... :D
07:55
(since you know better the other maintainers, that is)
07:56
Maybe I should send an email to ltsp-developers before committing it?
07:56
<vagrantc>
alkisg: yeah, i don't have time to review and commit
07:56
<alkisg>
ok
08:02
...sent
08:06
<vagrantc>
alkisg: alternately, one could just commit it, and if needed we can always revert it.
08:06
that's part of the point of a revision control system...
08:07
<alkisg>
Sure, but it's a bit intrusive so I feel more confortable by asking first
08:07
<vagrantc>
sure
08:07
<alkisg>
E.g. fedora might reply that wraplinux nbi is still working for them
08:07* vagrantc commends alkisg
08:07
<alkisg>
:)
08:08
<vagrantc>
if wraplinux is still working, it is now present in debian...
08:09
<alkisg>
If I had some nbi-able client I would test, but I don't like seeing the bug report open from 2009 where noone has successfully booted such a client...
08:09
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/+bug/487826
08:13* vagrantc nods
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15:53
<sbalneav>
Morning all
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16:09
<bennabiy>
morning
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18:02
<manolo>
hello
18:02
i am looking for help
18:03
i am trying to set up a ubuntu 12.04 ltsp
18:04
the problem is thin clients with floppy begin to boot
18:04
but they do not finish
18:05
thin clients with ethernet pxe boot
18:06
could anyone help me please?
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18:16
<alkisg>
Sure, we can help you. :)
18:18
<klausade>
alkisg: isn't his problem exactly like #487826 ?
18:20
<alkisg>
klausade: if he's using a floppy, he could just download ipxe.dsk...
18:21
<klausade>
alkisg: he should also hang around a few more minutes ... it's not like he is paying 5€ a minute.
18:22
<alkisg>
Yup, that's what the :) was about!
18:24
<cliebow>
well i learned something anyway..about time 8~)
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