IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 31 March 2017   (all times are UTC)

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11:08
<alkisg>
bennabiy: I'm running the stock Ubuntu 16.04 kernels, which was at 4.4 previously and currently is 4.8
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13:49
<CristianV>
hi everybody. Im experiencing some problems. Firefox sucks on clients and slows the whole system.
13:50
ubuntu mate 16.04
13:50
64 bits
13:51
everything else works fine
13:51
even chrome.
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14:02
<CristianV>
if I run firefox it hangs so bad it prevents other clients from booting. If I run on local server it runs good. problem is on clients.
14:02
<alkisg>
CristianV: are your clients good enough to use as fat clients?
14:02
!fatcvlients
14:02
<ltsp>
I do not know about 'fatcvlients', but I do know about these similar topics: 'fatclients'
14:02
<alkisg>
!fatclients
14:02
<ltsp>
fatclients: Nowadays LTSP supports thin and fat clients. They are both diskless and netbooted from the same LTSP chroot, but while thin clients run the session on the server and transfer the screen, fat clients run the session locally with their own CPU/RAM, thus performing amazingly better. See also !ltsp-pnp and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients
14:03
<alkisg>
!ltsp-pnp
14:03
<ltsp>
ltsp-pnp: ltsp-pnp is an alternative (upstream) method to maintain LTSP installations for thin and fat clients that doesn't involve chroots: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
14:04
<alkisg>
!bandwidth
14:04
<ltsp>
I do not know about 'bandwidth', but I do know about these similar topics: 'thin-clients-bandwidth'
14:04
<alkisg>
!thin-clients-bandwidth
14:04
<ltsp>
thin-clients-bandwidth: A small explanation why thin clients can't perform well with video, lots of screen updates etc: https://sourceforge.net/p/ltsp/mailman/message/35694699/
14:05
<alkisg>
So, what is your client CPU/RAM?
14:10
<Hyperbyte>
Hello alkisg! :-)
14:24
<CristianV>
hey
14:24
sry was away
14:24
no they arent
14:24
I have other ltsp (older ubuntu 10.10) running fine
14:26
maybe this helps, ltps is a vm, if I create a vm to use as ltsp client (just for testing purposes) firefox runs good on that client. but on real clients it doesnt. just firefox
14:29
libreoffice, chrome, file browsing, printing etc... works good.
14:31
<alkisg>
Hi Hyperbyte
14:31
CristianV: firefox switched to gtk3 and produces a lot of screen redraws
14:32
I think there were some options to make it use the older drawing methods, but in general the best solution is to use diskless ltsp fat clients
14:32
<CristianV>
what about client image size?
14:32
it gets to big?
14:32
<alkisg>
The resolution does play a role, yes
14:32
<CristianV>
too
14:33
<alkisg>
Ah you mean the i386.img image size?
14:33
<CristianV>
yeah
14:33
<alkisg>
That size doesn't matter at all
14:33
E.g. we have clients with image size=10 GB and they boot in 30 secs
14:33
<CristianV>
wow
14:33
didnt knew
14:34
<alkisg>
It's like having a 1 TB disk
14:34
The clients still boot fast, because not all the disk is loaded into RAM
14:34
<CristianV>
im goint to give it a shot.
14:34
my clients have 2 gb ram
14:34
cant remember what cpu but its single core small intel cpu
14:35
atom i think
14:35
do you think It could work?
14:50
<alkisg>
CristianV: definately yes
14:50
Just follow the ltsp-pnp guide
14:51
!ltsp-pnp
14:51
<ltsp>
ltsp-pnp: ltsp-pnp is an alternative (upstream) method to maintain LTSP installations for thin and fat clients that doesn't involve chroots: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
14:51
<CristianV>
okok
14:51
thanks a lot
15:18
alkisg just did what says in the document but clients dont boot.
15:18
<alkisg>
CristianV: do a vnc to let me look:
15:18
!vnc-dide
15:18
<ltsp>
vnc-dide: To share your screen with me, run this: sudo apt-get --yes install x11vnc; x11vnc -connect srv1-dide.ioa.sch.gr - this is a reverse connection, it doesn't need port forwarding etc.
15:20
<CristianV>
ok
15:21
there you go
15:24
<alkisg>
There's no dhcp server in this subnet..
15:24
I asked for an ip and I don't get one
15:25
<CristianV>
yes there is a dhcp
15:25
just for known clients
15:25
<alkisg>
Btw why do you have /administrator instead of /home/administrator?
15:25
This will cause you a few issues...
15:25
<CristianV>
because I intended to mount home from an nfs server
15:26
but wanted to have the admin user in a local home
15:26
<alkisg>
OK at least use /srv/administrator to avoid getting that dir into the client image
15:26
Because unknown dirs like /administrator get into the image
15:26
<CristianV>
ok will move later
15:28
<alkisg>
First of all, you missed the ltsp-config dnsmasq step
15:28
Let's see now...
15:29
<CristianV>
yep, I tought I could use my running dhcp
15:29
it's booting
15:29
<alkisg>
dnsmasq is also tftp
15:29
<CristianV>
ooh
15:29
Its running
15:29
<alkisg>
I'll install epoptes, it's a nice tool to control clients, ok?
15:29
!epoptes
15:29
<ltsp>
epoptes: Epoptes is a computer lab administration and monitoring tool. It works on Ubuntu and Debian based labs with LTSP or non-LTSP servers, thin and fat clients, standalone workstations, NX clients etc. More info: http://www.epoptes.org
15:29
<CristianV>
didnt wanted to use epoptes but its ok
15:30
<alkisg>
OK no problem I won't install it
15:30
<CristianV>
I just did lol
15:30
ok
15:30
<alkisg>
Nah it didn't succeed, your dns has issues
15:30
<CristianV>
I have my own dns server, could I use it?
15:32
<alkisg>
Sure put it there
15:33
<CristianV>
there
15:34
<alkisg>
OK
15:34
Now check if the client runs better
15:35
<CristianV>
booting one
15:35
<alkisg>
Btw why don't you like epoptes? Anything I should know? :)
15:36
<CristianV>
nothing special, i have a script that logs clients info on a db and I manage them with x11vnc
15:36
<alkisg>
ok
15:37
<CristianV>
because I have 3 ltsp servers so I dont want to check where the client is
15:37
it's fast for me, I may use epoptes later
15:38
ok im going to add a user so I could login on client
15:38
<alkisg>
You can easily specify that all epoptes clients appear on one server or on one pc
15:38
OK, do so
15:38
<CristianV>
Ok thats good
15:40
alkisg
15:40
you are my new god
15:40
<alkisg>
Hahaha
15:40
Then I guess it's better now? :D
15:41
<CristianV>
Im testing with a "fast" machine, I have to tryout with a normal thinclient
15:41
so, how do I set clients to boot into this new ltsp? like always do? in my old dhcp?
15:42
<alkisg>
Yes
15:42
<CristianV>
so dnsmasq will not interfiere
15:44
<alkisg>
dnsmasq is now in proxy mode, auxilliary
15:44
If you want to manage everything from the other server, let's disable that one
15:45
OK, no dhcp now in dnsmasq
15:46
<CristianV>
Im going to run a test on a thinclient. This runs very good
15:46
so now I dont have a chroot like a normal ltsp
15:48
<alkisg>
Right. You can also do it with a chroot, but usually there's no reason to bother with chroots
15:48
<CristianV>
i like this better
15:48
clients boot fast
15:48
and runs like they never did
15:49
<alkisg>
There are some known bugs in 16.04, but you'll find them soon enough... there are workarounds too
15:49
<CristianV>
what kind of bugs?
15:50
are you staying here? i need to eat something, brb soon.
15:51
<alkisg>
Nah, walk time... :
15:51
<CristianV>
ok, thanks a lot man, you really opened my eyes :D
15:51
cya
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16:16
<cafehh>
Hello @channel
16:17
Just jumping in here to ask how the current status pf the LTSP project is, as the content of LTSP seems pretty outdated..
16:18
... when i look on the website..
16:28
<alkisg>
cafehh: the development is still ongoing; the documentation, not so much
16:28
We lack documentation volunteers
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17:04
<cafehh>
just asking if someone use LTSP with current distros, how are the experiences with Thin- / Fat-Clients to support browsing, local sound, local usb-ports for each setup..
17:04
well thank you alkisg for your answer.
17:06
as we (a lokal internetcafe) plan to setup new hardware, we are interessted in print accounting & billing
17:09
so for this we need a good management-setup wich includes blocking of terminals, ording, different tarif structures and of cause, a modern ui, and what we found are abandoned, ugly, far from beeing easy compiling, ... all dev nightmares you can think of..
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17:15
<vagrantc>
cafehh: in general, we've been recommending LTSP fat clients
17:16
cafehh: but i don't know off the top of my head what sort of software would support accounting, billing, enabling terminals on a timer
17:17
cafehh: epoptes can lock clients remotely, but it's a manual process
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17:18
<vagrantc>
cafehh: with fat clients, anything that runs on a locally installed computer should work fine with LTSP
17:20
<cafehh>
hmm, yes i have seen epoptes.. have to ask there if its possible to extend the software with plugins..
17:23
because of long time standby (while running) its really a matter of energy price, so we would use if any is possible middle hardware like pokini, integrated mini-pc (with VESA-mount). What are the backdraws of using small thin-clients when it comes to browsing, stream watching (youtube), skype..
17:25
we talking here of an amount of 7 Client-PC nothing in a range of a company size..
17:26
plus the main server..
17:44
<vagrantc>
watching video is very network intensive on thin clients
17:44
because the server decompresses the video stream and then sends it to the client uncompressed
17:44
essentially
17:44
audio is kind of cumbersome
17:45
a lot of software isn't designed in a way that works well on thin clients anymore, especially if you're doing any multimedia
17:46
some hardware marketed as "thin clients" would actually be fine to use for fat clients, as well.
17:46
you need more ram, and a little more CPU power... that's about the only difference
17:50
<cafehh>
ok, but i can for example, boot a fat client and mount the home dir from the server (n additional services) on top of a aufs and run the fat client in a guest-mode / read-only mode like from cd / usb ?
17:53
most of our users want to be "anonymous" n use the guest-mode and not a own user-account, for this we use a limited account on Win10 currently wich are reset on current state after customer logs out.
17:55
and really win10 is a maintenance nightmare... thats why i throwed in LTSP.. as possible sollution
18:11
so for seven pc, what is the recommended network bandwith if 2-3 thin-clients using streaming and maybe one is skyping?
18:15
<alkisg>
!thin-client-bandwidth
18:15
<ltsp>
I do not know about 'thin-client-bandwidth', but I do know about these similar topics: 'thin-clients-bandwidth'
18:15
<alkisg>
!thin-clients-bandwidth
18:15
<ltsp>
thin-clients-bandwidth: A small explanation why thin clients can't perform well with video, lots of screen updates etc: https://sourceforge.net/p/ltsp/mailman/message/35694699/
18:15
<alkisg>
!cheap-client
18:15
<ltsp>
cheap-client: (#1) http://www.gearbest.com/tv-box-mini-pc/pp_343636.html, or (#2) https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/New-arrival-Beelink-Pocket-Z83-Windows-10-Mini-PC-Z8300-64bit-1-84GHz-2GB-RAM-32GB/1871240_32640039781.html
18:15
<alkisg>
cafehh: don't use thin clients. Use fat clients.
18:15
For 2-3 fat clients, a normal 100 mbps network is more than enough
18:16
To implement guest mode in ltsp, you need a script with 10 lines
18:16
!guest
18:16
<ltsp>
I do not know about 'guest', but I do know about these similar topics: 'greek'
18:17
<alkisg>
...i don't have the link handy, but you can google it, I posted it a few years ago in the ltsp discuss mailing list
18:19
<cafehh>
thx alkisg, thats a really interessting link, ok that is a reason to use fat clients vs thin-cl. ones
18:20
does it make sense to compile a special (reduced) kernel for fat clients to fit their requirements?
18:22
Do you have any experience with that intel mini-pc you linked to @alkisg?
18:22
<||cw>
last time I found it usefult o compile a trim kernel I was dealing with a system that only had 24MB ram
18:23
<cafehh>
well i think, at least every system like a trimmed kernel for loading over network..
18:24
backdraw would be if you replace the clients hardware.. but for that I could still have a std kernel in the back ..
18:26
that sounds like a embedded ARM system @| | cw
18:26
<||cw>
in a modern kernel most things are modules anyway, so you might only save a couple MB. it does make sense to make a custom initrd in some cases
18:29
<cafehh>
thanks for all your answers :) I think i will dive deeper into the LTSP code to find the answers I looking for our special requirements.
18:30
but to setup a updated management n billing system I see myself a couple of sleepless night coming :(
18:30
have a nice evening @ all
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19:09
<vagrantc>
for the record, with any remotely recent hardware, i suspect the human-hours spent compiling a custom kernel (and the number of iterations to get it right) will far outweigh whatever minimal gains you might expect to see from it
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19:17
<qqqqqqqqq9>
how do i regenerate the entries in /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/amd64/pxelinux.cfg/ ?
19:31
<Hyperbyte>
!ltsp-update-kernel
19:31
<ltsp>
I do not know about 'ltsp-update-kernel', but I do know about these similar topics: 'ltsp-update-kernels'
19:32
<Hyperbyte>
!ltsp-update-kernels
19:32
<ltsp>
ltsp-update-kernels: http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/maverick/man8/ltsp-update-kernels.8.html
19:37
<vagrantc>
though technically, that only re-copies the files generated in the image
19:37
to regenerate the files in the chroot and/or image, you need to re-run /usr/share/ltsp/update-kernels within the appropriate environment
19:38
and edit the corresponding chroot/image /etc/ltsp/update-kernels.conf appropriately to make adjustments
19:38
with recent versions, you can remove the symlink and create a custom pxelinux.cfg/default
19:38
with older versions, it would get rewritten
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19:43
<qqqqqqqqq9>
vagrantc: Do you mean, it copies /opt/ltsp/amd64/boot/pxelinux.cfg/ to /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/amd64/ ?
19:43
<vagrantc>
qqqqqqqqq9: yes
19:44
qqqqqqqqq9: but any time you update a kernel or initramfs in the chroot, or update any package that triggers an update, the files in /opt/ltsp/... will also get updated by /usr/share/ltsp/update-kernels
19:45
qqqqqqqqq9: so, do you just want to regenerate them, or do you want to customize them?
19:47
<qqqqqqqqq9>
My problem is, i don't have an /opt/ltsp/amd64/boot/pxelinux.cfg/ but an /boot/pxelinux.cfg/ . The latter should not be generated, should it?
19:48
<vagrantc>
qqqqqqqqq9: are you using ltsp-pnp methods?
19:48
!ltsp-pnp | echo qqqqqqqqq9
19:48
<ltsp>
qqqqqqqqq9 ltsp-pnp: ltsp-pnp is an alternative (upstream) method to maintain LTSP installations for thin and fat clients that doesn't involve chroots: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
19:51
<qqqqqqqqq9>
I think I mixed something up, i tried to use the chroot-part of https://wiki.debian.org/LTSP/Howto but with dnsmasq and nbd.
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20:42
<qqqqqqqqq9>
ok, I'm giving up for today. Thanks
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