IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 28 August 2008   (all times are UTC)

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01:00
<johnny>
anybody about?
01:01
i'm wondering what i shoulod be seeing under Beginning X session in my ldm.log
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01:21
<cyberorg>
johnny, http://pastebin.com/d20748752
01:28
<johnny>
cyberorg, hmm.. somebody who doesn't use dbus-launch :)
01:29
<cyberorg>
johnny, that is special case, sugar borked because of that, let me get normal kde or gnome
01:31
there you go :) http://pastebin.com/d48466012
01:32
<johnny>
hmm.. is that different than other distros?
01:32
seems like you forced gnome ?
01:33
instead of letting your servers session manager taking care of it?
01:33
<cyberorg>
johnny, nope, this is what ldm automatically detects
01:33
<johnny>
aha..
01:34
ok.. now time to check how ldm figures it out..
01:34
<cyberorg>
ldm gets this information form .desktop files in /usr/share/xsessions/
01:35
<johnny>
not directly tho?
01:36
<cyberorg>
no, possibly via /etc/X11/Xsession
01:36
where do you have that file?
01:36
<johnny>
yeah.. that's my problem right there
01:36
<cyberorg>
ours is in /etc/X11/xdm/Xsession
01:37
<johnny>
ours is an oddity..
01:37
and it used to work :)
01:37
<cyberorg>
do ln -s for now
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01:38
<johnny>
that's not the problem
01:38
my Xsession path is known by the ldm screen script
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01:40
<cyberorg>
johnny, do you have anything listed in ldm sessions?
01:40
if you dont select anything manually it should just run ssh -X /path/to/Xsession ...
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02:22
<johnny>
is the make install script supposed to create /var/run/ldm ?
02:22
i'm not seeing it
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04:35
<ogra>
warren, mkdst tags *again* ?
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04:40
<ogra>
warren, all i can say is that i followed a straight policy, tag, change release.conf, commit ...
04:41
johnny, that would be silly, /var/run is a tmpfs and will be wiped on shutdown/reboot
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04:43
<johnny>
oh.. duh..
04:44
got another user with stuff booting.. now just fixing some of hte bugs that were uncovered from installation on a much emptier system
04:44
missed a few deps
04:46
<ogra>
do you have ldminfod running ?
04:46
<johnny>
yes
04:47
<ogra>
and get the right info ?
04:47
<johnny>
i got my sessions loading.. it was PEBKAC thing
04:47
<ogra>
ah, k
04:47
<johnny>
when it was duplicated by another person, i thought it was something more serious
04:47
same problem tho..
04:47
i musta merged my default XSESSION out
04:47
at some point
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05:24
<johnny>
hmm.. sound is next..
05:26
<ogra>
just haver pulse in the chroot
05:26
the rest should just work
05:27
well and alsa indeed
05:29
<johnny>
hmm.. something is going wrong in my script
05:29
i try running the pulse thing manually and i see where it is trying to run setrlimit
05:30
and saying operation not permitted
05:30
<ogra>
manually ?
05:30
like with the commandline used in the initscript ?
05:32
<johnny>
yes
05:45
it does run..
05:45
when i do it manually
05:45
even with those messages
05:47
<ogra>
then its fine
05:47
<johnny>
it doesn't run when in the init scripts :)
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05:48
<ogra>
ask warren, he mentioned something we need to change to make it start at all with a new pulse release (there was a mail thread but i lost the link)
05:49
<jimjimovich>
anyone have experience with mice stopping to work LTSP 5 (ubuntu 8.04). having a problem where the mouse still moves, but there are strange lines near the mouse and it no longer is possible to click on anything
05:49
<ogra>
sounds like a broken Xserver
05:49
what HW doe that use ?
05:49
*does
05:50
<jimjimovich>
the terminal is a newer computer, not sure what hardware exactly
05:50
sound like a video card problem?
05:51
<ogra>
if you see strange fragments
05:51
<jimjimovich>
yes
05:51
<ogra>
thats my first guess
05:51
<jimjimovich>
it might be an nvidia card. any known issues with them?
05:52
<ogra>
well, tons ... its nvidia
05:52
surely not the best choice for a thin client :)
05:52
try creating an lts.conf fie
05:52
<jimjimovich>
well, i wasn't exactly given a choice
05:52
<ogra>
file
05:52
<jimjimovich>
got one already, and an entry for that machine
05:52
<ogra>
oh
05:53
<jimjimovich>
any specific graphics card settings?
05:53
<ogra>
remove that file then and check what it does if you le it do the autodetection
05:53
(you suppress nearly all the magic *using* an lts.conf)
05:53
always try without one *first*
05:54
then start to override autodetection if necessary
05:54
<jimjimovich>
well, i mean, there's no graphics settings in there, just ip address and whatnot
05:54
<ogra>
can you drop it to the pastebot ?
05:54
!pastebot
05:54
<ltspbot`>
ogra: "pastebot" is The LTSP pastebot is at http://pastebot.ltsp.org. Please paste all text longer than a line or two to the pastebot, as it helps to reduce traffic in the channel. A link to the content will be pasted in the channel.
05:55
<ltsppbot>
"jimjimovich" pasted "[Default] X_MODE_0 = "1024x768" (9 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/53
05:55
<jimjimovich>
ok, actually, there is a default
05:55
the other setting is for a different comptuer
05:56
(sorry, got confused between the lts.conf and the dhcp.conf when typing)
05:57
<ogra>
looks fine though
05:57
try XSERVER=vesa and see if the trails go away
05:57
<jimjimovich>
the thing is, it's totally random when they will appear
05:58
is vesa like a very generic driver?
05:58
<ogra>
yes, *the* generic driver
05:58
but wait
05:58
you have a shell on tty2
05:59
check what its using in the current setup in /etc/X11/xorg.conf on the client shell
05:59
<jimjimovich>
ok, i'll go check it out
05:59
thanks
06:00
<johnny>
hmm.. but ogra.. do you get that message?
06:00
when running it manually?
06:00
maybe i'm missing something..
06:00
i feel likei should know.. but i don't
06:00
<ogra>
no idea, i havent looked at sound at all yet
06:00
<johnny>
uggh.. imma go to bed
06:00
<ogra>
yesterday was all about matchibg the freeze
06:00
*matching
06:01
from now on i can look into functionallity
06:01
:)
06:01
<johnny>
i'll research later..
06:07
<jimjimovich>
ogra: it was using the "nv" driver. switching to "vesa" gives no video at all :(
06:08
<ogra>
well, the fun of owning an nvidia card
06:09
<jimjimovich>
yeah, i'm starting to wonder if the card itself isn't bad
06:09
<ogra>
it is, by design :P
06:09
<jimjimovich>
lol
06:09
<ogra>
soo ...
06:09
<jimjimovich>
so is it best to stay with the intel cards?
06:09
(unfortunately, i'm working with a plethora of random hardware here)
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06:56
<Blinny>
What would give my users a blank screen after login, and the server only spawning 5 or 6 processes? (Ubuntu 8.04)
06:57
Prior to login I ensure that there aren't stale processes laying around. We did have the power go out yesterday and sessions were abruptly terminated, but I killall'd any leftover processes manually.
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06:58
<ogra>
probably some gconf crap lying around
06:58* ogra has no idea
07:01
<Blinny>
I need to get Gadi's latest processes-killing script. I'm still on revision 0.0.001(a)
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08:21
<dukai>
hi
08:21
how to make sure that nbd_swap is working?
08:22
although nbd_swap is set to true, clients freeze when they seem to have reached their ram limit
08:22
<ogra>
check if nbdswapd runs
08:22
<dukai>
on the server?
08:22
<ogra>
on the server
08:22
<dukai>
yes there are a few
08:23
<ogra>
so you got swap
08:23
<dukai>
but the client doesn't respond for more than 5 minutes
08:23
<ogra>
note that nbd swap is only a safety net so the clients dont crash completely
08:23
yeah, indeed it swaps over the network
08:24
<dukai>
so you think it takes >5minutes for it to respond then?
08:25
<ogra>
what you can do is, make sure your server has enough ram, then create and mount a tmpfs for the sapfiles, configure nbdswapd to only use swapfiles from that mounted tmpfs dir and your client essentially uses the server ram over network instead fo swapping from the servers disk
08:25
but still you have eth network as bottleneck there
08:26
<dukai>
ok, thanks
08:26
it's a rare occasion when someone has to open a 150mb pdf with full of images
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08:26
<dukai>
it seems to freeze after 30 pages
08:26
<ogra>
another option is compcache which i just included in ubuntu intrepid yeserday
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08:27
<dukai>
what does it do?
08:27
<ogra>
create a compressed prition in the clients ram and use that as swap
08:27
effectively that extends your ram for the cost of compression
08:28
but thats only in intrepid yet which isnt released before oct.
08:28
<dukai>
it could be dangerous to update hardy to intrepid
08:28
<ogra>
yes, dont do that yet
08:29
at least not on production systems
08:29
the stuff is in ... but not tested or debugged yet, so intrepid might currently be heavily broken
08:31
<dukai>
usually the autumn ubuntus are more like a testing version:)
08:31
<ogra>
??
08:31
what makes you think that ?
08:31* ogra usually puts the same effort into all releases
08:32
<dukai>
ok, I meant the distrib as a whole
08:32
I've used only dapper and hardy for ltsp
08:32
<ogra>
well, it definately depends what upstream does
08:32
we somewhat rely on that
08:32
i.e. upstream X dropped support for xorg.conf
08:32
<dukai>
:)
08:33
<ogra>
that will surely have huge impact on the next releases of ubuntu or fedora who ship that stuff
08:33
<dukai>
X is evolving somewhere very fast
08:33
but it breaks many things
08:33
<ogra>
yes, and very good, but it still has miles to go
08:33
<dukai>
allt he time
08:33
<ogra>
right
08:34
<dukai>
do you know if somebody is going to make better support on kde for the localdev?
08:35
I mean some user friendy stuff
08:35
<ogra>
no, no idea
08:35
i dont use KDE .... but we'll surely happily accept patches if they are sane
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08:36
<cyberorg>
ogra, there already is something from vagrantc that we use, it gets icons of local dev on kde desktop
08:37
<dukai>
kde 3 or 4?
08:37
<ogra>
cyberorg, yeah thats massively hackish
08:37
creting links or some such
08:38
which is why we dont use it upstream but ship it in the docs
08:38
<cyberorg>
ogra, no, creating .desktop files
08:38
<ogra>
so admins can break their stuff themselves if they want to
08:38
<dukai>
where can I have it? ;)
08:38
<ogra>
cyberorg, anyway, tinkering in /homedirs
08:38
thats something you simply dont do
08:39
dukai, its in the upstream codebranch
08:39
for ltspfs
08:39
<cyberorg>
it creates ~/Desktop/ltspfsmounter--%s.desktop
08:39
<ogra>
yeah, evil
08:40
<dukai>
:D
08:40
<ogra>
and not allowed by policy in ubuntu/debian anyway
08:40
s nothing i need to think about
08:40* ogra is still hoping someone comes around with acceptable code at some point
08:40
<ogra>
and i guess vagrant as well
08:41
i try to not ship crack
08:43
and after all i still hope someone adopty my hal approach for localdev and develops it to an end ... so we dont have to care about crack at all and let hal handle everything
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08:43
<jammcq>
g'morning friends
08:43
<ogra>
morning jammcq
08:44
<jammcq>
hey
08:45* ogra ponders ...
08:45
<ogra>
am i adventurous enough today to try out what i uploaded last night ?
08:46
<warren>
nah
08:46
don't test things you build
08:46
<jammcq>
just assume they work
08:46
<ogra>
warren, yeah, i'll leave it to my users :)
08:47
warren, there was no point in testing it yesterday ... ubuntu works differently here ... get the latest and greatest in until feature freeze ... then stabilize for two months until release
08:47
warren, so can you tell me whats wrong with: tag, change release.conf, commit, push ? thats all i did yesterday
08:48
does mkdst tag another time if i roll tarballs or something ?
08:49* ogra has really no idea how that other tag got where it is
08:49
<warren>
ogra: commit release.conf before tag
08:50
ogra: mkdst tag will tag using whatever is in release.conf, thus it will fail if release.conf was not changed
08:50
ogra: if it did the wrong thing, you can bzr tag --delete TAGNAME before you push it.
08:50
<ogra>
well, i did only mkdst tar
08:50
and i didnt see any code in mkdst doing the tagging at all if i use tar
08:51
<warren>
mkdst tar --from-tag=ltsp-5.1.21
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08:51
<ogra>
*and* i used mkdst *after* tag, change release.conf, commit, push
08:51
<warren>
mkdst tar isn't good for real builds because it copies whatever is in the current dir, including files not checked in
08:51
<ogra>
so i dont really see whats wrong with that
08:51
<warren>
mkdst tar --from-tag=FOO guarantees that you get a pristine tarball
08:51
there's also debtar
08:51
<ogra>
if mkdst does anything to my tree that didnt get pushed
08:52
since didnt push after tag, change release.conf, commit, push
08:52
that was my definately last action on the tree
08:53
<warren>
you must tag AFTER changing release.conf
08:53
that's the only thing you have to do different
08:53
<ogra>
huh ?
08:53
why does that matter ? its the same commit
08:53
<warren>
you tagged before committing changes to release.conf
08:53
<ogra>
i tag, change release.conf, commit
08:53
<warren>
no
08:53
release.conf revision happens after the tag
08:54* ogra doesnt get how that would matter at all
08:54
<warren>
if you do it in that order
08:54
<ogra>
there was a commit before
08:54
<warren>
sigh
08:54
why does the fedora guy have to teach you how bzr works? =)
08:54
<ogra>
because of the 50 upstream projects i work with this is the only one using silly tags :P
08:55
but still
08:55
its one and the same commit
08:55
the tag cant apply to somthing that was committed and pushed already
08:56
so i dont get why it matters if i edit release.conf before or after calling tag in *the same commit* it shouldnt matter at all nd shouldnt influence a commit that was already pushed 1h before
09:07
<warren>
almost everything in fedora is tagged in this manner
09:08
this is how a lot of upstreams do releases for multiple distro consumption
09:08
we've done nearly 3 dozen such tags before this without an error
09:08
please follow the common procedure when you do so
09:09* warren is looking at sbalneav's problem now.
09:10* ogra will simply avoid tagging all over
09:10
<ogra>
fine to wait until someone else tags
09:10
(usually)
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09:13
<warren>
dude
09:13
all I'm asking is commit release.conf before tag
09:13
that's all
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09:14
<ogra>
right, but the next time i will have to tag will be in two months or so (after rlease)
09:15
i doubt i will remember it and do it the logical way (which for me is bound to the commit) ... so i refrain from it
09:15
i simply dont want to mess up stuff
09:16
and doing distro specific development only now anyway and wont pull new tarballs, it is unlikely that i will have to tag (unless i request a freeze exception which is a lot of paperwork)
09:17
<dberkholz>
is there a release-making howto page around?
09:17
<ogra>
dberkholz, mkdst
09:17
<dberkholz>
just put the process on there, and people can open it up every time
09:17
i'm talking a page on the wiki
09:17
that way you can't just forget a step or do things in the wrong order
09:17
<warren>
there is no central wiki with current info
09:17
<ogra>
well, use mkdst and all is fine ... i didnt do so for tagging
09:17
<dberkholz>
we've got one for xorg and it works nicely
09:18
<ogra>
but we could need a wikipage saying that :)
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09:18
<dberkholz>
http://xorg.freedesktop.org/wiki/Development/Documentation/ReleaseHOWTO
09:18
<warren>
jammcq: is the ltsp.org server backed up? if the entire thing were lost could we easily recover?
09:19
jammcq: our full-time sysadmins could host it at its current domain name with no visible fedora branding, manage the wiki engine, security updates and backups.
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09:20
<delly84>
Does anyone know anything about a permission issue on ubuntu with pulse audio?
09:20
<ogra>
warren, there are ssh accounts on the machine for some of us (not that anyone uses them ...) does that work with your policy ?
09:20
<delly84>
i can't get any sound to work on my clients
09:20
<warren>
ogra: to host downloads?
09:20
downloads of what?
09:20
<delly84>
it gives me a permission denied
09:20
<ogra>
no idea what for ...
09:20
<warren>
we don't exactly need downloads of anything anymore
09:20
ltsp.org needs to streamline to a lot LESS
09:21
<ogra>
i used it once to exchange stuff with scottie
09:21
<delly84>
when i try to "test" it gives me that error
09:21
<ogra>
warren, well, my key seems not to be on the server anymore ... it asks for a PW anyway now ...
09:21
so moot point
09:22
<delly84>
I was thinking i could just create a group and add all users to that group
09:22
<warren>
the key question was if the server is being adequately maintained for security updates and backups
09:22
if not we can easily provide that
09:22* ogra guesses so
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09:23
<ogra>
warren, on the same servers that were hacked recently
09:23
(sorry couldnt resist :P)
09:23
<warren>
...
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09:24
<warren>
I could comment on how things were compartmentalized and the media really overblew things, but I can't give any more details due to the investigation.
09:24
<ogra>
no, but really i think having that server not in a serverfarm thats massivey exposed to people moght be a bit safer
09:24
<delly84>
any idea on the pulseaudio permission issue?
09:24
<warren>
ogra: what exactly is the risk to content of ltsp.org?
09:24
(why would ltsp.org be a target?)
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09:24
<ogra>
none, but you can abues it as hub
09:24
<warren>
what do you mean?
09:25
<ogra>
the content isnt intresting but its good as a hub to get into other servers
09:25
<warren>
ltsp.org needs to be reduced in content to merely a description of upstream activities, events, and links to distro pages to use LTSP. It should not offer any downloads or the current details that are merely confusing.
09:25
um...
09:25
<ogra>
anyway, i think if its not to much work its better to have it sitting at jims basement
09:26
<warren>
is it in jim's basement? he said it was a donated server somewhere else being hosted.
09:26
<ogra>
i wouldnt suggest to move it to debian or ubuntu DCs either
09:26
<warren>
Is it being backed up?
09:26
also I hate the current wiki engine.
09:26
<ogra>
no idea
09:26
i use it to rarely to be upset about that
09:27
but putting an otherwise unintresting server into an environment thats target of many attacks is not something i'd do
09:27
<warren>
that is an unfair characterization.
09:27
<ogra>
unless i wouldnt be able to cope with the maintenance
09:27
<warren>
"cope with the maintenance"? you don't do anything today
09:27
<ogra>
warren, no, thats a realistinc one ... i wouldnt put it into an ubuntu DC either
09:27
or debian
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09:28
<ogra>
warren, theoretically :P
09:28
<warren>
um...
09:28
<ogra>
*i* being jim :)
09:28
<warren>
let's discuss this later.
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09:32
<jammcq>
yes, it's being backed up. It's in my rack at my office
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09:35
<dberkholz>
i think ltsp.org should be hosting all the released source tarballs, which should then become distro packages
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09:38
<ogra>
dberkholz, ugh
09:38
we dont release tarballs ... thats why we have the infrastructure we do
09:38
that would be a lot of duplication
09:39
<dberkholz>
all the distros should be able to have something that is ldm-X.Y.Z and be running the same thing
09:39
<ogra>
which is why we have the trunk branches that are supposed to be always stable enough to be used
09:39
<dberkholz>
you're saying that should happen just through a tag?
09:39
<warren>
dberkholz: none of really need tarballs anymore
09:39
<ogra>
right
09:40
that was the plan
09:40
<warren>
dberkholz: fedora builds many packages from source checkouts, the tags are part of the verification process to be sure the checkout actually matches a specific moment in time upstream.
09:40
<dberkholz>
obviously it would be personally useful for gentoo to have source tarballs
09:40
<warren>
dberkholz: you're free to make your own tarballs
09:40
<dberkholz>
i'm wondering whether it would also be useful to people trying to set up ltsp on new distros
09:41
<warren>
dberkholz: tarballs are verifiable by comparing to upstream tags
09:41
instead of checksumsa and GPG sigs
09:41
dberkholz: not really
09:41
dberkholz: setting up ltsp on new distros requires a ton of customization
09:41
<ogra>
dberkholz, people on new distros should first work on adding their sepcific plugins
09:41
<dberkholz>
i suppose a lot of them would be working off bzr
09:41
<warren>
they should be
09:41
<ogra>
else we have the same fork situation we have with suse atm
09:41
<warren>
they are not playing with upstream if they are not
09:41
and we don't want them
09:42
let me clarify that, I am not interested in working with them.
09:42wwx has quit IRC
09:42
<ogra>
i actually think we should make up a strict policy to avoid that situation in the future
09:42
<warren>
ogra: there is a simpler way that seems less discriminatory
09:42
<dberkholz>
i find it very frustrating with a different project i package that simply declares a revision number in subversion as a release, but there's a pretty large distinction between levels of distro integration here and there
09:42
<warren>
ogra: LTSP as a trademark, and with trademark use guidelines like Firefox or Fedora.
09:43wwx has joined #ltsp
09:43
<ogra>
warren, i doubt anyone would actually want to enforce anything
09:43
('anyone' being jammcq here)
09:43
<warren>
don't need to enforce with lawyers
09:43
<dberkholz>
need it to be worth the money
09:43
<warren>
the community backlash is enough
09:43
<jammcq>
DisklessWorkstations.com holds the trademark on Ltsp
09:43
<ogra>
especially since we can simply solve it in a sane way
09:44
<dberkholz>
oh, i see what you're saying.
09:44
<ogra>
without force ...
09:44
<warren>
If someone is misusing the LTSP mark in a way that is confusing users
09:44
there must be a document we can point to
09:44
"Here are permissible uses"
09:44* ogra is still hoping to get suse guys to BTS and we can solve it there in person
09:44
<dberkholz>
ok, but if they've already shown that they don't care about that community, how would a backlash from it about another issue matter
09:45pimpministerp has quit IRC
09:45
<warren>
A trademark permissible use guidelines document would be the first step to politely asking them to change the name of their project.
09:45
we don't mind them using our bits
09:45primeministerp has joined #ltsp
09:45
<warren>
but if they continue to cause confusion due to a confusingly similar mark, then we politely ask them to change the name.
09:45
KIWI-anythingelse
09:46* ogra prefers to embrace people instead of beating them up though it usually takes a lot longer... but tat might be my ubuntu attitude ....
09:47
<ogra>
but i'd also like to avoid the situation in the future
09:47
<warren>
Offer rehabilitation or changing their mark to be not confusingly similar.
09:47
that's simple
09:48
<dberkholz>
wonder when you get into trouble with debian's guidelines
09:48
<warren>
hm
09:49
<ogra>
yeah, thet might become problematic with such an approach
09:50
warren, anyway, i'd like to see what comes out of the conversation thats currently ongoing before anyone starts taking any actions
10:03
<cyberorg>
ogra, jammcq sorry, what is the confusion about kiwi-ltsp, we have fully working upstreamed plugin, we use un-modified ltsp core components
10:03
<warren>
cyberorg: it isn't only that
10:03
cyberorg: we get kiwi users coming here complaining about something being broken, we ask them questions and they mention scripts and config files that we never heard of
10:03
<ogra>
cyberorg, i explaied it three times ... two of these explanations are on the ML
10:04
<cyberorg>
we are not giving up features kiwi provides unless some suse dev rewrites it in form of ltsp plugin
10:04
warren, i have not seen any, i always check logs, none that can't be pointed to http://en.opensuse.org/LTSP or asked to post on MLs
10:04
<ogra>
cyberorg, right, thats what i'm asking for ...
10:05
<warren>
this is not a crisis point yet, but is it really asking too much to call it something other than KIWI-LtSP?
10:05
<ogra>
cyberorg, having a kiwi-ltsp person and suse dev at BTS wuld be the way to go imho ... we'd all happily help you guys
10:05
<cyberorg>
warren, i dont see why big fuss about calling it kiwi-ltsp when kiwi does equal heavy lifting
10:05
fedora calls it k12ltsp?
10:05
<ogra>
no
10:05
<warren>
no
10:06
<cyberorg>
k12 linux?
10:06
<warren>
not exactly
10:06
<ogra>
you are mixing up an edu distro with ltsp
10:06
<warren>
the feature is called Fedora LTSP5
10:06
the spin might be called K12Linux
10:06
(like Edubuntu)
10:06
<ogra>
right
10:06
though edubuntu doesnt contain ltsp anymore since a year
10:07
<cyberorg>
ogra, so you can consider LTSP being ltsp, the delivery mechanism we use is kiwi, hence kiwi-ltsp
10:07
<warren>
yeah, fedora is just 2 years late
10:07
<ogra>
cyberorg, no
10:07
cyberorg, your implementation is backwards
10:07
that causes a loss in contributions as well as problems in support
10:07
<cyberorg>
ogra, we are using existing technology available to us
10:07
<ogra>
we all do that
10:07
<warren>
yes
10:08
cyberorg: I wouldn't mind if you called it "KIWI-somethingelse with LTSP technology"
10:08
<ogra>
warren uses anaconda or whatever fedora offers, ubuntu and debian the debian tools to build images ... but not as frontends
10:08
<cyberorg>
ogra, i dont believe in problems in support, point the users to wiki or ML, there will always someone to support, everything LTSP remains the same so that does not matter at all
10:08
<warren>
that makes it far more clear
10:08
<cyberorg>
warren, i am past the point where i care what you mind
10:09
there has to be some rational/logic in arguments
10:09
<warren>
cyberorg: LTSP is a trademark owned by disklessworkstations.com
10:09
<ogra>
cyberorg, we tried to help a greek guy recently here we could in the end just send off to a kiwi channel for his prob since nobody of us had ever heard of the script he mentioned nor knew how the loaclaes and encoding are set in your implementation
10:09
<warren>
cyberorg: upstream could decide to write trademark use guidelines
10:09
<cyberorg>
warren, we provide the same LTSP that comes from upstream, what dont you understand in that?
10:09
<ogra>
that took an hour of support from a bunch of people
10:10
with no result at all
10:10
while it would have taken five mins if he had the right plugins
10:10
warren, put that club away ... that doesnt help
10:11
<cyberorg>
ogra, i saw that, and changed stuff in our package to handle that automatically as you suggested to him
10:11
<warren>
bbl, have to work on actual work
10:11
<ogra>
cyberorg, well, where is that change in ltsp-trunk ? so we all benefit from it ?
10:12
cyberorg, wat i'm constantly asking for is to use kiwi as we all use our build tools ... as backend ... you say you cant implement that, i understand that ... but there are people who can, so lets get them involved and in the end we all have something we collaborate on
10:12bjohnson has joined #ltsp
10:13
<cyberorg>
ogra, it is this four lines in our build script http://pastebin.com/d5e719a19
10:13
nothing useful to upstream
10:14
<ogra>
right, thats exactly my point
10:14
<warren>
cyberorg: Fedora uses the same script names as Debian/Ubuntu for some things but the implementation is entirely different
10:14
cyberorg: this is done for purposes of documentation compat only
10:14
<cyberorg>
ogra, i understand your point, but we have existing tool that is easy for us to use and provides everything that ltsp requires
10:15
<ogra>
well, and if $fedora-admin finds a fix it might be useful for all of us once he sends it to ltsp-devel
10:15
<warren>
cyberorg: go ahead and call it "better than LTSP and uses LTSP technology" but that is not LTSP compliant.
10:15
<cyberorg>
warren, we have the same scripts, so if you tell users to run ltsp-build-client, it will still work
10:15
<ogra>
simply due to the fact that we all use the same base
10:15
<jammcq>
maybe that's the point of confusion
10:15
cyberorg: kiwi has everything that a "thin client" requires. but, if you want to be LTSP, then you are required to have a little more than that
10:15
such as, 'ltsp-build-client'
10:16
ogra: don't we have a document somewhere that lists minimal requirements for LTSP?
10:16
<cyberorg>
jammcq, kiwi is just imaging technology, LTSP is what gives it thin client feature
10:16
<jammcq>
something we came up with in my office
10:16
<ogra>
and its not hard to get that "little more" ... just requires another person understanding another bit ... we need to find that person and get you two together and we'Re all happy ;)
10:16
jammcq, i thought so
10:16
<jammcq>
seems like we wrote all that down at my office in 2006
10:16
<ogra>
jammcq, we wrote that up back in detroit
10:17
yeah
10:17
<cyberorg>
jammcq, everything LTSP requires is in our implementations, including SUSE_LINUX plugin upstream
10:17
<bjohnson>
hi. I've been using ltsp for years but decided to upgrade the server with new hardware and to latest Centos and ltsp. Could someone point me to LTSP rpms for centos 5.2?
10:18
I hear ltsp 5 has a lot of great new features .. we've been using 4
10:18
<cyberorg>
jammcq, we are not using kiwi's thin client feature, it does other kind of thin client implementation too
10:18
HP and wyse uses that
10:19
<jammcq>
cyberorg: the point is, there's a minimal set of things required, in order to truely be LTSP. Opensuse with kiwi is very close, but not quite there
10:19
if it were clear that opensuse was heading in that direction, to finish it up, then I don't think anybody would mind you guys using the name 'ltsp', but so far, it's not clear that opensuse cares to go that extra last step
10:20
<cyberorg>
jammcq, i've gone through that, we have everything listed there, kiwi gives additional features that are quite useful, like live CD and USB
10:20
jammcq, when i started on getting ltsp5 working on opensuse, i was told to use distro tools
10:21
then vagrantc and ogra helped me build plugin using that
10:21
<jammcq>
yes, and as ogra and warren have been saying, you are *most* of the way there, but there's an issue of some scripts and plugins that you either don't have or don't use.
10:21
<ogra>
so why isnt it promoted then ?
10:22
<jammcq>
and I understand that cyberorg isn't a programmer
10:22
and I understand that these things take time
10:22
<cyberorg>
ogra, promote build script? prebuilt image rpms are available via 1-click
10:22
<jammcq>
but i'm not convinced that opensuse wants to go the rest of the way
10:22
<ogra>
doesnt look like
10:23
<warren>
cyberorg: using the LTSP name on that makes it confusing to other distro users. The other distros DO NOT WANT users to be confused by that.
10:23
<jammcq>
i'm also not sure exactly what the differences are between where opensuse is and were warren/ogra thing opensuse should be
10:23
<warren>
cyberorg: that is part of my gripe with use of the trademark in a confusing way.
10:23
<dberkholz>
being able to run the same tools and use the same documentation about how ltsp works
10:23
<jammcq>
and in Maine in early november, we could all sit down and figure this out and move forward
10:23
<cyberorg>
warren, that is to help support people to identify what distro the user is using, first thing everyone asks here is "what distro?"
10:24
<ogra>
jammcq, ++
10:24
<warren>
cyberorg: your page offers downloads for other distros in ways htat are confusing to users and completely unsupported by those distros.
10:24
<cyberorg>
warren, i still dont see any confusion, LTSP is 100% ltsp
10:24
<ogra>
and japerry even expressed interest in working on it
10:24
<cyberorg>
warren, please check again
10:24
<ogra>
so i dont see whats the prob
10:24
<warren>
I need to focus on other things. bbl
10:24warren has left #ltsp
10:25
<cyberorg>
packages for "other" distro were setup to demonstrate that packages from the same tarballs can be built for everyone from one place
10:26
the repo description also had "cross distribution test repository"
10:27* ogra didnt know about that at all and asks kindly to remove any ubuntu builds there
10:28
<cyberorg>
dberkholz, if it was possible to use same tools by all distros, all the distibutions would have been using ltsp5, it has been around for almost two years now
10:28
<ogra>
(as long as its ltsp ... i dont care about other things here)
10:28
<cyberorg>
ogra, there has never been any ubuntu or debian builds
10:28
<ogra>
good
10:28
<cyberorg>
*for ltsp
10:29
<dberkholz>
there's a big difference between possibilities and execution
10:29
one does not imply the other
10:29
<cyberorg>
it was fedora8 repo i added while i was having a discussion with warren that how all distributions can work together and release packages at the same time, same version, mirrored all over
10:29
<ogra>
cyberorg, ltsp is around since 2005
10:30staffencasa has joined #ltsp
10:30
<ogra>
*ltsp5
10:30
<jammcq>
that sounds like a shuttleworth topic
10:30
<dberkholz>
it's a slight adaptation of a blog post by seth godin that i read a couple of weeks ago.
10:31
ideas are a dime a dozen, it's turning them into reality that's the challenge
10:31
<cyberorg>
jammcq, opensuse build service provides that infrastructure, build for two archs, many distros, developers do not need other distros installed to test if package builds everywhere
10:31
<ogra>
apart from that fact that such a package might totally break distro policies
10:31
<cyberorg>
dberkholz, it has been a reality since over a year :)
10:32
ogra, not if the distro packagers provide spec files
10:32
<ogra>
packaing a .deb is a lot more than havinf a spec file
10:32* ogra points to the debian maintainer guide
10:33
<cyberorg>
yeah, we will be doing debs for easy-ltsp
10:33
<ogra>
that thing doesnt have 300 pages just for fun ... and understanding that stuff is what makes u a debian package
10:33
<cyberorg>
i dont understand deb packaging at all
10:33
<ogra>
*up
10:34
so if you want to provide a .deb, do it *in the distro* you target
10:34
never ever do it out of distro or avan workse provide packaging data (a debian dir) *inside* your tarball
10:34
<cyberorg>
ogra, that is what oBS provides, real distros to build packages on
10:34
provides even RHEL targets
10:34
<ogra>
you dont get the point
10:35
anyway, i have to rush out for 1h
10:35
<cyberorg>
ok :)
10:36
<ogra>
but pretty please dont put a debian dir into easy-ltsp ... talk to #ubuntu-motu if you want an ubuntu or ebian package
10:36
*debian
10:36
<cyberorg>
we will show it to you first :)
10:40
ogra, https://build.opensuse.org/package/show?package=Easy-LTSP&project=home%3Ajapa83
10:41
when you have time, needs opensuse login account
10:44pdjbarber has joined #ltsp
10:45
<pdjbarber>
does anyone have experience on OpenSuSE 10.3 kiwi-ltsp?
10:45
<cyberorg>
pdjbarber, yeah, we've just been waiting for you :)
10:46
<pdjbarber>
I have my client booting, however it appeasr to be hanging after it gets to "input" for keybaord and mouse
10:46
<cyberorg>
pdjbarber, it is known, opensuse's kernel does not boot on low resources clients
10:46
it requires minimum i586 with 128M ram
10:47
pdjbarber, tested using normal PC/laptop or higher spec clients?
10:47
<pdjbarber>
ahhh...not good for low power VIA type motherboards then
10:48
<cyberorg>
pdjbarber, nope :(
10:48
i tested on via 800Mhz with 128M ram, that is the lowest i have tested
10:50
as kiwi-ltsp and ltsp4.2 are installed in different locations, you can do some dhcpd.conf magic and use 4.2 for old clients and use ltsp5 for others that work
10:51ATA_Dark_Shadow has quit IRC
10:52
<pdjbarber>
looks like reverting back to ltsp4.x then :( washoping to use ltsp5.x thanks
10:52
<cyberorg>
what clients specs do you have?
10:54etyack has joined #ltsp
10:54
<pdjbarber>
533mhz 256MB...theywork well with LTSP4
10:55
<cyberorg>
pdjbarber, yes, much powerful for 4.2
11:05japerry has joined #ltsp
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11:13
<cyberorg>
dberkholz, btw, i agree with your idea about tarballs, it makes many things simpler, packaging especially, all distros would have same version
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12:19
<FuriousGeorge>
so, if i add a client now, i dont need a whole 'nother filesystem on my disk?
12:19
and, more importantly, "hey all"
12:20* gbolte dosent understand the question
12:25
<cyberorg>
hi gbolte :)
12:25* Lns doesn't understand the q either
12:26
<ogra>
FuriousGeorge, the fs gets mounted on boot fom the server
12:27
(if you ran ltsp-build-client to create it once)
12:27
FuriousGeorge, all clients use the same fs, mount it readonly from the server and create the writable bits on boot in ram
12:29* Nubae just sent XS email to motu
12:29
<Nubae>
I wonder if there will be takers
12:29
<ogra>
sounds good
12:29
i bet there will :)
12:29
<FuriousGeorge>
ogra: ok, im starting to wrap my head around it
12:30
<Nubae>
made as diplomatic as possible without relinquishing control from the XS architect martin langhoff... he really knows his shit
12:30
<FuriousGeorge>
i notice things when sshed in to the client arent as they appear from chroot or from server
12:30
<gbolte>
hi cyberorg
12:30
<ogra>
FuriousGeorge, you have sshd in your client ?
12:30
<FuriousGeorge>
ogra: troubleshooting
12:30
<ogra>
ah
12:31
<Nubae>
but even if its a side project.... it can only be positive, after all the XOs are already debian-sugar capable now
12:31
<ogra>
yeah, the chroot is only the basic fs
12:31
<FuriousGeorge>
server changed hostname, seeing ldm logs was necessary
12:31
<ogra>
on boot the actual HW related bits are set up
12:31
ltsp-update-sshkeys is what you want in that case :)
12:32
and depending on the distro ltsp-update-image afterwards
12:32
<gbolte>
cyberorg, I am still trying to figure out why localdevices have 2 icons on the desktop
12:32
<ogra>
that updates the ssh keys for ldm after ip/name changes
12:32
<gbolte>
its a mystery
12:32
:/
12:32
one works and the other dosent
12:32
<cyberorg>
gbolte, you have any kde applications running?
12:32
<Nubae>
on to more ltsp related stuff... one of the reasons one of the school thats paying me to admin wants fat client is to be able to run office 2007 and photoshop and dreamweaver CS
12:33
<gbolte>
cyberorg, my user no
12:33
<Nubae>
dont know if you know this, but wine 1.0 was recently released and so was crossover 7
12:33
<ogra>
sure i know this :)
12:33
<cyberorg>
gbolte, what is the output of $GNOME_DESKTOP_SESSION_ID
12:33
<gbolte>
I dont know what other people are running
12:33
lol
12:33
<Nubae>
and both are supposed to support the ms and adobe crap flawlessly
12:33
<FuriousGeorge>
yeah... so, then the reason i see things when ssh'ed in that arent there from outside is because they all mount that single / i built with ltsp_build_client, and then somewhere there is a ramdisk where all the clients keep the difference between themselves and /?
12:33
<ogra>
ogra@osiris:~$ apt-cache show wine|grep -i version
12:33
Version: 1.0.0-1ubuntu10
12:33
;)
12:33
<gbolte>
cyberorg, gbolte@wksserv02:~> echo $GNOME_DESKTOP_SESSION_ID
12:33
Default
12:34
<Nubae>
ahh... and u've tried running photoshop/office?
12:34
<cyberorg>
gbolte, second sets of icons are created by kde-desktop-icons, it is run only if GNOME_DESKTOP_SESSION_ID is empty
12:34
<Nubae>
if its true... and local apps aint ready yet till intrepid+1 Im gonna put all my time into fat client
12:34
<ogra>
FuriousGeorge, right, usually unionfs ... or if you have an nfs mount a tmpfs in ram
12:35
<cyberorg>
gbolte, if you are using gnome on all desktop you can remove kde-desktop-icons completely
12:35
<FuriousGeorge>
serverram, obviously, right?
12:35
<ogra>
Nubae, well, the infrastructure is there in intrpid ... but it requires tinkering with the .desktop files
12:35
<gbolte>
cyberorg, the package?
12:35
<ogra>
FuriousGeorge, nope, client
12:35
<cyberorg>
gbolte, see /etc/ltspfs/mounter.d/kde-desktop-icons
12:35
<Nubae>
well, would it be better to do that or for me to tinker with fat client? ;-)
12:35
<gbolte>
k
12:36
<ogra>
Nubae, as i said before fat clients will still be q required feature
12:36
<gbolte>
cyberorg, make that not executable?
12:36
<ogra>
localapps will evolve anyway
12:36
<cyberorg>
gbolte, remove or that, only if you dont use kde
12:36
<Nubae>
I guess its not as easy as enabling wine as the only local app
12:37
would involve more to get these apps running locally
12:37
<ogra>
wine alone wont suffice anyway
12:37
you need the call to wine <app>.exe indeed
12:37
but that might work
12:37etyack has joined #ltsp
12:38
<gbolte>
thanks cyberorg that fixed it
12:38
I just chmod -x
12:38
<ogra>
do you have an intrepid install around ? i have put the xrexec script into /usr/share/doc/ltsp-server/examples
12:38
<cyberorg>
gbolte, it is not even kiwi-ltsp thing ;)
12:38
<gbolte>
ah
12:38
<Nubae>
I see it this way... there are 2 reasons for local apps/fat clients... stuff like wine/crossover.... and stuff like flash/java/heavy media
12:38
<ogra>
so you get an idea what to do for runnign a local app (apart from having the bits and pieces installed in the image)
12:38* gbolte thinks that needs to be added to the wiki
12:39
<Nubae>
i dont, but if you tell mw which image, I shall download now
12:39
<gbolte>
disable that or else you will get an extra icon that dosent work
12:39
<cyberorg>
gbolte, add here: http://en.opensuse.org/LTSP/Troubleshooting
12:39
<ogra>
Nubae, well its still in development, i havent fully tested it yet (only fixed one bug today)
12:40
<Nubae>
i dont mind that... I will help with bugs then, in the worst of cases
12:40
<ogra>
it *should* build an image since today though
12:40
<Nubae>
its not for a production server
12:40
<ogra>
well, just install the latest ltsp-server/-standalone packages
12:40
<Nubae>
but Id like something to present the school by November
12:40
<ogra>
and run ltsp-build-client
12:41
<Nubae>
with the latest intrepid alpha then?
12:41
<gbolte>
cyberorg, wait why is the logic in that script not working
12:41
<Nubae>
enabling intrepid-proposed and testing?
12:41
<gbolte>
it should not need to be disabled if the user is in gnome
12:41
<cyberorg>
gbolte, somehow it is getting GNOME_DESKTOP_SESSION_ID empty
12:42
<ogra>
Nubae, only intrepid
12:42
there is no proposed before a release ;)
12:42elisboa has quit IRC
12:42
<gbolte>
cyberorg, but mine is not its "Default"
12:42
<ogra>
like there is no -security :)
12:42
<Nubae>
heh, just checking
12:42
<gbolte>
I dont know why it thinks its empty
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12:43
<cyberorg>
let me test again
12:45
gbolte, worksforme :)
12:45
<gbolte>
:/
12:45
<cyberorg>
gbolte, btw are you using italc?
12:45
<gbolte>
not yet
12:45
<cyberorg>
try it out http://en.opensuse.org/LTSP/iTALC
12:45
<gbolte>
we have been caught up in move preperation
12:45
our company is moving
12:45
<Nubae>
ogra: should I download an alpha or a daily snapshot?
12:46
<cyberorg>
gbolte, no configuration required, just installing packages and running it is enough, it runs automatically on the clients
12:47
<gbolte>
hmm interesting
12:47
<Nubae>
cyberorg: just picked up latest linux format... they are really waving the suse flag about... they say the latest is the best thing since 9.3
12:47
<ogra>
Nubae, not sure how the daily looks atm, alpha is at least tested for installability, but dont build ltsp from it
12:48
<gbolte>
cyberorg, I cant wait till shutdown and reboot are supported
12:48
<cyberorg>
Nubae, it is :)
12:48* ogra has to run out
12:49Q-FUNK has joined #ltsp
12:49
<Nubae>
cyberorg: u mention italc support.... how supported is it.. does it have the messaging between clients built in?
12:49
<cyberorg>
gbolte, technically it is not possible the way we do it for the clients, we run everything on server including italc-client, so shutting down will shut down the server if it worked
12:49
<gbolte>
cyberorg, can you pastebin your kde-desktop-icons script so I can see if they differ at all
12:50
<ogra>
Nubae, if its the version we have in intrepid it should
12:50
<gbolte>
ah
12:50
<cyberorg>
Nubae, yes, thanks to stgraber all the clients are automatically detected too
12:50
<gbolte>
yeah
12:50
<Nubae>
I am looking at the link too... just wondering... cause italc is a necessity in any school these days
12:50
wow, wonderful
12:50
<cyberorg>
ogra, we have almost the same packages as ubuntu
12:50
<ogra>
cyberorg, yeah, i thought so
12:51
i think we're minimally ahead atm (final release vs RC) ... unless you updated recently
12:51* Nubae needs to test italc wirelessly... see if it works on the xos
12:51
<cyberorg>
ogra, i am good at putting other people's work to use ;)
12:51
<gbolte>
lol
12:51
<ogra>
Nubae, it should
12:52
<Nubae>
it should and it does are different words :-)
12:52
<ogra>
cyberorg, nothing to complain about :)
12:52
<cyberorg>
1.0.9
12:52
<ogra>
Nubae, well, as long as avahi works, italc will as well
12:52
cyberorg, yeah, same here (though stephane had to bump to 1.0.9.1 due to a versioning prob)
12:53
but its the same you have
12:53
<Nubae>
gonna test with an eeepc running netbook remix first
12:53
<cyberorg>
ogra, i have not used UI improvement patch that hides the client's icon, that would be the only difference
12:53
<ogra>
anywyy, GF is poking me ... got to go
12:53
<Nubae>
bie ogra
12:54
<gbolte>
cyberorg, http://pastebin.com/m784421c2 can you check that and see if it looks like the same script you have
12:54
<cyberorg>
gbolte, yes, same
12:55
<gbolte>
hmm I wonder how yours works and mine dose not then
12:56
cyberorg, dose your variable output something other than Default
12:56
<cyberorg>
gbolte, it is same on all gnome sessions
12:56
<gbolte>
ah screw it we are never going to use kde here
12:57* gbolte disables the script
12:57
<cyberorg>
gbolte, i think i told you, try kde > 4.1, it really is good, i am a gnomie, using kde since almost a month now
12:58
<gbolte>
yeah I dont feel like re-training ~23 idiots
12:58
<cyberorg>
:)
12:59
give them sugar: http://dev.compiz-fusion.org/~cyberorg/
12:59
tested on ltsp
12:59
screenshots are ltsp client running in virtualbox
13:00
<gbolte>
cyberorg, while I would love to treat them like they are children I doubt they would be able to use it as it is not windows like enough
13:00
<FuriousGeorge>
for the record, i asked in #kde whether they thought i should use 4.1 in production, and within 1 second three people said "no". And i thought they would be most likely to say "yes"
13:00
<gbolte>
haha
13:00
yeah thats the other reason
13:01
<FuriousGeorge>
and i never use gnome
13:01
<cyberorg>
FuriousGeorge, we have a magician doing opensuse packaging beineri ;)
13:01
<FuriousGeorge>
cyberorg: oh, well, if you have a magician that's another story.
13:02
myself, being a debutant alchemist... that's just a rank above wizard, you know
13:02
;)
13:03
<gbolte>
FuriousGeorge, what kinda environment are you running ltsp in
13:05
<FuriousGeorge>
kde-3.5
13:05
as of yesterday, when i met ltsp
13:06* cyberorg goes to bed, 'night
13:06
<FuriousGeorge>
'night
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13:06
<gbolte>
night thanks for the help with the double icons
13:08
<FuriousGeorge>
gbolte: where do you have double icons?
13:08
<gbolte>
I had double icons for removable media on my desktop
13:08
but not anymore
13:09
<FuriousGeorge>
what was the problem?
13:10
cyberorg is a compiz-fusion dev too?
13:10
<gbolte>
the script that creates the device icons for kde was not working right so gnome was mounting the correct one and then the script was also mounting one for kde
13:10
so I got 2 icons one that worked and one that did not
13:10
<FuriousGeorge>
sounds like it was a real PITA to troubleshoot
13:11
<gbolte>
cyberorg, knew what it was right away
13:11
but yeah it was for me
13:11
and evidently it works properly for him
13:11
<FuriousGeorge>
its always nice when the whole irc thing pays immediate dividends
13:11
<gbolte>
indeed
13:12
FuriousGeorge, so are you planning on deploying ltsp in a school?
13:12
<FuriousGeorge>
business/medical practice
13:12
they want thin clients up front for aesthetic purposes
13:12
<gbolte>
ah
13:13
I see
13:13
cool
13:13
I work for a medium sized chemical company
13:13
we deployed it to our nearly 30 employees
13:13
:D
13:17
FuriousGeorge, are the thin clients at your work for use by clients who come in while they wait?
13:17
<FuriousGeorge>
using kde?
13:18
no, at the Point of Service/Sale they are for the employees workstations
13:18
<gbolte>
ah
13:18
ok
13:18
<FuriousGeorge>
they didnt want to use a big tower and pc as their "register"
13:18
<gbolte>
right
13:18
makes sense
13:18
<FuriousGeorge>
check out the samsung 720xt
13:18
you wont find confirmation anywhere on the web or in the user's manual, but it works great with ltsp
13:18X0d_of_N0d has quit IRC
13:19
<FuriousGeorge>
sound hardware even supported, though no working in gentoo-ltsp, atm
13:21
<gbolte>
FuriousGeorge, what kinda memory/processor
13:21X0d_of_N0d has joined #ltsp
13:21
<FuriousGeorge>
geode 1500 (1ghz 256mb)
13:22
the screen on the 920Xt (19") is actually a decent screen with 1000:1 contrast, this one is 17" and not as good as you would expect from a samsung lcd
13:22
<gbolte>
pretty sweet setup
13:23
couldnt find that one
13:24
<FuriousGeorge>
which? the 920xt is on newegg for instance
13:24
but they arent easy to find, you're right
13:24
no thin client is, really :)
13:25
<gbolte>
couldnt find it on samsungs site
13:25
<FuriousGeorge>
samsung barely acknowledges it exists
13:25queryquery has joined #ltsp
13:25
<FuriousGeorge>
you gotta search for it in their search thing
13:25
i called to ask if it supported pxeboot, cuz it didnt say in the manual
13:26
(it said it did but for "recovery" purposes, so i didnt know if it did some sort of specialized pxeboot)
13:26
and no one at samsung knew what the heck i was talking about
13:26
they are a monitor company not a computer company
13:26
hp also makes integrated lcd thin clients, cuz they bought a company called evo, but they sport less power and cost more $$$
13:27
<gbolte>
http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-920XT-19-1000-Contrast/dp/B00113S6DS
13:28
<FuriousGeorge>
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824001247&Tpk=920xt
13:28
yeah
13:28
better specs there
13:30
<gbolte>
looks pretty cool
13:31
our hardware its a bit overkill
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13:33
<pdjbarber>
trying to boot into OpenSuSE Kiwi-ltsp with a 900mhz laptop, the kernel appears to be booting, but when it gets so far into boot process it is trying to ping "tftp."
13:33
where is this variable set?
13:33
<gbolte>
pdjbarber, is it failing
13:33
<pdjbarber>
yes...and rebooting after 120secs
13:33
<FuriousGeorge>
yeah, all these devices are less thin clients, then they are crappy computers with tiny solid state hard disks, running windows xpe, or some random linux distro
13:34
<gbolte>
pdjbarber, yeah we had that issue too
13:34LaserJock has left #ltsp
13:34
<gbolte>
pdjbarber, we just remade the image
13:34
<pdjbarber>
did you get around it?
13:34
<FuriousGeorge>
too much power for a thin client, not enough for a real computer, certainly for the price
13:34
luckily they boot pxe
13:34
<gbolte>
hehe
13:34
<FuriousGeorge>
the hp ones actually advertise that they work with ltsp, too
13:34
<pdjbarber>
gbolte: using kiwi-ltsp-setup -s ?
13:35
<gbolte>
yeah FuriousGeorge a few of our clients are running dual core amd 2.2Ghz procs
13:36
<FuriousGeorge>
gbolte: that pc was probably still cheaper than many hp "thin clients" anyway
13:36
<gbolte>
pdjbarber, yes
13:36
<FuriousGeorge>
for a few extra cm^3 you get the option of using it like a regular computer
13:37
so you can fire up windows and play warcraft :)
13:37
<pdjbarber>
will give it a try ...thanks
13:37
<gbolte>
FuriousGeorge, yeah all of our clients are fully capable of running independent
13:37
pdjbarber, no prob
13:37
FuriousGeorge, just gotta pop a hard drive in and they would work fine
13:38
GeForce 7050 PV integrated video
13:38
not sure how well that would play WoW
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13:38
<pdjbarber>
once image rebuilt, will i have to make changes to tftp setup etc?
13:39
<gbolte>
pdjbarber, it should automagically do all that for you
13:39
<pdjbarber>
ok thanks again
13:42mhterres has quit IRC
13:42
<Lns>
Are there any known issues with nm-applet and ltsp? I get so many errors in ~/.xsession-errors - while troubleshooting why some peoples' gnome desktops don't come up fully (seems nautilus and/or gnome-panel fail to load randomly).. ?
13:42mhterres has joined #ltsp
13:43
<ltsppbot>
"Lns" pasted ".xsession-errors" (55 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/54
13:48
<Lns>
Maybe I should just uninstall network-manager-gnome?
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13:53
<queryquery>
i`m trying to make a rdesktop connection with ltsp, but it`s very very slow, to show user and logging screen of windows 2003 server, is taking a lot.
13:53
<Lns>
I see https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/123808 - but the ~/.xsession-errors complaints regarding nm-applet persists (though I don't get the applet itself in gnome)... Anyone have any clues?
13:53
<queryquery>
who knows why?
13:53
<Lns>
queryquery: have you tried an rdesktop connection from a non-ltsp station?
13:54
<queryquery>
yes, it`s ok
13:54
<Lns>
what kind of bandwidth do you have to the win2k3 server?
13:54
<queryquery>
10/100mbit/s
13:54
<Lns>
local
13:54
<queryquery>
yes, local
13:54
i dont know why, but it`s very very slow =/
13:55
<Lns>
not sure..i use rdesktop sessions to local winNT/2k servers all the time using terminal server client and it works fine
13:55
<queryquery>
sometimes not load, the login screen =/
13:55
<gbolte>
queryquery, what kinda video do you have on your ltsp machines
13:55Q-FUNK has quit IRC
13:55
<queryquery>
it`s a one ltsp machine
13:55
a test,
13:55
<gbolte>
I am willing to bet it has to do with graphical performance
13:56
<queryquery>
a trident vga card
13:56
simple card
13:56
<gbolte>
dose it have 2d acceleration
13:56
we had a simalar issue here
13:56
<queryquery>
wait a moment, i will check
13:57
its a trident tgui-9680 a pci ( not ex )
13:57
i dont understand why, somethimes login of windows dont appear
13:57
<gbolte>
oh
13:57
hm
13:58
yeah our issue here was mainly with slow window drawing in rdesktop
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13:58
<pem725>
Greetings, anyone available to answer a simple (I hope) ip forwarding question?
13:59
<queryquery>
i can paste half part of my lts.conf ?
13:59
<gbolte>
queryquery, use pastebin
13:59
!pastebin
13:59
<ltspbot`>
gbolte: Error: "pastebin" is not a valid command.
13:59
<gbolte>
aww
13:59
lame
13:59
http://pastebin.com/
14:00
<queryquery>
!pastebin
14:00
<ltspbot`>
queryquery: Error: "pastebin" is not a valid command.
14:00
<queryquery>
hehe
14:00
<Pascal_1>
Bonsoir !
14:00
<gbolte>
use that website to post your lts if you would like
14:00Pascal_1 has left #ltsp
14:01
<pem725>
is it possible to use an ltsp-standalone-server in ubuntu as a gateway for other regular computers?
14:01
regular as in standard Linux desktops?
14:01
<queryquery>
gbolte: http://pastebin.com/dbb02691
14:02K_O-Gnom has quit IRC
14:02
<Lns>
!pastebot
14:02
<ltspbot`>
Lns: "pastebot" is The LTSP pastebot is at http://pastebot.ltsp.org. Please paste all text longer than a line or two to the pastebot, as it helps to reduce traffic in the channel. A link to the content will be pasted in the channel.
14:02
<gbolte>
queryquery, yeah I am not sure but I think there may be an actual trident module and if there is you should use that over vesa
14:03
<queryquery>
i can use XSERVER = trident
14:03
<gbolte>
the reason is there may be better 2d acceleration which may help your rdesktop sessions
14:03
<queryquery>
but dont have changes =/
14:04
<gbolte>
oh
14:04
hmm
14:04
<queryquery>
hmmm
14:04
i will try with another vga card
14:05
<gbolte>
yeah if that dosent work than I am not sure
14:05
anyway I gtg
14:05
lunch
14:05
:)
14:05
bbl
14:05
<Lns>
lucky you gbolte ;)
14:06
<queryquery>
gbolte thanks so much :D
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14:41
<Lns>
Anyone know anything about bugs/issues w/gnome-panel randomly not launching correctly under ltsp/ubuntu hardy (and earlier versions) ?
14:41
I'm getting almost all of my lab techs telling me that randomly the panels won't appear when students log in, and they have to reboot the TC and then it works.
14:42
My earlier msg described some .xsession-errors entries re: nm-applet, but i'm not sure if that has anything to do with it.
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15:07
<hcadmin>
does anyone know why the login would take especially long
15:07
<Blinny>
!seen Gadi
15:07
<ltspbot`>
Blinny: Gadi was last seen in #ltsp 1 week, 1 day, 22 hours, 24 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <Gadi> which means the ldm parent process does not proceed to call the rc.d K scripts
15:07
<hcadmin>
i am authenticating with kerberos and using account data from ldap
15:08
it takes like 30-60 seconds to produce the desktop
15:08
<johnny>
Lns, force off nm then
15:08
<hcadmin>
via console it is very quick though
15:08
<johnny>
see
15:09
<Lns>
johnny: you mean uninstall the applet?
15:10
I wish this was done by default in LTSP thin-clients
15:10
it looked as though a bug report from gutsy did this but the errors persist on my hardy installs
15:14
<Blinny>
ogra: Yeah, it looks like it's gvfs mounts of floppy drives that is causing my users to not be able to log in after an interrupted session - even after killall -s9 -uuser
15:14
<johnny>
well hopefully it would just work :)
15:15
<Blinny>
People without floppy drives are able to log in just fine after an improperly terminated session (after being presented w/ Gadi's "Do you want to kill your previous session?" ldm rc.d script)
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15:20
<Blinny>
Should I file a bug against gvfs ?
15:20bobby_C has quit IRC
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15:25
<Blinny>
Damn.
15:25Blinny has quit IRC
15:26
<hcadmin>
has anyone ever thought of creating a small swap partition on a local hard drive so that if memory fills up paging won't have to go through the network?
15:26
<johnny>
most people don't use hard drives on their systems
15:26
but ltsp should work with it
15:26
there's a var in lts.conf
15:27
<hcadmin>
really?
15:27
<johnny>
just pass the path
15:27
most people would prefer to use network swap
15:27
since they have no hard drives
15:27bobby_C has joined #ltsp
15:27
<johnny>
and now compcache might be used to reduce the memory needs even more
15:27
i don't know about the performance impact tho
15:28
<hcadmin>
i have a fat client setup, and in that case, it might make more sense, right?
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15:30
<hcadmin>
what is the variable in lts.conf?
15:32X0d_of_N0d has quit IRC
15:36
<hcadmin>
johnny: do you know how i would go about creating a local swap configuration?
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15:40
<johnny>
USE_LOCAL_SWAP=/dev/path
15:40
maybe
15:40
check your lts-parameters.txt
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16:01
<johnny>
hcadmin, sorry.. it's just Y or N or T or F
16:01
it'll search for existing ones
16:02
<vagrantc>
valid booleans are Y/N/True/False in any case
16:02
<johnny>
dberkholz, you about?
16:03
<vagrantc>
and yes/no
16:03
technically, valid booleans are y/yes/true in any case and *anything* else for false :)
16:04Nubae1 has joined #ltsp
16:04
<vagrantc>
but maybe someday we'll be smarter.
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16:05
<hcadmin>
so where do you specify the swap partition for USE_LOCAL_SWAP
16:05
<vagrantc>
it uses all local partitions it can find that are of type swap
16:06
<johnny>
you don't hcadmin .. i just said you don't
16:06
read up
16:06
<dberkholz>
johnny: hi there. just finishing a gentoo irc meeting
16:07
<johnny>
dberkholz, haven't heard from you in a bit, you doing OK?
16:07
<dberkholz>
johnny: yeah, i haven't been at the computer much
16:08
having a baby in 3-4 days
16:08
<hcadmin>
johnny: sorry, i didn't see the 't' ... it'll vs i'll
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16:08
<johnny>
they're letting you have a baby?
16:08
lol
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16:09
<johnny>
dberkholz, my sister is due in december
16:09
<dberkholz>
johnny: my linux time has basically become about 7:30-9am pacific time
16:09
<johnny>
ouch..
16:09
<dberkholz>
sorry i still haven't looked over the rest of your stuff
16:09
<johnny>
it is starting to become a barrier
16:10
i have made some fixes tho
16:10
<dberkholz>
johnny: will you be around during that time slot tomorrow?
16:10
<johnny>
uhmm.. not normally..
16:10
i can try
16:10
<dberkholz>
that would be 10:30-noon or so for you?
16:11
you don't need to be sitting there the whole time, just able to respond within ~10-15 min if i have questions
16:12
<johnny>
yeah.. i'm not usually up that early.. lately been talking to mid morning europeans :)
16:12
<dberkholz>
ah, i see
16:13
i think that if the two of us actually schedule time then i will have to do it then
16:15
<johnny>
i'm just wondering what you're trying to accomplish
16:15
you have a sucessful install now
16:15
relatively..
16:15
<Lns>
dberkholz: congrats on the coming baby - My wife is having one in 24-48 hours as well =)
16:15
<johnny>
i just fixed some fresh install issues
16:16
<dberkholz>
Lns: good times
16:16* Lns cheers'
16:16
<dberkholz>
johnny: a full code review of everything you've done before i merge it and give you commit access
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17:00
<Lns>
Anyone have issues with FF3 and multiple users? I'm getting consistent results with a full class (~30 students) logging on LTSP workstations - 1-2 can get onto Firefox, and the rest get the spinning wheel and "Starting Firefox" panel tab - and then nothing.
17:01
How do I go about troubleshooting that?
17:01leio_ has quit IRC
17:02
<johnny>
try it from the cli?
17:02
and make sure it isn't running in the background
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17:02
<Lns>
johnny: right - they don't get the "ff is already running" deal.. i do see in the xsession errors this: firefox: Fatal IO error 2 (No such file or directory) on X server localhost:13.0.
17:02
on a certain user
17:03
and that is under this:
17:03
(firefox:12788): GnomeUI-WARNING **: While connecting to session manager:
17:03
IO error occured doing Protocol Setup on connection.
17:04
i haven't tried from a terminal as i'm not onsite..but i can vnc in
17:04
to the server itself
17:05LaserJock has joined #ltsp
17:06
<Lns>
That's just general enough for me to shake my head
17:18
<ltsppbot>
"Lns" pasted "standard ~/.xsession-errors w/user trying to log in and launch Firefox 3 (Ubuntu Hardy LTSP)" (56 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/55
17:19
<Lns>
Can anyone make any sense of the pastebot errors? There are so many I'm not sure which ones could be affecting others...
17:21
This is the same .xsession-errors (3033 bytes) in every user that's logged in as a test via TC/LDM, started Gnome, and tried to launch Firefox.
17:25
:( nobody wants to help poor old me :p
17:26
<johnny>
nobody knows
17:26
try asking the firefox people
17:26
<Lns>
k
17:26
ty =)
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17:58
<Lns>
Do /etc/X11/Xsession.d/ scripts run under LDM?
17:59
I installed numlockx package and it puts a script in there to turn numlock on - but this doesn't happen when booting my clients up.
18:00
<johnny>
i think you specify that in an ldm rc.d script
18:00
<Lns>
specify what? running of Xsession.d scripts or the numlock itself?
18:01
<johnny>
numlock
18:01
<Lns>
oh
18:01
jeez
18:01
i wish i knew that
18:01
<johnny>
i could be wrong.. but that's where i put my blanking
18:01
so as to save power
18:01
a little bit at least
18:01
<Lns>
=p... so i'm guessing by that logic, LDM doesn't source /etc/X11/Xsession.d/ files?
18:01
<johnny>
i'd suggest you wait for somebody else to answer that :)
18:02
i think it might have to tho
18:02
<Lns>
i would hope so
18:02
that'd be a LOT of manual configuration for ltsp users
18:02
<vagrantc>
Lns: at least on debian and ubuntu, ldm runs /etc/X11/Xsession, which calls all the Xsession.d stuff
18:02
<Lns>
vagrantc: you were the one that i worked with the other day w/numlockx right?
18:03
<vagrantc>
although if a user selects the session, it currently doesn't use /etc/X11/Xsession
18:03
Lns: don't recall doing numlockx stuff ...
18:03
<Lns>
oops..nm that was sbalneav
18:03
<johnny>
oh.. numlockx..
18:03
never used that.. just the manual
18:03
<vagrantc>
with newer versions of ldm, there's also code to do that sort of thing by setting values in lts.conf
18:03
<johnny>
i wonder where i got that idea
18:04
<Lns>
vagrantc: that'd be nice...but you know it'd be so cool to have the "backward" compatibility w/normal packages that don't know about ltsp
18:04
seems like a lot of duplicated effort
18:05
<vagrantc>
Lns: with using /etc/X11/Xsession.d hooks, it won't work until a user logs in ... that's why there's code for handling it from within ldm
18:05
<Lns>
OH
18:05
is that the case with GDM as well?
18:05
<vagrantc>
presumably.
18:06
<Lns>
man...well i guess i'm 1 out of 1,000 people who need numlock on for entering a username/pw
18:07
<vagrantc>
well, it was recently added to ldm...
18:07
so someone else out there must need it.
18:07
<Lns>
oh i know... :) thx for that btw
18:08
is there a way to do this until that code is unleashed into the wild?
18:08
i'm guessing in the ldm scripts as johnny said
18:12
/opt/ltsp/i386/usr/lib/ldm/rc.d/ is the place to put it?
18:19
vagrantc: can you check this real quick and let me know if it looks ok? http://lns.wikidot.com/xenablenumlock
18:19
<vagrantc>
Lns: that will still only work on login
18:20
<Lns>
ugh
18:20
hehe
18:20
so....is there any way at all?
18:21
<vagrantc>
currently no.
18:21
well, depends on your version
18:21
<Lns>
Ubuntu 8.04.1
18:22
<vagrantc>
hmmm... i don't even see it in trunk ...
18:22
i definitely saw the patch at some point, and thought it was merged
18:23
<Lns>
can you tell me why Xsession/ldm scripts don't get run until after login? I know there's a good reason but i just am not aware of it
18:23
<vagrantc>
because that's exactly what they're designed for?
18:24
for ldm, there are plans to make hooks for pre-login, but that isn't implemented yet.
18:25
<Lns>
so maybe i'm not understanding...forgive me if i sound like a moron.. isn't LDM/GDM/KDM/etc launched via X ?
18:25
<vagrantc>
other way around. *DM launches X
18:25
<Lns>
So how does *DM display itself?
18:25
it's own graphical toolkit.. ?
18:26
<vagrantc>
ah, you caught me in a web of lies! :P
18:26
<Lns>
lol
18:26* Lns feels proud of himself
18:27
<vagrantc>
http://marc.info/?l=ltsp-developer&m=121630805906461&w=2
18:28* vagrantc can't figure out how to get a thread view
18:28
<vagrantc>
http://marc.info/?t=121559921100004&r=1&w=2
18:28
there.
18:28
<Lns>
*hold music*
18:29
<vagrantc>
i don't know what happened in the end.
18:30
<Lns>
wow
18:30
strange to think my issue was being talked about just last month
18:31
<vagrantc>
issues tend to come in waves.
18:32
<Lns>
heh... ok well maybe i'll sub to the -devel list and post a question reply seeing where it is..hopefully it can be brought to hardy
18:38
thx a bunch for the help vagrantc
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18:55* Lns waves good night to chan
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19:21
<jammcq>
hello folks
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19:33
<jammcq>
hey, it's dtrask
19:33
<dtrask>
hey!
19:33* dtrask has missed all you guys
19:33
<jammcq>
yeah, where you been?
19:33
<dtrask>
just plain busy
19:34
<jammcq>
ah
19:34
<dtrask>
school started today...everything is finally done
19:34
<jammcq>
oh wow, doesn't start around here until next tuesday
19:35
<dtrask>
lot of schools in Maine start before labor day, but not all
19:35
some start next week
19:35
<jammcq>
michigan has some sort of law passed in the last couple of years that says school can't start before labor day
19:35
<dtrask>
ah
19:35
brb
19:35
<jammcq>
michigan is a big tourism state and it was hurting business
19:36
<dtrask>
maine is too, but they figure what's two days or so
19:36
i guess
19:36
plus we get out earlier to start the season I guess
19:41
<jammcq>
dtrask: you gonna join us at BTS-2008 ?
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19:55
<dtrask>
I'm back...sure...when is it?
19:55
jammcq: when is it?
19:56
I'm coming out to indianapolis around Sept 25th to present at the k12 open minds conference
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20:20
<jammcq>
dtrask: we're shooting for Nov 6th-9th
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20:24
<djacidjac>
hi, can anyone suggest a specific NIC that definately works on the client side?
20:25
<jammcq>
djacidjac: rtl8139 is pretty popular
20:25
prolly one of the most common you'll find in thin clients
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20:29
<djacidjac>
3com seems to be a little more prolific on ebay, any definates from them?
20:35
ah, found some 8139s, thanks for the info.
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