IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 17 April 2007   (all times are UTC)

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02:59
<tsurc>
I would like your opinions: I have 3 LTSP servers and a NIS/NFS server, all connected to the same Gb Switch. All the servers have 2 NIC's and I would like to seperate the traffic. any opinions or comments anyone?
04:00
ah.. US are counting sheep still ;)
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04:54
<envite>
Hello all from Spain
04:54
Hola a todos desde España
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06:05
<cliebow>
tsurc:i'll catch you from school..wont be much help..but maybe if you tell me..or your teddy bear..the answer will come
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06:06
<untitled>
hello
06:06
<envite>
hello untitled
06:07
<untitled>
I wonder why I can't set screen resolution on the client
06:07
<tsurc>
Think I'm going to end up giving the second NIC on all the servers belong to e different network.... then stick a second switch between them.
06:07
<untitled>
it's always default
06:08
<envite>
untitled: are you sure you're not running VESA ?
06:08
<tsurc>
giving -> making
06:09
cliebow: I'm just off home for my lunch, I'll catch up with you later. what time zone are you on?
06:10
<untitled>
envite: i am pretty sure i am :)))
06:11
ok, so that's it all about..
06:11
<envite>
well
06:11
check your xorg.conf
06:11
it's automagically created in the client
06:11
<untitled>
driver is "nv"
06:11
<envite>
you'll not see it in the server
06:12
<untitled>
oh
06:12
:)
06:12
envite: so, i can't set resolution like 1280x1024 with vesa?
06:12
<envite>
you need to use the "Good Old Alt-F2 Trick (TM)"
06:12
;)
06:12
<untitled>
=]
06:12
<envite>
untitled:
06:12
yes
06:12
VESA is limited by nature
06:12
<untitled>
ok
06:13
<envite>
it's simply the first attempt to extend VGA
06:13
<untitled>
i don't even know if those graphic cards support anything but vesa))
06:14
envite: what about windows-clients on ltsp?
06:14
i got debian working fine
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06:26
<cliebow>
-5
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07:06
<sbalneav>
Morning all
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07:20
<ogra>
!s
07:20
<ltspbot>
ogra: "s" is Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
07:20
<ogra>
before i forget :)
07:46
<IRCzito>
Hi ogra... I see the Jim McQuillan presentation in FISL, and there he show TCM - Thin Client Manager, where can I see the source of this project?
07:47
<sbalneav>
IRCzito: It's in Ubuntu and Edubuntu
07:47
<ogra>
https://launchpad.net/tcm
07:48
<sbalneav>
just apt-get source thin-client-manager-gnome
07:48
<IRCzito>
Hi sbalneav :D
07:48
<ogra>
there are some fixes in the package that arent in the branch, so what sbalneav says is better
07:49
<sbalneav>
Hello IRCzito
08:00
<IRCzito>
sbalneav: on the last day of FISL, bgomes and I ran into Pitter Punk, and he said he wanted to see you and Jim to talk to you guys about LTSP5 port for slackware. He suggested us to create a package for slack-builds. He said there can possibly be a chance that it be added to the next version of the slack
08:01
<sbalneav>
Ah, cool.
08:01
Jim's on the plane back to Detroit Rock City right now,
08:01
I'm still travelling for another 8 hours
08:02
Send me an email with your email addresses, and lets see if we can schedule a time to all be here in #ltsp
08:02
<IRCzito>
I got home last night
08:02
<sbalneav>
Or #slackware, whichever
08:02
sbalneav@ltsp.org
08:03
<ogra>
IRCzito, it should be possible to easily add slackware support to the current code ... have a look at the plugin subdirs and add one for slackware ;)
08:07
<IRCzito>
ok, i will send Pitter Punk an email describing all the work related to ltsp5+slackware that we've done so that he can give us a hand
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08:10
<Guaraldo>
sbalneav: Hi, Scotty... How was your travel??? Here is Luiz Guaraldo...
08:10
<sbalneav>
Hey Luiz!
08:10
How's things in Propus today?
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08:11
<Guaraldo>
Mutch better... yesterday we have organized the tables and the computers... Today we can realy work...
08:12
Was everithing Ok in your fights?
08:12
ops...
08:12
:%s/fights/flights
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08:13
<ogra>
IRCzito, just make sure to work on the existing codebase so we can merge all distro efforts in the end :)
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08:18
<IRCzito>
ogra: ok
08:19
that sounds good!
08:19
<ogra>
feel free to pick sbalneavs or vagrantc's barins about it as well :)
08:19
*brains
08:19
(as well as mine i meant) ;)
08:20
<IRCzito>
sure!!!
08:21
<Guaraldo>
sbalneav: Too mutch work late?
08:22
sbalneav: Fisl is always good, but, in the end, we feel very tired, don't we?
08:22
<sbalneav>
Guaraldo: yes
08:22
Some of us are STILL awake from yesterday :)
08:25
<Guaraldo>
Like you... Man, I can't beleave you did not sleep yet! You are strong... :-D
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08:27
<sbalneav>
Strong? No, just can't sleep on an airplane. :)
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08:33
<mhterres>
hello guys
08:33
hi sbalneav
08:34
how was your travel ?
08:34
<sbalneav>
Hello Macello!
08:34
Still doing it.
08:34
<mhterres>
where are you now ?
08:34
<sbalneav>
I'm in Newark for another couple of hours
08:34
Then onto Minneapolis
08:34
Finally to winnipeg
08:34
<mhterres>
Hmmm
08:34
<sbalneav>
I should be home by 4:00 CST
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08:34
<mhterres>
And where is Jim ?
08:35
<sbalneav>
Alberto!!!
08:35
<mhterres>
Is he with you ?
08:35
<sbalneav>
He's on his way back to Detroit. On a plane as we speak.
08:35
<bengoa>
sbalneav, hi Scotty!!
08:35
<Guaraldo>
:-D
08:35
<mhterres>
HMmm
08:35
<cliebow_>
wow feels like so mant new friends
08:36
<bengoa>
sbalneav, what about the weather in NYC? So much ice?
08:36
<sbalneav>
No, above zero, and partly cloudy
08:36
<cliebow_>
no ice in maine
08:36
<mhterres>
sbalneav, great pictures, I saw them all yesterday with Renata
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08:36
<sbalneav>
cliebow_: same friends as last year, but I told them to start hanging around in #ltsp where all the cool kids hang out.
08:36
:)
08:37
<cliebow_>
heh 8~)
08:37
<mhterres>
sbalneav, hehehehe
08:38
I will be here now, all the time :-)
08:38
<Guaraldo>
me too...
08:38
here and in the Brazilian channel...
08:39
<bengoa>
we have brazilian channel for LTSP?
08:39
<Guaraldo>
yeah!, bengoa... #ltsp-br
08:40
<bengoa>
few people
08:40
<Guaraldo>
see that Scotty's bot is there too...
08:40
<bengoa>
i saw :)
08:41
<sbalneav>
Yeah
08:41
ltspbrbot
08:41
Actually, if you guys want to build LTSP business in -br, hang out THERE
08:42
We get a lot of Brazillians in here we can't speak with, having people idle in -br that we could help out, and have someone translate for would be GREAT for LTSP in -br
08:42
and, good business for A Certain Bazilian IT company we know!!!
08:42
:)
08:43
<bengoa>
hauhau
08:43
<mhterres>
heheehe
08:43
<bengoa>
hey Scotty, I hope to see you next year.
08:43
<Guaraldo>
hehehehe
08:43
<bengoa>
we hope :)
08:43
<sbalneav>
I will be there.
08:43
Count on it.
08:43
<mhterres>
great
08:43
<Guaraldo>
yeah!, all we... including my wife and my kids...
08:44
<mhterres>
Guaraldo and the Guaraldinhos :-)
08:44
<bengoa>
Me and Lise :)
08:44
<mhterres>
And me and Renata
08:46
Scotty, I would be great if the fisl is for 10 days, don't you think ? 4 days pass so fast, and we have so much things to do that we can give all the atention we like to do for you guys
08:47
I think it would be great
08:47
let me correct my wrong sentence
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08:58
<sbalneav>
Sure would!
08:59
<bengoa>
I think that we would make a 6 month fisl :)
09:03
<mhterres>
I'm back
09:03
hehehee
09:14
<sbalneav>
!topics
09:14
<ltspbot>
sbalneav: "topics" is To get a list of topics, type ltspbot: factoids search --values
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10:57
<paavum>
Hello
10:57
I'm trying to run rdesktop, and I get the login screen of my win2k server
10:58
however when I make a successful login I always get a segmentation fault error
10:58
strange thing is ...
10:58
when I try to run it on another linux box, it works wonders
10:58
I even logged in via ssh from another box
10:59
and the rdesktop worked
10:59
can anybody help me out?
10:59
thnx!
11:00
<Gadi>
paavum: you get the segfault on the thin client?
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11:03
<blinky_ghost>
hi can anybody tell me if it's possible yet to autologon on ldm?
11:03
<vagrantc>
blinky_ghost: i don't think without hacking it
11:04
blinky_ghost: you could try sdm, which does support autologin
11:04
blinky_ghost: or gdm also can be configured to support remote autologin
11:04
<paavum>
yes
11:04
Gadi... yes
11:05
<blinky_ghost>
vangrantc, how do I activate it on sdm?
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11:06
<vagrantc>
sdm does require a little tweaking of the config file to get sound and localdev working
11:07
<Gadi>
paavum: perhaps you are running out of memory
11:07
<blinky_ghost>
do you have a howto or something?
11:07* vagrantc is looking
11:07
<paavum>
Gadi ... dont think so ... I have 1.5 Gb RAM and only about 5 clients running firefox only with ICEWM
11:08
<Gadi>
paavum: are you running rdesktop *on* the thinclient or on the server?
11:08
<paavum>
on the server
11:08
<Gadi>
ah, thats different
11:08
<paavum>
:$
11:08
<Gadi>
:)
11:08
<paavum>
Kinda missed the "on" the first time :P:P
11:10
<vagrantc>
blinky_ghost: for autologin with sdm ... install sdm on the server, and sdm-terminal on the thin-client ... configure /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/sdm/sdm.config with an ssh key, set autologin to yes, and add that key to your user(s) ~/.ssh/authorized_keys on the server
11:10
<paavum>
Gadi ... so you have any ideas?
11:11
<Gadi>
paavum: perhaps run strace onit
11:11
and see where it dies
11:11
are you logged in via ldm or XDMCP?
11:11
<blinky_ghost>
vangrantc, does sdm support localdevices?
11:11
<vagrantc>
blinky_ghost: configuring sound and localdev is a little more tricky ... think you need to play with sshopts and something else.
11:12
blinky_ghost: it doesn't support it out of the box, but you might just need to tweak the config file to get it to work.
11:12
<blinky_ghost>
ok, thanks :)
11:13
<paavum>
ldm
11:13
I think
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11:21
<blinky_ghost>
vagrantc, I tried to install sdm-terminal on chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 but says it doesn't exist
11:22
<Gadi>
ogra: ping
11:22
<ogra>
Gadi, hey
11:22
<blinky_ghost>
vagrantc, nevermind, ubuntu replaced my sources.list :)
11:22
<Gadi>
hey - if someone wanted to download feisty CD and have LTSP - which is the best approach: server or desktop?
11:22
<ogra>
ubuntu doesnt replace anything on its own :)
11:23
<Gadi>
does server do LTSP automagically?
11:23
<ogra>
Gadi, desktop
11:23
no
11:23
neither does
11:23
<Gadi>
and then apt-get install ltsp-server-standalone
11:23
<ogra>
only edubutnu
11:23
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPQuickInstall
11:23
<Gadi>
ok
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11:33
<paavum>
Gadi --> I now have the strace :/ it does not tell me much... perhaps you could take a look at it?
11:37
Another weird thing
11:38
I cant seem to connect to the pastebot from my thin client
11:38
<blinky_ghost>
vangratc, what's the ssh key parameter I should put on sdm-config? id_dsa?
11:39
<vagrantc>
blinky_ghost: full path to the key
11:39
blinky_ghost: relative to /opt/ltsp/i386
11:40
i usually stick it in /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/sdm/autologin and then put /etc/sdm/autologin
11:40
<ogra>
vagrantc, do we have a howto for that ?
11:40
blinky_ghost, if not, would you mind to wiki it for others ?
11:41
<blinky_ghost>
ogra, sure. give me the link of the webpage
11:42
<ogra>
wiki.ltsp.org :)
11:42
<vagrantc>
ogra: nope
11:42* vagrantc would like to rewrite sdm soon
11:42
<ogra>
make it something like EnablingAutologinOnLTSP5 :)
11:42
<vagrantc>
heh.
11:42
<ogra>
vagrantc, how about merging ldm and sdm ;)
11:43
i'm planning a rewrite anyway
11:43
<vagrantc>
ogra: rewrite both, eh?
11:43
<ogra>
nah pick the best from bth and merge :)
11:43
<vagrantc>
well, sounds like an idea.
11:43
<ogra>
*both
11:43
lets talk it over in sevilla
11:43* ogra makes a note for another spec to register
11:43
<vagrantc>
i do feel like ldm is a pretty but crippled sdm :)
11:44
<ogra>
right and i feel ldm is pretty but limited *g*
11:44* vagrantc has had a helluva a time with the maintainer for lessdisks and sdm
11:44
<ogra>
crippled sounds so hard
11:44
<vagrantc>
heh
11:44
limited in intention
11:44
by intention ...
11:45
<ogra>
what about lessdisk ? i thought you wanted to let it die ?
11:45
<vagrantc>
i do!
11:45
<ogra>
i just recently saw a bug in launcpad for it
11:45
<vagrantc>
there's 6 release-critical bugs on it, some of which are nearly 2 years old.
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11:45
<Gadi>
paavum: sounds like maybe there's a network problem on the server?
11:45
<ogra>
we should probably wipe it from the archive in ubuntu :)
11:45
<vagrantc>
i found some RC bugs shortly after the release of sarge
11:45
ogra: as upstream, i would recommend not wasting your time on it.
11:45
<ogra>
and point people to ltsp
11:46
indeed, but if people file bugs it means they use it
11:46
<vagrantc>
i filed a wishlist bug to remove lessdisks from debian... much like the RC bugs, no response from the maintainer
11:46* ogra checks launchpad
11:46
<vagrantc>
i will explore force-orphaning it
11:47
<ogra>
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lessdisks/
11:47
three bugs
11:47
<vagrantc>
ogra: if you can exclude packages from ubuntu that are badly broken in debian, i would do so.
11:47
<ogra>
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lessdisks/+bug/96374
11:47
aha
11:47
its not istallable anyway
11:49
<vagrantc>
at one point, i had considered making metapackages for lessdisks to ltsp migration, but now it's not even worth it
11:51
<ogra>
i asked for removal, lets see if its not to late for feisty
11:51
<vagrantc>
http://bugs.debian.org/312402
11:51
ooops
11:51
wrong one
11:52
http://bugs.debian.org/389498
11:52
<ogra>
heh
11:52
<vagrantc>
they're related
11:53
several of the RC bugs were actually fixed upstream months before they were even reported in debian, yet for some reason jonas refused to update the packages.
11:53
<ogra>
i love the linking feature in LP :)
11:53
now they are connected
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12:03
<ogra>
vagrantc, <pitti_> ogra: because the debian bug is not against ftp.debian.org, thus it's not a removal bug
12:03
from #ubuntu-devel :)
12:04
<vagrantc>
heh.
12:04
well, at the time i figured i'd file the bug in a way to give the maintainer a chance to comment, and figure out how to do it properly later :)
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12:06
<paavum>
Umm can you guys help me get a local bluetooth device working?
12:07* vagrantc will play with sdm later too
12:07
<ogra>
vagrantc, its gone :)
12:07
at least from ubuntu
12:09
<blinky_ghost>
ogra, I can't edit the wiki says I don't have permission
12:09
<ogra>
you need to create a user accuont i guess
12:10
<blinky_ghost>
done that, but it says i can't edit webhome
12:10
<ogra>
webhome sounds like the startpage
12:10
<paavum>
Umm can you guys help me get a local bluetooth device working?
12:12
<newsflash>
Hi! I've just set up my ltsp server, but can't get x to work on the client. My /home/thinclient/.xsession-errors says Gtk-WARNING **: cannot open display: any ideas?
12:12
<ogra>
blinky_ghost, try that one http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/edit/Ltsp/Ltsp5Autologin
12:13
newsflash, ltsp5 ?
12:13
or 4.2
12:13
<newsflash>
4.2
12:13
<blinky_ghost>
ogra, Topic is locked by another user
12:13
<ogra>
hmm, with 4.2 you must have a DISPLAY at the point where you log in ...
12:14
<blinky_ghost>
must log off
12:14
:)
12:14
<ogra>
blinky_ghost, oh, thats me i was trying the link ...
12:14
should be fine now
12:14
(i canceled)
12:15
newsflash, thats pretty weird ... how did you get to the point where *anything* writes to .xsession-errors without having DISPLAY set ... are you sure thats from the current login attempt ?
12:16
<newsflash>
yeah, I removed everything else from the file and tried to log in
12:16
<ogra>
but you get a GDM screen on the client ?
12:17
<newsflash>
yeah, I get the login screen, but when I enter username and password I get a black screen and then it goes back to prompting for username
12:17
<ogra>
and you are 100% sure thats ltsp 4.2 ???
12:17
sounds very much like ltsp5
12:18
<newsflash>
I thought I was :-) How would I check that?
12:18
<ogra>
i think 4.2 has /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/version or so ...
12:18
or ltsp_version
12:19
<blinky_ghost>
ogra, ok, done
12:19
<ogra>
ltsp5 should have /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/ltsp_chroot
12:19
<BadMagic>
hey all
12:19
<ogra>
blinky_ghost, thanks a lot in the name of upcoming users :)
12:21
<newsflash>
hmm. mine dosen't seem to have either :-)
12:22
<ogra>
well do you have /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/init.d/ltsp-client-setup ? thats a clear ltsp5 file
12:22
(and your client wouldnt boot without it in ltsp5)
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12:22
<ogra>
not sure when we added /etc/ltsp_chroot ...
12:23
<newsflash>
I do in fact have /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/init.d/ltsp-client-setup
12:23
<ogra>
aha, thats ltsp5
12:23
<newsflash>
ok, sorry for the confusion
12:23
<ogra>
so make sure your ssh server supports X11Forwarding
12:23
ltsp5 uses ssh insetad of unsafe XDMCP forwarding
12:24
<newsflash>
ok, it seems like openssh is installed
12:24
<BadMagic>
anyone else using the diskless workstation's ltsp term-150? I can't remember for the life of me what the key stroke is to get into the bios....
12:24
<ogra>
BadMagic, i got it here but have not touched the BIOS since a year or so ... same prob :)
12:25
jammcq would know ...
12:25* BadMagic looking up docs on disklessworkstation site....
12:25
<ogra>
but he's still travelling i guess
12:25
newsflash, make sure your sshd_config file has: "X11Forwarding yes"
12:27
<newsflash>
yep, it does
12:29
<ogra>
ad if you try: ssh -X thinclient@<serverip> xterm
12:29
from a different workstation ...
12:29
does that work ?
12:30
<IRCzito>
ogra I'm no so god in englhis, but if I understand, Scot say to me subscribers on lts-dev list, but on ltsp page i only see Ltsp-discuss.
12:32
<ogra>
ltsp-developer@lists.sourceforge.net i guess
12:32
<IRCzito>
thanks :D
12:32
<ogra>
should be on SF
12:32
<paavum>
Uhhh can anybody tell me how to add Bluetooth support to the ltsp kernel?
12:32
seems like it does not have
12:32
:$
12:32
I am using the debian tarball
12:32
<ogra>
paavum, the ubuntu kernel has the modules by default
12:33
but we dont install the userspace tools
12:33
<paavum>
ogra... yes but then local apps wont work :(
12:33
<ogra>
bluez-blah
12:33
dunno the names ...
12:34
paavum, ??
12:34
<paavum>
ogra ... thats why I downloaded the debian one :P
12:34
<ogra>
the tarballs are identical ...
12:34
<paavum>
couldn't even get the package manager to work :(
12:34
<ogra>
only the packages differ and the ubuntu one is a bit advanced (localdev by default, alsa sound) because debian had a long freeze phase
12:35
i.e. the debian one should be identical to the edgy tarball ...
12:37
<paavum>
ogra... the other thing is
12:37
when I ssh to my thin client
12:38
I cant get apt working
12:38
I can get it working with chroot
12:38
but not when I ssh to the client
12:38
<ogra>
indeed you cant
12:38
<paavum>
y?
12:38
<ogra>
your / is readonly
12:39
<paavum>
d'oh!
12:39
<ogra>
also any changes you would make would be lost on reboot
12:39
you *need* to make your changes in the chroot
12:39
<paavum>
ok so if I do chroot /ltsp
12:40
and then I run dmesg
12:40
<ogra>
you can apt-get what you like
12:40
dmesg wont give you anything intresting there
12:40
i.e. only the servers desg output
12:41
Üdmesg
12:41
ga
12:41
h
12:41
*dmesg
12:41
<paavum>
ok... so ... I come back to my initial Q... can you help me get bluetooth running on my thin client plz?
12:41
<ogra>
well, you need the kernel modules
12:41
make sure they are loaded ...
12:41
<paavum>
what am I looking for>
12:41
?
12:42
<ogra>
and install the userspace tools bluez-*
12:42
no idea
12:42
i have no bluetooh devices ...
12:42
<paavum>
cuz I read I had to patch the kernel
12:42
<ogra>
and even if i had any i wouldnt have to care, i know it works out of the box in ubuntu
12:43
<paavum>
:/
12:43
ok lemme try the ubuntu one
12:44
<ogra>
take the feisty one ... and install the bluez-* packages in the chroot after installing
12:44
s/installing/unpacking/
12:45
not sure if you need to add anything to /etc/modules in the chroot, usually udev should take care and not bother you with such stuff
12:45
<paavum>
I have the ubuntu 6.10
12:45
i think thats edgy, right?
12:45
<ogra>
yes
12:45SBNet has quit IRC
12:45
<ogra>
i'd take feisty
12:45
<paavum>
ok
12:45
<ogra>
especially if you care about sounds support
12:45
*sound
12:45
<paavum>
ok
12:46
<ogra>
feisty uses the new alsa emulation .... so apps are more happy :)
12:46
<paavum>
ogra... is there any support for microphones yet?
12:47
so I can run a softphone on the server?
12:47
<ogra>
technically yes ... but not implemented in any automatic way
12:47
that will be in the october release
12:47tiagovaz has joined #ltsp
12:47
<paavum>
can a script be made to add that kind of support?
12:48
<ogra>
you need to fiddle with pulseaudio on the client side and set up the alsa emulation on the server to read from the pulse device
12:48
<blinky_ghost>
vagrantc, I'm not having autologin success with sdm, if I disable autologin, it asks for a passwd then kills the session
12:48
<ogra>
there is no automatic setup yet for the input side of things
12:49
blinky_ghost, i suspect you need to enable passwordless logins on the shh server
12:49
<paavum>
ogra ... I'm trying to get a BT headset working for a softphone... would it be too hard to get it set up with ur help?
12:50
<blinky_ghost>
ogra, but it doesn't work autologin disabled either
12:50
<paavum>
(feisty 20% done)
12:50
<ogra>
given that i'm just preparing for a release and am very busy i'd suggest to wait until next week if you want more help from my side :)
12:51
roughtly a pulseaudio howto should help you
12:51
<blinky_ghost>
ogra, is there any hack that allows autologin with ldm?
12:51
<ogra>
blinky_ghost, not yet
12:51
we'll work out something at the ubuntu developer summit in sevilla next month
12:51
so it should be ready for october
12:58Matong has joined #ltsp
12:58
<newsflash>
finally found my laptop... got an xterm xt error: can't open display xterm: Display is not set. When entering ssh -X thinclient@<serverip> xterm
12:58
<ogra>
so fix your ssh server setup :)
13:00
<newsflash>
ok, so the error is in my ssh server config?
13:00
<ogra>
right
13:00
if the command you just tried works all is fine and ltsp will work as well
13:03paavum has quit IRC
13:05
<newsflash>
ok, thanks I'll do some research of what my ssh config should look like then
13:06
<tiagovaz>
newsflash, maybe "X11Forwarding yes" ?
13:07
<newsflash>
I checked that
13:07
<ogra>
was it set ?
13:07
<newsflash>
yes
13:08
<tiagovaz>
:\
13:08
<ogra>
weird ...
13:08
what distro is that ?
13:09
<tiagovaz>
newsflash, I'm not sure if you need to reload the server...
13:09
<newsflash>
ubuntu 6.06
13:09
<ogra>
he server ?
13:09
the
13:09
<newsflash>
no
13:09
<tiagovaz>
sshd
13:09
<ogra>
whats the server for a distro ?
13:11
<newsflash>
I guess it's just regulat Ubuntu 6.06 LTS dapper
13:12
*regular
13:12kwaping has joined #ltsp
13:13
<kwaping>
is there any documentation regarding quoting of parameter values in lts.conf?
13:13
<ogra>
well, on dapper it should work out of the box with the default sshd setup ...
13:16
<tiagovaz>
newsflash, which value do you see in $DISPLAY?
13:16
<newsflash>
umh.. where?
13:17
<ogra>
drop the xtrem from the test command and you get a terminal login ... then run "echo $DISPLAY" there
13:17
*xterm
13:19
<blinky_ghost>
kwaping, check this file /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/share/doc/ltsp-client/examples/lts-parameters.txt.gz
13:20
<kwaping>
thanks blinky_ghost
13:20
<newsflash>
I didn't get anything
13:20
<ogra>
newsflash, no login prompt asking for your password ?
13:21
<newsflash>
well, I logged in allright, but when I ran echo $DISPLAY all I got was a blank line
13:21
<ogra>
so DISPLAY isnt set
13:22
<kwaping>
that file doesn't exist on my system (sysadmin must have done some trimming), is it online anywhere?
13:22
<ogra>
thats very weird ...
13:22
kwaping, that file is an ltsp5 file ... you probably use 4.2
13:22
for that look on wiki.ltsp.org
13:22
<kwaping>
ah ok, thanks... how do I confirm which version I'm using?
13:23
also, I'm familiar with http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LtsConf but that doesn't have any information regarding parameter value quote rules
13:26
<cliebow_>
if ypu look at /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/version..
13:26knix_ has quit IRC
13:27
<kwaping>
great thanks, it's 4.2 update 3
13:27
<ltsppbot>
"kwaping" pasted "this is the conf I'm trying to use, with no luck" (26 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/102
13:28
<ogra>
looks ok to me n a first look
13:28nicoAMG has quit IRC
13:28
<ogra>
whats not working =
13:28
?
13:29
<kwaping>
the client complains about a lot of things and won't ever make it to the end of the boot process
13:29
I wish I could paste it but I can't :(
13:29
but basically, if that looks okay to you, I might have to start exploring other areas besides the quoting
13:30
<ogra>
is the client the ollie test one ?
13:30
<kwaping>
what I'm doing is intercepting the request for lts.conf and making a call to a perl script, which queries a daemon on another server for config params stored in a database
13:30
<ogra>
or a different one ?
13:30
<kwaping>
yes Ollie Test
13:30
<ogra>
wat happens if you comment that entry ?
13:31
<kwaping>
the remote daemon script builds the lts.conf contents on the fly and delivers them to the client,w hich stores it inside /tmp/lts.conf
13:31
<ogra>
uh
13:31
<kwaping>
unfortunately, I can't see what's really in /tmp/lts.conf because the boot process doesn't finish :(
13:32
<ogra>
whats the purpose of generatig it on the fly ?
13:32
<kwaping>
but that's the output from the client run locally on my box
13:32
<cliebow_>
kwaping: so yuo have tweaked screen.d/startx/starx
13:32
<kwaping>
so non-technical people can add and remove devices via a web interface (warehouse workers)
13:33
cliebow_: not sure what the sysadmin has done, but I personally didn't
13:33
<ogra>
sounds like you were better off with ltsp5 ... which doesnt need lts.conf
13:33
it only uses it to override autodetected values ...
13:33
<kwaping>
hmm interesting... is the upgrade a painless one?
13:33greg_g has joined #ltsp
13:34
<kwaping>
oh wow, so someone could just plug in a device, say a usb printer, and reboot to have it autodetected?
13:34
<ogra>
thats how it works in ubuntus tsp5 ... not sure about debians
13:34* kwaping makes a note to read up on ltsp5
13:34
<ogra>
*ltsp5
13:35
but there is no upgrade path ... ltsp5 is a new implementation and totally different to 4.x
13:35
<kwaping>
if the upgrade is painless, I might be able to make a case for it
13:35
but this stuff is mission-critical and can't afford hardly any downtime
13:35
well thank you for the pointer, I'll definitely explore that
13:35
<ogra>
depending on your distro ... you either can use ltsp-build-client (ubuntu and debian) or use one of the tarballs from the wiki
13:36
just backup the old /opt/ltsp dir and unpack the tarball ... if it doesnt make you happy, revert it :)
13:36* kwaping is nervous
13:36
<kwaping>
I'll research it :)
13:37blinky_ghost has quit IRC
13:38
<cliebow_>
kwaping: i have like six different chroot systems on my server..
13:39
<kwaping>
I'm going to try removing the mac-specific config first, just to be sure
13:39
<tiagovaz>
newsflash, should see something like "localhost:xx.x"
13:40
<newsflash>
in response to echo $display ?
13:41
<ogra>
yes
13:41vanya has quit IRC
13:41
<ogra>
but its echo $DISPLAY
13:41
not $display
13:42
<newsflash>
right, well I tried $DISPLAY too...
13:46
so, this means that the x forwarding is not working?
13:47
<tiagovaz>
newsflash, I guess so
13:47
<ogra>
right
13:47
<tiagovaz>
newsflash, please show me this output: echo $SSH_CLIENT
13:47
<ogra>
in ubuntu the DISPLAY should usually be set to localhost:11 by default
13:48
<tiagovaz>
newsflash, it it is something like 127.0.0.1 40620 22, try to run: "DISPLAY=localhost:10.0 xterm"
13:49
<ogra>
and given that the default sshd_config enables X forwarding ... you probably should try: sudo apt-get install --reinstall openssh-server
13:49
to justget the defaults back
13:50
<tiagovaz>
newsflash, and give us this result: "grep X /etc/ssh/sshd_config"
13:51
newsflash, you should see:
13:51
X11Forwarding yes
13:51
X11DisplayOffset 10
13:51
<ogra>
right
13:52newsflash has quit IRC
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13:52
<tiagovaz>
Guaraldo, hey
13:53
Guaraldo, have you solved your USB problem?
13:53oifind has quit IRC
13:55
<kwaping>
no luck commenting out the local config, but at least I have some error messages for you now
13:56newsflash has joined #ltsp
13:56
<Guaraldo>
tiagovaz: Yep...
13:56
<tiagovaz>
Guaraldo, :) then help me later
13:56
<Guaraldo>
tiagovaz: if u prefer talk in portuguese, lets go to #ltsp-br
13:57
<newsflash>
umh.. sorry, my router shut down on me. Someone wanted me to run echo echo $ssh client or something like that?
13:57
<tiagovaz>
Guaraldo, ok, new channel for me
13:58
newsflash, it it is something like 127.0.0.1 40620 22, try to run: "DISPLAY=localhost:10.0 xterm"
13:58
newsflash, and give us this result: "grep X /etc/ssh/sshd_config"
13:58
<Guaraldo>
tiagovaz: yeah, pretty new... was made by Scotty during FISL8
13:58
<tiagovaz>
you should see:
13:58
<tiagovaz> X11Forwarding yes
13:58
<tiagovaz> X11DisplayOffset 10
13:58
Guaraldo, :)
13:59
<ltsppbot>
"kwaping" pasted "retyping of some error messages from boot" (22 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/103
14:01
<ogra>
looks like your chroot is quite broken ... but i may be wrong ... i'm only doing ltsp5
14:02
<kwaping>
hmm
14:02
we're using a read-only NFS mount as our filesystem (/tmp is writable)
14:03
<newsflash>
OK, when I ran DISPLAY=localhost:10.0 xterm I got xterm Xt error: Can't open display: localhost:10.0, and X11 Forwaring yes X11DisplayOffset 10 both showed up
14:04
<ogra>
kwaping, thats fine
14:04
i rather mean the contents ...
14:04
looks like it doesnt find the right sound module and as if your screen scripts are missing completely
14:05
but as i said, i may be wrong here, i'm not to good in the old version ...
14:06
just setting DISPLAY=localhost:10.0 wont give you the sshd proxing ...
14:06
*proxying
14:06
its an ssh thing you cant solve by just setting an environment variable
14:06
<tiagovaz>
hmmm right
14:07
<kwaping>
hmm
14:07
well thanks for your help ogra, I'll continue with my research of ltsp5
14:07kwaping has quit IRC
14:08
<ogra>
oki ... feel free to ask here if you have questions
14:08
there he goes ...
14:10
<tiagovaz>
newsflash, sorry, I can't understand why your ssh client has not set the display :(
14:10
<ogra>
me neither ....
14:11
can you pastebin your whole sshd_config file ?
14:11
<newsflash>
will do
14:11jammcq has joined #ltsp
14:11
<ogra>
jammcq, !!
14:12
<jammcq>
hey ogra
14:12
finally made it home from Brazil
14:12
<ogra>
finally a familiar IP on your nnme again
14:12
:)
14:12
*name
14:12
<tiagovaz>
jammcq, no problem with airports in Brazil?
14:13
<jammcq>
tiagovaz: Sao Paulo was VERY crowded
14:13
<ogra>
jammcq, i'm heavily fighting with mdz, he's not happy about the idea of an ubuntu-thin-client-server.iso
14:13
<jammcq>
but we got through without too much trouble
14:13
<tiagovaz>
jammcq, ugh, I see
14:13
<ogra>
but he said i should spec it at least for UDS ...
14:14
so think about some good reasons why we should have such an iso :)
14:14
to convince him
14:14
<jammcq>
ogra: I dunno what the ubuntu-thin-client-server.iso is
14:14
<ogra>
jammcq, my pan is to drop the first edubuntu CD and make it a plain ubuntu think client server install ... then move all edubuntu parts to the second CD
14:14
*plan
14:15
s/think/thin/
14:15
that CD could then have a menu like:
14:15
1. install a thin client server
14:15
2. install a thin client kiosk
14:15
<ltsppbot>
"newsflash" pasted "sshd_config" (77 lines) at http://pastebot.ltsp.org/104
14:15klausade has joined #ltsp
14:15
<ogra>
3. install a fat client server
14:16
<newsflash>
http://pastebot.ltsp.org/104
14:16
<ogra>
4. install a thin client/asterisk callcenter
14:16
etc etc
14:16* jammcq wonders why newsflash is pasting things here
14:16
<tiagovaz>
ogra, stratus is doing something very similar for Sacix project, do you know?
14:17
<ogra>
tiagovaz, nope, i havent talkes do stratus since ages
14:17
<tiagovaz>
jammcq, he has some problem with his sshd server
14:17
<ogra>
my point is that i want to get rid of the edubuntu CD and make edubuntu be an addon product only
14:17
in favor of having an officially commercially supported ubuntu CD
14:18
<jammcq>
ogra: is edubuntu not commerically supported ?
14:18
<ogra>
jammcq, it is, indeed
14:18
ltsp is as well
14:18
but i'd like to have a thin client dedicated CD :)
14:19
we have many many users that seem to take edubuntu because of the ease of the ltsp install and then wipe off the edubuntu-desktop stuff to get an ubuntu
14:19
since i think thats silly i'd opt for a ubuntu ltsp CD and have edubuntu as an addon
14:20
<tiagovaz>
ogra, http://sacix.org.br/browser/mirror/sacix/pacotes
14:21
<ogra>
thats intresting, why does he use my commit messages ? but rewrites the committer name ?
14:21
<tiagovaz>
ogra, tasks for different projects here in BR
14:21
ogra, uoh!
14:21
<ogra>
no, i mean thats my commits :) at leats it looks like :)
14:21
ah, no
14:22
its different he just recently added the ltsp-sound file ... we have that since two releases :)
14:22
but the commit msg looks identical :)
14:22
<tiagovaz>
ogra, ahahah
14:23
:)
14:23
<ogra>
he seems ot do a lot of development, i wonder why he doesnt commit that upstream
14:23
vagrantc, sbalneav and i would surely use it ...
14:24
do you know, did stratus and sbalneav meet at FISL ?
14:25
<jammcq>
who is stratus ?
14:25
<ogra>
debian developer
14:25
<jammcq>
we met with Otavio
14:25
<ogra>
he does as well do some stuff on debian edu iirc
14:26muh2000 has quit IRC
14:28
<tiagovaz>
ogra, stratus was not there
14:29
<ogra>
ah, sad
14:29Matong has quit IRC
14:30
<ogra>
hmm, hes also not in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-Sevilla/Attendees ...
14:30
<tiagovaz>
ogra, Sacix is a 'real' CDD, they should send patches to upstreams
14:30
<ogra>
right :)
14:30
especially for ltsp ;)
14:32
newsflash, KeepAlive should be TCPKeepAlive
14:32twinprism_ has joined #ltsp
14:33
<tiagovaz>
yes
14:33
<ogra>
apart from that the file looks good
14:33
<newsflash>
ok, thanks
14:34* ogra goes to watch some TV ... and relax ... 12h of work are enough for one day ...
14:36
<tiagovaz>
:)
14:41
<mhterres>
hey jammcq
14:41
<jammcq>
marcelo!! Hey
14:42
<mhterres>
how was your travel ?
14:42newsflash has quit IRC
14:47
<jammcq>
mhterres: it was uneventful, which is what you want, when flying :)
14:47
<mhterres>
yeah, off course :-)
14:47
heheeh
14:48
We think you could have problems, cause the NY airport was closed, isn't it ?
14:48
<jammcq>
that was monday morning
14:48
<mhterres>
yep
14:48
<jammcq>
everything was all cleared up this morning
14:48
<mhterres>
but we think that it could make some delays in the flights
14:50irule has joined #ltsp
14:50
<jammcq>
just minor delays this morning
14:50
nothing much to worry about
15:00jarhed has joined #ltsp
15:00
<jarhed>
hello
15:01
anyone out there?
15:03cliebow_ has quit IRC
15:05
<mhterres>
jammcq http://picasaweb.google.com/mhterres/Fisl8
15:06
<jarhed>
help
15:08
hello
15:08
<Guaraldo>
jammcq: Hi, Jim... How are you?
15:10
<jammcq>
Guaraldo: doing great, how about you?
15:10
<Guaraldo>
jammcq: Just fine...
15:10
<jarhed>
hello
15:11
<Guaraldo>
hello, jarhed...
15:11
<jarhed>
wondering if someone could help me
15:11
<Guaraldo>
jarhed: what's up???
15:11
<jarhed>
I have a problem installing LTSP on ubuntu
15:11
the ubuntu channel was little help
15:11
<Guaraldo>
jarhed: witch version?
15:11
<jarhed>
i installed the standalone version via apt
15:12
<Guaraldo>
jarhed: Ok... and whats happening???
15:12
<mhterres>
jarhed, what Ubuntu version ?
15:12
<jarhed>
after running ltsp-build-client script ... it terminates abnormally
15:12
edgy
15:13
last error is creating /dev/fd link ... already exists
15:14
<jammcq>
jarhed: sounds like your Ubuntu isn't up to date
15:14
that problem was fixed several weeks ago
15:15
<jarhed>
its a fresh install // apt-get upgrade and all
15:15
<jammcq>
what distro?
15:15
<jarhed>
ubuntu - edgy
15:16
although...is in the universe or multiverse repo??
15:17
<jammcq>
hmm, I saw that problem on Feisty. Dunno if there was/is a problem in edgy
15:17
<jarhed>
should I uncomment the universe/multi repo??
15:18
<jammcq>
no
15:18
that won't give you anything different
15:18
<jarhed>
ok.
15:18
<jammcq>
that only enables more packages. it doesn't change the version of the packages that you get
15:19
<jarhed>
does it work in fiesty?
15:19
for ubuntu
15:19
<jammcq>
yes
15:19
it's been fixed in feisty
15:19
<Guaraldo>
jarhed: aptitude update; aptitude upgrade
15:19
<jammcq>
I didn't know if it was a problem in edgy
15:20
could have been a completely different issue
15:20
<jarhed>
is aptitude different than apt?
15:20
cuz apt doesn't show any available.
15:21
when is fiesty official?
15:23
<Guaraldo>
jarhed: aptitude is a frontend made to use APT protocol. apt-get is a concept test of APT protocol...
15:30J45p3r_ has quit IRC
15:41paavum has joined #ltsp
15:41
<paavum>
Hello ")
15:41
:)
15:42
Gadi --> Sorry, my comp rebooted last time and I had to attend to a meeting :s...
15:42
Anyway, just downloaded the feisty tarball and installed it
15:43
however it seems like apt-get wont work :s
15:44tiagovaz has quit IRC
15:46
<paavum>
nah it was a resolv.conf issue
15:58
now I cant seem to login :s
15:58
I get the login screen
15:59
I enter the right user/pass and I get dumped right back to the login screen
16:00
I should be running /usr/bin/icewm... but nothing happens :s
16:01
Anybody?
16:05IRCzito has quit IRC
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16:10MaCaDe is now known as McDutchie
16:19Guaraldo has quit IRC
16:24
<paavum>
helloooo?
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17:09
<kwaping>
any ltsp5 experts available?
17:09* kwaping checks ogra's pulse
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17:14
<paavum>
he's dead
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17:20
<cliebow>
ogra has already doen a 14 hour day
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17:21
<cliebow>
jahred:for the hell of it..at a terminal dpkg -l|grep ltesp-server
17:21
ltsp-server
17:23
<jarhed>
cliebow: ii ltsp-server ii ltsp-server-standalone
17:23
<cliebow>
what version?
17:24
.124?
17:24
<jarhed>
yes
17:24
both
17:25
<cliebow>
sosmehow an error crept in there..dont know if i can find the correction
17:26
<jarhed>
it's the first time i tried with ubuntu // I may try the edubuntu version just to get it to work until fiesty
17:26
<cliebow>
have to g et the eother laptop
17:26
maybe best..since i am not much on ltsp4
17:26
maybe best..since i am not much on ltsp5..
17:27
<jarhed>
is this the recommended package to use? the ubuntu ltsp-standalone?
17:27
<cliebow>
it is..ltsp-server-st tandalone..feisty[s is far refined
17:28
<jarhed>
what i am reading ( which is called meukow)
17:28
when is fiesty official?
17:28
<cliebow>
edubuntu has the first production version of the muekow spec..(build a chroot from native binaries)
17:28
19th maybe..
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17:29
<jarhed>
would there be much difference from an install today?
17:30
<yhan>
Hi
17:30
<cliebow>
if using feisty.. lots of refinements
17:30
<yhan>
I know I got the answer yesterday, I've just lost mu buffer, but who ha experience with northtec products ?
17:31
<cliebow>
i do a llittle..
17:31
nohrtec
17:31
<jarhed>
which one should I download?
17:31
<cliebow>
enough to know it was prohibiyive to buy one at a time
17:32
<yhan>
that term looks intersting : http://www.norhtec.com/products/mcjr/index.html
17:32
<cliebow>
if it were me id get feisty
17:32
<yhan>
it's just $120
17:32
<cliebow>
ive been running it for amonth or more..on voth ppc and i386
17:32
<yhan>
how fast is it ?
17:32
<cliebow>
plus 30 for shipping..plus 30 to wire them the money
17:32
i dont know..never did order one
17:33
<yhan>
$30 for the money xfer ?
17:33
<cliebow>
it was from Maine
17:33
<yhan>
I'm in QC
17:34
<cliebow>
i have the paperweork at schol still..
17:34
<yhan>
but how usable is the terminal ?
17:34
<cliebow>
i think jjim and ron were looking at adding em to disklessworkstataions..then got bogged down with a bot time issue
17:35
<yhan>
the processor is only running at 200 mhz
17:35
<cliebow>
i did talk to someone using them...boot was acceptable in 4.2..like 40 seconds..
17:36
<yhan>
yeah but beyond the boot
17:36
usuability
17:36
<cliebow>
well ..i am not sure,.i was hoping to try them out..but school wouldny buy one and i couldnt buy one for myself
17:37
on a 100 meg network quite sure they would be fine
17:37
i use lots of 200 and 233 cpus
17:37
<yhan>
I have a couple of visara terms
17:37
<cliebow>
junk maiine state library gave up on...and first national bank..
17:37
<yhan>
those runs with a cyrix 233 mhz
17:38
and it's too slow
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17:41
<cliebow>
yhan:you need to talk to jammcq about them
17:44
<yhan>
actually I've an old pc PII-400, it's much faster
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<yhan>
thks I will
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17:53
<jjg>
hi, i'm taking a look at some hardware on disklessworkstations.com and am wanting to know if it's possible to have a thin client boot an image that it gets from a peripheral ( i.e., usb drive ) or something like a boot rom. problem is that I'm wanting to use the thin clients in a cyber cafe that runs over satellite, but the bandwidth is too expensive to boot over the sat link. any ideas?
17:55
<cliebow>
you nfs aand chatty x traffic will be a bandwidth problem wont it
17:55
<yhan>
jjg install a local server
17:56
<jjg>
cliebow : hmm, i think i am misunderstanding how it works ... i must have a terminalserver serving the apps?
17:56
yhan : i was thinking I might have to do that
17:56
<yhan>
jjg, and yiou manage hte server through ssh and the sat link
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17:58
<jjg>
is there such a thing where i can get a diskless computer that runs its apps locally? I should say that I'm wanting to use the diskless cmoputers because they are cheaper and more secure
18:00
looks like i still need NFS for running apps locally
18:03
do you guys thing that what I'm doing is misguided?
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18:05
<cliebow>
across the internet is not ltsp's forte
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18:07
<cliebow>
ltsp by def is getting an x session on a server...and a root filesystem via nfs
18:07
<jjg>
cliebow : all i need to do is run firefox locally. I'm seeing that this is possible, but it sill looks like i need a terminal server. I'm trying to avoid that. I wish I could flash a rom with my distro
18:07
cliebow : yah, i'm seeing that, now
18:07
<cliebow>
that can certainly be done..it is not ltsp..you need to think about homedirs
18:08
the besuty of ltsp is centralized management
18:08
put a new program on just thserver and all clients get it immediatley
18:08
<jjg>
i see
18:09
offhand, do you know of some hardware that will allow me to flash a rom with my distro?
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18:19
<yhan>
jjg a usb key works nicely
18:19
knoppix can be installed easily on a usb key
18:21
<jjg>
yhan ... that's a thought ... these shops are unattended, so i guess i could put the key in ... and put an enclosure around the hardware
18:21
i was just looking at these $199.00 New Internet Computers
18:21
i don't they are made anymore
18:22
any recommendations on some good cheap hardware?
18:24
<yhan>
jjg I'm in the same point as you are
18:24
I'm looking for cheap hardware too
18:24
<jjg>
the cheapest i've found is $280
18:24
on disklessworkstations.com
18:25
<yhan>
http://www.norhtec.com/products/mcjr/index.html
18:26
https://www.solarpc.com/catalog/
18:26
<jjg>
this looks good
18:27
i remember seeing these on linuxdevices.com
18:27
do you know anyone that has used these?
18:34
I just ordered one
18:37
too bad you can only get an eval or buy in batches of 1000 or more :O(
18:58
<yhan>
some folks told me the via based machines works great
18:58
like solarpc machines
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19:55
<jammcq>
hello all
19:55
<cliebow>
jammcq1!!!!
19:57
<jammcq>
hey Mr. Chuck
20:01
<cliebow>
safe and sound i see!!
20:01
the old timers on the island used to call me that ..gives me goosebumps
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20:04
<cliebow>
how did the eway 2300 clients come out..still booting slow?
20:05
<jammcq>
yeah
20:05
I won't get a chance to work on that again, prolly until we get to Spain in May
20:05
<cliebow>
their motherboards compare to the nohrtec?
20:05
<jammcq>
same thing
20:05
nohrtec re-brands the e2300
20:06
<cliebow>
so they make decent clients then...in edubvuntu?
20:06
<jammcq>
well, they will, hopefully when we get the performance issue resolved
20:06
<cliebow>
there have been sosme questionsa bout them..will ron pick em up?
20:07
<jammcq>
yeah, we've got 1,000 on order
20:07
so that performance issue is rather important to us
20:07
we don't want people returning them for a refund
20:07
<cliebow>
that is good news then..ill try to pas that oin..though i seem to stick foot in mouth trying to hrlp these days
20:19
yhan:did you catch that?
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22:31
<phls>
hi
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22:42
<phls>
I installed LTSP 4.2 and Etch on P4 3.0Ghz HT 2Gb RAM. I put just 1 client
22:42
mas gnome or qvwm is too slow
22:42
but gnome or qvwm is too slow
22:43
any software like firefox or any menu is too slow
22:43
do you know what is happing??
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